**miniDSP DDRC-88A Official Thread**8-channel AI/AO Dirac Live in a box - Page 354 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10591 of 16788 Old 05-31-2016, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I am starting to believe it is vaporware.
I sure hope not, minidsp doesn't have a history of that so I'm holding out hope.
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post #10592 of 16788 Old 05-31-2016, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
I think it would be helpful for running multiple subs/postitions. I could run Dirac while having the up front subs connected, then run it again with the nearfield sub connected. I could then check the delay set by Dirac for each and then match it up manually with the minidsp for the nearfield sub.

I haven't read your setup guide yet using the 2x4 (I plan to when I get a 88A) and I'm sure it's plenty effective. I just like having options and I like messing/tweaking things.
That is actually a good answer. Determining delays electronically is more accurate than using the tape measure, IMO. In my guide, I recommend using a one-point Audyssey calibration to reveal the distances for multiple subs. Works like a charm. Do you have an AVR with Audyssey?
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post #10593 of 16788 Old 05-31-2016, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
That is actually a good answer. Determining delays electronically is more accurate than using the tape measure, IMO. In my guide, I recommend using a one-point Audyssey calibration to reveal the distances for multiple subs. Works like a charm. Do you have an AVR with Audyssey?

No, I have a Pioneer Elite so I have MCACC.

I use it for the distances only (auto EQ sounds terrible), so sounds like I'd be good to go using your guide.
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post #10594 of 16788 Old 06-01-2016, 05:34 PM
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I already have this setup. From 88-a, the output goes to 2x4 minidsp where I'm setting the delays appropriately. What I was asking was to control the frequency response and not delay. In other words, I wanted
Sub1: to start from where ever it does and ends however long it goes
Sub2: start from 30 Hz and ends however long it goes.

But I think all this will complicate things.
You want your Sub1 to run full range, but you want your Sub2 to only work on frequencies 30hz and up?

I think what you are saying is that you don't know how to manually enter a high-pass filter in your 2x4 for your 2nd sub? That's all you need to do to meet your requirements. It's pretty well explained in the manual, as I recall. Is that what the problem is? If so, I could probably walk you through it...
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post #10595 of 16788 Old 06-01-2016, 07:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
You want your Sub1 to run full range, but you want your Sub2 to only work on frequencies 30hz and up?

I think what you are saying is that you don't know how to manually enter a high-pass filter in your 2x4 for your 2nd sub? That's all you need to do to meet your requirements. It's pretty well explained in the manual, as I recall. Is that what the problem is? If so, I could probably walk you through it...
You got it Kevin. That's exactly what I want to try. One sub is good in low frequency but sub2 is not and I wanted to see how the response will look if I restrict sub 2.
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post #10596 of 16788 Old 06-01-2016, 07:44 PM
 
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If you were able to see the trims and delays set by Dirac, how would that benefit you? It is likely that they would be read-only, so you couldn't make any changes.
From time to time, when the final result of Dirac calibration is different, I always wonder what changed !!!! Having all the info can help us compare. I don't think that if once can change a value, only then its beneficial. The more info you have, the better it is.
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post #10597 of 16788 Old 06-01-2016, 07:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I don't know if I am following what happened. You were running a new Dirac calibration? What for? And while running this calibration, the level of the center relative to the other speakers was different? Why would it be different this run--what changed? You mentioned the YPAO 1-position calibration. If you reset the trims and delays set by YPAO, then this would have nothing to do with the center channel level being lower.

The real issue is why is the center channel output lower than the other speakers? Regardless of the level you selected for the center channel, Dirac should set all the output levels the same. Something is wrong with your calibration, and I suggest re-doing it. And I still don't understand why you keep changing things.
The reason I have to re-calibrate is because the room is still going through the changes. I wasn't done. I finally installed bass traps in the back corner of rooms. So I had to re-calibrate again.

I did it again yesterday and the center came back to live. Center, Left, Right are physically pretty much are at equal distance from MLP but then I'm setting level, Center comes a little higher from -12 when LR at exactly at -12. Before, I set the levels (main gain knob) so that LR are exactly at -12 and after calibration center wasn't as loud as I thought it should be. Then Yesterday I recalibrated by making sure that center is precisely at -12 (while LR were a little below) and now center is back to normal. Don't know what this means but to me it seems like that if one has to choose one channel to be precisely at -12, it should be Center. I know its not advised to use individual level knob but I wonder if I should try that to make sure all speakers are exactly at -12 to how that goes.

Do all your speakers end up exactly at -12?
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post #10598 of 16788 Old 06-01-2016, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

Do all your speakers end up exactly at -12?
Yes, they are all pretty close to -12. No significant difference. But more important, the output level after calibration is the same for all speakers when measuring the AVR test tones using the REW SPL meter. IMO, that is an important function of the calibration.
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post #10599 of 16788 Old 06-02-2016, 05:24 AM
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I know its not advised to use individual level knob but I wonder if I should try that to make sure all speakers are exactly at -12 to how that goes.
In my experience, it doesn't matter.

My surround speakers a less efficient than my front sound-stage, and they are also powered by a less powerful amp. So, in general they are slightly less loud than the others. And one of them is somewhat further away than the others so it measures the lowest in volume.

I've done calibrations both ways.

a) Leave all individual sliders at max. Get be lowest level speaker to read within the "green" zone, but below -12db. This leaves room for the other speakers to be in the "green" zone, but above -12db.

b) Get the lowest level speaker to read -12 db, use individual sliders to lower the volume of all other speakers to read exactly -12db.

In both cases, when all is said and done, the 88a does the right thing, and all speakers end up producing the same volume when measured with a meter. Simply stated, it seems to use your individual level adjustments as well as the measured levels when it comes up with the resulting per-channel trim levels. This shouldn't be a surprise, as it's the only way to do it correctly.

-Kevin
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post #10600 of 16788 Old 06-02-2016, 12:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Yes, they are all pretty close to -12. No significant difference. But more important, the output level after calibration is the same for all speakers when measuring the AVR test tones using the REW SPL meter. IMO, that is an important function of the calibration.
I check the level every time I calibrate. I have to because of my ceiling speakers. After Dirac, I run one point calibration with YPAO to set the distance properly. Then reset all Dirac speakers levels to 0 and match ceiling speakers level with Dirac speakers.

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In my experience, it doesn't matter.

My surround speakers a less efficient than my front sound-stage, and they are also powered by a less powerful amp. So, in general they are slightly less loud than the others. And one of them is somewhat further away than the others so it measures the lowest in volume.

I've done calibrations both ways.

a) Leave all individual sliders at max. Get be lowest level speaker to read within the "green" zone, but below -12db. This leaves room for the other speakers to be in the "green" zone, but above -12db.

b) Get the lowest level speaker to read -12 db, use individual sliders to lower the volume of all other speakers to read exactly -12db.

In both cases, when all is said and done, the 88a does the right thing, and all speakers end up producing the same volume when measured with a meter. Simply stated, it seems to use your individual level adjustments as well as the measured levels when it comes up with the resulting per-channel trim levels. This shouldn't be a surprise, as it's the only way to do it correctly.

-Kevin
Well that's good to know. I don't know then why was it here advocated to NOT touch individual channels. I think one should try to get all speakers at close as possible to -12 without using individual gain knobs. Then if any channel needs adjustment, do so with knob. I just don't know why my center wasn't as clear as it should have been. You know how Dirac makes your Center channel sounds as if its right there in front of your face. I'm a BIG fan of that about Dirac. I know exactly how it makes my center sound and it wasn't like that. That made me crank up the volume more. But this last calibration was just fine. So really don't know what changed during these two calibrations. I know that I didn't change anything in the room though. Oh well its a mystery now.
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post #10601 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 07:04 AM
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The DDRC-88BM is available on their site now.
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post #10602 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 07:07 AM
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The DDRC-88BM is available on their site now.
Call me new, but I thought this was a firmware upgrade. I didn't know it was a paid plugin. Either way, great news for those who are waiting for it. @carp - you are in business buddy.
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post #10603 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 07:09 AM
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Call me new, but I thought this was a firmware upgrade. I didn't know it was a paid plugin. Either way, great news for those who are waiting for it. @carp - you are in business buddy.
I hope someone comes up with a tutorial on how to work it with the 88drc
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post #10604 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 07:13 AM
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I hope someone comes up with a tutorial on how to work it with the 88drc
I am not a betting man; but, if I were, I would have money on @AustinJerry having this operational and tested by weeks end with a guide posted by next week's end. Jerry is a gem and a great asset to the community.
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post #10605 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 07:26 AM
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After looking at the 88BM plugin I think Minidsp may have priced it too high. Personally I was thinking this would sell for $30 max. At $99 I'm struggling with it.

Actually I'm struggling with the use case in general. All AVRs do Bass Management so not really a necessary feature there (and only valuable if you have <= 8 total speakers - worthless if running two units which is almost required for a multiple subwoofer setup).

According to the block diagram Dirac is still not able to optimize the crossover region for good mains/subs integration (like Audiolense XO or Acourate). That appears to still be a manual process.

In what scenario would you want to adjust EQ/Delays after Dirac correction? Other than subwoofers (which you are limited by channel count). Two units could work as long as you are not relying on the bass management functionality.

What am I missing?
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post #10606 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Call me new, but I thought this was a firmware upgrade. I didn't know it was a paid plugin. Either way, great news for those who are waiting for it. @carp - you are in business buddy.


Thanks!

Hmm... like you I thought this would be a free upgrade. 100 more.... ouch. I don't see anything saying that you can see what delays that Dirac has set. It should be interesting to see what people (especially Jerry) think of it.
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post #10607 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 09:31 AM
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Looks like they removed compressor/limiter that was there in the CES pictures/brochures.
I was hoping to use it to make a custom night mode.
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post #10608 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 10:05 AM
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Jerry......go! Ha ha

Seriously. I'm buying the plug in. My questions will be how best to integrate 7.3.4 on my two 88a. I'm guessing LCR plus subs on one and surrounds/atmos on second.....

But I'll defer to the expert before implementing.

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post #10609 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
In what scenario would you want to adjust EQ/Delays after Dirac correction?
Sub/sat blending. Harman's ARCOS system does that after the room correction step, using PEQ filters (left over from the room correction step) and all-pass filters for delay.

Sanjay
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post #10610 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 01:29 PM
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I am not a betting man; but, if I were, I would have money on @AustinJerry having this operational and tested by weeks end with a guide posted by next week's end. Jerry is a gem and a great asset to the community.
I was a beta tester for the 88A-BM. The upgrade consists of both a firmware update for the 88A hardware, and a new DDRC-88ABM Utility program that provides the functionality seen in the screenshots in the announcement. The upgrade was straight-forward, with the excellent documentation we have come to expect from Mini-DSP. Be advised that it will require that the 88A cover be removed to access and move an internal cable, so be ready to remove it from the rack.

Several immediate features that I find very useful are the fact that Dirac trims and delays are now revealed to the user, although they remain read-only. The second feature is the ability to toggle individual channels off and on. For example, if you were interested in hearing what is happening in a set of speakers, e.g. the Atmos overheads, you can isolate those speakers without having to disconnect speaker cables.

Of course, there are many more new features that must be explored. However, I did not have a chance to do much of this testing yet. I think it will be interesting over the next couple of weeks or months to hear of creative ways to use the new features.

Initially, I thought I might be able to eliminate the MiniDSP 2x4 that is being used to consolidate the signals from my four subs. Unfortunately, I don't see how this would be possible, unless I am missing something.

Is the upgrade worth $100? First of all, I think $100 is a fair price for significant improvements in the 88A's functionality. It is not often that we see a software/firmware update that offers so much. Whether the enhanced features are worth $100 to a specific owner, only he can make that decision. I know I wouldn't hesitate.
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post #10611 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Sub/sat blending. Harman's ARCOS system does that after the room correction step, using PEQ filters (left over from the room correction step) and all-pass filters for delay.
Sanjay, I am hoping that you will have suggestions regarding how the new capabilities can be used. I am kind of at a point where I am saying, "OK, this is nice. Now what to do with it?"
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post #10612 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 01:36 PM
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Jerry......go! Ha ha

Seriously. I'm buying the plug in. My questions will be how best to integrate 7.3.4 on my two 88a. I'm guessing LCR plus subs on one and surrounds/atmos on second.....

But I'll defer to the expert before implementing.
Sounds like you have the right number of channels to be able to use the 88A for bass management. IOW, to implement bass management, you need an 88A input for each sub.

In my case, with a single 88A and a 7.1 configuration with four subs, I don't have enough inputs. And I am unlikely to purchase a second 88A to replace a perfectly functional 2x4, unless we learn that there might be advantages to do so.
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post #10613 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 02:07 PM
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The time delay cannot be manually set like the minidsp 2x4? I have extra channels, so I was thinking I could do away with the minidsp 2x4 but without that function the subs cannot be delay tweaked. Does this new plugin automate that process and therefore manual adjustment is not needed? I am trying to figure out how I would use this. I also assume each plugin is per unit right? It would be great if the plugin worked for both units.
Yes, each channel has a configurable time delay, and the amount of delay that can be added is significantly higher than in the 2x4, so that is good. There is also a polarity switch for each channel. So, like I said, if you have enough spare channels to allocate one channel for each sub, you should be able to duplicate the functionality of the 2x4. Not very many of us will have enough spare channels to do this.

Perhaps you are confusing the Dirac delay with the configurable delay, which would normally be set prior to the Dirac calibration as part of the configuration for multiple subs.
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post #10614 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 02:12 PM
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Yes, each channel has a configurable time delay, and the amount of delay that can be added is significantly higher than in the 2x4, so that is good. There is also a polarity switch for each channel. So, like I said, if you have enough spare channels to allocate one channel for each sub, you should be able to duplicate the functionality of the 2x4. Not very many of us will have enough spare channels to do this.
I will take the plunge since I haven't gone live with my two 88A units yet. My 3rd sub and room treatments should arrive via freight next week. I was waiting on everything to come in first. I also moved my rack to outside the theater room. I didn't want to wire the 88a's until everything was in its final resting place. If I can remove an additional piece of equipment from the setup i.e. 2x4, I am all for it.

I found the answer on the plugin with multiple units - per minidsp forum.

"If I buy more than one board, do I need to buy the plugin more than once?"

No. There is only a one-time charge for our plugins so once purchased, you can use them on multiple hardware units that you have purchased.



Edit - It is official - I ordered the plugin.
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post #10615 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 02:32 PM
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After looking at the 88BM plugin I think Minidsp may have priced it too high. Personally I was thinking this would sell for $30 max. At $99 I'm struggling with it.
From what I can see it looks like the 88BM plugin adds most of the functionality of the 10x10HD (except the digital I/O and compressor) to the 88A. So $100 doesn't seem like a bad deal to me. I thought the upgrade (pure, uninformed speculation) would be $200 or $250, actually.

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Actually I'm struggling with the use case in general. All AVRs do Bass Management so not really a necessary feature there (and only valuable if you have <= 8 total speakers - worthless if running two units which is almost required for a multiple subwoofer setup).
Here are two, off the top of my head.

First, active mains. Use the crossover section to get the slopes, phase, and nearfield voicing right. Then run Dirac. All in one box.

Second, multisubs. Ditch the bass management in the pre-pro: have it send a full-range signal to LCR and just the LFE channel on the subs. Then you can blend LCR and five subs however makes sense in your room. Most AVRs don't give you the same flexibility.

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In what scenario would you want to adjust EQ/Delays after Dirac correction?
People use "distance" (delay) on their AVRs/pre-pros all the time to fix the mains/subs splice.

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post #10616 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 02:38 PM
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From what I can see it looks like the 88BM plugin adds most of the functionality of the 10x10HD (except the digital I/O and compressor) to the 88A. So $100 doesn't seem like a bad deal to me. I thought the upgrade (pure, uninformed speculation) would be $200 or $250, actually.



Here are two, off the top of my head.

First, active mains. Use the crossover section to get the slopes, phase, and nearfield voicing right. Then run Dirac. All in one box.

Second, multisubs. Ditch the bass management in the pre-pro: have it send a full-range signal to LCR and just the LFE channel on the subs. Then you can blend LCR and five subs however makes sense in your room. Most AVRs don't give you the same flexibility.



People use "distance" (delay) on their AVRs/pre-pros all the time to fix the mains/subs splice.
Good info on the usage.

However, I am glad you don't work in the new product price development group at minidsp.
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post #10617 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Good questions. First of all, the number of break points has no bearing on anything. In my case, it made shaping the curve a little more precise.



My "ski-jump" extends from 70Hz-400Hz. the changes are steeper in the middle of the curve, and shallower at the ends, which makes it a little more difficult to see where it begins and ends. The important point is that the curve is centered exactly at 105dB, and is symmetric above and below that point. At some point (later), I will explain why. The shape of your original curve does IMO over-emphasize the mid-bass, which I have seen as resulting in a "tubby" sound. Of course, if you like tubby...



You are a lucky guy. I am attaching a link to a ready-made project file that already has the 8dB targets applied. All you need to do is download it and transfer it to the 88A.



8dB Bass Boost Project File



Here are the target text files.



And here is what the resulting L/R group looks like:









Looking for some feedback!

Hi Jerry, just tested your target files and it sounds great, much better midbass compared to what I've been able to get before. Thanks for your work.
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post #10618 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
According to the block diagram Dirac is still not able to optimize the crossover region for good mains/subs integration (like Audiolense XO or Acourate). That appears to still be a manual process.
Ah, that's too bad. When that happens I buy another 88A and go back to Dirac. Not worth it(to me) till then.
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post #10619 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
First, active mains. Use the crossover section to get the slopes, phase, and nearfield voicing right. Then run Dirac. All in one box.
Valid. I was thinking home theater, but you could always add on more 88A for more channels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
Second, multisubs. Ditch the bass management in the pre-pro: have it send a full-range signal to LCR and just the LFE channel on the subs. Then you can blend LCR and five subs however makes sense in your room. Most AVRs don't give you the same flexibility.
But what about the rest of the channels (rears, sides, overheads, etc)? Still relying on AVR bass management for those.


These features would be a lot more appealing in a single 16 channel unit as dual 8 channel units will not benefit from bass management / active crossovers in a 7.1.4 system with multiple subwoofers.
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post #10620 of 16788 Old 06-03-2016, 04:57 PM
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The 88BM plug in looks exactly like the nanoAVR plug in minus the Dirac gain/delay screen.

Link on how to use it:
https://www.minidsp.com/applications...ass-management
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My Home Theater/Video Gaming/HTPC/2 Channel rig (Mitsubishi, MartinLogan, Marantz, DIYMA, and others)

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