**miniDSP DDRC-88A Official Thread**8-channel AI/AO Dirac Live in a box - Page 552 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 3907Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #16531 of 16788 Old 05-24-2019, 10:12 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Soulburner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 4,887
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Liked: 1628
Quote:
Originally Posted by steakhouse_ View Post
Not for low frequencies.


Basically david is right. For different speakers (eg a sub and an arbitrary front speaker) it is very difficult to obtain a proper addition of both in terms of low frequencies. Having LFE and front signals correlated is problematic since one can have different systems and different phase behavior bn fronts and LFE due to ported designs for example. It is no problem with both systems being closed cabinets or if you use a 80Hz crossover (most phase shifts due to BR are taking place at lower frequencies than 80Hz). This is why it is not recommended to mix signals to the fronts and the LFE which are correlated.
I see. We are talking about LFE + Mains, or "double bass". That is generally not recommended. No need to have multiple drivers of various capability handling the same frequencies. Let those best suited to the job perform their function.

HT: Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings) | NAD T758 V3 | Buchardt S400 (2) | Emotiva E2 (2) | Rythmik Audio F12 (2)
Soulburner is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #16532 of 16788 Old 05-25-2019, 01:15 AM
Advanced Member
 
theblackangus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
Posts: 870
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 508 Post(s)
Liked: 280
Hello all!
I have a question around some of the capabilities for this device.
Can I use it to copy an input to a second speaker and then use Dirac on each speaker independently? (Right surround to second right surround?)

Can I use it to matrix two speakers into a 3rd and use Dirac on the 3rd speaker independently? (Ex. Front right and right surround into speaker 3?)

Thanks!
theblackangus is offline  
post #16533 of 16788 Old 05-25-2019, 03:40 AM
Senior Member
 
steakhouse_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 433
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 310 Post(s)
Liked: 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
I see. We are talking about LFE + Mains, or "double bass". That is generally not recommended. No need to have multiple drivers of various capability handling the same frequencies. Let those best suited to the job perform their function.
No, not just double bass. The LFE channel could contain the same bass like like the fronts. This might happen with music scores. In that case you would run into problems.
steakhouse_ is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #16534 of 16788 Old 05-25-2019, 08:58 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Soulburner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 4,887
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Liked: 1628
Quote:
Originally Posted by steakhouse_ View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
I see. We are talking about LFE + Mains, or "double bass". That is generally not recommended. No need to have multiple drivers of various capability handling the same frequencies. Let those best suited to the job perform their function.
No, not just double bass. The LFE channel could contain the same bass like like the fronts. This might happen with music scores. In that case you would run into problems.
What music uses the .1 LFE channel? You get subwoofer bass with stereo music through bass management, not from the content itself.

HT: Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings) | NAD T758 V3 | Buchardt S400 (2) | Emotiva E2 (2) | Rythmik Audio F12 (2)
Soulburner is offline  
post #16535 of 16788 Old 05-25-2019, 09:51 AM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 20,863
Mentioned: 391 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11303 Post(s)
Liked: 6706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
What music uses the .1 LFE channel? You get subwoofer bass with stereo music through bass management, not from the content itself.
Some multi-channel music may have content in the .1 channel, although 99% of the music I listen to is 2-channel. Nevertheless, if Double Bass is engaged, bass content below the crossover is routed to both the mains and the subs, which I am sure you know. Since many of us have optimized our subs for best bass response, introducing low frequencies coming from the mains as well tends to muddy the waters, figuratively and literally. Generally something to avoid, IMO.
AustinJerry is online now  
post #16536 of 16788 Old 05-25-2019, 10:06 AM
Senior Member
 
steakhouse_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 433
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 310 Post(s)
Liked: 171
I did not mean stereo. I meant music that is played during a movie. There are also some effects in the low frequency domain that are mixed to the LFE and the mains. Just switch of your sub when your mains are configured to large. You will see that there will be quite an amount of bass sometimes for example when there is an explosion.
steakhouse_ is online now  
post #16537 of 16788 Old 05-25-2019, 10:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Soulburner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 4,887
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Liked: 1628
Quote:
Originally Posted by steakhouse_ View Post
Just switch of your sub when your mains are configured to large.
But our mains are set to small . Therefore, those signals end up going to no speakers.

HT: Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings) | NAD T758 V3 | Buchardt S400 (2) | Emotiva E2 (2) | Rythmik Audio F12 (2)

Last edited by Soulburner; 05-25-2019 at 11:06 AM.
Soulburner is offline  
post #16538 of 16788 Old 05-25-2019, 01:04 PM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 20,863
Mentioned: 391 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11303 Post(s)
Liked: 6706
Quote:
Originally Posted by steakhouse_ View Post
I did not mean stereo. I meant music that is played during a movie. There are also some effects in the low frequency domain that are mixed to the LFE and the mains. Just switch of your sub when your mains are configured to large. You will see that there will be quite an amount of bass sometimes for example when there is an explosion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
But our mains are set to small . Therefore, those signals end up going to no speakers.
Of course. But as Soulburner mentions, most of us would have our mains set to small, especially if we have multiple subs. Anything below the crossover goes exclusively to the subs.
AustinJerry is online now  
post #16539 of 16788 Old 05-26-2019, 08:26 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 28,003
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7259 Post(s)
Liked: 6294
Quote:
Originally Posted by steakhouse_ View Post
I meant music that is played during a movie. There are also some effects in the low frequency domain that are mixed to the LFE and the mains.
You are starting from the premise that the movie mixing crew somehow missed phase/timing distortions when they heard LFE and mains combined while mixing the soundtrack, yet these same distortions are audible when LFE and mains are combined while playing back that same soundtrack at home. How often do you think this happens: rarely or routinely? Often enough to re-think the way we currently do bass management and delays?

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #16540 of 16788 Old 05-26-2019, 12:58 PM
Senior Member
 
steakhouse_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 433
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 310 Post(s)
Liked: 171
Man, how often do I have to write this. The phase distortion does not come from the soundtrack. It is due to the speakers. Just use a closed cabinet sub and a sealed speaker. Or just both closed with different port tunings.
steakhouse_ is online now  
post #16541 of 16788 Old 05-26-2019, 01:45 PM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 20,863
Mentioned: 391 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11303 Post(s)
Liked: 6706
You keep talking about this without providing any evidence that it is an issue. How about some fact and data, or links? If it were really an issue, why are we hearing it only from you?
AustinJerry is online now  
post #16542 of 16788 Old 05-26-2019, 02:10 PM
Advanced Member
 
StevenLansing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 744
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Liked: 19
DDRC-88-BM output levels

I want to make sure that the output levels on the DDRC-88-BM are being set properly. If I'm maximizing the SN/R for 0dB reference level using unbalanced inputs,I need to adjust my Pre-Pro trims for all 5 main channels to +4dB to reach 0dBFS on the DDRC-88A inputs. The sub trim needed to be adjusted to -6dB.

Doing the math results in -12.4dB for the LFE trim and -22.4dB trims for the main channels in the LFE Mgt tab.

When measuring the channels for 75dB SPL output level, should the resulting output levels in the DRRC-88-BM be a result of both the Dirac trims values and -4dB for the main channels? Or should the resulting output trim value be inline with the difference between the Dirac trim and the -4dB?

For instance,the Dirac trim for the FL channel is -3dB. When measuring the SPL for the FL channel, should the result for the output trim be inline with a value of -4dB and then the total level reduction being -7dB for the FL channel? Or should the output trim value be the difference between the -3dB (Dirac trim) and -4dB,which would result in a trim value of -1dB for the output trim of the FL channel.

I'm trying to figure out if my DDRC-88-BM output level trims are inline with what should be expected.


If this all sounds confusing then it's because I'm confused lol!

Help put an end to the reach-around mentality and bring the "Science" back to AVS.

Last edited by StevenLansing; 05-26-2019 at 02:13 PM.
StevenLansing is offline  
post #16543 of 16788 Old 05-26-2019, 11:54 PM
Senior Member
 
steakhouse_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 433
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 310 Post(s)
Liked: 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You keep talking about this without providing any evidence that it is an issue. How about some fact and data, or links? If it were really an issue, why are we hearing it only from you?
Data for what? That different port tunings or mixing of ported and closed cabinet bass Sources have different phase? Again, all I did say is that david had some point there because correlated signals to the fronts and LFE may be a problem when the fronts are configured as large.
steakhouse_ is online now  
post #16544 of 16788 Old 05-27-2019, 05:46 AM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 20,863
Mentioned: 391 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11303 Post(s)
Liked: 6706
Quote:
Originally Posted by steakhouse_ View Post
Data for what? That different port tunings or mixing of ported and closed cabinet bass Sources have different phase? Again, all I did say is that david had some point there because correlated signals to the fronts and LFE may be a problem when the fronts are configured as large.
And we keep saying that having the fronts configured to large would be a non-standard setting if there are subs in the setup as well.
AustinJerry is online now  
post #16545 of 16788 Old 05-27-2019, 09:34 AM
Senior Member
 
steakhouse_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 433
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 310 Post(s)
Liked: 171
I know, I just wanted to say david had some valid point.
steakhouse_ is online now  
post #16546 of 16788 Old 05-27-2019, 05:40 PM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 20,863
Mentioned: 391 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11303 Post(s)
Liked: 6706
Quote:
Originally Posted by steakhouse_ View Post
I know, I just wanted to say david had some valid point.
Fair enough.
AustinJerry is online now  
post #16547 of 16788 Old 05-30-2019, 02:27 AM
Senior Member
 
flax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 290
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 191 Post(s)
Liked: 318
Here a post by miniDSP's DevTeam about Dirac Live 2.x that DDRC-88 users will like:
https://www.minidsp.com/forum/dirac-...start=90#42359


Flavio
wl1 likes this.

Warning: My posts might be biased even if in good faith, I work for Dirac Research :-)
flax is offline  
post #16548 of 16788 Old 05-30-2019, 04:20 AM
Advanced Member
 
KevinG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: S. Jersey
Posts: 957
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by flax View Post
Here a post by miniDSP's DevTeam about Dirac Live 2.x that DDRC-88 users will like:
https://www.minidsp.com/forum/dirac-...start=90#42359


Flavio

Wow, I didn't really expect this to happen. Thanks Flavio, and thanks MiniDSP!
KevinG is offline  
post #16549 of 16788 Old 06-02-2019, 09:39 PM
Advanced Member
 
StevenLansing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 744
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Very exiting news about Dirac 2.0 support for the DDRC-88A. I will be very interested in knowing if the DDRC-88A will support all 3 Tiers of the new Dirac Bass Management modules or just the Tier 3 option?

Seems like I made a good choice of selecting the 5.1 configuration instead of the Custom configuration for my set-up I'm already ahead of the curve on using that configuration.

BTW,I figured out the LCR panning level and tonal issue I was noticing. I needed to reconfigure output levels differently than what is typically recommended. I also needed to reduce the levels of my mains using their sensitivity controls versus using the DDRC-88-BM output tab level trims. Trying to maximize SN/R for my typical listening level (-14 to -10dB below reference) instead of 0dB reference level and using the DDRC-88-BM output tab level trims for the proper level reduction required,resulted in noticeably worse sound quality.

Dynamic range especially suffered as a result. Using my speakers input sensitivity controls to do the bulk of the level reduction adjustment, versus the output tab level trims, solved that issue. This also resulted in the output level trims being centered closer to the ideal 0dB level and results in less digital attenuation,which seems to be an issue if reducing levels much below 0dB with the DDRC-88A.

Help put an end to the reach-around mentality and bring the "Science" back to AVS.
StevenLansing is offline  
post #16550 of 16788 Old 06-02-2019, 09:45 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Soulburner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 4,887
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Liked: 1628
The NAD AVRs featuring Dirac Live, which are newer than the DDRC-88A, will not support the add-on modules as new hardware is needed. That doesn't bode well for you guys, but let's hope.

HT: Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings) | NAD T758 V3 | Buchardt S400 (2) | Emotiva E2 (2) | Rythmik Audio F12 (2)
Soulburner is offline  
post #16551 of 16788 Old 06-03-2019, 02:56 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 109
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 91 Post(s)
Liked: 1
i finally got my hands one the DDRC 88A to calibrate my LCR+2subs as i have only 3 channel power amp..


i using it together with my denon x7200wa.


Before running dirac, what settings should i check/do on my AVR?

1. set LCR to full range?
2. set LFE to what value?
3. set crossover to what value?
4. set distance to actual distance measured for LCR and 2 subs?
5. set level to 0 db?

should i run audyssey to get the distance and level first and after that disable audyssey before i run Dirac?
beyond3r is offline  
post #16552 of 16788 Old 06-03-2019, 04:34 AM
Advanced Member
 
KevinG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: S. Jersey
Posts: 957
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond3r View Post
Before running dirac, what settings should i check/do on my AVR?

1. set LCR to full range?
2. set LFE to what value?
3. set crossover to what value?
4. set distance to actual distance measured for LCR and 2 subs?
5. set level to 0 db?

should i run audyssey to get the distance and level first and after that disable audyssey before i run Dirac?
If you are asking when you need to do before running a calibration, the answer is "None of the above." Calibration happens between the 88a, your amps, and your speakers...meaning that everything before the 88a can even be powered off.

After your calibration is done, the answers largely depend on your particular setup, and what you are trying to achieve, but, in general, the answers look like:
1) Yes, assuming you have at least one sub.
2) Depends on your available choices, and your speakers/subs, but as I recall 120 is typical?
3) Depends on your available choices, and your speakers/subs, and is ultimately determined by looking at the measurements, and knowing your speaker's capabilities (aim for 80 or below to avoid localizing the sub, if possible)
4) Zeroed out, since Dirac takes care of this.
5) Dirac will take care of channel level calibration, so zeroed out is appropriate.

Unless you are playing with having some speakers uncorrected via Dirac, you don't care at all about measured distances, so no need to run Audyssey. But do make sure that Audyssey is off once you are running your Dirac calibration filters.

-Enjoy!
KevinG is offline  
post #16553 of 16788 Old 06-03-2019, 04:37 AM
Advanced Member
 
KevinG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: S. Jersey
Posts: 957
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond3r View Post
i finally got my hands one the DDRC 88A to calibrate my LCR+2subs as i have only 3 channel power amp..
Wait, what are you trying to do with only a 3 channel amp?
KevinG is offline  
post #16554 of 16788 Old 06-03-2019, 05:26 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 109
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 91 Post(s)
Liked: 1
how can I turn off the avr when I need to connect my PC to avr using hdmi and get sound from the avr?

I wan to integrate LCR with my subs.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
beyond3r is offline  
post #16555 of 16788 Old 06-03-2019, 05:48 AM
Advanced Member
 
KevinG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: S. Jersey
Posts: 957
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond3r View Post
how can I turn off the avr when I need to connect my PC to avr using hdmi and get sound from the avr?

I wan to integrate LCR with my subs.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
The avr is not part of the calibration process. The DDRC-88A produces all of the calibration tones by itself.

I presume that you are using the 3 channel amp with your LCR, and your sub (powered?) will also be run through the 88a?
KevinG is offline  
post #16556 of 16788 Old 06-03-2019, 06:09 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 109
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 91 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
The avr is not part of the calibration process. The DDRC-88A produces all of the calibration tones by itself.



I presume that you are using the 3 channel amp with your LCR, and your sub (powered?) will also be run through the 88a?
correct. lcr with power sub.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
beyond3r is offline  
post #16557 of 16788 Old 06-03-2019, 06:23 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 109
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 91 Post(s)
Liked: 1
I do not understand how the 88a able to produce sound when the output (hdmi) is connected to the avr where the test tone is produce by the PC.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
beyond3r is offline  
post #16558 of 16788 Old 06-03-2019, 06:29 AM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 20,863
Mentioned: 391 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11303 Post(s)
Liked: 6706
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond3r View Post
how can I turn off the avr when I need to connect my PC to avr using hdmi and get sound from the avr?

I wan to integrate LCR with my subs.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
The PC used for the Dirac calibration is connected to the 88A using a USB cable. What would you be using a HDMI connection for? Perhaps you are thinking of REW measurements?
AustinJerry is online now  
post #16559 of 16788 Old 06-03-2019, 06:30 AM
Advanced Member
 
KevinG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: S. Jersey
Posts: 957
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond3r View Post
I do not understand how the 88a able to produce sound when the output (hdmi) is connected to the avr where the test tone is produce by the PC.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
Why do you insist that the calibration test tone is produced by the PC when I've told you twice that that isn't the case?
KevinG is offline  
post #16560 of 16788 Old 06-03-2019, 06:31 AM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 20,863
Mentioned: 391 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11303 Post(s)
Liked: 6706
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
If you are asking when you need to do before running a calibration, the answer is "None of the above." Calibration happens between the 88a, your amps, and your speakers...meaning that everything before the 88a can even be powered off.

After your calibration is done, the answers largely depend on your particular setup, and what you are trying to achieve, but, in general, the answers look like:
1) Yes, assuming you have at least one sub.
2) Depends on your available choices, and your speakers/subs, but as I recall 120 is typical?
3) Depends on your available choices, and your speakers/subs, and is ultimately determined by looking at the measurements, and knowing your speaker's capabilities (aim for 80 or below to avoid localizing the sub, if possible)
4) Zeroed out, since Dirac takes care of this.
5) Dirac will take care of channel level calibration, so zeroed out is appropriate.

Unless you are playing with having some speakers uncorrected via Dirac, you don't care at all about measured distances, so no need to run Audyssey. But do make sure that Audyssey is off once you are running your Dirac calibration filters.

-Enjoy!
Kevin, I agree with your recommendations, except for number 1. Unless the OP is using the bass management module in the 88A (and he has provided no indication he is doing so), the bass management will be done in the AVR, requiring the LCR speakers to be set to small.
AustinJerry is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
DDRC-88A , dirac live , minidsp , req

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off