**miniDSP DDRC-88A Official Thread**8-channel AI/AO Dirac Live in a box - Page 528 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15811 of 16629 Old 10-04-2018, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottieBoysName View Post
Thinking about this a little bit...I’m taking measurements (gain matching, impulse, etc) using a timing reference from the front left main speaker. Consistently. Never changed it.

BUT - The AVR is set to default/stock. Which means there aren’t any delays, but there are stock distances set. 12 feet for the mains and 10 feet for the surrounds. Can’t remember what the stock distance for the sub(s) are set to.

Should I redo all my gain setting/impulse alignment with all the distances set to zero?

I know I need to zero the distances before Dirac, but do those distances have any effect on my gain matching and impulse time alignment?

It feels like they would. But then again I’m only use ONE sub out on the AVR, that then splits after the 2X4. So?

Hmmmmm.
With one sub output it makes no difference.
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post #15812 of 16629 Old 10-04-2018, 03:00 PM
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**miniDSP DDRC-88A Official Thread**8-channel AI/AO Dirac Live in a box

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With one sub output it makes no difference.


Sweet!

Not on the timing reference either right?
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post #15813 of 16629 Old 10-04-2018, 08:42 PM
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**miniDSP DDRC-88A Official Thread**8-channel AI/AO Dirac Live in a box

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With one sub output it makes no difference.


See the attached pic. Yellow circle is the MLP. Should I run Dirac as a chair just on that seat? Or Dirac as a sofa on that whole section?

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post #15814 of 16629 Old 10-04-2018, 09:15 PM
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See the attached pic. Yellow circle is the MLP. Should I run Dirac as a chair just on that seat? Or Dirac as a sofa on that whole section?
I would run it both ways, save the results in two different pre-sets, and compare the results. The Sofa approach sacrifices quality at the MLP for better sound across the multiple seats.

Of more concern to me is the fact that you do not have a symmetrical seating arrangement. The best audio in the room is dead center, and there is no seat there.
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post #15815 of 16629 Old 10-04-2018, 09:23 PM
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**miniDSP DDRC-88A Official Thread**8-channel AI/AO Dirac Live in a box

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I would run it both ways, save the results in two different pre-sets, and compare the results. The Sofa approach sacrifices quality at the MLP for better sound across the multiple seats.



Of more concern to me is the fact that you do not have a symmetrical seating arrangement. The best audio in the room is dead center, and there is no seat there.


I’ll try it measured both ways.

Righto on the seating position. I can do it that way for sure, sit in the middle, and I still might. I have two left chairs and two rights. I can rearrange it into a center love set along with a chair on either side. That just means people have to get to their seats around the sides. Not a lot of room there.

Also if I end up hanging acoustic panels off of those walls, that takes up four inches off the wall.
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post #15816 of 16629 Old 10-04-2018, 11:05 PM
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The connection into the 2x4HD is a line-level connection, not a speaker connection. To use the 2x4HD for the center channel, you would need a powered center channel speaker. If all you want to do is add PEW to the subs, the 2x4HD is fine. If you want to completely eliminate Audyssey and switch to Dirac, then you would need the 88A. If you go with the 88A, you won’t need the 2x4HD with a 5.1 setup.
Thanks for explaining that. The X3100 also Has line level connections for the speakers,
can I run the line connection from X3100 for center speaker --> 2x4HD --> external amp --> non powered speaker?
(use REW to calibrate the center?)
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post #15817 of 16629 Old 10-05-2018, 04:52 AM
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Also if I end up hanging acoustic panels off of those walls, that takes up four inches off the wall.
Right next to the seating wouldn't be an optimal position for a wall panel. You want the panels to be positioned such that if it were a mirror you'd be able to see your speaker in it from the seated position. (gross generalization here, since there are lots of speakers, but immediately to your side is not generally where speaker reflections are coming from.)
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post #15818 of 16629 Old 10-05-2018, 05:01 AM
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If I buy one of these high-end products, does that mean in the future if I upgrade my receiver, I do not really need to spend the extra Bucks on getting a top of the line receiver, since the job of the receiver will only be to provide video and power while all of the calibration happens with the mini DSP product?
Be aware that the 88a would require additional amplifiers (unless your receiver includes loop-back, but they seldom do anymore). So, take that back to your question, and what it really means is that in the future you don't even necessarily need a receiver (with included amps), you could get away with a processor (no included amps). Sounds like a win-win, but, the reality is that it doesn't work out like that.

1) Manufacturers have pretty much reduced the availability of processors to only the top-of-the-line, so no way to actually "save" money by not needing amplification.
2) Even when you realize that you are going to be buying a "receiver" and not care about the built in room correction (since you already have DIRAC), and not care about the built in amplifiers (since you can't use them), you still end up not being able to save much, since the other features you probably want are only available in the receivers closer to the top of the line. *sigh*

All that being said, DIRAC in the 88a is still worth it. (IMO, of course, and there are plenty of others here who would agree).
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post #15819 of 16629 Old 10-05-2018, 05:34 AM
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Right next to the seating wouldn't be an optimal position for a wall panel. You want the panels to be positioned such that if it were a mirror you'd be able to see your speaker in it from the seated position. (gross generalization here, since there are lots of speakers, but immediately to your side is not generally where speaker reflections are coming from.)
Got it. Is that the mirror trick that everyone talks about?
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post #15820 of 16629 Old 10-05-2018, 05:54 AM
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Got it. Is that the mirror trick that everyone talks about?
Indeed. Furthermore, hindering people getting to their seats from the rear of the room because of wall panels is less of a concern once you realize that the vast majority of the (important) wall panels should be forward of the seats. We are much more sensitive to reflections coming at us from the front versus the rear.
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post #15821 of 16629 Old 10-05-2018, 06:29 AM
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Thanks for explaining that. The X3100 also Has line level connections for the speakers,
can I run the line connection from X3100 for center speaker --> 2x4HD --> external amp --> non powered speaker?
(use REW to calibrate the center?)
Yes, you could do that.
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post #15822 of 16629 Old 10-05-2018, 08:08 AM
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Thanks for explaining that. The X3100 also Has line level connections for the speakers,
can I run the line connection from X3100 for center speaker --> 2x4HD --> external amp --> non powered speaker?
(use REW to calibrate the center?)
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Yes, you could do that.
Thanks. I will try that. Have to find an amp from someone. Since I will have one extra input on the 2x4HD, that I will not be using for the subwoofer, I can give this a shot for trial basis.
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post #15823 of 16629 Old 10-05-2018, 07:13 PM
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I would run it both ways, save the results in two different pre-sets, and compare the results. The Sofa approach sacrifices quality at the MLP for better sound across the multiple seats.



Of more concern to me is the fact that you do not have a symmetrical seating arrangement. The best audio in the room is dead center, and there is no seat there.


Through a bit of creative thinking and boredom until my custom snake cables come in, I was able to hook up my 88A on a few channels and check some levels.

I got my FL, FR, C, and Combined Sub hooked up.

I followed the instructions and took a look at all the levels, and they more or less measure -12, with a plus/minus bounce here and there.

The sub is my question, since in the primer you indicate that it needs to be EXACTLY -12. My “click” gains again reared their ugly heads. Click 3 is juuuuuuuust bouncing around below -12 and click 4 is juuuuuuust bouncing around above -12.

Should I leave it at one of those, if so which one? OR do I set it to the higher one, and then use the individual channel level and reduce it until it’s exactly -12?
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post #15824 of 16629 Old 10-05-2018, 07:35 PM
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Through a bit of creative thinking and boredom until my custom snake cables come in, I was able to hook up my 88A on a few channels and check some levels.

I got my FL, FR, C, and Combined Sub hooked up.

I followed the instructions and took a look at all the levels, and they more or less measure -12, with a plus/minus bounce here and there.

The sub is my question, since in the primer you indicate that it needs to be EXACTLY -12. My “click” gains again reared their ugly heads. Click 3 is juuuuuuuust bouncing around below -12 and click 4 is juuuuuuust bouncing around above -12.

Should I leave it at one of those, if so which one? OR do I set it to the higher one, and then use the individual channel level and reduce it until it’s exactly -12?
IMO, use the higher reading, and do not touch the channel adjustments. The guidelines are to get it close to -12, but no need to expect it to be exactly -12 for all speakers. It is natural to have the meter fluctuate around the -12 level.
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post #15825 of 16629 Old 10-05-2018, 07:39 PM
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IMO, use the higher reading, and do not touch the channel adjustments. The guidelines are to get it close to -12, but no need to expect it to be exactly -12 for all speakers. It is natural to have the meter fluctuate around the -12 level.


Will do sir! I’ll report back after I get them all done when my snakes get here. Pretty excited! I can’t wait to see what my first measurement looks like.
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post #15826 of 16629 Old 10-07-2018, 06:11 AM
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IMO, use the higher reading, and do not touch the channel adjustments. The guidelines are to get it close to -12, but no need to expect it to be exactly -12 for all speakers. It is natural to have the meter fluctuate around the -12 level.


Just checking, and I may have missed it, but I know there are things I need to do in the AVR so that Dirac can act as it should.

1 - Set all the speaker distances to Zero. Check

I have questions on the other two.

2 - What size do I set the speakers to? Small? Large? Small for some, large for others? Or is this irrelevant for Dirac?

3 - There are crossover settings in the AVR. Currently I have everything crossed over on the mains/surrounds at 80hz. Sub is everything below 120hz. What should I leave that at in regards to Dirac? Or does it matter?

Any suggestions or other things you think I need to be aware of, fire away. I’m reading all of the Dirac stuff now, and I might have missed #2 and #3 .
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post #15827 of 16629 Old 10-07-2018, 06:44 AM
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Just checking, and I may have missed it, but I know there are things I need to do in the AVR so that Dirac can act as it should.

1 - Set all the speaker distances to Zero. Check

I have questions on the other two.

2 - What size do I set the speakers to? Small? Large? Small for some, large for others? Or is this irrelevant for Dirac?

3 - There are crossover settings in the AVR. Currently I have everything crossed over on the mains/surrounds at 80hz. Sub is everything below 120hz. What should I leave that at in regards to Dirac? Or does it matter?

Any suggestions or other things you think I need to be aware of, fire away. I’m reading all of the Dirac stuff now, and I might have missed #2 and #3 .
You missed an important piece of information. Did you purchase the bass management add-on with the 88A? If no, then all bass management needs to happen in the AVR by setting speakers to small and establishing an appropriate crossover, say 80Hz. Also remember that the speaker trims should be set to zero as well and, of course, disable Audyssey. If you purchased the bass management add-on (which is highly recommended), then I have a specific guide for setting up bass management in the 88A linked in my sig.
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post #15828 of 16629 Old 10-07-2018, 07:26 AM
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**miniDSP DDRC-88A Official Thread**8-channel AI/AO Dirac Live in a box

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You missed an important piece of information. Did you purchase the bass management add-on with the 88A? If no, then all bass management needs to happen in the AVR by setting speakers to small and establishing an appropriate crossover, say 80Hz. Also remember that the speaker trims should be set to zero as well and, of course, disable Audyssey. If you purchased the bass management add-on (which is highly recommended), then I have a specific guide for setting up bass management in the 88A linked in my sig.

Yes sir, speakers/trims etc. are all set to zero and speakers set to small. Audyssey is set to off.

I did indeed purchase the BM feature of the 88A. I have not set that up. I tossed that in with my order in case I ever needed it. So yes, it’s available to me.

I bought it since at the time I might have gone with JTR RT215s, for mains, which play down to 20hz. I was going to crossover LFE to them and the BM would have allowed me to do that. I ended up getting RT212s, which don’t play that low so 80hz is fine.

I noticed you said it’s highly recommended.

From my understanding it will allow me to get extremely specific per speaker, of what frequencies are sent to them. Is this correct?

If so, is that noticeable compared to the simplicity of the 80/120 setting I have now?

What does it really allow Dirac to do differently?

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post #15829 of 16629 Old 10-07-2018, 10:20 AM
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Yes sir, speakers/trims etc. are all set to zero and speakers set to small. Audyssey is set to off.

I did indeed purchase the BM feature of the 88A. I have not set that up. I tossed that in with my order in case I ever needed it. So yes, it’s available to me.

I bought it since at the time I might have gone with JTR RT215s, for mains, which play down to 20hz. I was going to crossover LFE to them and the BM would have allowed me to do that. I ended up getting RT212s, which don’t play that low so 80hz is fine.

I noticed you said it’s highly recommended.

From my understanding it will allow me to get extremely specific per speaker, of what frequencies are sent to them. Is this correct?

If so, is that noticeable compared to the simplicity of the 80/120 setting I have now?

What does it really allow Dirac to do differently?
You need to read the guide. If you use the bass management add-on, then all speakers would be set to large, and crossovers would be set in the 88A. The bass management add-on offers more flexibility in configuring bass management, allows gain management, and provides a very flexible output screen with individual channel PEQ, gain, and delay settings as well as output meters. If you purchased the BM add-on, you should use it.
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post #15830 of 16629 Old 10-07-2018, 10:48 AM
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You need to read the guide. If you use the bass management add-on, then all speakers would be set to large, and crossovers would be set in the 88A. The bass management add-on offers more flexibility in configuring bass management, allows gain management, and provides a very flexible output screen with individual channel PEQ, gain, and delay settings as well as output meters. If you purchased the BM add-on, you should use it.
Will do my man. I've been going through both of them (yours and MiniDSPs) for about the past hour.

My understanding so far is this, please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm a little confused on where the order of implementing the BM features resides.

1) I need to have a baseline Dirac calibration done before attempting to mess around with the BM feature. For that baseline Dirac calibration, speakers would be set to small, all trims/distances set to zero. This baseline calibration would use the crossover/filters of my AVR.

2) Save my calibration.

3) Reset the 88A to default settings.

4) Set all speakers to large in my AVR. Trims/distances remain at zero. Setting should still be LFE, and NOT LFE+main.

5) Implement crossover features/etc. in BM. Adjust settings, test, etc.

6) Load Dirac calibration on TOP of that?
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post #15831 of 16629 Old 10-07-2018, 10:57 AM
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Will do my man. I've been going through both of them (yours and MiniDSPs) for about the past hour.

My understanding so far is this, please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm a little confused on where the order of implementing the BM features resides.

1) I need to have a baseline Dirac calibration done before attempting to mess around with the BM feature. For that baseline Dirac calibration, speakers would be set to small, all trims/distances set to zero. This baseline calibration would use the crossover/filters of my AVR.

2) Save my calibration.

3) Reset the 88A to default settings.

4) Set all speakers to large in my AVR. Trims/distances remain at zero. Setting should still be LFE, and NOT LFE+main.

5) Implement crossover features/etc. in BM. Adjust settings, test, etc.

6) Load Dirac calibration on TOP of that?
There is a very basic concept that you are not understanding. During the Dirac calibration, your AVR is not involved. The Dirac calibration tones originate in the 88A and are sent to the power amp, completely bypassing the AVR. You could even turn the AVR off during the calibration. So the AVR settings for the speakers, large vs. small, and crossovers have no impact on the calibration. Regardless, if you are going to use the BM add-on, Speakers should be set to large, and trims and distances should be set to zero.

And the settings on the LFE Mgt tab, where all the bass management configuration in the 88A happens, also have no impact on the Dirac calibration. The Dirac block occurs after the bass management block in the signal path.

So, the order of things is, Dirac calibration first, and then configure bass management. This is all covered in the guide.

And Step 3 is wrong. No need to reset the 88A after the calibration. This just erases the calibration you just ran. Why would you want to do this?
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post #15832 of 16629 Old 10-07-2018, 11:05 AM
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There is a very basic concept that you are not understanding. During the Dirac calibration, your AVR is not involved. The Dirac calibration tones originate in the 88A and are sent to the power amp, completely bypassing the AVR. You could even turn the AVR off during the calibration. So the AVR settings for the speakers, large vs. small, and crossovers have no impact on the calibration. Regardless, if you are going to use the BM add-on, Speakers should be set to large, and trims and distances should be set to zero.

And the settings on the LFE Mgt tab, where all the bass management configuration in the 88A happens, also have no impact on the Dirac calibration. The Dirac block occurs after the bass management block in the signal path.

So, the order of things is, Dirac calibration first, and then configure bass management. This is all covered in the guide.

And Step 3 is wrong. No need to reset the 88A after the calibration. This just erases the calibration you just ran. Why would you want to do this?
Got it! I think I misread it, and it stated to reset the BM module and I thought it meant Dirac. My bad.

Understood, thanks for explaining all of this and being patient with me, it's absolutely appreciated. I don't think you get enough credit for all you do!
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post #15833 of 16629 Old 10-11-2018, 02:54 PM
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There is a very basic concept that you are not understanding. During the Dirac calibration, your AVR is not involved. The Dirac calibration tones originate in the 88A and are sent to the power amp, completely bypassing the AVR. You could even turn the AVR off during the calibration. So the AVR settings for the speakers, large vs. small, and crossovers have no impact on the calibration. Regardless, if you are going to use the BM add-on, Speakers should be set to large, and trims and distances should be set to zero.



And the settings on the LFE Mgt tab, where all the bass management configuration in the 88A happens, also have no impact on the Dirac calibration. The Dirac block occurs after the bass management block in the signal path.



So, the order of things is, Dirac calibration first, and then configure bass management. This is all covered in the guide.



And Step 3 is wrong. No need to reset the 88A after the calibration. This just erases the calibration you just ran. Why would you want to do this?


Got my snakes in! Got the output all hooked up from the 88A to my amp, and I have an issue but it’s a consistent one.

All my mains (L/R/C) are nearly identical to each other. My surrounds are identical to each other.

My mains are 4ohm with 101 dB sensitivity.

My surrounds are 8ohm with 95dB sensitivity.

My amp is 400x7 at 8ohm, so the mains are getting more juice and they’re more sensitive.

I mention this since it might be responsible for what I’m seeing.

I’m going through Dirac’s test tones to check levels, I get get my mains and subs to line up at -12 +/-2ish with the same output setting. No sweat.

When I run the test tone on my surrounds, it’s the same for all of them, but FAR below the level of everything else.

Prolly minus 18. It’s just baaaarely in the green at all.

What should I do? All the channel volumes are maxed out, so I can’t increase the surrounds.

I could increase the output volume, then lower the channel volume on the mains to match the surrounds? You told me not to do that though.

So I need to crack the unit open and adjust the gain?
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post #15834 of 16629 Old 10-11-2018, 03:07 PM
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So I need to crack the unit open and adjust the gain?
That would be the first thing I would try. The output voltages don’t need to match. Report results.

Refresh my memory, are the snakes balanced or unbalanced? And the power amp has no gain controls?
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post #15835 of 16629 Old 10-11-2018, 03:34 PM
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That would be the first thing I would try. The output voltages don’t need to match. Report results.



Refresh my memory, are the snakes balanced or unbalanced? And the power amp has no gain controls?


Snakes are balanced XLR.

I wanted to play around a bit waiting on your reply, so if I DID happen to use the sliders, this is what I ended up with on levels. See attached.

That seems like a loooooot of adjusting. You can see the mains all are pretty close.

Rear right measured the lowest, so I went off of that.

I’ll crack it open and see what’s what. Any tips?

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post #15836 of 16629 Old 10-11-2018, 04:12 PM
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GOLD JERRY!! GOLD!!!

I cracked it open and flipped 5, 6, 7, 8. Added 6db to each, and then started it back up and checked the levels. They're all REALLY close.

I'm moving forward!

When I get done, can you check out my project to see how crappy it is?
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post #15837 of 16629 Old 10-11-2018, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottieBoysName View Post
Snakes are balanced XLR.

I wanted to play around a bit waiting on your reply, so if I DID happen to use the sliders, this is what I ended up with on levels. See attached.

That seems like a loooooot of adjusting. You can see the mains all are pretty close.

Rear right measured the lowest, so I went off of that.

I’ll crack it open and see what’s what. Any tips?

Try the voltage settings first, leaving the channel sliders alone. Report results.

Edit: sorry, didn’t see your update. Good progress.
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post #15838 of 16629 Old 10-11-2018, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottieBoysName View Post
GOLD JERRY!! GOLD!!!

I cracked it open and flipped 5, 6, 7, 8. Added 6db to each, and then started it back up and checked the levels. They're all REALLY close.

I'm moving forward!

When I get done, can you check out my project to see how crappy it is?
When you are done, post your Dirac project for downloading.
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post #15839 of 16629 Old 10-11-2018, 04:18 PM
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When you are done, post your Dirac project for downloading.
Will do sir!
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post #15840 of 16629 Old 10-11-2018, 07:41 PM
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When you are done, post your Dirac project for downloading.
I just took all the measurements at the indicated locations, and saved the project. I haven't done anything to it.

What should I use to send the file to you? Or host it?

One more thing, when I do this it makes my speakers hiss like crazy? I'm basically moving the slider from the -57.5dB setting I had it at, and going to 0.00dB. Is that right? Why? Will they always hiss like that?

"c.IMPORTANT. Before you exit DLCT, maximize the output volume slider at the top of the screen,"

Last edited by ScottieBoysName; 10-11-2018 at 07:54 PM.
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