A Debate Regarding Pro Amps vs. "Consumer" HT Power Amps... - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 15Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 94 Old 12-16-2014, 12:06 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 27,902
Mentioned: 279 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13516 Post(s)
Liked: 11139
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Got it, agreed. I would also assume distortion is heading through the roof as the power compression region is entered. Your speaker may say it handles 1000 W peak but if that is 10 dB into compression it's probably pretty ugly coming out... For movies if it is an explosion it probably doesn't matter. If it's on a drum or musical (organ, bass guitar) tone and you just added a whole bunch of THD/IMD, it might.
Yep, wanted my speakers to handle pretty much what ever I threw at them, so used Acoustic Elegance TD18H's and two TD12M's in them.
Mike Garrett is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 94 Old 12-16-2014, 12:11 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 12,520
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3376 Post(s)
Liked: 3553
Years ago I thought my speakers (Magnepan MG-IIIa's) would handle anything I threw at them, and they would, for me. Then my toddler threw a ball at them...
htpcforever and Mike Garrett like this.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is offline  
post #63 of 94 Old 12-16-2014, 01:10 PM
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 16,231
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4588 Post(s)
Liked: 4802
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaystone501 View Post
... and the Polks prefer bi-wiring imho.
How in heck do Polk speakers "prefer" bi-wiring? They told you? What benefit does bi-wiring even offer? LOL!
jproy13 likes this.
lovinthehd is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #64 of 94 Old 12-16-2014, 01:35 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
airgas1998's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 42 2 30 degs N 92 54 52 degs W
Posts: 2,486
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
How in heck do Polk speakers "prefer" bi-wiring? They told you? What benefit does bi-wiring even offer? LOL!
of course they did, the polk cult following is some of the most laughable bul-lag-na I have seen. make sure you get those bridge holders for your speaker cable.

Habit Forming....Wallet Burning Hobby....55" Oled Lg C7 55" Samsung B8500 Fald Channel Master Dvr+ Onkyo RZ900 avr Crown xls 2002 2ch amp Samsung K8500 UBR player Svs Ultra Towers/Center, Svs Satellite Surrounds Svs Pb-13 Ultra Sub Bluesound Node 2I 2nd zone room: polk lsim 703's
airgas1998 is offline  
post #65 of 94 Old 12-16-2014, 03:27 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JHAz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,587
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 280
The thing about speaker power compression is that the amplifier cannot see or feel or smell or taste it. So if my speakers hit 95 dB at 10 watts but have 3 dB of compression at 105 dB, they need 200 watts to hit 105 dB. I can, if I have the power, get the 105 dB peaks up to 105 dB,by increasing my levels 3 dB somewhere in the chain. Then my supposed-to-be 95 dB will be at 98 dB because the amp is linear until it's own limits yield compression. So you are still compressed at higher spls but have thrown, what, 90 percent of the total soundtrack out of whack because it is too loud. More power can overcome speaker compression, up to a point, at the high spl end but the amp just is not smart enough to put out 10 watts for the 95 dB passages and 200 watts for the 105 dB peaks. It will do an accurate 10 watts for the 95 dB Section and 100 watts for the 105 dB passages. Or it will give you 20 watts for what should be the 95 dB passages and 200 watts for the 105 dB peaks. Absent an expander, properly calibrated,you are stuck with the speakers' compression from one direction or the other.
JHAz is offline  
post #66 of 94 Old 12-16-2014, 05:02 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 27,902
Mentioned: 279 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13516 Post(s)
Liked: 11139
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post
The thing about speaker power compression is that the amplifier cannot see or feel or smell or taste it. So if my speakers hit 95 dB at 10 watts but have 3 dB of compression at 105 dB, they need 200 watts to hit 105 dB. I can, if I have the power, get the 105 dB peaks up to 105 dB,by increasing my levels 3 dB somewhere in the chain. Then my supposed-to-be 95 dB will be at 98 dB because the amp is linear until it's own limits yield compression. So you are still compressed at higher spls but have thrown, what, 90 percent of the total soundtrack out of whack because it is too loud. More power can overcome speaker compression, up to a point, at the high spl end but the amp just is not smart enough to put out 10 watts for the 95 dB passages and 200 watts for the 105 dB peaks. It will do an accurate 10 watts for the 95 dB Section and 100 watts for the 105 dB passages. Or it will give you 20 watts for what should be the 95 dB passages and 200 watts for the 105 dB peaks. Absent an expander, properly calibrated,you are stuck with the speakers' compression from one direction or the other.
Yep, when I read that a person says, reference level is loud and harsh, that tells me right there, a lot about their system. It is harsh because of distortion and loud, because they are compressing the peaks, killing the dynamics and as they turn it up more, they are just raising the lower level sounds closer to the peaks. Then, dynamics is gone and it just sounds like loud crap. A really good clean system will sound good at reference level, especially if the room has some treatments.
lovinthehd likes this.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #67 of 94 Old 12-16-2014, 05:37 PM
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 16,231
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4588 Post(s)
Liked: 4802
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
Yep, when I read that a person says, reference level is loud and harsh, that tells me right there, a lot about their system. It is harsh because of distortion and loud, because they are compressing the peaks, killing the dynamics and as they turn it up more, they are just raising the lower level sounds closer to the peaks. Then, dynamics is gone and it just sounds like loud crap. A really good clean system will sound good at reference level, especially if the room has some treatments.
Exactly why its better to get more capable speakers than a more capable amp....
lovinthehd is offline  
post #68 of 94 Old 12-16-2014, 06:56 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Jinjuku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,337
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post
of course they did, the polk cult following is some of the most laughable bul-lag-na I have seen. make sure you get those bridge holders for your speaker cable.
They even believe that Ethernet cables carrying non-realtime data can sound different. Not the place to go to for any advice based even remotely in a what is considered a logical thought process or based on how things actually work.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

Jinjuku is offline  
post #69 of 94 Old 12-16-2014, 08:05 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mmiles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 4,584
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1134 Post(s)
Liked: 585
Can't sleep so I will chime in.

No matter the compression, dynamics or headroom 105db + of SPL will hurt many folks ears. It can be coming out of a speaker or jet engine.

Mike Miles
[email protected]
mmiles is offline  
post #70 of 94 Old 12-16-2014, 08:20 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
MichaelJHuman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 18,923
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 266 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Years ago I thought my speakers (Magnepan MG-IIIa's) would handle anything I threw at them, and they would, for me. Then my toddler threw a ball at them...
My goal one day is to get speakers that can handle movies at near reference level. I know I have enough power, but sometimes I suspect by B&W 600 series speakers can't quite keep up at -10 dB or louder

Hard to tell without having an AB comparison as I am not sure if my room is partly to blame

"But this one goes up to 11"
MichaelJHuman is offline  
post #71 of 94 Old 12-16-2014, 08:54 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 27,902
Mentioned: 279 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13516 Post(s)
Liked: 11139
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
Can't sleep so I will chime in.

No matter the compression, dynamics or headroom 105db + of SPL will hurt many folks ears. It can be coming out of a speaker or jet engine.
Did you listen to the JBL Atmos demo at CEDIA? It was played at reference level. I think the subs may even been run a little hot. Don't recall hearing people complaining about the SPL. I think several other rooms were played at reference also.

Last edited by Mike Garrett; 12-16-2014 at 09:00 PM.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #72 of 94 Old 12-16-2014, 09:50 PM
 
audio4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post
I've owned the following brands of consumer audiophile amps: Parasound, Carver, Adcom.

At one point I owned two Parasound HCA 1000A's. On a whim I purchased a Crown XLS 402D for $179 on closeout. That Crown was actually cleaner than my 1000A's.

So much so that for three years I offered any one that wanted free Parasound Amp's PLUS $500 to come on over and in 10 coin flips, single blind and stone cold, pick out the Audiophile Parasound out vs the Crown.

One thing I will say is that I actually made $$ on selling my Parasounds. The fact remains the Crown was ink black in it's noise floor vs the Parasound.

My setup will drive either RCA or XLR level inputs which is the thing to be concerned with when using XLR inputs on RCA outputs.
Wait. So you're saying that all amps do not sound the same? Where did you get that idea, from listening with your ears?
audio4life is offline  
post #73 of 94 Old 12-16-2014, 10:09 PM
Member
 
avParsec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Alright...can anyone else offer any insight with regard to pro amps vs. consumer amps? Should one "out perform" another? I ask because in the link I provided, it's suggested that consumer amps become "overpriced" in nature when comparing them to the performance of pro amps...
There's a few other things need mentioning. People have noted how pro multi-channel can be dearer then consumer, everything comes down to the size of the market. The pro market is bigger, the number of Crown amps made each year compared to Emotiva is a big difference - and this is reflected in the price. It also means Crown can control the production line in places like China - smaller boutique companies cannot control stuff made in China and that causes problems and cost.

The biggest difference with pro gear is it doesn't have the signalling - there's no triggers, there's no auto-sensing, well ok a few models do have it, but mostly if you buy pro, like a Crown XLS1000, you have to use your finger to turn it off and on

The biggest thing to look for is not the power, it's the features and the build quality - there are literally 1000's of "pro" amps coming out of China and most aren't worth the packing that surrounds them. Remember to look for a brand name and ensure your amp provides adequate protection or else if it shorts it's going to destroy your speakers - and that can be costly. Output current limiting, DC protection, circuit breakers, thermal protection, diagnostic capabilities, peak limiting etc etc etc. This is the stuff you want to look for when you buy pro amps.

Personally I buy pro amps.. but then that's just my choice
avParsec is offline  
post #74 of 94 Old 12-17-2014, 04:09 AM
 
htpcforever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 919
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 493 Post(s)
Liked: 193
Which pro amps have a trigger?
htpcforever is offline  
post #75 of 94 Old 12-17-2014, 05:52 AM
Member
 
avParsec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 21
^^^^ Usually the pro install amps, the multi-channel ones will have triggers and such as they are for installations with central control. The Crown CT series for example (4 and 8 channel amps). But as others have noted, when you start getting into multi-channel the economic benefits between pro and domestic change.
avParsec is offline  
post #76 of 94 Old 12-17-2014, 06:50 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Jinjuku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,337
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
Wait. So you're saying that all amps do not sound the same? Where did you get that idea, from listening with your ears?
What I am saying is that the Parasounds presented in such a manner that on my speakers I would have no problems blind picking them out.

The Parasounds had tweeter hiss the Crown did not. That IS a difference in amps.

Also good amps should present without hiss, good S/N ratio, ability to adjust gain (IMO), drive very linearly, good crest factor, ability to handle wide phase angle and reactive loads.

Anybody can design an amp and make it sound different and market that difference.
lovinthehd likes this.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.


Last edited by Jinjuku; 12-17-2014 at 06:56 AM.
Jinjuku is offline  
post #77 of 94 Old 12-17-2014, 06:57 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mmiles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 4,584
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1134 Post(s)
Liked: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
Did you listen to the JBL Atmos demo at CEDIA? It was played at reference level. I think the subs may even been run a little hot. Don't recall hearing people complaining about the SPL. I think several other rooms were played at reference also.
Yes I did very impressive with the 36 speakers or so.


Again peaks of up to a just beyond 105dB but continuous levels at that range will damage your hearing.


Getting back to the post at hand. I have had both pro and consumer amps in the rack [McIntosh MC205, Cary Cinema 5, Sunfire TGA5400, Parasound Halo A51 and Audio Control Savoy] was wells as pro [QSC and Face Audio] and to me at the end of the day for home theater they all were close.


Its a matter of connection [some pro amps are TRS 1/4" only], multiple AC cords [most pro amps are 2 ch] and ability for pre pro or avr to drive the amp. Some have said one box is convenience then one can say 3 or 4 amps put less strain on the power supply vs. a 5 or 7 ch amp.


Cost is a factor. A good consumer grade 5-7 ch amp can range say from $2000 MSRP to $7000 MSRP where 3 or 4 2ch pro amps can range from $600 - $4000 [some like Lab Gruppen much more]

Mike Miles
[email protected]
mmiles is offline  
post #78 of 94 Old 12-17-2014, 07:21 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 27,902
Mentioned: 279 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13516 Post(s)
Liked: 11139
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
Yes I did very impressive with the 36 speakers or so.


Again peaks of up to a just beyond 105dB but continuous levels at that range will damage your hearing.


Getting back to the post at hand. I have had both pro and consumer amps in the rack [McIntosh MC205, Cary Cinema 5, Sunfire TGA5400, Parasound Halo A51 and Audio Control Savoy] was wells as pro [QSC and Face Audio] and to me at the end of the day for home theater they all were close.


Its a matter of connection [some pro amps are TRS 1/4" only], multiple AC cords [most pro amps are 2 ch] and ability for pre pro or avr to drive the amp. Some have said one box is convenience then one can say 3 or 4 amps put less strain on the power supply vs. a 5 or 7 ch amp.


Cost is a factor. A good consumer grade 5-7 ch amp can range say from $2000 MSRP to $7000 MSRP where 3 or 4 2ch pro amps can range from $600 - $4000 [some like Lab Gruppen much more]
No argument about continuous 105db levels, but with HT we are alway only talking about peaks. I wish I could find the link where I read about just how loud of a peak, dropping a spoon onto a concrete floor was. I was surprised it was that loud. In real life we hear sounds that have very high peaks and don't think twice about it, like thunder. It is noises at continuous levels that makes us run for the hills.

I agree with you on the amps, both work fine, if you can live with the limitations (or provide a work around) and noise from pro amps.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #79 of 94 Old 12-17-2014, 02:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Wrager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Acworth, GA
Posts: 1,811
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 304 Post(s)
Liked: 178
For my JBL 4622's, I wanted to actively bi-amp them so pro amps was really the only choice, Crown DSi series have presets for my speakers!
Wrager is offline  
post #80 of 94 Old 12-17-2014, 04:32 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,088
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1359 Post(s)
Liked: 798
avParsec covered pretty much everything important. I only have one general thing to add: current pro amps tend to have the rack mounting points integrated into the front plate, so they're 19" wide. (As opposed to a lot of older stuff that had removable rack ears.) Yet most "higher end" furniture designed to hold audio kit will not fit 19" wide components. I learned that the hard way with my BDI equipment cabinet. So that's something else to consider, if the equipment will not be hidden away in a basement, utility closet, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Modern Times View Post
Do class A/B amps sound better than class D. I don't know myself.
In most cases, the answer is "yes," assuming "better" means "closer to the original signal." The problem with most Class D designs is that they have fairly high, and variable, source impedance. (The exceptions of which I know are Hypex UcD/nCore, Icepower ASX2, and Anaview. Those perform basically identically to AB. Presumably there are others.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Modern Times View Post
Would you guys say then that Behringer's lower priced offerings like the iNuke 3000 will sound just as good as higher priced crown amps of similar wattage?***
I've compared my Crest ProLite2.0 (the "high end" version of the Peavey IPR1600, and I believe the iNukes are knockoffs of the Peavey IPR/Crest ProLite design) to my ATI AT2007, and the midrange differences on conventional (multiway with passive crossover) speakers is easy to hear. With active systems, the differences are less important because the filters will be designed for the amp + driver combination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Modern Times View Post
Does a separate pre-amp with external amps sound better than a receiver with similar wattage?
It may be worse, actually, because of gain mismatch issues, induced noise from external cables, ground loops, etc. One benefit of an integrated design is that everything can be optimally matched.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
I didn't even realize pro amp manufacturers BUILT multichannel models; interesting indeed...
Yep. Ashly has some really neat ones with built in DSP. I use an ElectroVoice CPS8.5 to drive my subs. While a nicely crafted little beast, it's not a cheap amp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
Only problem with the calculators, they do not account for power compression, which can be 3 to 9db, which is a lot. Also if the room is treated, you will usually get more drop off for distance than what the calculators give.
I'll grant you the former, but the latter is exactly wrong. The calculators are only valid outdoors or in anechoic chambers, with is the maximum possible falloff. Any small room (as defined in acoustics, i.e. <50' in at least one dimension) will have less falloff with distance than outdoors or an anechoic chamber.

--
"In many cases there aren’t two sides unless one side is 'reality' and the other is 'nonsense.'" - Phil Plait
Serious Audio Blog 
DS-21 is offline  
post #81 of 94 Old 12-17-2014, 05:37 PM
The Village Idiot
 
Knucklehead90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: State of Confusion - 98823
Posts: 9,521
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 848 Post(s)
Liked: 786
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
Did you notice who started the thread at the home theater equipment forum referenced in that bluray forum thread?
'Big Daddy' is the one who was pushing Acoustic Audio subwoofers on the Blu Ray forum a few years back. I bought one for a nephew - damned thing was junk. More than a few had the same experience. Trouble is he's a moderator so you can't really tell him he's full of it without getting banned. Which he was on those subwoofers.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=85212

And I'm not saying he is wrong on the pro amps. I've had several of them and was very impressed. Especially with the Crown XLS-1500. The Behringer EP-1500 was pretty decent too once I modded the fan.

Yamaha A-S1000 - Salk Song Towers - HTPC (Linux) - Oppo 103 - Marantz TT42 (WWG1WGA) --- Twas a woman who drove me to drink. I never had the decency to write and thank her ~ WC Fields
Knucklehead90 is offline  
post #82 of 94 Old 12-17-2014, 05:52 PM
 
audio4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post
What I am saying is that the Parasounds presented in such a manner that on my speakers I would have no problems blind picking them out.

The Parasounds had tweeter hiss the Crown did not. That IS a difference in amps.

Also good amps should present without hiss, good S/N ratio, ability to adjust gain (IMO), drive very linearly, good crest factor, ability to handle wide phase angle and reactive loads.

Anybody can design an amp and make it sound different and market that difference.
Okay, that's different. Obviously the Parasounds had some kind of issue. Not sure why you'd left off commenting about the other amps you mentioned, but at the end of the day what matters is in your unique system, you found an amp you liked best, for whatever reason. There has been way too much "all amps sound the same" nonsense on this forum.
audio4life is offline  
post #83 of 94 Old 12-17-2014, 05:55 PM
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 16,231
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4588 Post(s)
Liked: 4802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 View Post
'Big Daddy' is the one who was pushing Acoustic Audio subwoofers on the Blu Ray forum a few years back. I bought one for a nephew - damned thing was junk. More than a few had the same experience. Trouble is he's a moderator so you can't really tell him he's full of it without getting banned. Which he was on those subwoofers.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=85212

And I'm not saying he is wrong on the pro amps. I've had several of them and was very impressed. Especially with the Crown XLS-1500. The Behringer EP-1500 was pretty decent too once I modded the fan.
Isn't Big Daddy also the one that espouses sonic benefits from foam pads under subs?
lovinthehd is offline  
post #84 of 94 Old 12-17-2014, 06:12 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Jinjuku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,337
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
Okay, that's different. Obviously the Parasounds had some kind of issue. Not sure why you'd left off commenting about the other amps you mentioned, but at the end of the day what matters is in your unique system, you found an amp you liked best, for whatever reason. There has been way too much "all amps sound the same" nonsense on this forum.
I'm of the mindset that Amps should be a straight wire with gain. Able to linearly drive through it's power envelope, hold up under wide phase angle and highly reactive loads.

Amps are now a commodity item. Pick one from a reputable manufacturer and spend money on room treatment, speakers, and may be a bit of EQ to taste.

I'll say it plainly: $800 or less should get 99.9% of people out there all the amp they could need regardless of the cost of the speakers.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

Jinjuku is offline  
post #85 of 94 Old 12-17-2014, 06:12 PM
The Village Idiot
 
Knucklehead90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: State of Confusion - 98823
Posts: 9,521
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 848 Post(s)
Liked: 786
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Isn't Big Daddy also the one that espouses sonic benefits from foam pads under subs?
I didn't read that but I can imagine him hawking those too. I wonder if he gets a kickback from huckstering those products.

Yamaha A-S1000 - Salk Song Towers - HTPC (Linux) - Oppo 103 - Marantz TT42 (WWG1WGA) --- Twas a woman who drove me to drink. I never had the decency to write and thank her ~ WC Fields
Knucklehead90 is offline  
post #86 of 94 Old 12-17-2014, 06:30 PM
 
audio4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post
I'm of the mindset that Amps should be a straight wire with gain. Able to linearly drive through it's power envelope, hold up under wide phase angle and highly reactive loads.

Amps are now a commodity item. Pick one from a reputable manufacturer and spend money on room treatment, speakers, and may be a bit of EQ to taste.

I'll say it plainly: $800 or less should get 99.9% of people out there all the amp they could need regardless of the cost of the speakers.
Right, and if that works for you, then that's all that matters, more power to you.
audio4life is offline  
post #87 of 94 Old 12-17-2014, 06:58 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tenthplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Mexico, South of Oregon, West of desert
Posts: 6,914
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2432 Post(s)
Liked: 3958
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
I stumbled upon this thread over at Blu-ray.com:


http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=210902


and it now has me second-guessing going with something like an Emotiva with regard to adding external amplification...


It seems the "renowned" mod there, one "Big Daddy" -- don't get me started on this one -- is of the staunch belief that once one hears a pro amp perform it's easy to understand why consumer-grade amps (Emotiva, et al) are "so overpriced"...does anyone agree with this? Are pro amps from the likes of Crown, QSC, etc. the way to go for external home theater amplification? And would these make tremendous audible differences over using an AVR in a typical 5.1 setup?
All amps sound different pro amps are designed to operate in less than ideal situations but may not have sound you want.Or they might trust your ears
tenthplanet is offline  
post #88 of 94 Old 12-17-2014, 07:29 PM
 
audio4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 View Post
I didn't read that but I can imagine him hawking those too. I wonder if he gets a kickback from huckstering those products.
I keep waiting for the mods to break in with an admonition not to relate what goes on in other forums as they've done regarding the Emotiva forum. Does one contact them somehow or are they letting this one go? Maybe big daddy has a bad rep?
audio4life is offline  
post #89 of 94 Old 12-17-2014, 07:38 PM
The Village Idiot
 
Knucklehead90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: State of Confusion - 98823
Posts: 9,521
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 848 Post(s)
Liked: 786
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
I keep waiting for the mods to break in with an admonition not to relate what goes on in other forums as they've done regarding the Emotiva forum. Does one contact them somehow or are they letting this one go? Maybe big daddy has a bad rep?
I think the difference is Emotiva advertises here - take a look at the top of any page here. I don't have a problem with the mods here. I did get 'dinged' one evening a few years ago for allegedly insulting someone. When I asked the mod to point out what I'd done I was threatened with a ban if I didn't 'move along'. I read what I had posted for that day and wasn't able to figure that one out. Someone obviously was very sensitive that evening.
bootman_head_fi likes this.

Yamaha A-S1000 - Salk Song Towers - HTPC (Linux) - Oppo 103 - Marantz TT42 (WWG1WGA) --- Twas a woman who drove me to drink. I never had the decency to write and thank her ~ WC Fields
Knucklehead90 is offline  
post #90 of 94 Old 12-17-2014, 08:53 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 27,902
Mentioned: 279 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13516 Post(s)
Liked: 11139
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
avParsec covered pretty much everything important. I only have one general thing to add: current pro amps tend to have the rack mounting points integrated into the front plate, so they're 19" wide. (As opposed to a lot of older stuff that had removable rack ears.) Yet most "higher end" furniture designed to hold audio kit will not fit 19" wide components. I learned that the hard way with my BDI equipment cabinet. So that's something else to consider, if the equipment will not be hidden away in a basement, utility closet, etc.



In most cases, the answer is "yes," assuming "better" means "closer to the original signal." The problem with most Class D designs is that they have fairly high, and variable, source impedance. (The exceptions of which I know are Hypex UcD/nCore, Icepower ASX2, and Anaview. Those perform basically identically to AB. Presumably there are others.)



I've compared my Crest ProLite2.0 (the "high end" version of the Peavey IPR1600, and I believe the iNukes are knockoffs of the Peavey IPR/Crest ProLite design) to my ATI AT2007, and the midrange differences on conventional (multiway with passive crossover) speakers is easy to hear. With active systems, the differences are less important because the filters will be designed for the amp + driver combination.



It may be worse, actually, because of gain mismatch issues, induced noise from external cables, ground loops, etc. One benefit of an integrated design is that everything can be optimally matched.



Yep. Ashly has some really neat ones with built in DSP. I use an ElectroVoice CPS8.5 to drive my subs. While a nicely crafted little beast, it's not a cheap amp.



I'll grant you the former, but the latter is exactly wrong. The calculators are only valid outdoors or in anechoic chambers, with is the maximum possible falloff. Any small room (as defined in acoustics, i.e. <50' in at least one dimension) will have less falloff with distance than outdoors or an anechoic chamber.


I don't use the calculators, but I seemed to recall looking at one that used 3db reduction for doubling the distance. In my small treated room, I get more drop off that that.
Mike Garrett is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off