**miniDSP DDRC-88A Official Thread**8-channel AI/AO Dirac Live in a box - Page 430 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12871 of 16655 Old 03-12-2017, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post



I guess my next step will be to try another calibration tomorrow to see if the issue persists.

Interested to see how the next calibration goes. Also wonder if you load an old project and set a new target, does it look right. (Trying to isolate if it's a measurement issue.)
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post #12872 of 16655 Old 03-12-2017, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
For the first time, I have had seriously flawed results with a Dirac calibration. The issue is with the delays set by Dirac. I have attached two screenshots below, the first one showing delays from 3/3, my last "good" calibration, and the second one showing delays from today's "bad" calibration. The delays for the "bad" calibration are way off. The speakers have not moved an inch between the two calibrations. The only thing that has changed is I now have a new power amp. Based on my understanding of power amplification, the electronics should not be affecting delays at all.

The audio is clearly flawed with today's calibration. Listening to human voices, there is a definite reverberation indicative of timing issues. When I switch between today's calibration and the previous one, the reverberation goes away.

Does anyone have a theory about what might be going on here?

Edit: I just looked at the impulse responses for the two calibrations (shown below). Obviously something wrong with the bad calibration.
Could be firmware related. I assume you have upgraded firmware but always retained the previous calibration, so no issues became apparent. This is the first time you did a calibration on newer code. Hopefully just a bad calibration run - it happens.
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post #12873 of 16655 Old 03-12-2017, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Could be firmware related. I assume you have upgraded firmware but always retained the previous calibration, so no issues became apparent. This is the first time you did a calibration on newer code. Hopefully just a bad calibration run - it happens.
There was no firmware upgrade--I have been at the latest version since it was released, and this is not the first calibration on this version. I am planning on doing another calibration tomorrow AM to see if the bad results were a one-time anomaly. I have reported to MiniDSP Support as well, so I could have an answer from them by tomorrow.
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post #12874 of 16655 Old 03-13-2017, 07:08 AM
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Thumbs up

I just completed a one-measurement calibration, and the results are encouraging. The LCR speakers are now perfectly aligned, and the Dirac delays seem to be completely normal now. I'll proceed with completing the full 9-point calibration, but since delays are set during the first measurement, I don't expect things to go south again.
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post #12875 of 16655 Old 03-13-2017, 08:52 AM
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In your 88A calibration guide you said it is important to set the volume level at exactly -12, can i ask why exactly -12? and you also said adjust the volume using subwoofer gain knob ..what if i have more gain set in my subwoofer and adjust to -12 (lower it) using the channel volume slider ? does this lead to lower sub volume after dirac calibration?
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post #12876 of 16655 Old 03-13-2017, 08:52 AM
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Smile Success!

I have completed the full 9-point calibration, applied my custom targets, and measured the results. Everything is perfectly normal now. So it looks like the bad result I had yesterday was a one-time anomaly. The remaining outstanding issue is what caused the bad calibration. I am waiting for MiniDSP to opine on this.

Time for a well-deserved nap.
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post #12877 of 16655 Old 03-13-2017, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by hifikid80 View Post
In your 88A calibration guide you said it is important to set the volume level at exactly -12, can i ask why exactly -12? and you also said adjust the volume using subwoofer gain knob ..what if i have more gain set in my subwoofer and adjust to -12 (lower it) using the channel volume slider ? does this lead to lower sub volume after dirac calibration?
The objective is to maintain output levels in the Green area during the calibration sweeps. As you move the mic around to the nine measurement positions, you will notice that output levels for various speakers will be higher or lower than -12, depending on mic location. To ensure that the output readings remain in the Green area, starting with levels in the middle (i.e. -12) results in the highest likelihood that the level will stay in the Green area throughout the calibration. So, I view this approach as a common-sense best practice, not an absolute rule. Why you would not want to follow this is curious.

As for the sub level, I am not sure one approach is absolutely better than the other, but I ask again, why are you questioning the recommended approach? Is it difficult to adjust the sub amp gain control? If everyone here's to a standard calibration technique, trouble-shooting issues is easier.

And there is one recommendation you should adhere to in order to get a good calibration--make sure all your levels are as close to the same (recommended -12) before proceeding. Otherwise, your output levels after the calibration has completed will not be optimized.
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post #12878 of 16655 Old 03-13-2017, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The objective is to maintain output levels in the Green area during the calibration sweeps. As you move the mic around to the nine measurement positions, you will notice that output levels for various speakers will be higher or lower than -12, depending on mic location. To ensure that the output readings remain in the Green area, starting with levels in the middle (i.e. -12) results in the highest likelihood that the level will stay in the Green area throughout the calibration. So, I view this approach as a common-sense best practice, not an absolute rule. Why you would not want to follow this is curious.

As for the sub level, I am not sure one approach is absolutely better than the other, but I ask again, why are you questioning the recommended approach? Is it difficult to adjust the sub amp gain control? If everyone here's to a standard calibration technique, trouble-shooting issues is easier.

And there is one recommendation you should adhere to in order to get a good calibration--make sure all your levels are as close to the same (recommended -12) before proceeding. Otherwise, your output levels after the calibration has completed will not be optimized.
i am using Arcam 390. when i adjust the sub exactly to -12 during DL calibration using sub knob then after the calibration it boosts the sub level to +10db. if i increase the gain before and adjust to -12 in volume channel slider in DLCT then it is around 0..
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post #12879 of 16655 Old 03-13-2017, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by hifikid80 View Post
i am using Arcam 390. when i adjust the sub exactly to -12 during DL calibration using sub knob then after the calibration it boosts the sub level to +10db. if i increase the gain before and adjust to -12 in volume channel slider in DLCT then it is around 0..
Wasn't this discussed earlier, that Arcam is artificially boosting the sub channel? Regardless, my advice was given under the assumption that you were using the MiniDSP 88A, which is the topic of this thread. Since you are using different equipment, my advice may or may not apply. I encourage you to experiment, and report your findings in the Arcam thread.
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post #12880 of 16655 Old 03-13-2017, 04:01 PM
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I recently wrote an email to the MiniDSP support and the response was confusing. I asked some questions about the DDRC-24m and they responded the following:



Then the confusion started for me as the DDRC-24 description said it have Bass Management support... something that the DDRC-88A does not have by default. This is the first contradiction on information received.

The second is that the Subwoofer integration with the DDRC-24 saids that "If you are using two subwoofers, you can connect the second to output 4." So, the DDRC-24 can manage or it cannot manage two subs?

If the DDRC-24 can manage two subs (as I suspect because have Bass Management and 2 outputs for that).... can it do it satisfying or taking into account what I asked?
1) Will the DDRC-24 provide a smoother room response of multiple subs (up to 2) while retaining time and phase coherency of both units at the Listening Position?

2) Will the DDRC-24 adjust the distance and polarity of the 2 subs individually then EQ's them as a whole?

3) If the Subs (up to 2) are placed on different locations, will the DDRC-24 EQ them considering levels, distances and other individual factors?

4) Will the DDRC-24 adjust each subs (up to 2) phase and polarity and provide a combined Sub output sound?


My current situation is that I have an AVR that has weak Bass Management. I plan to use the DDRC-24 to manage exclusively the bass. I currently only have 1 sub, but I plan to add 1 more (up to 2, no more) in about 1 yr. Can I use the DDRC-24 to manage (up to 2) subs into a single response and have no issue managing different levels, distances/delays, phases, spatial variation, etc...... or I really need the DDRC-88A and the REW and MSO stuff?
Wish i knew too. Very little info if any on any of that,on any forum.Limited users or something. I you get answers please let me know. Im humdrum31 here and just drumhum at minidsp forum. Thanks in advance
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post #12881 of 16655 Old 03-14-2017, 12:04 AM
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Wish i knew too. Very little info if any on any of that,on any forum.Limited users or something. I you get answers please let me know. Im humdrum31 here and just drumhum at minidsp forum. Thanks in advance
Why don't you guys simply read the manual of each device? They are freely available.

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post #12882 of 16655 Old 03-22-2017, 06:21 PM
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Hi @AustinJerry ,

How are you hope you well, Long time since i was here,

yesterday i was listening to eric clapton bluray concert and notice something was wrong with the sound and especially the bass, ( i have 2 SVS SB ULTRA 13 connected to 88A on CH3&6 outputs, 5.2 system) i open the 88A BM application and on the output tab i had 19msc delay on CH3 and 2msc on CH7 (two of the subs are located each in line 1 meter away on the left and the right of the center speaker which is in front of my MLP). i found it very odd that i have 19msc delay on my subwoofers. my 3yo daughter sometime playing with the 88A knob but she normally change the configuration TAB and volume. i did the calibration few months ago and can't remember if after the calibration DL is uploading this parameters to output tab as well as DL tab or just to DL tab? if just to DL tab can my daughter change the delay parameters using the 88A knob?

any way i have uploaded the 88A pre config setting I saved (LFE Mgt,routing, mixer and output tabs) and then the latest DL config file, once done that the sound and bass was much better.
on the output tab everything looked it was on default but few things are still unclear, can you let me know the following:

1. when i upload DL calibration to 88A does it add PEQ or any other parameters on the output tab?
2. In my setup i use on the 88A CH 3 sub input and CH3&7 for the sub output, how does DL calibrate the subwoofers levels individually if they are using the same input?
3. before i run the DL calibration do i need to level the subwoofer individually or keep it at the same level?
4. when listening both music and movies, I like my bass very strong ,punchy and hitting my chest, how can i improve it if is still weak after DL calibration?

Thank you

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Originally Posted by avsion View Post
Hi @AustinJerry ,

How are you hope you well, Long time since i was here,

1. when i upload DL calibration to 88A does it add PEQ or any other parameters on the output tab?
2. In my setup i use on the 88A CH 3 sub input and CH3&7 for the sub output, how does DL calibrate the subwoofers levels individually if they are using the same input?
3. before i run the DL calibration do i need to level the subwoofer individually or keep it at the same level?
4. when listening both music and movies, I like my bass very strong ,punchy and hitting my chest, how can i improve it if is still weak after DL calibration?

Thank you
Welcome back!

1. The Dirac Live project is completely separate from any of the settings in the 88A bass management plugin. So, Dirac will not load any PEQ, nor will it alter any delays or set any of the bass management settings. How those delays were set on your system is a mystery.

2. When you are using the 88A with two subs, there is typically a single LFE input from the AVR connected to input 3. This signal, along with any re-directed bass, is routed to the Dirac input, still on channel 3. It is only after The Dirac block that the bass signal gets re-directed to the two subs on output channels 3 and 7 in the mixer block. I hope this answers the question.

3. I typically gain-match the subs prior to running Dirac Live. The gain-matched level should be set so that the sub output reaches the -12 level when generating the output tones in the first step of the Dirac calibration. Accurate sub level is very important.

4. If you read the Dirac custom target guide linked in my sig, you will learn a procedure to apply a bass boost to the Dirac calibration. The amount of boost can be tailored to your tastes. For example, I have a 6.5dB boost for my system, and it adds just the right amount of bass for me.

Good luck!
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post #12884 of 16655 Old 03-22-2017, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

3. I typically gain-match the subs prior to running Dirac Live. The gain-matched level should be set so that the sub output reaches the -12 level when generating the output tones in the first step of the Dirac calibration. Accurate sub level is very important.
Thanks Jerry for clarifying that,

how do i gain-match 2 identical subwoofers for my setup? use the guide in your sig or there is different way/guide for the 88A?

Thank you

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post #12885 of 16655 Old 03-23-2017, 06:08 AM
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Thanks Jerry for clarifying that,

how do i gain-match 2 identical subwoofers for my setup? use the guide in your sig or there is different way/guide for the 88A?

Thank you
The 2x4 setup guide in my sig describes the process, which would be the same for the 88A.
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post #12886 of 16655 Old 03-25-2017, 11:37 AM
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I followed AustinJerry's derailed instructions and the AVR DL set-up menu says the commands were learned. However the unit responds to none of the learned commands. miniDSP's software isn't particularly intuitive and maybe I have missed turning on something or checking a box.

Thanks.

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There are no specific IR codes... you can use any button from any remote to control the 88BM. What I did was add a device that does not exist in my system and used buttons from that remote to control the 88. The 88BM manual explains how to program a remote for it (but not specifically a harmony).


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post #12887 of 16655 Old 03-25-2017, 02:36 PM
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it seems I am having some nulls any suggestions?
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post #12888 of 16655 Old 03-25-2017, 02:49 PM
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it seems I am having some nulls any suggestions?
What does "All before" look like?

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post #12889 of 16655 Old 03-25-2017, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mraub View Post
I followed AustinJerry's derailed instructions and the AVR DL set-up menu says the commands were learned. However the unit responds to none of the learned commands. miniDSP's software isn't particularly intuitive and maybe I have missed turning on something or checking a box.

Thanks.
You have not given us much to work with. When you say AVR, do you mean an 88A? If you indeed followed my instructions, the remote should be working properly. What remote are you using?
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post #12890 of 16655 Old 03-26-2017, 09:48 AM
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@AustinJerry , here is the link of Dirac file that you asked for from REW thread
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1qmof0chvhy5q2c/8dB.dprj?dl=0

You will notice a 6dB fall in high frequency even though we fixed the issue. This fall is not the room but the screen. I use Perf screen and it does effect high frequency that much. But after Dirac calibration, I get a flat curve since I'm fixing up to 20k.
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post #12891 of 16655 Old 03-26-2017, 04:29 PM
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it seems I am having some nulls any suggestions?
Location Location Location. Best way to get rid of nulls is to change the location of your subs. Room treatment at these low frequency is HARD. Location is your best friend. Is that only one sub? If yes then consider having another sub. If that response includes more than one sub then placement should help you.
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post #12892 of 16655 Old 03-26-2017, 06:00 PM
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I have the AVR DL; there's a lot more activity in this thread and I figure the devices probably work about the same as far a remote control goes. I use a Harmony Elite. The commands show as learned and show up on the Harmony. The remote is sending out an IR pulse; I just can't get the miniDSP to respond.


Thanks for any suggestions.




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You have not given us much to work with. When you say AVR, do you mean an 88A? If you indeed followed my instructions, the remote should be working properly. What remote are you using?

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@AustinJerry , here is the link of Dirac file that you asked for from REW thread
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1qmof0chvhy5q2c/8dB.dprj?dl=0

You will notice a 6dB fall in high frequency even though we fixed the issue. This fall is not the room but the screen. I use Perf screen and it does effect high frequency that much. But after Dirac calibration, I get a flat curve since I'm fixing up to 20k.
I think the custom target looks pretty good. I would drag the left curtain to 35Hz for the LR pair and the Center, and I would set the crossover to 100Hz. No need to apply filters to the region where the speaker response has fallen off more than 10dB. Besides, your sub(s) are handling those lower frequencies anyway. The sub channel looks especially good.
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Why don't you guys simply read the manual of each device? They are freely available.
pffft... real men dont read manuals... that is like asking for directions... please.... hehehe... : rolleyes:

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post #12895 of 16655 Old 03-27-2017, 08:33 AM
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pffft... real men dont read manuals... that is like asking for directions... please.... hehehe... : rolleyes:
Exactly the reason why your journey takes a lot longer than needed

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post #12896 of 16655 Old 03-27-2017, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I think the custom target looks pretty good. I would drag the left curtain to 35Hz for the LR pair and the Center, and I would set the crossover to 100Hz. No need to apply filters to the region where the speaker response has fallen off more than 10dB. Besides, your sub(s) are handling those lower frequencies anyway. The sub channel looks especially good.
Good point. Will do that. The strange thing is that when I was doing a listening test, bass didn't sound as punchy as it used to. It was louder but not punchier. Couldn't understand the reason at first. FR looked good, Waterfall is not bad either, room doesn't seem to have much ringing so where did my punchy bass go. Just before I called the day off yesterday, I decided to check the volume on AVR. It was at 0. Woowww. The same movie I tested many times and I had volume at -4. I did change the room treatment but for the most part, I replaced Rockwool with 703 and also reduced the panels. So besides replaces and reducing the treatment, only other change was to to move 10" forward. How after all these changes, I"m increasing volume from -4 to 0 is beyond my understanding. But that clarifies the bass not as crisp. Custom curve is 8dB and now that I can easily push the volume to +4 from what I was listening before, this 8dB is most likely producing a bit too much base.

What's the relationship b/w the volume and db? In other words, if I change volume from -4 to -3, is that a 1dB increase on base as well?
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post #12897 of 16655 Old 03-27-2017, 11:23 AM
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Good point. Will do that. The strange thing is that when I was doing a listening test, bass didn't sound as punchy as it used to. It was louder but not punchier. Couldn't understand the reason at first. FR looked good, Waterfall is not bad either, room doesn't seem to have much ringing so where did my punchy bass go. Just before I called the day off yesterday, I decided to check the volume on AVR. It was at 0. Woowww. The same movie I tested many times and I had volume at -4. I did change the room treatment but for the most part, I replaced Rockwool with 703 and also reduced the panels. So besides replaces and reducing the treatment, only other change was to to move 10" forward. How after all these changes, I"m increasing volume from -4 to 0 is beyond my understanding. But that clarifies the bass not as crisp. Custom curve is 8dB and now that I can easily push the volume to +4 from what I was listening before, this 8dB is most likely producing a bit too much base.

What's the relationship b/w the volume and db? In other words, if I change volume from -4 to -3, is that a 1dB increase on base as well?
Output levels can have a strong subjective effect on what we hear. I recommend that you try shifting the vertical position of the target curve. For example, the first screenshot below shows the current target (note that I adjusted the left curtain to 35hZ). The second screenshot shows the same target shape shifted 5dB higher. Shifting the target results in a higher output level to the speakers, requiring a lower MV setting. This could affect the subjective impression that bass output is lower. Give it a try. And make sure you shift all targets higher by 5dB as well, not just the left-right pair.
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post #12898 of 16655 Old 03-27-2017, 11:29 AM
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Output levels can have a strong subjective effect on what we hear. I recommend that you try shifting the vertical position of the target curve. For example, the first screenshot below shows the current target (note that I adjusted the left curtain to 35hZ). The second screenshot shows the same target shape shifted 5dB higher. Shifting the target results in a higher output level to the speakers, requiring a lower MV setting. This could affect the subjective impression that bass output is lower. Give it a try. And make sure you shift all targets higher by 5dB as well, not just the left-right pair.
I know that if we shift the custom curve lower, we have to increase the volume. I have been using your custom curve for a while now and it has always started at 0. I believe the reason you designed the custom curve from 0 is because its easier apply the cut than boosting. So shifting it higher will only make one difference and that is the volume now in avr be more like at -5 than at 0 but that won't change the bass production since we still have 8dB curve. Is my understanding correct?
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post #12899 of 16655 Old 03-27-2017, 11:47 AM
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I know that if we shift the custom curve lower, we have to increase the volume. I have been using your custom curve for a while now and it has always started at 0. I believe the reason you designed the custom curve from 0 is because its easier apply the cut than boosting. So shifting it higher will only make one difference and that is the volume now in avr be more like at -5 than at 0 but that won't change the bass production since we still have 8dB curve. Is my understanding correct?
Yes, the boost will still be 8dB. However, in my case, I was having some difficulty (all in my mind, of course) with raising MV to compensate. If this doesn't bother you, then don't worry about it. That still doesn't address the fact that your perception of the bass is that it isn't as punchy.
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post #12900 of 16655 Old 03-27-2017, 11:58 AM
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Yes, the boost will still be 8dB. However, in my case, I was having some difficulty (all in my mind, of course) with raising MV to compensate. If this doesn't bother you, then don't worry about it. That still doesn't address the fact that your perception of the bass is that it isn't as punchy.
Listening to same material from -4 to 0 also means that more bass is produced. I think I should go with a 6dB curve to see how that sounds. There was a scene ("The Last Witch Hunter") that scare me so much because there was just so much bass in the room.
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