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post #9211 of 9665 Old 05-10-2019, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by anilpani View Post
I don't understand what ARC Genesis is doing to set the channel levels. When I start the calibration, the program asks me to turn down my subs, but then when complete it sets the subwoofer levels at 8+ dB. The channel levels are totally different from ARC2. I really think there is something wrong going on with the software.
I got the same problem. Genesis finished boosting all speaker levels +8 - 12 including subwoofer. After upload i just manually reduced -10db from all channels. Sound is around same level as old version. Where my typical listening is -30 in dial.

Id rather send below 0db signal to sub and let the sub trim handle the boosting.

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post #9212 of 9665 Old 05-10-2019, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
The proof is in the pudding. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]
I did some testing, and male voices develop a distortion when you correct too high.

At 10 kHz and higher on Ready Player One, go to 1:35:15..."How long does it last, this orb thing?"

I get a garble in the voice when I set the Max EQ above 5 kHz. Noticed it in other areas, too. Listen to 1:30:59, too. It's pretty bad.

Could just be this source, but I don't think so.
I experience this as well even with max EQ set at default of 5kHz.

ARC Genesis seems more like beta software. I think I’ll go back to ARC2 until all of the bugs are worked out.
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post #9213 of 9665 Old 05-10-2019, 11:35 PM
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So i will be the first to admit, i have has some serious issues with anthem in the past, so much so that i actually got rid of my avm60 and went a different route, but ended up back with a different acm60.

So i have had my system running well with arc2 and was actually pretty darn happy with it. But like anyone i wanted to see what all the genesis buzz was about. And i honestly didnt really expect much, seeing as i thought i was great already. But man was i wrong. So heres the system, 95f, 55c, 15b, and dual sb4000. I ran genesis, and got all my targets the way i wanted them and uploaded. To my surprise genesis took what i thought was good to another level. Best way i can explain it, its like going from cheap interconnects to quality interconnects. Lol, i know here comes the wires dont matter comments, lol. But with the little bit of time i got to listen this morning i was impressed. I have to retract my statement of the past about anthem being just a so so product. The main thing i noticed right off the bat was that everything seemed to have a better balance in the soundstage, the imaging seemed to be even more correct. With arc2 music seemed to be vailed. While i will admit i only listened to music so far running it thru my rega dac. I am intrested to see how music sounds using the avm60 dac. But the sceen on a movie called 33, where this big bolder well and smashed a truck and sent the truck flying towards the screen, the low end actually had punch now. It literally felt like the truck smashed right into me. I will be putting genesis thru its pace's this weekend. Hunter killer, a quiet place, ready player one, john wick, the revereant and a few others will being played. The only thing i cant wait for now is, for my college child to move out of my basement so i can setup the system in atmos. Currently i am only able to run 5.1 in my main room due to having vaulted ceilings and no place to put rear speakers as my mlp is against the back wall. But all in all i will say i am very impressed at the new version of arc, and strongly recommend it
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post #9214 of 9665 Old 05-11-2019, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I do not want to exclude speakers from the system, just exclude them from being equalized.
Yes, but...

The only way is to turn them off in ARC calibration and turn them on later.
You cannot do that for front speakers.

For subwoofer it's easy - just set max correction frequency above crossover frequency.

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post #9215 of 9665 Old 05-11-2019, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pau View Post
I got the same problem. Genesis finished boosting all speaker levels +8 - 12 including subwoofer. After upload i just manually reduced -10db from all channels. Sound is around same level as old version. Where my typical listening is -30 in dial.

Id rather send below 0db signal to sub and let the sub trim handle the boosting.
If the Genesis calibration has all channels boosted +8 to +12 dB, then indeed the sub trim is handling the boosting. No?

I do not see this as a problem. Your results would appear to be the ideal IMHO. All the channels are similar in gain, and you have the unusual pleasure of being able to set them such that MV calibration can be either "Anthem standard" -10 or THX standard of 0.

Some systems have too much variation among the channels, forcing ARC to choose one over the other.

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Originally Posted by anilpani View Post
I don't understand what ARC Genesis is doing to set the channel levels. When I start the calibration, the program asks me to turn down my subs, but then when complete it sets the subwoofer levels at 8+ dB. The channel levels are totally different from ARC2. I really think there is something wrong going on with the software.
What is the gain range for the other speakers? I believe that impacts what ARC wants to see from the subwoofer. I could be wrong...

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post #9216 of 9665 Old 05-11-2019, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anilpani View Post
I don't understand what ARC Genesis is doing to set the channel levels. When I start the calibration, the program asks me to turn down my subs, but then when complete it sets the subwoofer levels at 8+ dB. The channel levels are totally different from ARC2. I really think there is something wrong going on with the software.
There is something wonky here for sure.

With ARC-2, I used quick measure to set my subs individually at 72dB, so when both were turned on, I got a 77dB reading. That was the instruction.

Without touching the subs, Genesis quick measured each sub at only 66dB, so I had to adjust them higher to 72dB before running calibration.

Plus, when I turned on both subs together, quick measure didn't increase. It stayed at 72dB. How is that?

It sounds great, but obviously it either works differently or needs bugs worked out.

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post #9217 of 9665 Old 05-11-2019, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
There is something wonky here for sure.

With ARC-2, I used quick measure to set my subs individually at 72dB, so when both were turned on, I got a 77dB reading. That was the instruction.

Without touching the subs, Genesis quick measured each sub at only 66dB, so I had to adjust them higher to 72dB before running calibration.

Plus, when I turned on both subs together, quick measure didn't increase. It stayed at 72dB. How is that?

It sounds great, but obviously it either works differently or needs bugs worked out.

I believe you're the first person to report your subs were too low. Everyone else seems to have had to turn theirs down.

the lounj is a general interest/hobby discussion forum.
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post #9218 of 9665 Old 05-11-2019, 10:56 AM
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Understood, and I don't doubt your conclusions.

ARC Genesis takes measurements, calculates and applies corrections, and then shows you a plot of what it ASSUMES your new speaker frequency response will be.

But unless you measure the post-correction, in-room response, say, with a microphone and REW, you don't know what you're getting.

For example, take a look at this: http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speak...-interference/

You could have a nasty 10 dB null at, say, 80Hz because of SBIR. Genesis will apply its maximum correction to boost that frequency, and then show you a resultant plot that says, "see, I fixed this!"

But in reality the null is still there, as bad as ever! And ARC probably degraded your overall sound quality by applying severe DSP processing in an attempt to fix something that it couldn't.

Just some food for though...

Thanks for the reply and the link. Leaving the Room Gain at 3 dB may very well have been generating the undesirable side-effect you suggested, and reducing the Room Gain could be reducing that side-effect.

I'm aware of the nulls produced by boundary effects, but have yet to discover any real solution, especially one with a reasonable WAF. It seems to me that changing speaker placement really changes only the cancellation frequency one way or another. Regardless of their distance away from the front wall, speakers will be prone to 1/4-wavelengh nulls at some freq, so moving them around is typically an exercise in futility.

Fortunately for me, the boundary effects in my room don't appear to be as severe as some, with a "mere" uncorrected 7-dB dip centered at about 90 Hz when the sub's cone is approx. 3 ft away from the front wall. I wouldn't want to move that null any higher in the spectrum, but getting it below the bass region would require a ridiculous distance from the wall - about 19 ft for a 1/4-wavelength at 15 Hz according to THIS calculator.

Anyway, the system sounds great with the reduced Room Gain setting, and is producing strong and well-defined bass just the way I like it. I think I'll just leave well enough alone.

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post #9219 of 9665 Old 05-11-2019, 12:25 PM
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New version of Genesis is online:
https://www.anthemarc.com/downloads/index.php

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Version 1.0.1.8867:
- Added a new shortcut in the start menu that forces ARC Genesis to use the angle library rather than the GPU's (ims 1399)
- changes to preferences are commited on immediate exit (1371)
- loading indicator is now shown with device image image in middle on screen (1366)
- 'button' ui element can now support two lines of text (1380)
- removed duplicate completion text for reset eq screen (1373)
- added a browse for calibration file to mic selection screen (1390)
- fixed an issue where calibration files that included 'Anthem', 'Paradigm' or 'MartinLogan' in the filename were not supported (1390)
- fixed an issue where some code paths did not properly handle unicode text/paths (1390, 1391)
- added a web download link for manual calibration file download (1390)
- fixed the issue where some users were unable to download calibration files, or would get the 'critical audio problem' during the initialization phase of measurements (1390)
- filtered duplicate devices in the supported devices screen (1379)
- paired (left/right) MartinLogan Masterpiece series speakers now have a unique curve color for the left/right speaker (1384)
- fixed packaging of mac release where license.txt and firmware update files were not being copied to the application bundle (1400, 1378, 1398)

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post #9220 of 9665 Old 05-11-2019, 07:07 PM
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I believe you're the first person to report your subs were too low. Everyone else seems to have had to turn theirs down.
Something else I'm trying to understand.

Why doesn't the dB level increase with two subs as opposed to one? If I set both subs individually to 72 dB, then turn them both on, I don't get an increase. In ARC-2, I did, by about 5 dB.

That makes no sense.

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post #9221 of 9665 Old 05-11-2019, 07:19 PM
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I believe you're the first person to report your subs were too low. Everyone else seems to have had to turn theirs down.
My system has extra dB too with Genesis.

However, I promise you, if you run quick measure on ARC-2 with your sub set at -20 gain, you'll get a higher dB reading in ARC-2 than you will with Genesis.

However, after running calibration, no doubt the entire system is about +3-5dB louder with Genesis than ARC-2.

Must be an entirely different approach in the algorithms.

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post #9222 of 9665 Old 05-11-2019, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
If the Genesis calibration has all channels boosted +8 to +12 dB, then indeed the sub trim is handling the boosting. No?



I do not see this as a problem. Your results would appear to be the ideal IMHO. All the channels are similar in gain, and you have the unusual pleasure of being able to set them such that MV calibration can be either "Anthem standard" -10 or THX standard of 0.



Some systems have too much variation among the channels, forcing ARC to choose one over the other.



I think i was not clear enough with the terms. Indeed the sub trim is handling boosting. I would much rather have subwoofers own gain to handle it and trim to be in negative side for easier adjusting on the fly and avoid clipping etc. To my knowledge its common advice to have subwoofer trim levels in negative side and use gain from subwoofer to better sounding woofer. There is a very good thread about this topic in subwoofer threads.

So ARC2 had things calculated quite differently as Genesis has all trim levels including the subwoofer on
Much higher boost.

Nonetheless its a wonderful sound and as i never reach reference levels, i reduced 8db on all channel trim levels to be closer to +-0db on trims. Subwoofer a bit more and used gain instead to compensate.

Would have been automatic with old ARC was what i wondered. Mayby the new ARC is indeed 75db and old was 64db that would explain the case in my system. Its 3years ago that i last run it so cant recall for sure.


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post #9223 of 9665 Old 05-12-2019, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
I did some testing, and male voices develop a distortion when you correct too high.

At 10 kHz and higher on Ready Player One, go to 1:35:15..."How long does it last, this orb thing?"

I get a garble in the voice when I set the Max EQ above 5 kHz. Noticed it in other areas, too. Listen to 1:30:59, too. It's pretty bad.

Could just be this source, but I don't think so.
I did some further testing today, and can confirm that, at least in my system, Genesis is causing significant clipping distortion in several channels -- only in the presence of signals that exceed -9 dBFS. It's quite easy to confirm with REW. I ran some sine waves in and found that the headroom is lowest where the EQ gains are highest. Distortion becomes audible with EQ boost as low as a couple of dB, when sweeping with 0 dBFS sine waves.

With ARC turned off, the distortion goes away.

I reloaded my previous .arc2 file and that also remedied the distortion -- mostly. The issue exists in one channel -- Right Back, which has the same overload problem.

It's actually not a difficult problem to solve -- just some gain shifts before and after the DAC.

I reported the findings to Anthem.

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post #9224 of 9665 Old 05-12-2019, 01:03 AM
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I assume that lowering all speaker levels manually doesn't help?
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post #9225 of 9665 Old 05-12-2019, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
I did some testing, and male voices develop a distortion when you correct too high.

At 10 kHz and higher on Ready Player One, go to 1:35:15..."How long does it last, this orb thing?"

I get a garble in the voice when I set the Max EQ above 5 kHz. Noticed it in other areas, too. Listen to 1:30:59, too. It's pretty bad.

Could just be this source, but I don't think so.
I did some further testing today, and can confirm that, at least in my system, Genesis is causing significant clipping distortion in several channels -- only in the presence of signals that exceed -9 dBFS. It's quite easy to confirm with REW. I ran some sine waves in and found that the headroom is lowest where the EQ gains are highest. Distortion becomes audible with EQ boost as low as a couple of dB, when sweeping with 0 dBFS sine waves.

With ARC turned off, the distortion goes away.

I reloaded my previous .arc2 file and that also remedied the distortion -- mostly. The issue exists in one channel -- Left Back, which has the same overload problem.

It's actually not a difficult problem to solve -- just some gain shifts before and after the DAC.

I reported the findings to Anthem.
Good work. Thankfully, that's at levels I hope most will never listen. Of course, I know some have really big rooms or play speakers outside.

To address the male voice problem, I've set my Max EQ for the center channel at 1kHz and the fronts at 2kHz. The surrounds at 14kHz.

Genesis works much better with higher Max EQ than ARC-2 did for sure.

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post #9226 of 9665 Old 05-12-2019, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Good work. Thankfully, that's at levels I hope most will never listen. Of course, I know some have really big rooms or play speakers outside.

To address the male voice problem, I've set my Max EQ for the center channel at 1kHz and the fronts at 2kHz. The surrounds at 14kHz.

Genesis works much better with higher Max EQ than ARC-2 did for sure.
I experienced this clipping distortion with male voices at far below reference volume levels. I did not change the max EQ from the default 5 kHz. Seems crazy to me that room correction, which is supposed to improve the sound, can result in clipping!
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post #9227 of 9665 Old 05-12-2019, 08:15 AM
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Digital clipping / distortion is independent from SPL / master volume.

This is a major Genesis bug :/
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post #9228 of 9665 Old 05-12-2019, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Good work. Thankfully, that's at levels I hope most will never listen. Of course, I know some have really big rooms or play speakers outside.

To address the male voice problem, I've set my Max EQ for the center channel at 1kHz and the fronts at 2kHz. The surrounds at 14kHz.

Genesis works much better with higher Max EQ than ARC-2 did for sure.
I experienced this clipping distortion with male voices at far below reference volume levels. I did not change the max EQ from the default 5 kHz. Seems crazy to me that room correction, which is supposed to improve the sound, can result in clipping!
I keep the center channel EQ at 1kHz, and it's resolved. I don't hear distortion in anything but deep male voices.

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post #9229 of 9665 Old 05-12-2019, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by rkmelody View Post
Quick question, after arc completion the room report part of the genesis calibration sets my subwoofer level at 0db. However upon uploading arc file to the anthem avm 60, the processor shows my channel level set at +5db in setup. Not sure why that is the case.

You should hit up the AVM/MRX owner threads - lots of discussion around Genesis right now....

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post #9230 of 9665 Old 05-12-2019, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delija View Post
Digital clipping / distortion is independent from SPL / master volume.

This is a major Genesis bug :/
Yes, I can attest to this. I was listening to some LP's last night with ARC engaged at a normal listening volume and heard some very obvious distortion in the FR channel. I had heard what I though was distortion in the center a few days earlier when watching Spiderman Homecoming, also at a very normal (actually below my normal) listening level. Didn't think much of it at the time because it wasn't a movie I was intimately familiar with sound-wise, so kind of dismissed it as just part of the audio. But when I noticed distortion from my LP's which I never heard before, I knew something was up. I've gone back to my latest ARC2 profile. Sounds much, much better. I think I'll give Genesis a little more time to mature.

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post #9231 of 9665 Old 05-12-2019, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by rkmelody View Post
Quick question, after arc completion the room report part of the genesis calibration sets my subwoofer level at 0db. However upon uploading arc file to the anthem avm 60, the processor shows my channel level set at +5db in setup. Not sure why that is the case.
That confused me, too, but it has to do with your room gain. What did Genesis set your room gain? Add that, and that should explain it.

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post #9232 of 9665 Old 05-12-2019, 10:55 AM
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Good work. Thankfully, that's at levels I hope most will never listen.
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Digital clipping / distortion is independent from SPL / master volume.

This is a major Genesis bug :/
Like he said. Neither changing volume or gain trims can fix it.

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I experienced this clipping distortion with male voices at far below reference volume levels. I did not change the max EQ from the default 5 kHz. Seems crazy to me that room correction, which is supposed to improve the sound, can result in clipping!
It's a bug. The good news is that that we have proof it is not a hardware limitation because we have seen ARC2 100% avoid the problem (in most channels anyway).

If any of you have REW with HDMI connectivity, please run a sweep and a) note the distortion at 0 dBFS (instead of a pure sine tone like a flute you hear a kazoo). Then progressively lower the generator level until distortion just disappears. Note the frequency and level. In the graph, the added red bars are the magnitude of the level reduction needed to eliminate the clipping. All three sampled points arrive at +1 dB of gain correction.

In other words, any part of the EQ curve that exceeds +1 dB is going to clip with worst case 0 dBFS signals. The algorithm needs an internal 9 dB gain offset -- in my case. I'd be curious to see results from others to see if this value is dependent on other factors.

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post #9233 of 9665 Old 05-12-2019, 01:33 PM
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I am coming here to ask for the opinions of anyone who's compared the AVM60 to the NAD M17, I'm currently using a Marantz 7702mk2 with Audessey disabled. No where to hear both so I'd like information or opinions on which would be the better choice. It's for my Theater,no video games just movies. Thanks for any help.

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post #9234 of 9665 Old 05-12-2019, 02:22 PM
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I am coming here to ask for the opinions of anyone who's compared the AVM60 to the NAD M17, I'm currently using a Marantz 7702mk2 with Audessey disabled. No where to hear both so I'd like information or opinions on which would be the better choice. It's for my Theater,no video games just movies. Thanks for any help.
Why do you wanna upgrade?

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post #9235 of 9665 Old 05-12-2019, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Delija View Post
Digital clipping / distortion is independent from SPL / master volume.

This is a major Genesis bug :/
It is somewhat amusing to note that digital clipping is sometimes intentionally introduced at the production end, and has been for some time.

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post #9236 of 9665 Old 05-12-2019, 03:38 PM
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I noticed the garbled sound with my MRX 720 as well. This was when using the default 5kHz settings. I noticed it while listing to music and it was only the FL speaker. Heard it with male and female voices. I was worried because I thought I actually had a damaged tweeter, LOL.

Among a few other changes I made, I've reduced the max correction frequency down to 500 Hz and I've no more issues.
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post #9237 of 9665 Old 05-12-2019, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
In other words, any part of the EQ curve that exceeds +1 dB is going to clip with worst case 0 dBFS signals. The algorithm needs an internal 9 dB gain offset

I was wondering how Genesis could produce "hotter" results without risking digital clipping. The apparent answer is that it can't.


I for one (and I assume most users) would prefer to sacrifice volume for the assurance that under no conditions would the algorithm induce clipping.
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post #9238 of 9665 Old 05-12-2019, 06:52 PM
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Why do you wanna upgrade?

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I've wanted to try Dirac for some time,also I wanted to get away from Audessey. What I've been reading is that NAD has a very good sound even without dirac,and I wanted to hear any opinions from someone who might have used both processors to try and see which way might be better for me.

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post #9239 of 9665 Old 05-13-2019, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMG View Post
I noticed the garbled sound with my MRX 720 as well. This was when using the default 5kHz settings. I noticed it while listing to music and it was only the FL speaker. Heard it with male and female voices. I was worried because I thought I actually had a damaged tweeter, LOL.

Among a few other changes I made, I've reduced the max correction frequency down to 500 Hz and I've no more issues.
I've changed max correction to 1kHz for the center channel, 2kHz for the fronts, and 14kHz for everything, and I haven't noticed any issues.

And I only used ARC-2 to 500 Hz because it stunted everything above that. Not so with Genesis, but there is this male voice issue.

Genesis still sounds much better than ARC-2, even with these unresolved issues. Hopefully, Anthem will resolve this, but so long as I keep the correction lower for the center and fronts, I'm not noticing any distortion in my system.

Video: JVC RS620/X9500 projector, Stewart ST130 screen, Panasonic ub820 UHD player
Audio: Anthem AVM60 preamp, Anthem MCA525 amp, B&K Reference 125.7 amp
Subs: dual SVS PC-12 cylinders
Speakers: RBH SV-661R and SV-661CR fronts, Jamo 626k4 side/rear surrounds, DefTech DI6.5R heights
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post #9240 of 9665 Old 05-13-2019, 02:12 PM
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stupid question here, but how do you get the latest update of the Genisis? I have the original version.
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