**miniDSP DDRC-88A Official Thread**8-channel AI/AO Dirac Live in a box - Page 428 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12811 of 16656 Old 02-27-2017, 06:35 AM
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Can you change curves in the Bimmer?
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Unfortunately no, there is no way to change or create curves...everything is locked in at the factory!
But it is a BMW, so we know it is perfect!
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post #12812 of 16656 Old 02-27-2017, 09:48 AM
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But it is a BMW, so we know it is perfect!
Almost Jerry, almost!

It does sound very nice though!

Marantz AV8802A | Wyred 4 Sound (500W X 3, 250W X 2) | Marantz MM7025 (140W X 2) | Oppo UDP-203 | Roon ROCK Music Server | ATV4K | Vero 4K+ | LG OLED 65E6P | MiniDSP DDRC-88A | Oppo PM1's | APC H-15 power conditioners (x2) | GoldenEar Triton 1's (FL & FR) | SuperCenter XL (C) | Aon 2's (SL & SR) | SuperSat 3's (FHL & FHR) | SVS PB13-Ultra | Unraid NAS 40TB
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post #12813 of 16656 Old 02-27-2017, 11:46 AM
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A quote from Mathias Johansson (Dirac founder) from this month's Sound&Vision magazine: "...there will be a completely new Dirac Live calibration software coming out in a few months. Even more exciting, 2017 will be the year that we finally showcase a Dirac Unison calibration tool for hi-if use."

Anyone excited?
Cant wait this is great news!





GOOD TIMES:

Listening Preference
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post #12814 of 16656 Old 02-28-2017, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The Dirac calibration has nothing to do with the bass management functions of the 88A. You should conduct the Dirac calibration and then set up bass management. The guide linked in my sig has instructions on how to do all this.
I've been away from AVS for a while dealing with personal issues and missed the whole BM upgrade and everything everyone has learned. I have lots of catching up to do but want to ask you (Jerry) this one question. Does the BM upgrade eliminate the need for your 2x4? I'm thinking not because there are only 8 channels and I know you have 4 subs.

Thanks.

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post #12815 of 16656 Old 02-28-2017, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
I've been away from AVS for a while dealing with personal issues and missed the whole BM upgrade and everything everyone has learned. I have lots of catching up to do but want to ask you (Jerry) this one question. Does the BM upgrade eliminate the need for your 2x4? I'm thinking not because there are only 8 channels and I know you have 4 subs.

Thanks.
You are correct--it is a matter of how many channels you have on the 88A to allocate to the subs. For example, if you have a 5.1 configuration, you would have channels for three subs, and a 2x4 would not be needed. I have a 7.1 configuration, so I continue to use an external 2x4 to consolidate the subs onto the single available channel on the 88A. And it is quite effective in this configuration. Welcome back!
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post #12816 of 16656 Old 02-28-2017, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You are correct--it is a matter of how many channels you have on the 88A to allocate to the subs. For example, if you have a 5.1 configuration, you would have channels for three subs, and a 2x4 would not be needed. I have a 7.1 configuration, so I continue to use an external 2x4 to consolidate the subs onto the single available channel on the 88A. And it is quite effective in this configuration. Welcome back!
Thanks and glad to be back. Now I need to catch-up and figure out if the BM upgrade is good for me and if I upgrade 1 or both of my 88a's.

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post #12817 of 16656 Old 02-28-2017, 07:37 PM
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Thanks and glad to be back. Now I need to catch-up and figure out if the BM upgrade is good for me and if I upgrade 1 or both of my 88a's.
One upgrade license can be used on both 88A's. The bass management functionality in the 88BM is more flexible than the bass management in your pre-pro. And there are other neat features, like being able to see the Dirac trims and delays, and having an output screen with meters, per-channel delays, muting, and PEQ. For $100, it's a really good deal.
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post #12818 of 16656 Old 03-02-2017, 04:22 PM
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Exclamation Confused on MiniDSP capacity on Multi Subs!

I recently wrote an email to the MiniDSP support and the response was confusing. I asked some questions about the DDRC-24m and they responded the following:

Quote:
The DDRC-24 is a stereo Dirac Live (i.e. performing correction and time aligment on stereo units via Dirac Live.). I’m not sure of your application but it sounds like you’re trying to do a multisub setup?

If so, the MSO optimizer could be a better way to do it. It’s explained here on the DDRC-88A but the concept is the same for DDRC-24. https://www.minidsp.com/applications...-sub-optimizer

Bottom line, you need to first configure your unit first via REW + MSO software. THen you can run Dirac on top.
Then the confusion started for me as the DDRC-24 description said it have Bass Management support... something that the DDRC-88A does not have by default. This is the first contradiction on information received.

The second is that the Subwoofer integration with the DDRC-24 saids that "If you are using two subwoofers, you can connect the second to output 4." So, the DDRC-24 can manage or it cannot manage two subs?

If the DDRC-24 can manage two subs (as I suspect because have Bass Management and 2 outputs for that).... can it do it satisfying or taking into account what I asked?
1) Will the DDRC-24 provide a smoother room response of multiple subs (up to 2) while retaining time and phase coherency of both units at the Listening Position?

2) Will the DDRC-24 adjust the distance and polarity of the 2 subs individually then EQ's them as a whole?

3) If the Subs (up to 2) are placed on different locations, will the DDRC-24 EQ them considering levels, distances and other individual factors?

4) Will the DDRC-24 adjust each subs (up to 2) phase and polarity and provide a combined Sub output sound?


My current situation is that I have an AVR that has weak Bass Management. I plan to use the DDRC-24 to manage exclusively the bass. I currently only have 1 sub, but I plan to add 1 more (up to 2, no more) in about 1 yr. Can I use the DDRC-24 to manage (up to 2) subs into a single response and have no issue managing different levels, distances/delays, phases, spatial variation, etc...... or I really need the DDRC-88A and the REW and MSO stuff?

Last edited by jm10; 03-02-2017 at 04:29 PM.
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post #12819 of 16656 Old 03-02-2017, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jm10 View Post
I recently wrote an email to the MiniDSP support and the response was confusing. I asked some questions about the DDRC-24m and they responded the following:



Then the confusion started for me as the DDRC-24 description said it have Bass Management support... something that the DDRC-88A does not have by default. This is the first contradiction on information received.

The second is that the Subwoofer integration with the DDRC-24 saids that "If you are using two subwoofers, you can connect the second to output 4." So, the DDRC-24 can manage or it cannot manage two subs?

If the DDRC-24 can manage two subs (as I suspect because have Bass Management and 2 outputs for that).... can it do it satisfying or taking into account what I asked?
1) Will the DDRC-24 provide a smoother room response of multiple subs (up to 2) while retaining time and phase coherency of both units at the Listening Position?

2) Will the DDRC-24 adjust the distance and polarity of the 2 subs individually then EQ's them as a whole?

3) If the Subs (up to 2) are placed on different locations, will the DDRC-24 EQ them considering levels, distances and other individual factors?

4) Will the DDRC-24 adjust each subs (up to 2) phase and polarity and provide a combined Sub output sound?


My current situation is that I have an AVR that has weak Bass Management. I plan to use the DDRC-24 to manage exclusively the bass. I currently only have 1 sub, but I plan to add 1 more (up to 2, no more) in about 1 yr. Can I use the DDRC-24 to manage (up to 2) subs into a single response and have no issue managing different levels, distances/delays, phases, spatial variation, etc...... or I really need the DDRC-88A and the REW and MSO stuff?
Since this is the 88A thread, you may not find many here who are familiar with the 24 and its capabilities. Is there not a DDRC-24 thread where you can ask these questions?

BTW, what is "Weak bass management"?
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post #12820 of 16656 Old 03-02-2017, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Since this is the 88A thread, you may not find many here who are familiar with the 24 and its capabilities. Is there not a DDRC-24 thread where you can ask these questions?

BTW, what is "Weak bass management"?
I post it here as the miniDSP support personnel routed me to the DDRC-88A claiming its the same process (or limitations).

Weak Bass Management its related to the limited A3060 SubEq down only to 31.5 Hz in Auto Calibration. Also, I think YAPAO can't compare with Diract... but I could miss Diract more on Stereo than on HT Movie setup...thus the 24 unit seems like a 2 in one solution for me... so I can use it only for Sub EQ in HT Movie... and use it for Stereo L+R+Sub for Music Listening...but still, I am confused about its capabilities and/or limitations and/or similarities with the 88A.
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post #12821 of 16656 Old 03-03-2017, 03:02 AM
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One upgrade license can be used on both 88A's.
What do you mean by that? I have two 88As, bought a BM licence and upgraded one 88A. The licence key does not work for the other 88A. I just tried it.
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post #12822 of 16656 Old 03-03-2017, 06:02 AM
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What do you mean by that? I have two 88As, bought a BM licence and upgraded one 88A. The licence key does not work for the other 88A. I just tried it.
I believe a thread participant reported that one license could be used for two devices. I have no personal experience, so my recommendation would be to ask the question to MiniDSP Support. When you find out one way or the other, please report the results here. I don't want to be in a position of providing incorrect advice.
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post #12823 of 16656 Old 03-03-2017, 06:44 AM
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What do you mean by that? I have two 88As, bought a BM licence and upgraded one 88A. The licence key does not work for the other 88A. I just tried it.

You still have to send the hex output of the other unit to MiniDSP for an activation license. One upgrade license covers all units, but each unit must be separately authorized.

Send an email with subject - DDRC-880BM Activation Request to [email protected]

Chris
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post #12824 of 16656 Old 03-03-2017, 06:57 AM
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You still have to send the hex output of the other unit to MiniDSP for an activation license. One upgrade license covers all units, but each unit must be separately authorized.

Send an email with subject - DDRC-880BM Activation Request to [email protected]

Chris
Why are you using a Rachael Maddow avitar, Chris?
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post #12825 of 16656 Old 03-03-2017, 02:13 PM
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Question regarding Mid-bass: When we are composing the custom curve, we have full flexibility of controlling of how we want the base. Currently, I"m using 8dB curve that Jerry shared months ago. I think it flattens out by 300Hz but drops up to 6db (I think) by 150Hz which leads to my question. What's the general range of mid-base? Is it more like 100-200 or 100-300?
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post #12826 of 16656 Old 03-03-2017, 02:31 PM
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Question regarding Mid-bass: When we are composing the custom curve, we have full flexibility of controlling of how we want the base. Currently, I"m using 8dB curve that Jerry shared months ago. I think it flattens out by 300Hz but drops up to 6db (I think) by 150Hz which leads to my question. What's the general range of mid-base? Is it more like 100-200 or 100-300?
It can be any frequency range you want. Take a look at the attached link to see what you would like to emphasize.

http://www.independentrecording.net/...in_display.htm
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post #12827 of 16656 Old 03-04-2017, 07:58 PM
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Took my first swing at a calibration today with my 88A and my Marantz 8802A. I have to say it is not what I expected. I really enjoy what it did for music but I am not a huge fan of what it did for movies. Movies seem less dynamic if that makes any sense. I wish there was a way to put the 88A in bypass for movies I think I would prefer it.
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post #12828 of 16656 Old 03-04-2017, 08:46 PM
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Took my first swing at a calibration today with my 88A and my Marantz 8802A. I have to say it is not what I expected. I really enjoy what it did for music but I am not a huge fan of what it did for movies. Movies seem less dynamic if that makes any sense. I wish there was a way to put the 88A in bypass for movies I think I would prefer it.
If you could articulate what you mean by "less dynamic", you could use the target editor to fashion what you are looking for. And you have the ability to turn Dirac off and on with the remote control. Isn't this what you mean by "bypass"?
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post #12829 of 16656 Old 03-04-2017, 08:56 PM
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If you could articulate what you mean by "less dynamic", you could use the target editor to fashion what you are looking for. And you have the ability to turn Dirac off and on with the remote control. Isn't this what you mean by "bypass"?
Really hard to describe what I am hearing but even the wife commented that she did not care for it with movies. Just sounded a little lifeless I guess. I was fooling enough to think for a grand they would give you a remote but much to my suprise the remote is sold separately.
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post #12830 of 16656 Old 03-04-2017, 09:38 PM
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Really hard to describe what I am hearing but even the wife commented that she did not care for it with movies. Just sounded a little lifeless I guess. I was fooling enough to think for a grand they would give you a remote but much to my suprise the remote is sold separately.
There is no separately sold remote. The only way to control the 88A remotely is to program a smart remote like a Harmony.

Another way to defeat Dirac for movies, if you want to do that, is to simply switch to an unused pre-set. You can do that on the front panel--no remote is required.

So you have two options. Either live with what you have and be disappointed, or you could try and figure out why you don't like what you are hearing and fix it. Is it just room correction you don't like? Have you used other room correction products like Audyssey? Most of us here think Dirac is an improvement over Audyssey or MCACC, so maybe you did something wrong.
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post #12831 of 16656 Old 03-04-2017, 09:45 PM
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Really hard to describe what I am hearing but even the wife commented that she did not care for it with movies. Just sounded a little lifeless I guess. I was fooling enough to think for a grand they would give you a remote but much to my suprise the remote is sold separately.
Now I remember talking to you previously. You said in the 8802 thread that you didn't care for Audyssey and preferred listening in Direct mode. You also expressed an opinion that you thought Dirac iwould be what you needed. Now I understand why you are disappointed.
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post #12832 of 16656 Old 03-05-2017, 09:10 AM
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Now I remember talking to you previously. You said in the 8802 thread that you didn't care for Audyssey and preferred listening in Direct mode. You also expressed an opinion that you thought Dirac iwould be what you needed. Now I understand why you are disappointed.
You had asked me to clarify, I don't want to read into your response that you now understand my disappointment why did you have that expectation Jerry?

I think the Marantz 8802A does a pretty darn goes job in direct and pure direct mode..Pretty darn transparent, I just do not care for the Audyssey room correction and what it does in my room. The 88A is a tweakers paradise, maybe I just need to massage it more but the standard target curves just was not my cup of tea, no sin in that, right?
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post #12833 of 16656 Old 03-05-2017, 09:28 AM
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You had asked me to clarify, I don't want to read into your response that you now understand my disappointment why did you have that expectation Jerry?

I think the Marantz 8802A does a pretty darn goes job in direct and pure direct mode..Pretty darn transparent, I just do not care for the Audyssey room correction and what it does in my room. The 88A is a tweakers paradise, maybe I just need to massage it more but the standard target curves just was not my cup of tea, no sin in that, right?
You may want to measure your room response in direct mode to see what interaction your room is having. This may reveal what response your ears "like" and then you can tailor the Dirac target curve accordingly.
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post #12834 of 16656 Old 03-05-2017, 10:43 AM
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You had asked me to clarify, I don't want to read into your response that you now understand my disappointment why did you have that expectation Jerry?

I think the Marantz 8802A does a pretty darn goes job in direct and pure direct mode..Pretty darn transparent, I just do not care for the Audyssey room correction and what it does in my room. The 88A is a tweakers paradise, maybe I just need to massage it more but the standard target curves just was not my cup of tea, no sin in that, right?


I was never a fan of audyssey xt32 either and was super disappointed in Dirac when I first got it. The auto target response that it gives is a whole lot of weak sauce. After creating some custom curves (gradual 4.5db boost 150hz down and gradual -3db 10k up) my system came alive, it was basically a nicely refined version of the sound I already enjoyed. Took a lot of time and tweaking but now when I do the Dirac on/off switch I most definitely prefer Dirac on.


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post #12835 of 16656 Old 03-05-2017, 10:47 AM
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You had asked me to clarify, I don't want to read into your response that you now understand my disappointment why did you have that expectation Jerry?

I think the Marantz 8802A does a pretty darn goes job in direct and pure direct mode..Pretty darn transparent, I just do not care for the Audyssey room correction and what it does in my room. The 88A is a tweakers paradise, maybe I just need to massage it more but the standard target curves just was not my cup of tea, no sin in that, right?
You seem to have been offended by my response--that was not my intent, and I apologize.

I am a firm believer that room correction enhances the quality of audio, and that most systems will sound better if room correction has been applied correctly. Of course, there may be exceptions in well-planned listening rooms with good acoustics, and with exceptional audio equipment. In such rooms, systems may well sound better in Direct mode with no correction. But in the majority of listening rooms, with typical acoustic issues, room correction can significantly overcome the issues, resulting in better sound. So when I hear someone report that things sound better with room correction turned off, the first thing that comes to mind is, is there something flawed with how room correction was implemented?

As @Molon_Labe has recommended, and assuming you are interested in getting to the bottom of this, the next logical step would be to measure your room's response, both with Dirac on and in bypass mode, to see what the differences are. With this knowledge, you can take appropriate actions, whether it be altering the target curve, re-arranging speaker placements, or adding room treatments. Of course, if you are unwilling to do this, you can follow my tips on how to place the 88A into bypass mode (either with a remote command, or by manually switching to an unused preset using the front panel controls) and be done with it.
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post #12836 of 16656 Old 03-05-2017, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by bouf0010 View Post
I was never a fan of audyssey xt32 either and was super disappointed in Dirac when I first got it. The auto target response that it gives is a whole lot of weak sauce. After creating some custom curves (gradual 4.5db boost 150hz down and gradual -3db 10k up) my system came alive, it was basically a nicely refined version of the sound I already enjoyed. Took a lot of time and tweaking but now when I do the Dirac on/off switch I most definitely prefer Dirac on.
Could you post your target curve.
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post #12837 of 16656 Old 03-05-2017, 11:28 AM
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Could you post your target curve.
Here you go - from 10k to 20k its down 4db, not the 3 i mentioned.

I use a very similar one for surrounds except i cut off the eq at around 75hz.

For my sub I keep it flat from 18hz to 200hz and my AVR takes care of the lpf at 120hz.

Hope this helps!
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post #12838 of 16656 Old 03-05-2017, 11:50 AM
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Could you post your target curve.
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Here you go - from 10k to 20k its down 4db, not the 3 i mentioned.

I use a very similar one for surrounds except i cut off the eq at around 75hz.

For my sub I keep it flat from 18hz to 200hz and my AVR takes care of the lpf at 120hz.

Hope this helps!
Here is a comparison between what Bouf and I have. Note that the overall shape is similar. The differences are the "height" of the target curve, which results in a higher output level for may speakers, and the overall boost (6.5dB on my curve vs. 5dB on Bouf's curve). I suspect that there would be little or no audible difference between the two.

@bouf0010 , when you say you keep the sub "flat", keep in mind that the target curve design objective articulated in my guide is that all speakers, including the sub, should have a target curve of the same basic shape over the range one octave below the crossover to one octave above the crossover. Does your sub target have a different shape? Of course, you don't need to be following my guidelines, but I am just curious.
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post #12839 of 16656 Old 03-05-2017, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Here is a comparison between what Bouf and I have. Note that the overall shape is similar. The differences are the "height" of the target curve, which results in a higher output level for may speakers, and the overall boost (6.5dB on my curve vs. 5dB on Bouf's curve). I suspect that there would be little or no audible difference between the two.


@bouf0010 , when you say you keep the sub "flat", keep in mind that the target curve design objective articulated in my guide is that all speakers, including the sub, should have a target curve of the same basic shape over the range one octave below the crossover to one octave above the crossover. Does your sub target have a different shape? Of course, you don't need to be following my guidelines, but I am just curious.


My sub does have a different shape - I found that the combination of a similar target curve and the 120hz lpf on my 5508 (that I can't turn off) resulted in too much drop in the 60-100hz region and just neutered my midbass and greatly reduced my TR in my nearfields and mbms.


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post #12840 of 16656 Old 03-05-2017, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bouf0010 View Post
My sub does have a different shape - I found that the combination of a similar target curve and the 120hz lpf on my 5508 (that I can't turn off) resulted in too much drop in the 60-100hz region and just neutered my midbass and greatly reduced my TR in my nearfields and mbms.


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The important think is that your curve meets your tastes--that's how the target curve editor is so powerful.
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