**miniDSP DDRC-88A Official Thread**8-channel AI/AO Dirac Live in a box - Page 356 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10651 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Excellent input. I hadn't considered that.

My speakers only play down to 80. As an atmos aficionado, I can tell you that full range for the ceiling is pretty crucial. Sub 80hz definitely goes to the atmos speakers (thunderstorms etc).

I'll want to avoid double bass and therefore will keep all subs on one 88a. Guess I'm still block diagraming this in my head.
Here is an idea from Left Field. Of concern is the bass content for the speakers connected to the second 88A--how much bass is there, how deep does it go, and where does it go if there is no subwoofer?

To test this out, temporarily hook up a woofer to the second 88A. Use bass management to route the bass from the ceiling and surround speakers. Set the crossover at a typical value, say 80Hz. Then mute the ceiling and surround speakers (as well as all the speakers on the first 88A), play a familiar movie you know is heavy on bass, and listen to how much bass content is in the ceiling and surround speakers that is being re-directed to the sub.

I know, crazy idea, but at least you would have a better understanding of what is going on with the second 88A.
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post #10652 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 07:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Here is an idea from Left Field. Of concern is the bass content for the speakers connected to the second 88A--how much bass is there, how deep does it go, and where does it go if there is no subwoofer?

To test this out, temporarily hook up a woofer to the second 88A. Use bass management to route the bass from the ceiling and surround speakers. Set the crossover at a typical value, say 80Hz. Then mute the ceiling and surround speakers (as well as all the speakers on the first 88A), play a familiar movie you know is heavy on bass, and listen to how much bass content is in the ceiling and surround speakers that is being re-directed to the sub.

I know, crazy idea, but at least you would have a better understanding of what is going on with the second 88A.
No disrespect intended (just trying to figure this out), but before the 88M was released...the ones who have used 2 88A boxes had Atmos on the 2nd one, correct? Does this mean they had no bass too? I would have thought that the preamp would be sending the sub bass to the subs for any channel. Am I missing something here?

If this is the case...couldn't you send one of the sub signals to the first box (instead of 2 to one box), and send the other sub to the 2nd box? I know this would mean moving one Atmos or surround channel to the first box (if you are bi-amping the front 3 channels), but it sounds like it would work if you need to have a sub on each box to get sub output. Does this make sense, and would it solve the problem of bass in the surrounds, and Atmos channels?
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post #10653 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 07:42 PM
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When we remodeled, our theater was set up for a 9.4.6 system long before Atmos came out. It now consists of 9 Martin Logan's (base), 4 JTR Captivator's (subs) and 6 Gallo Strada's (ceiling) on a Marrantz AV8801 preamp with multiple Adcom/Emotiva external amps and the subs on Y-adapters.

Because Atmos wasn't yet available, I originally used 2 Smart 3CX DSP's for deriving the 2x3 ceiling arrays. I've been waiting for a true Atmos 9.1.6 processor under $5,000 that incorporates Dirac. It looks like it's going to be a long wait. So I've been considering upgrading to the Marrantz AV8802 and two Dirac DRC-88A's, using the Smart 3CX's to the middle top channels between Front Height and Rear Hight. I'm also considering adding 2 more JTR subs directly behind the main LP to enhance tactile feel for the ULF (I'm on concrete subfloor).

I'm a little confused on MiniDSP's website when looking at base management with multiple subs. I understood that the new version of the DDRC-88A incorporated a MiniDSP 2x4 for multiple subwoofers. However there are posts in this thread complaining about a DDRC 88A room correction solution because you still have to get a MiniDSP 2x4 for multiple subs. There is also a DDRC-88BM software plug-in on their website which looks like it is more for bass management of content from the other channels than for balancing multiple subs.

What is the proper configuration using two DDRC 88A's for a 9.1 6 system with 4-6 subs?
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post #10654 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 07:49 PM
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So yesterday I turned on my system to listen to some music and i get pops in several speakers and the sound is messed up. Get the laptop out and take a look all my channels are wrong. So I close dlct and open the utility and reset. Close utility and reopen dlct and reload my project all is well. This is second time this has happened in about 5 weeks. Not too worried yet, but if it becomes a persistent issue i will have need to have a discussion with minidsp.

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post #10655 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by HTPCat View Post
So yesterday I turned on my system to listen to some music and i get pops in several speakers and the sound is messed up. Get the laptop out and take a look all my channels are wrong. So I close dlct and open the utility and reset. Close utility and reopen dlct and reload my project all is well. This is second time this has happened in about 5 weeks. Not too worried yet, but if it becomes a persistent issue i will have need to have a discussion with minidsp.
Yeah, I had similar head scratching issues.
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post #10656 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
No disrespect intended (just trying to figure this out), but before the 88M was released...the ones who have used 2 88A boxes had Atmos on the 2nd one, correct? Does this mean they had no bass too? I would have thought that the preamp would be sending the sub bass to the subs for any channel. Am I missing something here?

If this is the case...couldn't you send one of the sub signals to the first box (instead of 2 to one box), and send the other sub to the 2nd box? I know this would mean moving one Atmos or surround channel to the first box (if you are bi-amping the front 3 channels), but it sounds like it would work if you need to have a sub on each box to get sub output. Does this make sense, and would it solve the problem of bass in the surrounds, and Atmos channels?
The problem with this approach is that Dirac must be presented with a single, combined sub signal. With subs connected to both 88A's, there would be two entirely different sub signals, each receiving an independent set of Dirac filters. This is completely uncharted territory, and everything I know about equalizing subs says that this is not going to work well.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with experimenting, and if you decide to try this, we will look forward to your results.
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post #10657 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post

What is the proper configuration using two DDRC 88A's for a 9.1 6 system with 4-6 subs?
I think we are in uncharted territory here, Peter. Using two 88A's in an Atmos configuration is a clever solution devised by a number of people in this thread. However, it is not a supported solution by MiniDSP.

IMO, the best way to handle multiple subs continues to be with a separate 2x4, feeding a single, combined sub signal to one of the two 88A's. This allows the pre-pro to handle bass management for all speakers, and avoids the concern about having no bass management for speakers connected to the second 88A.

I mean no disrespect to MiniDSP, who were kind enough to allow me to beta-test their bass management upgrade, but for most of us with at least a 7.1 configuration, handling bass management in the 88A does not seem to be a viable solution. In many ways the BM upgrade is an elegant technical solution looking for the right problem to fix. A multi-speaker Atmos configuration is not that problem, sad to say. Just my opinion, of course.
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post #10658 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Excellent input. I hadn't considered that.

My speakers only play down to 80. As an atmos aficionado, I can tell you that full range for the ceiling is pretty crucial. Sub 80hz definitely goes to the atmos speakers (thunderstorms etc).

I'll want to avoid double bass and therefore will keep all subs on one 88a. Guess I'm still block diagraming this in my head.
The surrounds and Atmos speakers on 88A #2 won't get full range if you set the speakers to small and set the x-over to 80hz in the AVR. This will route all of the content bellow 80hz out the LFE channel on the AVR, which is connected to 88A #1 (subs) - problem solved.

Granted, this will negate all bass management on 88A #2 , but who cares. Keep all the bass management on 88A #1 .

Make sense?
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post #10659 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
IMO, the best way to handle multiple subs continues to be with a separate 2x4, feeding a single, combined sub signal to one of the two 88A's. This allows the pre-pro to handle bass management for all speakers, and avoids the concern about having no bass management for speakers connected to the second 88A.
I thought that I read here on AVS that MiniDSP incorporated a 2x4 into a newer version of the 88A?

Is that wrong?
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post #10660 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
The surrounds and Atmos speakers on 88A #2 won't get full range if you set the speakers to small and set the x-over to 80hz in the AVR. This will route all of the content bellow 80hz out the LFE channel on the AVR, which is connected to 88A #1 (subs) - problem solved.

Granted, this will negate all bass management on 88A #2 , but who cares. Keep all the bass management on 88A #1 .

Make sense?
Good suggestion. I think this works.
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post #10661 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
I thought that I read here on AVS that MiniDSP incorporated a 2x4 into a newer version of the 88A?

Is that wrong?
No, you are correct. But the issue we have been discussing is how to handle bass management for the speakers connected to the second 88A. Recall, all the subs are connected to the first 88A, so there is no sub on the second 88A to handle the redirected bass.

Molon_Labe's suggestion may be the answer.
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post #10662 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 10:04 PM
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I have the following subs, SVS PB-13, SVS PC-13 and PSA V3600i (dual 18's ). How should I go about gain matching these?

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post #10663 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
When we remodeled, our theater was set up for a 9.4.6 system long before Atmos came out. It now consists of 9 Martin Logan's (base), 4 JTR Captivator's (subs) and 6 Gallo Strada's (ceiling) on a Marrantz AV8801 preamp with multiple Adcom/Emotiva external amps and the subs on Y-adapters.

Because Atmos wasn't yet available, I originally used 2 Smart 3CX DSP's for deriving the 2x3 ceiling arrays. I've been waiting for a true Atmos 9.1.6 processor under $5,000 that incorporates Dirac. It looks like it's going to be a long wait. So I've been considering upgrading to the Marrantz AV8802 and two Dirac DRC-88A's, using the Smart 3CX's to the middle top channels between Front Height and Rear Hight. I'm also considering adding 2 more JTR subs directly behind the main LP to enhance tactile feel for the ULF (I'm on concrete subfloor).

I'm a little confused on MiniDSP's website when looking at base management with multiple subs. I understood that the new version of the DDRC-88A incorporated a MiniDSP 2x4 for multiple subwoofers. However there are posts in this thread complaining about a DDRC 88A room correction solution because you still have to get a MiniDSP 2x4 for multiple subs. There is also a DDRC-88BM software plug-in on their website which looks like it is more for bass management of content from the other channels than for balancing multiple subs.

What is the proper configuration using two DDRC 88A's for a 9.1 6 system with 4-6 subs?
Peter,

Scott Simonian gave the following neat solution for people such as yourself who have 6 ceiling speakers and utilizing how Dolby Pro-Logic II works in extracting the center channel from the R/L input signals.

7.1.6 Atmos setup:

You can utilize current technology pre/pro/receivers that outputs 4 height channels and thus expand to 6 height with two older pre/pro/receivers by using the built in Dolby Pro-Logic II up-scaling algorithm. The output from these can then go to one of the DDRC-88A that will take up 6 channels. With two spare channels left over, it can be used for the front wide speakers.

The standard 7 floor speakers and LFE channel can go to the first DDRC-88A. Use the 2x4 balanced unit to connect up to 4 independent subs. See Jerry's guide for multiple sub setups using the 2x4 in his signature. If you want more than 4 subs, there is the 10x10HD that can do up to 8 subs with a single LFE input. Bonus is that the 10x10HD can handle larger input/output voltages.

This will give you the 9.4.6 system you're aiming for.

Marantz SR-7009, Oppo BPD-93, MTV 7000D, aTV, Harmony Home Control remote, KEF E301+T101, MiniDSP (2x4)+(10x10HD)+(DDRC-88A), Emotiva 2xXPA-5 (Gen2), Rythmik 2xF12G+2xF8, HiMedia Q16, LG 55EC9300.
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post #10664 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 10:16 PM
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No, you are correct. But the issue we have been discussing is how to handle bass management for the speakers connected to the second 88A. Recall, all the subs are connected to the first 88A, so there is no sub on the second 88A to handle the redirected bass.

Molon_Labe's suggestion may be the answer.

I wasn't planning on doing any bass management on the 88A number 2.

If you wanted to have bass management on 88A number 2, you could output the LFE from the first 88A to an input on the second 88A. This would require that one surround or Atmos speaker to be connected to 88 number 1. The rest of the surrounds and Atmos would be connected to second 88A that has a sub attached. Of course you could move more surrounds to 88A number 1 and have additional subs on 88A number 2.

Do you see any potential issue with that topology?
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post #10665 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I wasn't planning on doing any bass management on the 88A number 2.

If you wanted to have bass management on 88A number 2, you could output the LFE from the first 88A to an input on the second 88A. This would require that one surround or Atmos speaker to be connected to 88 number 1. The rest of the surrounds and Atmos would be connected to second 88A that has a sub attached. Of course you could move more surrounds to 88A number 1 and have additional subs on 88A number 2.

Do you see any potential issue with that topology?
I am not sure I follow this suggestion. You proposed a simple solution earlier. Why are you proposing this solution now, and how does it offer a better solution than simply handling the bass management for the ceiling and rear surrounds on the pre-pro?
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post #10666 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by travis-g View Post
I have the following subs, SVS PB-13, SVS PC-13 and PSA V3600i (dual 18's ). How should I go about gain matching these?
How to gain-match is described in the 2x4 setup guide linked in my sig. As a general statement, though, gain-matching works best on identical subs. Whether gain-matching or level-matching works best in your situation will require extensive testing. I assume you use REW?
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post #10667 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 10:40 PM
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Yes I have REW. Using it is a work in progress.

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post #10668 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 10:50 PM
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On the MiniDSP website, the cost of two 88A's + two Phoenix to XLR's (male) + two Phoenix to XLR's (female) + 1 UMIK-1 mike is $2,228. That would go a long way toward buying a new 9.1.6 processor with Dirac if and when they come out. Is the DIRAC version in the 88A different or more comprehensive than the version already OEM'ed into processors like the Emotiva XMC-1, Arcam AVR550/AVR850, Theta Casablanca IV, or DataSat RS20i ?

How does it compare to Dirac Live Room Correction Suite software for the Mac?

Dirac recommend the use of a calibrated microphone with the Correction Suite such as the XTZ system, an Earthworks M23 or a Behringer ACM 8000 because the program can use correction filters supplied by the microphone manufacturer to make the microphone perfectly flat for the program. Is the UMIK-1 adequate for the resolution of the 88A?

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post #10669 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
On the MiniDSP website, the cost of two 88A's + two Phoenix to XLR's (male) + two Phoenix to XLR's (female) + 1 UMIK-1 mike is $2,228.

Is the DIRAC version in the 88A different or more comprehensive than the version OEM'ed into processors like Emotiva XMC-1, Arcam AVR550/AVR850, Theta Casablanca IV, or DataSat RS20i processors?

How does it compare to Dirac Live Room Correction Suite software for the Mac?

Lastly, Dirac recommend the use of a calibrated microphone with their Dirac Live Room Correction Suite such as the XTZ system, an Earthworks M23 or a Behringer ACM 8000 because the program can use correction filters supplied by the microphone manufacturer to make the microphone perfectly flat for the program. Is the UMIK-1 adequate for the resolution of the 88A?
The Dirac software on the devices you mention is essentially the same. There are some implementation differences. For example, on the MiniDSP there are four memory locations to save four unique Dirac calibrations. The XMC-1 is missing this feature. Arcam supports more than 8 channels of Dirac Live. There might be other implementation differences, but AFAIK, the underlying Dirac correction algorithms are the same. The Dirac projects are interchangeable as well--I have loaded projects from the XMC-1.

As for microphones, you have no choice. The 88A requires use of the UMIK-1. You can purchase the UMIK-1 from Cross Spectrum Labs, and you will receive custom calibration files. The UMIK-1 seems to be completely acceptable as a Dirac calibration mic, otherwise Dirac would not certify and support the MiniDSP solution.

BTW, if you are handy, you can build the XLR to Phoenix cables. There is a link to a step-by-step guide in the information contained in the first several posts of this thread. The cables from MiniDSP seem expensive, and you have no control over the length.

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post #10670 of 16910 Old 06-05-2016, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The Dirac software on the devices you mention is essentially the same. There are some implementation differences. For example, on the MiniDSP there are four memory locations to save four unique Dirac calibrations. The XMC-1 is missing this feature. Arcam supports more than 8 channels of Dirac Live. There might be other implementation differences, but AFAIK, the underlying Dirac correction algorithms are the same. The Dirac projects are interchangeable as well--I have loaded projects from the XMC-1.
It looks like the Arcam AVR 550 is $3,400 list with Dirac and pre-outs for a 7.1.4 configuration. It also has 4K (UHD) video including Ultra HD upscaling with 7 x HDMI 2.0 inputs with HDCP 2.2 - 3 HDMI outputs which I like. I can get the Marrantz AV8802 through work at cost but it would still be about $5k with the two 88A's. The Arcam would save me about $1,600 and I'd still need a MiniDSP 2x4 for the subs, but I would loose balanced XLR outputs, my front wide channels and Dirac for the top center channels (plus the ability to move the dual 88A's to another processor when 9.1.6 becomes available). Is the interface on the Arcam substantially different than the MiniDSP?

Lastly, all my 9.x.x base channels are Martin Logan electrostatic speakers. With all the panels being dipole, will the back wave confuse Dirac and make phase adjustment impossible?

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post #10671 of 16910 Old 06-06-2016, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
Lastly, all my 9.x.x base channels are Martin Logan electrostatic speakers. With all the panels being dipole, will the back wave confuse Dirac and make phase adjustment impossible?
Sorry I can't exactly answer your question but for what it's worth I've read that @flax (Flavio) who works for Dirac uses ESL's (not sure of brand or model it's just referenced as electrostats) and Wayne of Home Theater Shack used ML EM ESL's for their review of the nanoAVR-DL:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...or-review.html

There's just not a lot of people who use ESL's and Dirac it seems. If you have a measurement mic and a PC hooked to your system you can try the Dirac Live 2 week trial and check with REW. I should get around to doing that again as I might pick up a nanoAVR-DL since I already have a nanoAVR-HD so I can get around the bass management "issue" with the DL.

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post #10672 of 16910 Old 06-06-2016, 06:00 AM
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That would go a long way toward buying a new 9.1.6 processor with Dirac if and when they come out
Until that unicorn is spotted, Dirac via the 88A is the only viable option for most. I would prefer to have an all-in-one unit for sure. However, going with the MiniDSP has forced me to buy external amps and two 88As. The plus side to this is I am now AVR agnostic. I can choose whatever pre/pro I want and not loose any functionality. I want to stay with the mainstream AVR vendors and not venture into the fringe providers such as Arcam and Emotiva. It may be a long time, if ever, before they adopt Dirac. Trinnov is not an option for me. If I spend $30k it will be for a pool for my new grandson, not an AVR processor
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post #10673 of 16910 Old 06-06-2016, 06:58 AM
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I am not proposing it other than a way to be able to have bass management on the second unit (if someone wanted that). I have no intention of wiring it that way. Just trying to think of "other" workable solutions.
Whew, I am relieved. You had me worried there. I can't think of a compelling reason to insist that bass management happen in the second 88A, and doing it in the pre-pro sounds so much cleaner and simpler.
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post #10674 of 16910 Old 06-06-2016, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
... I can get the Marrantz AV8802 through work at cost but it would still be about $5k with the two 88A's. The Arcam would save me about $1,600 and I'd still need a MiniDSP 2x4 for the subs, but I would loose balanced XLR outputs, my front wide channels and Dirac for the top center channels (plus the ability to move the dual 88A's to another processor when 9.1.6 becomes available). Is the interface on the Arcam substantially different than the MiniDSP?...
How much would you be able save by going with the Marantz AV7702MkII? The 11.1 channel processing limits are the same on both Marantz pre/pros and I'm not sure one will be able to hear the difference between the AV8802 vs. AV7702MkII once Dirac Live is engaged on both units in the same room.

If both the pre/pro and external amps are not too far from each other, the simple single ended RCA connection has worked well for a lot of DDRC-88A owners. Can your subs take XLR inputs?
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post #10675 of 16910 Old 06-06-2016, 09:35 AM
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Ha. Just brainstorming last night. U guys r headed straight where I'm going. I'm setting surrounds/atmos to small and NOT negating BM in prepro. I'll set my XOs to 80hz but still have below xo sent to LFE that way. But Dirac can handle the EQ for LFE.
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post #10676 of 16910 Old 06-06-2016, 10:32 AM
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I finally bought one last night, looking forward to it since I haven't bought any toys for the room in a long time.
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post #10677 of 16910 Old 06-06-2016, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Whew, I am relieved. You had me worried there. I can't think of a compelling reason to insist that bass management happen in the second 88A, and doing it in the pre-pro sounds so much cleaner and simpler.
it means you have access to a wider range of filters, both in terms of order and type, and those filters are precisely known as to what they are. This is contrast to the limited choice afforded by the AVR which generally just allows some variation to the corner frequency.

This looks pretty compelling to me from an capability point of view. I imagine it's a useless feature for many people though; i.e. v handy if you need it, useless if you don't.
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post #10678 of 16910 Old 06-06-2016, 11:12 AM
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There doesn't seem to be much excitement about this release. https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88bm . Its a pity the plug in is so much more expensive than their other plug ins. Those who have downloaded it, are you happy with it?

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post #10679 of 16910 Old 06-06-2016, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by windshear View Post
There doesn't seem to be much excitement about this release. https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88bm . Its a pity the plug in is so much more expensive than their other plug ins. Those who have downloaded it, are you happy with it?
Yes, very happy with it. The software gives you more options for fine tuning bass management and speakers than what you normally see in AVRs or pre-pros, even very expensive ones.
For Atmos/DTS:X a 12+ channel version would be desirable though.
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post #10680 of 16910 Old 06-06-2016, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Yes, very happy with it. The software gives you more options for fine tuning bass management and speakers than what you normally see in AVRs or pre-pros, even very expensive ones.
For Atmos/DTS:X a 12+ channel version would be desirable though.
Words of wisdom? Advice? I'm not breaking the theater until I hear the trials and tribulations. Jerry mentioned u r only running one 88?
Any input on what u have implemented is much appreciated.
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