**miniDSP DDRC-88A Official Thread**8-channel AI/AO Dirac Live in a box - Page 555 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #16621 of 16655 Old 07-10-2019, 07:26 AM
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I'm trying to get another year out of my Marantz 7702- the display is now going in and out, inexplicably - hopefully by next year sometime there will either be an ~ $3,500 11+ channel 2.1 HDMI PRE PRO option with Dirac Live 2.0 or minidsp will have an 11-16 channel option in the ~ $1,500 neighborhood. With ATMOS and the 88 around for 5+ years, I would think one would be in the works by now. Here's to hopin', lol.

EDIT: Perhaps the Monolith may get the job done if it's able to be upgraded to 2.1 - although I believe it lacks an OSD which is

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post #16622 of 16655 Old 07-10-2019, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post
I'm trying to get another year out of my Marantz 7702- the display is now going in and out, inexplicably - hopefully by next year sometime there will either be an ~ $3,500 11+ channel 2.1 HDMI PRE PRO option with Dirac Live 2.0 or minidsp will have an 11-16 channel option in the ~ $1,500 neighborhood. With ATMOS and the 88 around for 5+ years, I would think one would be in the works by now. Here's to hopin', lol.

EDIT: Perhaps the Monolith may get the job done if it's able to be upgraded to 2.1 - although I believe it lacks an OSD which is

James
Have you evaluated the offerings from NAD?
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post #16623 of 16655 Old 07-10-2019, 12:00 PM
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Have you evaluated the offerings from NAD?
Yes, thanks- their PREPRO is much too expensive and I have heard the 777 is a bit buggy (no offense to any owners, just what I've read) and I would really rather not have an amp section and would like all XLR connections- the latter is not a deal breaker, but I also consider eventually having to upgrade it to 2.1 and then it's not such a hot deal. Prolly will just wait an other year, honestly.

Thanks Jerry
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post #16624 of 16655 Old 07-10-2019, 01:32 PM
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Yes, thanks- their PREPRO is much too expensive and I have heard the 777 is a bit buggy (no offense to any owners, just what I've read) and I would really rather not have an amp section and would like all XLR connections- the latter is not a deal breaker, but I also consider eventually having to upgrade it to 2.1 and then it's not such a hot deal. Prolly will just wait an other year, honestly.

Thanks Jerry
James
Of course, we are all anxiously waiting to see what products from MiniDSP will be forthcoming with Dirac Live 2.0 support. I have no incentive right now to upgrade my Marantz 8802a, and continue to enjoy Dirac 1.0 on the 88a.
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post #16625 of 16655 Old 07-14-2019, 08:01 AM
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Just installed Dirac Live Calibration Tool v1.2.41.8863 on my Imac for the MiniDSP88A (BM), all went well but when I want to do a output level calibration the Dirac live tool is not recording any sound from my Umik-1, on system / preferences / sound / input it's recording just fine.


Anyone an idea??

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post #16626 of 16655 Old 07-14-2019, 09:16 AM
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FYI, either I missed the announcement or nothing was communicated about DLCT upgrade. MiniDSP in June, quietly updated the DLCT to fix the "subwoofer checkbox" bug.


Rev 2.1 / Dirac Live 1.2.41 / June 2019
- Dirac live update only / No changes for plugin&firmware.
- Bug fix for the Dirac live subwoofer checkbox when using the custom mode
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post #16627 of 16655 Old 07-14-2019, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holco View Post
Just installed Dirac Live Calibration Tool v1.2.41.8863 on my Imac for the MiniDSP88A (BM), all went well but when I want to do a output level calibration the Dirac live tool is not recording any sound from my Umik-1, on system / preferences / sound / input it's recording just fine.

Anyone an idea??
Sorry, Windows user here.
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post #16628 of 16655 Old 07-14-2019, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post
or minidsp will have an 11-16 channel option in the ~ $1,500 neighborhood.

If minidsp came out with a 16 channel unit,it would most likely be based on the improved performance spec's of the SHD series.That would take it way north of $2000.


The 2 channel full I/O SHD unit is priced at $1299.

Help put an end to the reach-around mentality and bring the "Science" back to AVS.
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post #16629 of 16655 Old 07-15-2019, 01:07 AM
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Hope that someone else has a solution.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by holco View Post
Just installed Dirac Live Calibration Tool v1.2.41.8863 on my Imac for the MiniDSP88A (BM), all went well but when I want to do a output level calibration the Dirac live tool is not recording any sound from my Umik-1, on system / preferences / sound / input it's recording just fine.

Anyone an idea??
Sorry, Windows user here.

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post #16630 of 16655 Old 07-17-2019, 10:54 PM
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I just changed from a +8 bass boost target curve to +14 and I'm loving it. Is anyone else using such excessive bass boost, or am I crazy?
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post #16631 of 16655 Old 07-17-2019, 11:03 PM
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I just changed from a +8 bass boost target curve to +14 and I'm loving it. Is anyone else using such excessive bass boost, or am I crazy?
I am, though half of it I achieved by lowering the rest of the curve. It might mean we listen at lower volumes and lack dynamic EQ like Audyssey had. Or, it might mean I need more powerful subs...you, I don't know what your problem is
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post #16632 of 16655 Old 07-18-2019, 02:10 AM
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For a wooden house completely normal 😉

Quote:
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I just changed from a +8 bass boost target curve to +14 and I'm loving it. Is anyone else using such excessive bass boost, or am I crazy?
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post #16633 of 16655 Old 07-18-2019, 07:44 AM
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I just changed from a +8 bass boost target curve to +14 and I'm loving it. Is anyone else using such excessive bass boost, or am I crazy?
The amount of bass boost depends on two factors, IMO. First is preference. Nothing wrong with boosting bass if that's what you like. The Harman studies revealed that listeners, on average, found a bass boost of 6-7dB was preferred, which is exactly the boost I apply in my setup.

The second factor is the bass quality. If you are reproducing low frequencies with a reasonably smooth response curve, and with bass resonances well controlled, then bass boost is perfectly fine. If, however, your response curve is not reasonably flat, and you have excessive ringing, boost may not sound pleasurable. This may be more apparent when listening to music than when listening to LFE effects in movie content. IOW, let your ears be the judge.

Edit: Of course, this all assumes that your subs can handle the increased boost without distorting or running out of gas.
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post #16634 of 16655 Old 07-18-2019, 10:31 AM
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I am, though half of it I achieved by lowering the rest of the curve. It might mean we listen at lower volumes and lack dynamic EQ like Audyssey had. Or, it might mean I need more powerful subs...you, I don't know what your problem is
Yeah, I achieved mine using a range of +2 to -12 in order avoid hitting the +10dB boost limit on the lower end of some of my channels. I do think my listening preferences are a little softer than average (probably 70dB to 75dB for music).
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The amount of bass boost depends on two factors, IMO. First is preference. Nothing wrong with boosting bass if that's what you like. The Harman studies revealed that listeners, on average, found a bass boost of 6-7dB was preferred, which is exactly the boost I apply in my setup.

The second factor is the bass quality. If you are reproducing low frequencies with a reasonably smooth response curve, and with bass resonances well controlled, then bass boost is perfectly fine. If, however, your response curve is not reasonably flat, and you have excessive ringing, boost may not sound pleasurable. This may be more apparent when listening to music than when listening to LFE effects in movie content. IOW, let your ears be the judge.

Edit: Of course, this all assumes that your subs can handle the increased boost without distorting or running out of gas.
Thanks, this pretty much lines up with my experience. I had tried a +10dB boost in the past but it was too much, the bass ended up sounding bloated. I've since upgraded subwoofers to Rythmiks which are extremely clean. I've also since added maple platforms under my front speakers and subwoofers to decouple them from my carpet over concrete floor, which was definitely killing a lot of my bass before. Now after those changes and with a +14 bass boost, music sounds great and the tone of all types of guitars (acoustic, electric, bass, etc) is extremely satisfying and live-sounding. I was worried that adding so much bass to make music sound right would make moves have way too much bass, but I was surprised to hear that the movies I've tried so far actually sounded better and more realistic as well.


My REW sweeps are attached, they look decent and flat enough to me. The resulting sweeps don't actually even reach +14 on the bottom end, but I think I already have more than enough bass now.
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post #16635 of 16655 Old 07-21-2019, 07:39 AM
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The working solution for me

Hello Mario

Is it possible that you’re running Mojave? If so, please make sure to run the DLCT build that is under the userdownloads section.
That’s the one that is compatible with Mojave.

Hoping this info helps and feel free to contact us if you have further questions.

Best Regards

DevTeam

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Hope that someone else has a solution.

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hello everyone,
I saw that with the umik-1 you point it to the ceiling when doing multichannel measurements, but what if you have on ceiling speakers? Wouldn't those be facing the microphone, and all other speakers be 90 degrees to the microphone?

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hello everyone,
I saw that with the umik-1 you point it to the ceiling when doing multichannel measurements, but what if you have on ceiling speakers? Wouldn't those be facing the microphone, and all other speakers be 90 degrees to the microphone?
If you use REW to compare measurements taken with the mic oriented at 90 degrees vs. zero degrees, the difference is actually quite small. Since there is no way I know of to change the mic’s orientation in the middle of the measurement sweeps during a calibration, it’s just something you must live with.
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post #16638 of 16655 Old 08-14-2019, 10:58 AM
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If you use REW to compare measurements taken with the mic oriented at 90 degrees vs. zero degrees, the difference is actually quite small. Since there is no way I know of to change the mic’s orientation in the middle of the measurement sweeps during a calibration, it’s just something you must live with.
Awesome, thanks AustinJerry!
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post #16639 of 16655 Old 08-15-2019, 01:49 AM
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https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/...om_correction/


hi all,


i came across the above site regarding Dirac live and it stated some contradiction to the usual recommendation.


1. Avoid the 90 degree mic position: Don't point the mic at the ceiling. MiniDSP recommends it for multichannel systems (link) but even then, I feel like it sacrifices some detail. The only success I had with 90deg was when I limited Dirac from 20Hz-1000Hz like this. I still preferred calibrating with the mic pointed between the mains and 20Hz-20kHz though. If you have separate Dirac channels for subs, it might make sense to use the 90 deg on those channels.Aim between speakers: /u/sasquatchimo experimented with aiming the mic straight forward versus aimed at the center between the speakers and found better stereo image tightening came from aiming at the center, whereas aiming straight forward gave slightly more diffuse results. For setups with extreme toe-in it, the opposite may be true due to the cumulative off-axis response between the nearest speaker and the microphone.


2. Don't over-correct treble: Applying too much correction above 5k can easily do harm. The best results often come from closely following the measured response with the target response or even not allowing Dirac to correct above a certain frequency.
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hi all,

i came across the above site regarding Dirac live and it stated some contradiction to the usual recommendation.
Of course, you will always be able to find opinions on how to implement Dirac if you search long enough. But it is not clear from the link what credentials the poster has. Both Dirac and MiniDSP recommend pointing the mic towards the ceiling, and I respect their opinions more. When I saw the statement, “If you have separate Dirac channels for subs”, I knew something was wrong. You never want more than one channel for low frequencies.

And the second piece of advice is nothing new. The conventional wisdom for creating custom targets above 5KHz is to have the target closely match the measured in-room frequency response of the speakers, which usually is a gentle roll-off. Or some prefer not to equalize above 5KHz, which is also a reasonable approach. I have two presets, one with calibration up to 20KHz, and one that stops at 5KHz. With my hearing, switching between the two rarely produces audible differences.
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post #16641 of 16655 Old 08-15-2019, 06:12 AM
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Of course, you will always be able to find opinions on how to implement Dirac if you search long enough. But it is not clear from the link what credentials the poster has. Both Dirac and MiniDSP recommend pointing the mic towards the ceiling, and I respect their opinions more. When I saw the statement, “If you have separate Dirac channels for subs”, I knew something was wrong. You never want more than one channel for low frequencies.



And the second piece of advice is nothing new. The conventional wisdom for creating custom targets above 5KHz is to have the target closely match the measured in-room frequency response of the speakers, which usually is a gentle roll-off. Or some prefer not to equalize above 5KHz, which is also a reasonable approach. I have two presets, one with calibration up to 20KHz, and one that stops at 5KHz. With my hearing, switching between the two rarely produces audible differences.
thanks for sharing your opinion.
this will make things easier as one can stop at 5khz.

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post #16642 of 16655 Old 08-15-2019, 06:52 AM
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1. Avoid the 90 degree mic position: Don't point the mic at the ceiling. MiniDSP recommends it for multichannel systems (link) but even then, I feel like it sacrifices some detail.
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But it is not clear from the link what credentials the poster has. Both Dirac and MiniDSP recommend pointing the mic towards the ceiling, and I respect their opinions more.
I can't say I agree with this at all. Credentials are irrelevant and if I ignored all advice from those without "credentials" my system wouldn't sound nearly as good as it does now. It's far more important to experiment and do listening tests to verify what works. A lot of my biggest audio upgrades were things that I was skeptical of in the first place, until I tested them out for myself in my system. I don't expect this particular tweak of pointing the mic forward instead of up to make a massive difference but in this audiophile hobby we tend to try and squeeze every last bit of performance we can get, so I see no reason beyond3r should not test this and report back with the results. The worst that happens is that some time is wasted and no difference is heard, but we still all end up more knowledgeable for it. But if beyond3r does report a difference then it should be considered and help convince others to test it as well, rather than be ignored because beyond3r has no "credentials" either.

I'm not able to test this with a calibration myself anytime soon, but I will definitely try it in my next calibration and report back as well.

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I can't say I agree with this at all. Credentials are irrelevant and if I ignored all advice from those without "credentials" my system wouldn't sound nearly as good as it does now. It's far more important to experiment and do listening tests to verify what works. A lot of my biggest audio upgrades were things that I was skeptical of in the first place, until I tested them out for myself in my system. I don't expect this particular tweak of pointing the mic forward instead of up to make a massive difference but in this audiophile hobby we tend to try and squeeze every last bit of performance we can get, so I see no reason beyond3r should not test this and report back with the results. The worst that happens is that some time is wasted and no difference is heard, but we still all end up more knowledgeable for it. But if beyond3r does report a difference then it should be considered and help convince others to test it as well, rather than be ignored because beyond3r has no "credentials" either.

I'm not able to test this with a calibration myself anytime soon, but I will definitely try it in my next calibration and report back as well.
You may be overreacting to my post. Dirac and MiniDSP both advise orienting the mic towards the ceiling. The conventional wisdom in the Audyssey threads is to point the mic at the ceiling. For general purpose REW measurements, the conventional wisdom is to point the mic at the ceiling. I thing these sources carry more weight than a web site (Reddit) that is not known as a focal point for audio advice.

I have always advocated that users experiment with different recommendations to come up with their own conclusions, and encourage you to do so as well. IMO, if the mic is oriented horizontally pointed towards the front speakers, the result will be that the high frequencies will be measured stronger than when the mic is pointed towards the ceiling. So, if you experiment, pay close attention to the high frequencies in the "before" measurements, and listen for high frequency differences when listening to the audio after the calibration has completed. Let your ears determine whether you hear an improvement or not.
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post #16644 of 16655 Old 08-15-2019, 02:03 PM
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I did experiment with pointing the mic between the front speakers and not up at the ceiling -- and for me the high frequency sounds better.
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post #16645 of 16655 Old 08-16-2019, 11:05 AM
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is there a substantial advantage in doing bass management on the minidsp, or is it ok to set all channels to 'bypassed' and let the AVR do bass management?

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is there a substantial advantage in doing bass management on the minidsp, or is it ok to set all channels to 'bypassed' and let the AVR do bass management?
There are two advantages:

1. Bass management in the 88A has a number of different settings, including different crossover type and slopes. Your AVR has none of these settings. If you try the different settings and use REW to measure the results, you will see there is quite a difference among the crossover settings.

2. After finding the optimal bass management configuration for the 88A, take REW measurements of the bass response using the AVR bass management and then using the 88A bass management. There will be an improvement when using the 88A because of its configurability. How significant the improvement is, and whether it is audible or not, depends on your setup and how well you tuned the settings.
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post #16647 of 16655 Old 08-16-2019, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond3r View Post

i came across the above site regarding Dirac live and it stated some contradiction to the usual recommendation.


1. Avoid the 90 degree mic position: Don't point the mic at the ceiling. .
Quote:
Originally Posted by nsaldanh View Post
I did experiment with pointing the mic between the front speakers and not up at the ceiling -- and for me the high frequency sounds better.
I ran two quick one-position Dirac measurement sweeps for a two-speaker configuration, one using the (conventional) vertical mic orientation, and one using a horizontal orientation, aiming at the center point between the two speakers. I selected the 90-degree calibration file for the first measurements, and the 0-degree calibration file for the second. For both measurements, I was careful to place the tip of the mic at ear height in the MLP.

I have attached the raw measurements. The first is the vertical orientation, the second is the horizontal orientation. The differences are subtle. The most noticeable difference is around 15KHz, where the horizontal orientation actually produces a deeper dip, which seems counter-intuitive to me.

I did not have the time, not the interest, to complete a full 9-position calibration using the horizontal mic orientation and conduct a listening test against my current calibration. Looking at the one-position measurement results, my prediction would be that any difference would likely be inaudible.
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post #16648 of 16655 Old Yesterday, 11:14 AM
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My own measurements showed very little difference in frequency response when measured with the mic pointing at the ceiling or when pointed between the front main speakers. However the high notes (about 8 - 10K and above) sounded much better when the mic was pointed between the main speakers. I also have two teenagers who can hear up to 17 Khz and they both say that the settings with the mic pointed between the main speakers sounds much better with high notes. I can't hear anything beyond 13 Khz, but at least whatever high frequency hearing I have left, sounds better with that setting.

I certainly can't back up what I hear with charts and measurements. I am also an electronics engineer so my conclusions based on my measurements conflict with what my ears tell me.

I for one have made my peace with this state of affairs, as I'd prefer to listen to music that sounds good to me rather than strive for what the music performer/recording engineer intended. I grew up in the eighties and loved the Nakamichi tape decks, Linn turntables, Sansui and Denon integrated amplifiers of that era. I've finally got my Marantz pre-pro and Marantz power amp to sound like those much older analog devices using Dirac and the Minidsp unit together with a custom curve. Maybe I should have just bought an integrated amplifier to listen to music!

Additionally I listen mainly to music at low levels, so I've got to boost bass and treble in any case in order to hear them at low levels. My output curve is anything but flat. Bass and treble are boosted, while mid range is cut a bit. I have never listened to music or movies at reference level.

Last edited by nsaldanh; Yesterday at 11:19 AM.
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post #16649 of 16655 Old Yesterday, 11:16 AM
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I also greatly respect Jerry and his contributions! I have learnt a lot from you and Markus on this forum as well as on the Denon and Marantz threads.
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post #16650 of 16655 Old Yesterday, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsaldanh View Post
I certainly can't back up what I hear with charts and measurements. I am also an electronics engineer so my conclusions based on my measurements conflict with what my ears tell me.
No one should ever fault you for choosing what sounds best. There are subjective aspects that may never be explained by science and measurements.
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