**miniDSP DDRC-88A Official Thread**8-channel AI/AO Dirac Live in a box - Page 355 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10621 of 16926 Old 06-03-2016, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by |Tch0rT| View Post
The 88BM plug in looks exactly like the nanoAVR plug in minus the Dirac gain/delay screen.

Link on how to use it:
https://www.minidsp.com/applications...ass-management
Thanks for the link. Reading material for this evening!
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post #10622 of 16926 Old 06-03-2016, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Sanjay, I am hoping that you will have suggestions regarding how the new capabilities can be used.
Sorry Jerry, hadn't really thought about it. Off the top of my head, the most obvious use of matrix switcher after the Dirac step would be for subwoofer optimization, where several outputs on the 88A are tied to a single Dirac channel. This way, each sub can have independent levels and delays (even PEQ) while Dirac only sees the interaction of all the subs combined.

But this can get expensive when you realize you've just used up half the output connections on your 88A unit, especially compared to a miniDSP 2x4 unit. But, if you're using a couple of 88As anyway, like for a 7.1.4 set-up, then you already have 4 spare outputs that can be used this way.

I'm not a DIY guy, but I'm guessing the matrix switcher before the Dirac step can be helpful when doing active crossovers for home made speakers, where one input (source) channel is tied to 2 or 3 Dirac channels (the opposite of what's described above). Each driver can have their response Dirac'd independently, after which all the drivers can be manually blended.

This is similar to what you already do with your subwoofer and speakers, where they are corrected separately by Dirac, but the crossover blend is done manually by you. Apply that approach to the woofer and tweeter of a 2-way DIY speaker. Again, consider the cost of each speaker using 2 or 3 output jacks on the 88A.
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I am kind of at a point where I am saying, "OK, this is nice. Now what to do with it?"
Nothing, especially if it is a solution looking for a problem that your set-up doesn't have. Smart of miniDSP to make it an option, like their other plug-ins, so that customers that don't need its functionality don't have to pay for it. Buy it if you need it. But don't try to need it just because it's there.



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post #10623 of 16926 Old 06-03-2016, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Sorry Jerry, hadn't really thought about it. Off the top of my head, the most obvious use of matrix switcher after the Dirac step would be for subwoofer optimization, where several outputs on the 88A are tied to a single Dirac channel. This way, each sub can have independent levels and delays (even PEQ) while Dirac only sees the interaction of all the subs combined.

But this can get expensive when you realize you've just used up half the output connections on your 88A unit, especially compared to a miniDSP 2x4 unit. But, if you're using a couple of 88As anyway, like for a 7.1.4 set-up, then you already have 4 spare outputs that can be used this way.

I'm not a DIY guy, but I'm guessing the matrix switcher before the Dirac step can be helpful when doing active crossovers for home made speakers, where one input (source) channel is tied to 2 or 3 Dirac channels (the opposite of what's described above). Each driver can have their response Dirac'd independently, after which all the drivers can be manually blended.

This is similar to what you already do with your subwoofer and speakers, where they are corrected separately by Dirac, but the crossover blend is done manually by you. Apply that approach to the woofer and tweeter of a 2-way DIY speaker. Again, consider the cost of each speaker using 2 or 3 output jacks on the 88A. Nothing, especially if it is a solution looking for a problem that your set-up doesn't have. Smart of miniDSP to make it an option, like their other plug-ins, so that customers that don't need its functionality don't have to pay for it. Buy it if you need it. But don't try to need it just because it's there.

Everything you said makes perfect sense, Snajay. It will be interesting to hear how those with 2 88A's implement the bass management feature. In the meantime, I am content sitting on the sidelines watching everyone else get creative.
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post #10624 of 16926 Old 06-03-2016, 10:23 PM
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Here are the Dirac Trims and Delays reported by the 88A-BM Utility program:



I also ran a one-position Audyssey calibration to see what Audyssey calculates as the distances (Note that since the 88A is in the signal path, it contributes to approximately 18ms delay, which is why the distances are large. Actual distances are close to 9ft.):



I use the Audyssey measurements to fine-tune the positions of my speakers, with the aim of achieving as close to symmetry as possible. Audyssey reports that the objective has been met, i.e. the distances are all the same.

However, the Dirac delays are a bit difficult to interpret. The Dirac delay of 0ms for the left front speaker (Dirac 1) suggests that Dirac perceives this speaker as being the furthest speaker, and subsequent delays are offsets to the left front speaker. The right front is .04ms, pretty close to the same distance (well within the accuracy of the mic placement). However, the center channel (Dirac 4) shows .48ms, which suggests that the center is 6.5 inches closer to the MLP than the left front speaker. Yet Audyssey says the center is exactly the same distance as the left and right speakers. I cannot explain this peculiarity.
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post #10625 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 06:41 AM
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Is your center channel identical to your l/r speakers?

What distances does Audyssey detect with the 88a reset to defaults?
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post #10626 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I use the Audyssey measurements to fine-tune the positions of my speakers, with the aim of achieving as close to symmetry as possible.
I'd recommend to use the delay setting found by DL as they are spot on. You can easily verify delay with REW using a timing reference.
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post #10627 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 08:37 AM
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I spent the morning reading the bass management plugin manual. I would like to present my understanding to ensure it is correct. I plan to use the first 88A for L/C/R and subs 1-4. I would set L/C/R speakers to large in the AVR to send full range to the 88A. The 88A will then allow me to set the the xover on each speaker to my choosing. I think this may be a benefit since Audyssey limits each x-over settings to 20hz intervals i.e. 40hz, 60hz, 80hz, 100hz, or 120hz. Since the ultimate goal is to limit the amount of interference between the L/C/R and subs in the chest slam ranges of 40-60hz, this may be a huge benefit for those with towers that have lower hz capabilities. If I understand this correctly, I can now set x-overs at say 53hz instead of having to choose 40hz or 60hz. Am I correct in this understanding?

The routing matrix in the bass management will allow the LFE channel to be output to multiple channels . I can take the LFE channel input on channel 3 and route that to output channels 3, 5, 6, and 7. HPF, LPF, delay, and phase can be independently set on those four channels like the minidsp 2x4.

Below is how I would wire the 88A.

input 1 (FL) output 1 (FL speaker)
input 2 (FR) output 2 (FR speaker)
input 3 (LFE) output 3 (sub #1)
input 4 (center) output 4 (center speaker)
input 5 (NA) output 5 (sub #2)
input 6 (NA) output 6 (sub #3 )
input 7 (NA) ouptut 7 (sub #4)

The second 88A would have SR, SL, RR, LR, TFL, TFR, TRL, TRR. Since there are no subs on this unit, I would set these speakers to small and use the AVR x-over which would send the under x-over content to the LFE channel which would route to the first 88A.

Am I understanding this correctly or am I chewed up like bubble gum?
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post #10628 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post

Am I understanding this correctly or am I chewed up like bubble gum?
Your approach seems sound to me. Since you have those available channels on your two 88A's, this seems to be the perfect use for them, and gives you all the flexibility of a 2x4 to fine-tune the bass response.

What is not to like about that?
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post #10629 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 10:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by nash23 View Post
The DDRC-88BM is available on their site now.
If I use my DDRC-88 as a crossover for my front 3 channels, and also for bass management of my subs.... How low will the sub management go? Can it do this 10 Hz HP @ 24 dB/Butterworth? Can I use the 2nd unit for my Atmos, and surrounds...even though the Atmos channels are on the ceiling, and the surround channels are on the walls?

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post #10630 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Your approach seems sound to me. Since you have those available channels on your two 88A's, this seems to be the perfect use for them, and gives you all the flexibility of a 2x4 to fine-tune the bass response.

What is not to like about that?
Stupid question....>But Chris is doing same thing I'm planning on. If I defeat XO in DM, create curves and slide curtains.....My 7702 won't route <80hz to LFE? Is 88A now taking care of this?

What is 88A doing with multi-sub (sub1 and sub2 output of Marantz?)? Does it know to sum them or do I still need to use a single sub output of prepro and then matrix that to 3-5 subs?

EDIT: My goal would be to place 1-3 NF subs on one prepro sub output and the two front subs on another prepro output.
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post #10631 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
If I use my DDRC-88 as a crossover for my front 3 channels, and also for bass management of my subs.... How low will the sub management go? Can it do 10Hz? Can I use the 2nd unit for my Atmos, and surrounds...even though one is on the ceiling, and the other is on the walls?
Wish I could give you words of wisdom. I am a newbie to the 88Drc.

There are experts who can help.
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post #10632 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Stupid question....>But Chris is doing same thing I'm planning on. If I defeat XO in DM, create curves and slide curtains.....My 7702 won't route <80hz to LFE? Is 88A now taking care of this?

What is 88A doing with multi-sub (sub1 and sub2 output of Marantz?)? Does it know to sum them or do I still need to use a single sub output of prepro and then matrix that to 3-5 subs?

EDIT: My goal would be to place 1-3 NF subs on one prepro sub output and the two front subs on another prepro output.
No need to separate subs onto different outputs on the pre-pro. It is a combined, mono sub signal. The only reason for using two sub outputs on the pre-pro was to set unique trims and delays for each channel. This function would now happen in the 88A, so best to configure the pre-pro for one sub, and use the single pre-pro output into channel 3 on the 88A.

The 88A now will get full-range signals for the main channels, and by establishing crossovers for the main channels, bass is re-routed to the sub (LFE) channel, just as if it were being done in the pre-pro. So on the output side of the 88A, you will need to configure the appropriate trims and delays for each sub channel, just as you would do if you were using a 2x4. The only difference is that you will have much more control using the 88A, and be able to get fancy like using REW filters if that applies to your setup.

I'm sure there will be some trial-and-error before you get it set up perfectly, but the results will be so much better.
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post #10633 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
Is your center channel identical to your l/r speakers?

What distances does Audyssey detect with the 88a reset to defaults?
Actually, I thought you may have been onto something here. The 88A had not been reset to factory defaults for the Audyssey measurements. And, of course, we have been under the assumption that Dirac trims and delays are still in effect when the unit is in bypass mode.

So, I rest the 88A to factory defaults:



I then re-ran Audyssey with these results:




IOW, no difference in the Audyssey measurements whether the 88A has been reset or not. This calls into question as to whether the Dirac trims and delays remain active when the unit is in bypass. Regardless, I trust whatever values Dirac sets--I was just trying to gain a little more insight now that we can see the values Dirac is setting.
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post #10634 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 01:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I will take the plunge since I haven't gone live with my two 88A units yet. My 3rd sub and room treatments should arrive via freight next week. I was waiting on everything to come in first. I also moved my rack to outside the theater room. I didn't want to wire the 88a's until everything was in its final resting place. If I can remove an additional piece of equipment from the setup i.e. 2x4, I am all for it.

I found the answer on the plugin with multiple units - per minidsp forum.

"If I buy more than one board, do I need to buy the plugin more than once?"

No. There is only a one-time charge for our plugins so once purchased, you can use them on multiple hardware units that you have purchased.



Edit - It is official - I ordered the plugin.
Do you know if it can do a 10 Hz High Pass @ 24 dB/Butterworth for the subs? I have 2 88As (only one setup so far), and was thinking of selling my Xilica crossover, and just use the DDRC-88M for my crossover (front 3 channels), and for both DTS-10 subs (this would allow each sub to be optimized, I believe). If a person is going to use 2 units...can you use one for ceiling mounted Atmos channels, and surrounds or will the angles through it off?
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post #10635 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
Do you know if it can do a 10 Hz High Pass @ 24 dB/Butterworth for the subs? I have 2 88As (only one setup so far), and was thinking of selling my Xilica crossover, and just use the DDRC-88M for my crossover (front 3 channels), and for both DTS-10 subs (this would allow each sub to be optimized, I believe). If a person is going to use 2 units...can you use one for ceiling mounted Atmos channels, and surrounds or will the angles through it off?
I am just learning, so I don't know. I would be guessing if I answered.
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post #10636 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Actually, I thought you may have been onto something here. The 88A had not been reset to factory defaults for the Audyssey measurements. And, of course, we have been under the assumption that Dirac trims and delays are still in effect when the unit is in bypass mode.

So, I rest the 88A to factory defaults:



I then re-ran Audyssey with these results:




IOW, no difference in the Audyssey measurements whether the 88A has been reset or not. This calls into question as to whether the Dirac trims and delays remain active when the unit is in bypass. Regardless, I trust whatever values Dirac sets--I was just trying to gain a little more insight now that we can see the values Dirac is setting.
I ran YPAO with Dirac engaged and bypassed. Distance remained the same engaged or bypassed. Both doubled the actual distance.

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post #10637 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 02:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I am just learning, so I don't know. I would be guessing if I answered.
Thanks, I will see if the MiniDSP forums can shed light onto this. I am ready to do it but want to be sure it will do what i want before I commit, and then sell the Xilica.
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post #10638 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
Thanks, I will see if the MiniDSP forums can shed light onto this. I am ready to do it but want to be sure it will do what i want before I commit, and then sell the Xilica.
I don't use EQ very often, so I don't know if this screen shot will be useful.

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post #10639 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 05:01 PM
 
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I don't use EQ very often, so I don't know if this screen shot will be useful.

Thanks, it looks like it will work for the subs for me then. The only other question then is if I can run Atmos, and surrounds on the 2nd DDRC-88A with the surrounds on the walls, and the Atmos channels firing downward from the ceiling.
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post #10640 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 05:06 PM
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Thanks, it looks like it will work for the subs for me then. The only other question then is if I can run Atmos, and surrounds on the 2nd DDRC-88A with the surrounds on the walls, and the Atmos channels firing downward from the ceiling.
I don't know what this has to do with bass management on the 88A.
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I don't know what this has to do with bass management on the 88A.
Danley recommends this... 10 Hz HP @ 24 dB/Butterworth. I believe it is to protect the sub from under 10hz signals. You could call it a crossover setting for the subs I guess (I was thinking that anything to do with boosting or cutting the bass would be bass management). At least it looks like it will work for my subs.
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post #10642 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 05:19 PM
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Danley recommends this... 10 Hz HP @ 24 dB/Butterworth. I believe it is to protect the sub from under 10hz signals. You could call it a crossover setting for the subs I guess (I was thinking that anything to do with boosting or cutting the bass would be bass management). At least it looks like it will work for my subs.
I meant all that stuff about Atmos, not the sub EQ.
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post #10643 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 05:24 PM
 
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I meant all that stuff about Atmos, not the sub EQ.
Ohh. Well the 2nd part doesn't have to do with bass management. Others that have used the DDRC-88A for Atmos via a 2nd DDRC-88A have put their Atmos channels on the 2nd DDRC-88A. If i use the 1st box for my front 3 channels bi-amped, and the other 2 for bass management...I would need to put my surrounds and Atmos on the 2nd box. I have read somewhere that when you run the Atmos channels the angles are different than the surrounds..hence my question as to whether or not i can run Atmos, and surround on the same box. Would this be better asked in the Atmos forum?
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post #10644 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 08:50 PM
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What if I run my L/C/R, 3 subwoofers and surrounds out of the DDRC-88 and just run my rear surrounds out of my Denon 4520?

Boom Boom, out go the lights.
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post #10645 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 09:42 PM
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What if I run my L/C/R, 3 subwoofers and surrounds out of the DDRC-88 and just run my rear surrounds out of my Denon 4520?
Do you mean using the 88ABM to manage the three subs? Nothing wrong with what you are proposing, as long as you set the appropriate trims and delays on the rear surrounds. Of course, the rear surrounds would have no room correction, but I have always felt that these speakers contribute very little to the overall sound. I certainly think it is worth a try. Worst case, you won't like it, and you would need to use a 2x4 for the subs.

The counter-argument is that you will be spending $100, whether for the BM upgrade, or for a 2x4. With the 2x4, you get the subs dialed in as well as have correction for the rear surrounds. The 2x4 purchase is certainly a less risky approach.
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post #10646 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 09:48 PM
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I already have a 2x4. Just wondering what would be better.

Boom Boom, out go the lights.
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post #10647 of 16926 Old 06-04-2016, 10:13 PM
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I already have a 2x4. Just wondering what would be better.
I can't conceive of a scenario in which sacrificing equalization for the rear surrounds by moving bass management to the 88ABM would be better than simply using the 2x4. I assume you have implemented the 2x4 similarly to what is described in my guide?
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post #10648 of 16926 Old 06-05-2016, 02:07 PM
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I probably won't start on BM implementation until later this week or next. Will keep all posted on trial and error.

If @kbarnes701 or @markus767 are still around would appreciate any time saving tips. Or from anyone else for that matter.
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post #10649 of 16926 Old 06-05-2016, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
I probably won't start on BM implementation until later this week or next. Will keep all posted on trial and error.

If @kbarnes701 or @markus767 are still around would appreciate any time saving tips. Or from anyone else for that matter.
Keith is on hiatus, and I am not sure that Markus has two 88A's with Atmos. I think the approach proposed by Molon_Labe sounds very good. Keep in mind that bass from speakers not connected to the first 88A will not be routed to the subs. Since the second 88A has the ceiling speakers and rear surrounds, I don't know how much bass content goes to those channels. The speakers would receive a full-range signal unless you use the EQ capabilities to restrict the range. Is there any possibility that the ceiling/surround speakers could be damaged by excessive bass?

And as for the configuration of the subs on the first 88A, you would need to follow similar guidelines to using a 2x4, i.e. set up delays for each sub, gain-match, etc. I think the whole set-up is going to be reasonably straight-forward, but may be time-consuming as you feel your way through it.
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post #10650 of 16926 Old 06-05-2016, 02:48 PM
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Excellent input. I hadn't considered that.

My speakers only play down to 80. As an atmos aficionado, I can tell you that full range for the ceiling is pretty crucial. Sub 80hz definitely goes to the atmos speakers (thunderstorms etc).

I'll want to avoid double bass and therefore will keep all subs on one 88a. Guess I'm still block diagraming this in my head.
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