**miniDSP DDRC-88A Official Thread**8-channel AI/AO Dirac Live in a box - Page 523 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15661 of 16788 Old 07-25-2018, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
In many AVRs the internal noise is not affected by the volume control -- the idea being that the user is supposed to dial the gain trims to hit 75 dB. If the volume is active, people then have to know to set it to 0, which can be a shock when the noise is turned off and out comes TV sound a full tilt boogie.
I agree completely. For some reason, I was thinking the Pink noise was coming from REW, which would be affected by the MV. On older D&M AVR's, the speaker level-setting pink noise signal was automatically output at MV=0. On newer models, including my Marantz 8802A, the MV must be manually adjusted to 0 for the level-setting tones. Just another small confusion to consider when developing user guides...
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post #15662 of 16788 Old 07-25-2018, 12:56 PM
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Jerry, I'm curious why changing the output stage gain on the 88A would require a new Dirac run. Seems to me the Dirac would not care, same as it does not care if you adjust the subwoofer gains after the fact.
I guess you are correct. But changing the voltage setting will definitely affect the speaker and subwoofer output levels, which must be accounted for on the NEXT calibration. I guess, being a somewhat obsessive personality type, when I make a change like this, I go through and re-run everything to ensure everything is set properly. If I don't, then insecurity comes between me and the enjoyment of my system. Sometimes this tends to be reflected in advice that I give.
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post #15663 of 16788 Old 07-25-2018, 02:10 PM
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Q.E.D. is Latin for Quo erat demonstratum, meaning “that which has been demonstrated”, and is used in mathematics at the end of an arguement in which a formula has been proven to be correct.
How could I forget that.
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post #15664 of 16788 Old 07-25-2018, 02:22 PM
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In the equation, the ".398" should never change -- it should always be 0.316, which is -10 dB relative to 1.0. The only variable in that equation is the number of speakers, which is either 7 or 5 most commonly.

Where did the -8 dB figure come from?
If this is so, why can't this be written into the Dirac program. The only additional thing the user has to do is change the output trim of the AVR and the output level on the output tab of the BM plug-in.

Or, is this already accounted for when you pick the system configuration during the Dirac setup ( 5.1, 7.1, custom)?
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post #15665 of 16788 Old 07-25-2018, 02:44 PM
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If this is so, why can't this be written into the Dirac program. The only additional thing the user has to do is change the output trim of the AVR and the output level on the output tab of the BM plug-in.

Or, is this already accounted for when you pick the system configuration during the Dirac setup ( 5.1, 7.1, custom)?
Dirac does not handle the details of the bass management plugin. All this stuff is handled in AVRs that incorporate Dirac, like the Datasat and NAD units. The MiniDSP is a building-block approach requiring manual intervention.
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post #15666 of 16788 Old 07-25-2018, 02:52 PM
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Dirac does not handle the details of the bass management plugin. All this stuff is handled in AVRs that incorporate Dirac, like the Datasat and NAD units. The MiniDSP is a building-block approach requiring manual intervention.
But doesn't Dirac account for the 10dB LFE offset during the system set-up ( custom vs 5.1, 7.1)? Or is this something else completely different than the gain alignment excercise?
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post #15667 of 16788 Old 07-25-2018, 02:56 PM
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I paged through this thread - didn't go crazy.


Can I use two to manage a 7.2.4 setup?

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post #15668 of 16788 Old 07-25-2018, 02:58 PM
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But doesn't Dirac account for the 10dB LFE offset during the system set-up ( custom vs 5.1, 7.1)? Or is this something else completely different than the gain alignment excercise?
That is something entirely different. The LFE track is encoded at -10dB. AVR’s are expected to automatically add 10dB to the LFE track to restore the intended balance of the recording. In some setups that use the 88A, an AVR is not used. For example, one might connect the 7.1 outputs from a Disk player directly to the 88A. Since the disk player is not designed to add the 10dB to the LFE track, the 88A has provided a way to do this, i.e. the 5.1 and 7.1 configurations, which should only be used when no AVR is in the setup.

So, this is really not the same as gain management.
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post #15669 of 16788 Old 07-25-2018, 03:00 PM
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But doesn't Dirac account for the 10dB LFE offset during the system set-up ( custom vs 5.1, 7.1)? Or is this something else completely different than the gain alignment excercise?
The particular process that involves the mixing of redirected bass with LFE in the separate LFE Mgt tab is not visible to Dirac. It sees just the summed bass signal AFAIK. I must defer to Jerry on this.
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post #15670 of 16788 Old 07-25-2018, 03:03 PM
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I paged through this thread - didn't go crazy.


Can I use two to manage a 7.2.4 setup?
Going crazy here!

Yes, quite a few people have immersive sound setups involving two 88A’s. The 88A/BM Configurtion Guide linked in my sig has a section on how to do this, starting on page 16. Read it and come back with your questions.

A less complicated approach would be to consider one of the newer processors with Dirac Live that handle more than eight channels. One good example is the NAD processor. There is a good thread here on AVS that discusses NAD processors.
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post #15671 of 16788 Old 07-25-2018, 03:24 PM
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That is something entirely different. The LFE track is encoded at -10dB. AVR’s are expected to automatically add 10dB to the LFE track to restore the intended balance of the recording. In some setups that use the 88A, an AVR is not used. For example, one might connect the 7.1 outputs from a Disk player directly to the 88A. Since the disk player is not designed to add the 10dB to the LFE track, the 88A has provided a way to do this, i.e. the 5.1 and 7.1 configurations, which should only be used when no AVR is in the setup.

So, this is really not the same as gain management.
How would you handle this if you didn't have the BM plug-in?
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post #15672 of 16788 Old 07-25-2018, 03:33 PM
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How would you handle this if you didn't have the BM plug-in?
Recall, the choice to use the 5.1, 7.1, or the Custom configurations is in DLCT, not in the Bass Management plug-in.
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post #15673 of 16788 Old 07-25-2018, 03:46 PM
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Recall, the choice to use the 5.1, 7.1, or the Custom configurations is in DLCT, not in the Bass Management plug-in.
I'm referring to gain management.
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post #15674 of 16788 Old 07-25-2018, 03:52 PM
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I'm referring to gain management.
Well, you quoted the response that dealt with the 10dB boost, which is why I answered the way I did.

So if you are asking how an 88A user without the bass management plug-in would implement gain management, the answer is simple—not possible. Gain management is one of the reasons for purchasing the plug-in.

If I am still not understanding your question....
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post #15675 of 16788 Old 07-25-2018, 05:19 PM
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Well, you quoted the response that dealt with the 10dB boost, which is why I answered the way I did.

So if you are asking how an 88A user without the bass management plug-in would implement gain management, the answer is simple—not possible. Gain management is one of the reasons for purchasing the plug-in.

If I am still not understanding your question....
You just answered it with this post. I'm glad that I bought the plug-in.


Thanks
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post #15676 of 16788 Old 07-26-2018, 04:43 PM
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Yes indeed. Just curious, what is the model of your speaker?
Hi Roger,

My front 3 mains are Mackie HR824's (Mk1) and the 2 surrounds are Mackie HR624's (Mk1). I use to have the matching HRS120 sub,but sold it years ago due to it not having enough headroom and the limiter always kicking in as a result. I ended up replacing it with (previous to knowing all the amplifier issues that plagued these) an epik Empire sub.It gave me a little more headroom and to my amazement it is still working and off the original amp at that! It may very well be the only one left out there still doing so!

That brings up a question about the sub.It also has XLR and RCA inputs,but I've been using the unbalanced RCA connection.Should I switch the DDRC-88a internal setting to 2v for the sub channel as well or leave it at .9v? I'm not sure if the 2v setting would clip the unbalanced (RCA) input of the sub or not.

I've been using the unbalanced connections due to the simplicity of connecting everything to the Audyssey SEQ and SubEQ units that I've been using for last 9 years. These weren't the balanced versions.I would like to switch over to using just the balanced XLR's for the inputs into all the speakers in the near future if everything works out with the DDRC-88a

Thanks for the replies
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post #15677 of 16788 Old 07-26-2018, 09:10 PM
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Hi Roger,

My front 3 mains are Mackie HR824's (Mk1) and the 2 surrounds are Mackie HR624's (Mk1).
Good. Back to your question:
Quote:
Should I also set the output switches in the DDRC-88a for the unbalanced 2V setting, instead of the 0.9v setting
Looking at the specs, it says the speaker outputs 100 dB SPL at 1 meter with -7.5 dBu input (or 0.33V). The 0.9V setting can push them 9 dB harder, which is probably more than you'd need to do. That's with max sensitivity on the 624.

OTOH, if the max setting is a wee bit noisier, one can turn it down and run the 88A in the 2V mode. That's what I'd do, FWIW.

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That brings up a question about the sub. It also has XLR and RCA inputs, but I've been using the unbalanced RCA connection. Should I switch the DDRC-88a internal setting to 2v for the sub channel as well or leave it at .9v? I'm not sure if the 2v setting would clip the unbalanced (RCA) input of the sub or not.
2V is a rather standard level for many years. I'm confident it will not overdrive the sub's inputs stage.

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I've been using the unbalanced connections due to the simplicity of connecting everything to the Audyssey SEQ and SubEQ units that I've been using for last 9 years. These weren't the balanced versions. I would like to switch over to using just the balanced XLR's for the inputs into all the speakers in the near future if everything works out with the DDRC-88a
Yes, I also prefer to use XLR for subs as it can help minimize hum pickup.

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post #15678 of 16788 Old 07-28-2018, 04:04 PM
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Good. Back to your question:

Looking at the specs, it says the speaker outputs 100 dB SPL at 1 meter with -7.5 dBu input (or 0.33V). The 0.9V setting can push them 9 dB harder, which is probably more than you'd need to do. That's with max sensitivity on the 624.

OTOH, if the max setting is a wee bit noisier, one can turn it down and run the 88A in the 2V mode. That's what I'd do, FWIW.
Ok,yes,I missed that.The 824's also have the same spec. If I turned the sensitivity setting on the back of the monitors to the half setting would that be to low of a setting to use if in the 2v mode on the DDRC-88a? The reason I ask is that the half way setting is indented on the monitors and can easily be repeatably set without fiddling.

If setting the DDRC-88a settings to the 0.9v setting,would it be best to use the same setting for the sub or still use the 2v for it?

Thanks for all the help.
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post #15679 of 16788 Old 07-28-2018, 04:16 PM
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If I turned the sensitivity setting on the back of the monitors to the half setting would that be to low of a setting to use if in the 2v mode on the DDRC-88a?
It looks like the detent is at the -10 dB position. If so, you should just squeak by, as the 2V output has 7 dB more swing than the 0.9V.

Quote:
If setting the DDRC-88a settings to the 0.9v setting,would it be best to use the same setting for the sub or still use the 2v for it?
No, the 88A does not care what combination of output settings you use.

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post #15680 of 16788 Old 07-30-2018, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Well, you quoted the response that dealt with the 10dB boost, which is why I answered the way I did.

So if you are asking how an 88A user without the bass management plug-in would implement gain management, the answer is simple—not possible. Gain management is one of the reasons for purchasing the plug-in.

If I am still not understanding your question....
Hey AustinJerry,

How are you doing? I trust all is well. I know I hardly ever say hello unless it is to ask for your help.

So I would just like to take a moment to publicly thank you for all your gracious help thus far.

It is greatly appreciated.

K.
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post #15681 of 16788 Old 07-30-2018, 08:49 AM
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Hey AustinJerry,

How are you doing? I trust all is well. I know I hardly ever say hello unless it is to ask for your help.

So I would just like to take a moment to publicly thank you for all your gracious help thus far.

It is greatly appreciated.

K.
Thanks for the kind words. But let's not forget the key role @Roger Dressler has had in developing the Gain Management procedure. Our thanks to him as well.
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post #15682 of 16788 Old 07-30-2018, 08:57 AM
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Thanks for the kind words. But let's not forget the key role @Roger Dressler has had in developing the Gain Management procedure. Our thanks to him as well.
My apologies Roger.

Thank you as well.

K.
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post #15683 of 16788 Old 08-02-2018, 08:37 AM
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Finally back from vacation, have my system gain managed, and everything sounds great with the exception of one thing. I don't have that chest thumping bass slam that I desire.

@AustinJerry , can you look at my project and create a target with bass boost that will give me the desired effect that I looking for? I can use your developed target curve as a base to go by when developing my own. I'm reading your target curve development manual and learning a lot. Based won what I've read and the DIRAC generated target curves, my cross overs are at 80hz. I've attached the project and would appreciate any help you can give me.


Thanks

Edit: I'm having trouble attaching the project file. It's too big (over 21,000kb even when it is converted to a zip file. any ideas on how to send this?

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Last edited by math wizard; 08-02-2018 at 08:43 AM.
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Finally back from vacation, have my system gain managed, and everything sounds great with the exception of one thing. I don't have that chest thumping bass slam that I desire.

@AustinJerry , can you look at my project and create a target with bass boost that will give me the desired effect that I looking for? I can use your developed target curve as a base to go by when developing my own. I'm reading your target curve development manual and learning a lot. Based won what I've read and the DIRAC generated target curves, my cross overs are at 80hz. I've attached the project and would appreciate any help you can give me.


Thanks

Edit: I'm having trouble attaching the project file. It's too big (over 21,000kb even when it is converted to a zip file. any ideas on how to send this?
For large file - open an account with Dropbox, or similar, then post a sharing link instead
Regards, Mike.

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post #15685 of 16788 Old 08-02-2018, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by math wizard View Post

Edit: I'm having trouble attaching the project file. It's too big (over 21,000kb even when it is converted to a zip file. any ideas on how to send this?
Many of us use Dropbox.com. Once you figure out how to share your file, I will be happy to look t it.
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post #15686 of 16788 Old 08-02-2018, 02:44 PM
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Many of us use Dropbox.com. Once you figure out how to share your file, I will be happy to look t it.
Thanks, that's what I'll do.

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post #15687 of 16788 Old 08-02-2018, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by math wizard View Post
Finally back from vacation, have my system gain managed, and everything sounds great with the exception of one thing. I don't have that chest thumping bass slam that I desire.

@AustinJerry , can you look at my project and create a target with bass boost that will give me the desired effect that I looking for? I can use your developed target curve as a base to go by when developing my own. I'm reading your target curve development manual and learning a lot. Based won what I've read and the DIRAC generated target curves, my cross overs are at 80hz. I've attached the project and would appreciate any help you can give me.


Thanks

Edit: I'm having trouble attaching the project file. It's too big (over 21,000kb even when it is converted to a zip file. any ideas on how to send this?
@AustinJerry here's the link to the file. Can you help me out?

Thanks

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lua6j6bawv...lete.dprj?dl=0

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post #15688 of 16788 Old 08-02-2018, 06:32 PM
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@AustinJerry here's the link to the file. Can you help me out?

Thanks
OK, here is a project with a bass boost custom curve. Based on the "before" frequency response of your speakers, I recommend a 100Hz crossover. If you want to understand this recommendation, go to page 8 in the 88BM Setup Guide linked in my sig. Load up this project and give it a listen and let me know what you think

https://www.dropbox.com/s/101mb6hkkz...2018.dprj?dl=0

Edit: Here is a link to the custom target text files so you can tweak the curve if you want.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nohwutdsvu...rgets.zip?dl=0
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post #15689 of 16788 Old 08-02-2018, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
OK, here is a project with a bass boost custom curve. Based on the "before" frequency response of your speakers, I recommend a 100Hz crossover. If you want to understand this recommendation, go to page 8 in the 88BM Setup Guide linked in my sig. Load up this project and give it a listen and let me know what you think

https://www.dropbox.com/s/101mb6hkkz...2018.dprj?dl=0

Edit: Here is a link to the custom target text files so you can tweak the curve if you want.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nohwutdsvu...rgets.zip?dl=0
Thanks. I'll try it out and report back. I'll also need to modify my output levels.

Thanks

Emotiva MC-700, XPA-2, XPA-3, OPPO UDP-203, minidsp DDRC-88A/BM, Polk Audio RTi12, CSi5, RTiA1, Epik Knight, Sony XBR65X850C, DirecTV C61K (4K Genie Mini), APC H15, Emotiva CMX-2, Harmony Touch, Emotiva X-series Cables
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post #15690 of 16788 Old 08-02-2018, 07:52 PM
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Thanks. I'll try it out and report back. I'll also need to modify my output levels.

Thanks
Yes, of course. Re-balancing output levels is a step I always perform. Looking forward to your feedback.
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