**miniDSP DDRC-88A Official Thread**8-channel AI/AO Dirac Live in a box - Page 386 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11551 of 16634 Old 08-31-2016, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Have you read the guide linked in my sig? It should provide direction.
I have been using your guide, but I am still missing something. I have tried inverting polarity, but that didn't so anything. Used your guide to figure out delay for rear NF sub, but I'm still missing something. Will give the guide another read-thru on the plane today and give this another shot when I get home this weekend. Thanks.

Audio: Yamaha CX-A5100 | Adcom GFA-555 + Outlaw Audio 5000 + Onkyo M-5010
Mains: Klipsch RP-160M + FM8 | Center: Klipsch RP-450c
Surrounds: Klipsch RP-160M | Klipsch R-15M | Polk Audio RC65i
Subs: Rythmik F15HP x4
Video: Vizio P702ui-B3 | Epson 5040ub | Oppo 203
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post #11552 of 16634 Old 09-01-2016, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Yes. I know of some users who have all speakers in one group. Perfectly acceptable.

Multiple subs should always be presented to Dirac as a single combined sub signal. If you have enough channels on the 88BM to accommodate both the speakers and all the subs, then the 88BM can be used to configure individual delays for each sub, and then combine the signals onto the Dirac channel 3. I didn't develop a section in my guide to do this, since I don't have spare channels on my 88BM. I am reluctant to provide instructions for things that I cannot test myself. So I provide this functionality using an external 2x4. Either way, using the 88BM or the 2x4, will be equally effective.
Jerry,
One more question reference Dirac measurements.
I am using the Dirac Live VST as a plug-in on JRiver.
How do I use REW to measure/confirm the results of the DAP?
When I have JRiver/Dirac active, REW doesn't seem to find either the UMIK or the ASIO4ALL.
Signal chain: JRiver/Dirac through WIN10 hdmi Oppo 105D analog 5.1 Emotiva XMC-1 W4S MCH Amp
Thank you sir.
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post #11553 of 16634 Old 09-01-2016, 08:50 AM
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Custom Targets

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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The project you posted looks like the Auto Targets. I thought you had made an attempt at custom targets. My quick observations:

- The left/right "before" response is a little choppy. While Dirac is doing a creditable job correcting the response, it is having to do a lot of work. Anything you can do to improve the mains' response curves?
- The sub correction extends all the way to 500Hz, and the sub's output above 200Hz is significantly below -10dB. I would move the right "curtain" for the sub down to 200Hz, and not correct above this point. You really only need correction one octave above the crossover point, which I am assuming is 100Hz or less.
- The low end of the surrounds also extends beyond -10dB. I would create a low end "curtain" at ~50Hz, and not correct below that point. Again, that would be one octave below a 100Hz crossover.

If you create a custom target, share it here.
I read the guide on custom targets and understand how to edit a target curve with a text editor. In the guide, all the 'before' targets already are ski jumped shaped and adjustments are applied to that shape.

However, none of my Auto Targets are ski jump shaped. Do I want to
force the target curve to have a ski jump shape?

I have applied the curtains to the sub and surrounds. I think the problem with the fronts is that they are on shelves that are pretty high and I need to angle them down. I am going to do that and remeasure. Leaving for vacation on Sunday so not sure if I will be able to do that before I go.

Nick

EDIT: I did create 3 speaker groupings - L-C-R, Sub, Surrounds and Rears

Last edited by nsiret; 09-01-2016 at 09:42 AM. Reason: Additonal Info
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post #11554 of 16634 Old 09-01-2016, 10:25 AM
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I read the guide on custom targets and understand how to edit a target curve with a text editor. In the guide, all the 'before' targets already are ski jumped shaped and adjustments are applied to that shape.

However, none of my Auto Targets are ski jump shaped. Do I want to
force the target curve to have a ski jump shape?

I have applied the curtains to the sub and surrounds. I think the problem with the fronts is that they are on shelves that are pretty high and I need to angle them down. I am going to do that and remeasure. Leaving for vacation on Sunday so not sure if I will be able to do that before I go.

Nick

EDIT: I did create 3 speaker groupings - L-C-R, Sub, Surrounds and Rears
Best if the speakers are pointed directly at the MLP, IMO. Once you have completed the new measurements, post a link to your Dirac project here and I will show you how to apply a custom target similar to what is shown in the guide.
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post #11555 of 16634 Old 09-03-2016, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Best if the speakers are pointed directly at the MLP, IMO. Once you have completed the new measurements, post a link to your Dirac project here and I will show you how to apply a custom target similar to what is shown in the guide.
I ran measurements today and have attached a link. I am leaving early tomorrow AM so won't get a chance to apply the custom targets until I get back next weekend. I appreciate your help.

Nick

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b7u2j3laak...2016.dprj?dl=0
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post #11556 of 16634 Old 09-03-2016, 08:58 PM
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I ran measurements today and have attached a link. I am leaving early tomorrow AM so won't get a chance to apply the custom targets until I get back next weekend. I appreciate your help.

Nick
Here is a custom target you can try that has a 6.5dB bass boost.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ys%20Mods.dprj
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post #11557 of 16634 Old 09-03-2016, 09:32 PM
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@AustinJerry could you please do a ski slope type custom curve for me, I have been trying to get one that sounds good and just not there. Maybe something like 4 to 5dB bass boost?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tk3f9vwktx...3016.dprj?dl=0

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post #11558 of 16634 Old 09-04-2016, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Here is a custom target you can try that has a 6.5dB bass boost.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ys%20Mods.dprj
Thanks Jerry. I appreciate you doing this.

Will try this out when I get back at the end of the week.

Nick
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post #11559 of 16634 Old 09-04-2016, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by HTPCat View Post
@AustinJerry could you please do a ski slope type custom curve for me, I have been trying to get one that sounds good and just not there. Maybe something like 4 to 5dB bass boost?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tk3f9vwktx...3016.dprj?dl=0
Try this one on for size: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ys-Custom.dprj

And here are the actual text files: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...xt%20Files.zip
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post #11560 of 16634 Old 09-04-2016, 06:34 PM
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Thanks Jerry, playing with it now, sounding really good (although I am struggling a little with the lower levels). I am such a creature of habit, aost always listened to music at -12, now at -7. I am in process of painting and putting up black velvet along with some more treatments so probably be without sound for a week. Also will have to recalibrate next weekend hopefully.

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post #11561 of 16634 Old 09-04-2016, 07:41 PM
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Thanks Jerry, playing with it now, sounding really good (although I am struggling a little with the lower levels). I am such a creature of habit, aost always listened to music at -12, now at -7. I am in process of painting and putting up black velvet along with some more treatments so probably be without sound for a week. Also will have to recalibrate next weekend hopefully.
When creating the custom curve, I am careful to avoid any areas where Dirac is asked to boost more than 10dB (which it can't). The trade-off is slightly lower output levels for all speakers.

Listen closely to bass output. If you feel it is too heavy, we can reduce bass boost, which would get you back some of the output you have lost. If you like the current bass, then get used to -7 for music. The MV setting really doesn't make any difference.

You could also raise the source level by 5dB on the input you use for music. That would put you back at -12 for that input.
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post #11562 of 16634 Old 09-05-2016, 03:18 PM
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I have revised the 88BM setup guide to include the requirement to conduct a time alignment between the two 88BM's. My thanks to @markus767 for pointing out the requirement for a time alignment, and to @KevinG for the example that made it all clearer to me.

I have done some testing, observing the behavior of running Audyssey to determine speaker distances, a key part of the time alignment. Several observations, none of which are new, but bear repeating:

- Dirac trims and delays remain active whether the Dirac filters are on or off.
- Dirac filters are non-zero for configuration slots with an actual saved Dirac calibration. If a configuration slot is empty, the Dirac trims and delays are zero (as expected).
- The 88BM hardware introduces an 18.5ms delay, equivalent to 20.8 ft. So when you run Audyssey with the 88BM in the signal path, a speaker 10ft from the MLP will register as ~31ft in the AVR.

One uncertainty that I still have is whether the time-alignment using Audyssey should be run after the Dirac Live calibration, or before. In my write-up, I recommended after. If this is not correct, please let me know, and explain why.

The revised guide section starts on page 8, and the guide is linked in my sig. Feedback appreciated.
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post #11563 of 16634 Old 09-05-2016, 04:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I have revised the 88BM setup guide to include the requirement to conduct a time alignment between the two 88BM's. My thanks to @markus767 for pointing out the requirement for a time alignment, and to @KevinG for the example that made it all clearer to me.

I have done some testing, observing the behavior of running Audyssey to determine speaker distances, a key part of the time alignment. Several observations, none of which are new, but bear repeating:

- Dirac trims and delays remain active whether the Dirac filters are on or off.
- Dirac filters are non-zero for configuration slots with an actual saved Dirac calibration. If a configuration slot is empty, the Dirac trims and delays are zero (as expected).
- The 88BM hardware introduces an 18.5ms delay, equivalent to 20.8 ft. So when you run Audyssey with the 88BM in the signal path, a speaker 10ft from the MLP will register as ~31ft in the AVR.

One uncertainty that I still have is whether the time-alignment using Audyssey should be run after the Dirac Live calibration, or before. In my write-up, I recommended after. If this is not correct, please let me know, and explain why.

The revised guide section starts on page 8, and the guide is linked in my sig. Feedback appreciated.
Question: It appears most people with 2 boxes are just using the 2nd box for Atmos... In my situation I am using the 1st box for my front 3 channels, and subs. Would I still need to do this since I am running my surrounds, and Atmos both on the 2nd box, or is it still the same requirement?
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post #11564 of 16634 Old 09-05-2016, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
Question: It appears most people with 2 boxes are just using the 2nd box for Atmos... In my situation I am using the 1st box for my front 3 channels, and subs. Would I still need to do this since I am running my surrounds, and Atmos both on the 2nd box, or is it still the same requirement?
Regardless of what speakers are connected to each of the two 88BM's, each will determine the "reference speaker", and since the reference speakers are different distances away from the MLP, a time-alignment will be required. Besides, Dirac has no knowledge of how a speaker is used--it simply sends a test signal and records the results, completely independent of any other speaker in the configuration.
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post #11565 of 16634 Old 09-05-2016, 04:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Regardless of what speakers are connected to each of the two 88BM's, each will determine the "reference speaker", and since the reference speakers are different distances away from the MLP, a time-alignment will be required. Besides, Dirac has no knowledge of how a speaker is used--it simply sends a test signal and records the results, completely independent of any other speaker in the configuration.
Thanks Jerry, just wanted to verify.
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post #11566 of 16634 Old 09-06-2016, 04:53 AM
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One uncertainty that I still have is whether the time-alignment using Audyssey should be run after the Dirac Live calibration, or before. In my write-up, I recommended after. If this is not correct, please let me know, and explain why.
I think Audyssey has to be done after Dirac calibration. I'm fairly certain that the delay introduced by Dirac is not constant, and is related to the filters that it decides to apply. It may not vary by much, but might as well give Audyssey the most accurate view of the room that you can...(besides, if you are doing this for the first time, the only way to get *any* delays into Dirac is by doing Dirac first...)
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post #11567 of 16634 Old 09-06-2016, 07:35 AM
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Quick Question:


Do you have to have an internet connection for Dirac to Optimize? Does the DDRC-88A have to pop online quick to verify your DL license or something?


The reason I ask is because I just got everything set up in my new house this weekend. I went on the DLCT just fine... ran all my measurements and got the very end. As soon as I would hit 'optimize' = it would say I could not connect to the internet (which is true, because I don't have internet hooked up until next Friday).


As a side note, I went ahead and just ran Audyssey for the time being. It's amazing when you go from Dirac back to Audyssey... the differences are very noticeable.
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post #11568 of 16634 Old 09-06-2016, 09:16 AM
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Yes you need internet.

Dirac protects their algorithm by requiring you to connect to their servers to perform the optimization.
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post #11569 of 16634 Old 09-06-2016, 11:02 AM
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I think Audyssey has to be done after Dirac calibration. I'm fairly certain that the delay introduced by Dirac is not constant, and is related to the filters that it decides to apply. It may not vary by much, but might as well give Audyssey the most accurate view of the room that you can...(besides, if you are doing this for the first time, the only way to get *any* delays into Dirac is by doing Dirac first...)
After giving this some more thought, I think the case can be made that Dirac needs to be run first.

If you run Audyssey first, then it will set speaker delays based on the actual measured distances, without any influence from Dirac delays. Now, after running Audyssey, you run the Dirac calibration. We know that a Dirac calibration doesn't involve the AVR, so the AVR delays are not taken into account. Dirac measures and sets its own delays and, when the AVR is brought back on line, results in delays being added together.

If this makes sense, then the only approach is to run Dirac first, and then run Audyssey, which "sees" the Dirac delays and adjusts its delays accordingly.
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After giving this some more thought, I think the case can be made that Dirac needs to be run first.

If you run Audyssey first, then it will set speaker delays based on the actual measured distances, without any influence from Dirac delays. Now, after running Audyssey, you run the Dirac calibration. We know that a Dirac calibration doesn't involve the AVR, so the AVR delays are not taken into account. Dirac measures and sets its own delays and, when the AVR is brought back on line, results in delays being added together.

If this makes sense, then the only approach is to run Dirac first, and then run Audyssey, which "sees" the Dirac delays and adjusts its delays accordingly.
I am running 2 DDRC-88 boxes, and have YPAO...I have not ran YPAO, should I be, or is this just for Atmos users with one DDRC-88?
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post #11571 of 16634 Old 09-06-2016, 04:34 PM
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I am running 2 DDRC-88 boxes, and have YPAO...I have not ran YPAO, should I be, or is this just for Atmos users with one DDRC-88?
Did you read the guide update? Each of your two devices has a "reference speaker" upon which delays are calculated. Since the two speakers are different distances from the MLP, a time-alignment is required. Unless you time-align the two 88A's, you have a flawed installation. I assume YPAO sets speaker distances in the AVR, so you should be able to use it to complete the alignment.
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post #11572 of 16634 Old 09-06-2016, 05:34 PM
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I am running 2 DDRC-88 boxes, and have YPAO...I have not ran YPAO, should I be, or is this just for Atmos users with one DDRC-88?


Yes. Run YPAO and then be sure to switch the PEQ to Through. It defaults to Flat after running. You'll get an out-of-phase error, but you can ignore it. It will also get speaker sizes and crossovers wrong, so they'll need to be reset.
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Yes. Run YPAO and then be sure to switch the PEQ to Through. It defaults to Flat after running. You'll get an out-of-phase error, but you can ignore it. It will also get speaker sizes and crossovers wrong, so they'll need to be reset.
I assume "through" means "off", correct? If so, yes, very important. And if running the BM plug-in, speakers must be set to "large".

Did you review the Atmos section in the guide? If so, did I capture the process correctly? Recall that I wrote the section from theory--I only have one 88BM with a 7.1 configuration, so I have no way for any real-world testing.
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Yes. Run YPAO and then be sure to switch the PEQ to Through. It defaults to Flat after running. You'll get an out-of-phase error, but you can ignore it. It will also get speaker sizes and crossovers wrong, so they'll need to be reset.
I just need to run the single position with YPAO, correct?
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post #11575 of 16634 Old 09-06-2016, 06:27 PM
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I just need to run the single position with YPAO, correct?
If YPAO works like Audyssey, the first measurement determines the trims and delays, so yes, one position measurement. Don't forget to zero out the trims after you are finished.
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If YPAO works like Audyssey, the first measurement determines the trims and delays, so yes, one position measurement. Don't forget to zero out the trims after you are finished.

Thanks, I will run YPAO.
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post #11577 of 16634 Old 09-06-2016, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
I just need to run the single position with YPAO, correct?


Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
If YPAO works like Audyssey, the first measurement determines the trims and delays, so yes, one position measurement. Don't forget to zero out the trims after you are finished.

Yes, YPAO works like Audyssey in this regard. No point in running the angle measurement, either. YPAO angle measurement can't "see" the height of the speakers through the 88A processing. Single position will be sufficient.
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post #11578 of 16634 Old 09-07-2016, 05:15 AM
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Did you read the guide update? Each of your two devices has a "reference speaker" upon which delays are calculated. Since the two speakers are different distances from the MLP, a time-alignment is required. Unless you time-align the two 88A's, you have a flawed installation. I assume YPAO sets speaker distances in the AVR, so you should be able to use it to complete the alignment.
Ah hah! This post made me think of an alternative set-up.

If you had two 88a's, and you split the room in half, left and right (okay, the center has to go on one or the other), and the furthest set of speakers (let's say front left and front right) are equidistant from the MLP [and on different 88a's], then, in theory, the units would end up time-aligned without needing Audyssey or YPAO to figure out distances.

If it were me, I'd still run Audyssey/YPAO because it doesn't hurt, and you may find that one 88a is slightly more delayed than the other (due to required filters, maybe?).

But, scratch that, I'd never set it up like that in the first place...but it was a fun thought experiment.

By the way, I only have one 88a, but I've been using this technique for a long time since I run a 9.1 channel system. My two rear surrounds aren't corrected by the 88a, but I still run Audyssey to set the delays for those channels relative to all of the other channels.
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post #11579 of 16634 Old 09-07-2016, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
Ah hah! This post made me think of an alternative set-up.

If you had two 88a's, and you split the room in half, left and right (okay, the center has to go on one or the other), and the furthest set of speakers (let's say front left and front right) are equidistant from the MLP [and on different 88a's], then, in theory, the units would end up time-aligned without needing Audyssey or YPAO to figure out distances.

If it were me, I'd still run Audyssey/YPAO because it doesn't hurt, and you may find that one 88a is slightly more delayed than the other (due to required filters, maybe?).

But, scratch that, I'd never set it up like that in the first place...but it was a fun thought experiment.

By the way, I only have one 88a, but I've been using this technique for a long time since I run a 9.1 channel system. My two rear surrounds aren't corrected by the 88a, but I still run Audyssey to set the delays for those channels relative to all of the other channels.
Your alternative method should work. The weak point, however, is being able to position the two "reference speakers" at exactly the same distance from the MLP. I use a quick Audyssey one-POS calibration to check speaker distances when I am moving things around, so if you are going to use Audyssey anyway, you might as well use it to set the alignment.

Another approach could be used if you were able to precisely measure the distances from the MLP to the ceiling speakers. Once you know the distances, you could calculate and set the delays in the AVR manually.

Regardless, I think using room correction to set the alignment will be the most accurate approach. Measuring distances physically has never worked well for me.
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post #11580 of 16634 Old 09-07-2016, 07:09 AM
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Would it be possible to use the DDRC-88a with active speakers, using the DDRC-88BM to implement the crossover?
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