The Official Anthem AVM 60 thread - Page 320 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9571 of 9818 Old 07-29-2019, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Bluecow003 View Post
This link below is the closest explanation I've found regarding the Anthem master volume control. When I have my Anthem set to -20 on the master control volume, I get 85 dB SPL for normal frequencies and approximately 105 dB for the subs (I run them hot and get room gain, normal calibration would only yield 95 dB for the subs when the other speakers are at 85 dB), which corresponds with what the link below is talking about. Anthem's volume control is reporting the input level basically. A -20 dB signal is reference level.

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/201...ference-level/

"Reference level for all channels except low frequency effects is calibrated by adjusting the audio chain such that a pink noise signal recorded at -20dB relative to full scale (0dB) creates 85dB sound pressure level as measured with a C weighted SPL meter at the seating locations."
That link is not talking about Anthem's idiosyncracies, just the normal THX system calibration that Anthem ought to achieve.

Anyway, we can still look at that diagram in ref to the Anthems. What most people find is after ARC, a -20 dBFS signal would produce not 85 dB as shown, but 95 dB SPL. Then, after reducing the gain trims by 10 dB across the board, it will produce 85 dB. The sound quality will be identical in either case. All that is happening is the numerical value on the volume display is changed.

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When I have my Anthem set to -20 on the master control volume, I get 85 dB SPL for normal frequencies
Like from a movie soundtrack? The only sources that are reliable as an indicator of volume calibration are known level test signals. Do you have something like that?

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post #9572 of 9818 Old 07-30-2019, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by mamsterla View Post
I will definitely double check. Would not be unheard of that I bumped or had it set low. That would be funny if it came down to it. Thanks on the compliment. It is a very nice retro setup - Thorens TD-124 turntable, SME 3009 IIi arm and the Grace F-9E and Lounge Audio LCR III. I find it really musical and probably all the analog rig I will ever need.
Here I own the dang Lounge LCR Gold and I thought the knob only handled the headphone output. You were right in that it also handles the RCA output. Putting it max brought the levels up. I feel kinda dumb, but happy to have solved the volume problem as simply as possible. I need to see if there is a way to always have a full signal out. Thanks for the suggestion.
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post #9573 of 9818 Old 07-30-2019, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
That link is not talking about Anthem's idiosyncracies, just the normal THX system calibration that Anthem ought to achieve.

Anyway, we can still look at that diagram in ref to the Anthems. What most people find is after ARC, a -20 dBFS signal would produce not 85 dB as shown, but 95 dB SPL. Then, after reducing the gain trims by 10 dB across the board, it will produce 85 dB. The sound quality will be identical in either case. All that is happening is the numerical value on the volume display is changed.

Like from a movie soundtrack? The only sources that are reliable as an indicator of volume calibration are known level test signals. Do you have something like that?

I'm sure I could use REW to output test signals if I wanted, but movies probably have the most consistent volume calibration as far as media goes and every movie where I've pulled out my SPL meter shows pretty close to 85 dB (not the subs) at -20 volume control. My trims in the Anthem are set to 0 for my LCR channels as set by Genesis.

7.2.4 Setup | Display: LG 77" C8 OLED | Blu-ray: Oppo UDP-203 | Processor: Anthem AVM60 | Amps: Outlaw 7700, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2 | Speakers: Paradigm Prestige (2) 95F's, 55C, (4) 15B's, (4) CI-Elite E65-R (Atmos) | Subs: (2) Rythmik F25's
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post #9574 of 9818 Old 07-30-2019, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mamsterla View Post
Here I own the dang Lounge LCR Gold and I thought the knob only handled the headphone output. You were right in that it also handles the RCA output. Putting it max brought the levels up. I feel kinda dumb, but happy to have solved the volume problem as simply as possible. I need to see if there is a way to always have a full signal out. Thanks for the suggestion.
Glad it was that simple! I've been there too with an amp - thought I lost a channel but turns out one of the speaker cables got disconnected when I pulled the amp to adjust bias (that won't happen again as went to Blue Jeans wires with locking banana's).
Anyway, when I checked their website per your link, I did see that the phono gain was variable (0-47 db, as I recall). Not sure if there is a way to always have full gain - you'll have to ask the manufacturer or open it up and see how it's wired. Perhaps there's a way to disconnect the phono stage from the knob and jumper it for full output.


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Last edited by madrac; 07-30-2019 at 04:17 PM.
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post #9575 of 9818 Old 07-30-2019, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by madrac View Post
Glad it was that simple! I've been there too with an amp - thought I lost a channel but turns out one of the speaker cables got disconnected when I pulled the amp to adjust bias (that won't happen again as went to Blue Jeans wires with locking banana's).
Anyway, when I checked their website per your link, I did see that the phono gain was variable (0-47 db, as I recall). Not sure if there is a way to always have full gain - you'll have to ask the manufacturer or open it up and see how it's wired. Perhaps there's a way to disconnect the phono stage from the knob and jumper it for full output.


Love vinyl -- I'm running a VPI Classic 1 w/ 3D tonearm, Manley Chinook, and VAS NOVA 0.8mv MC HW special. Great equipment and great companies to do business with as they are really focused on customer service.
I downloaded the manual and sure enough in a single sentence they say both the RCA and headphone are governed by the variable gain. Easy for me to keep it set at max. It is actually a very good phono stage - better than any I have had in the past. I always liked VPI - good stuff. Seen, but never heard the Manley. The Chinook is supposed to be pretty versatile. I don't know the VAS NOVA - I will look it up. I really like my Grace F9-E. That is an amazing cartridge. Not sure I am missing anything compared to much more expensive MCs.

Thanks for the help. It was actually making me a bit crazy at the volume difference.

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post #9576 of 9818 Old 07-31-2019, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by mamsterla View Post

Thanks for the help. It was actually making me a bit crazy at the volume difference.
Yes, the Chinook is very versatile - MM, MC, variety of capacitance & load settings. It was a big upgrade for me (from a Musical Fidelity V90-LPS, which is a really good "budget" phono preamp, IMO). Plus awesome customer support after the sale!


Anyway, you're welcome. That's what these forums are for -- they've helped me on several occasions.
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post #9577 of 9818 Old 07-31-2019, 04:44 PM
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I have owned my avm60 for over a year and I am very pleased with the sound using arc2. I want to try Genesis but i am concerned about some folks saying that they heard clipping after running Genesis with the +10dB additional gain over arc2. If this is the case, why hasn't anthem changed/fixed this additional gain? Or is that something else?

Thanks
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post #9578 of 9818 Old 07-31-2019, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by oldenears View Post
I have owned my avm60 for over a year and I am very pleased with the sound using arc2. I want to try Genesis but i am concerned about some folks saying that they heard clipping after running Genesis with the +10dB additional gain over arc2. If this is the case, why hasn't anthem changed/fixed this additional gain? Or is that something else?

Thanks
Don't be afraid of running Genesis. The updated version does not seem to have the same reputation and only a couple of people have complained. I did the update and feel it was a worthwhile upgrade.

Anthem AVM60 - ATI 2005 - ATI NC528 - Linkwitz LX521 Mains - Monitor Audio Gold C250 Center - Dynaudio Audience 42 Surround - Dynaudio Audience 52 rears - Velodyne DD-15 - Rythmik Audio F15HP - Oppo BDP-105D - Oppo UDP-203 - Sony PS4 Pro - Xbox One X - Layer3tv - LG OLED65E8PUA - Thorens TD-124 - Lounge Audio Gold phono preamp - PS Audio Premier power
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post #9579 of 9818 Old 08-01-2019, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldenears View Post
I have owned my avm60 for over a year and I am very pleased with the sound using arc2. I want to try Genesis but i am concerned about some folks saying that they heard clipping after running Genesis with the +10dB additional gain over arc2. If this is the case, why hasn't anthem changed/fixed this additional gain? Or is that something else?

Thanks
I thought that the whole clipping distortion thing was only reported by a few people with Anthem receivers rather than the AVM 60 pre/pro. In any case, if you are worried about it, just subtract 10 dB.

I too have been very impressed with ARC Genesis. Yes my levels are up by a few dB relative to the old ARC but that is not a problem. Genesis gives a whole new level of customizability to Anthem Room Correction, or just let it do its thing. It is nice to have that choice.

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post #9580 of 9818 Old 08-01-2019, 11:21 AM
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Genesis has been getting so many good reviews I am super tempted to yank my Lexicon mc-10 out and pop the anthem back in and try it out! Too bad I did a full factory reset before I pulled it or a quick update would be all it would take to get it going :/ That is my only real hesitation is starting from scratch would take a while...

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post #9581 of 9818 Old 08-01-2019, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by shs1234 View Post
I thought that the whole clipping distortion thing was only reported by a few people with Anthem receivers rather than the AVM 60 pre/pro. In any case, if you are worried about it, just subtract 10 dB.

I too have been very impressed with ARC Genesis. Yes my levels are up by a few dB relative to the old ARC but that is not a problem. Genesis gives a whole new level of customizability to Anthem Room Correction, or just let it do its thing. It is nice to have that choice.
I experienced clipping with my AVM 60. I re-ran Genesis with a later beta-build and also decreased the levels using a SPL meter and have not experienced it since then.
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post #9582 of 9818 Old 08-02-2019, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by oldenears View Post
I have owned my avm60 for over a year and I am very pleased with the sound using arc2. I want to try Genesis but i am concerned about some folks saying that they heard clipping after running Genesis with the +10dB additional gain over arc2. If this is the case, why hasn't anthem changed/fixed this additional gain? Or is that something else?
It is something else. It has nothing to do with the +10 or any other gain settings.

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Originally Posted by shs1234 View Post
I thought that the whole clipping distortion thing was only reported by a few people with Anthem receivers rather than the AVM 60 pre/pro. In any case, if you are worried about it, just subtract 10 dB.
The gain trims are just offsets to the master volume control -- two ways to adjust the same electronic volume stage. When ARC causes clipping, it happens in the digital domain prior to the DAC and trim/volume controls.

Quote:
I too have been very impressed with ARC Genesis. Yes my levels are up by a few dB relative to the old ARC but that is not a problem. Genesis gives a whole new level of customizability to Anthem Room Correction, or just let it do its thing. It is nice to have that choice.
Agreed!
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post #9583 of 9818 Old 08-04-2019, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by oldenears View Post
I have owned my avm60 for over a year and I am very pleased with the sound using arc2. I want to try Genesis but i am concerned about some folks saying that they heard clipping after running Genesis with the +10dB additional gain over arc2. If this is the case, why hasn't anthem changed/fixed this additional gain? Or is that something else?

Thanks
Hi,
I am still using ARC2 and I am very satisfied. Why to run Genesis?

Not even the last update installed and it is fine.
I am going to replace the player and OLED TV (Black Friday) and this will be the momentum for software update - Dolby vision, HDR... And Genesis maybe...
Thanks.
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post #9584 of 9818 Old 08-04-2019, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike RO View Post
Hi,
I am still using ARC2 and I am very satisfied. Why to run Genesis?

Not even the last update installed and it is fine.
I am going to replace the player and OLED TV (Black Friday) and this will be the momentum for software update - Dolby vision, HDR... And Genesis maybe...
Thanks.
Myself and other were also very satisfied with ARC2. Then we loaded Genesis and were blown away by how much better the sound is with Genesis. You have nothing to loose by loading and running Genesis. The ARC2 and Genesis software can both reside on the same machine because they are installed in separate directories. If you don't like Genesis just open the ARC2 software on your computer and upload your old ARC2 file and then upload it to the AVM and you're back to ARC2 again.

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post #9585 of 9818 Old 08-04-2019, 09:25 PM
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Myself and other were also very satisfied with ARC2. Then we loaded Genesis and were blown away by how much better the sound is with Genesis. You have nothing to loose by loading and running Genesis. The ARC2 and Genesis software can both reside on the same machine because they are installed in separate directories. If you don't like Genesis just open the ARC2 software on your computer and upload your old ARC2 file and then upload it to the AVM and you're back to ARC2 again.
Hi,
I see. I did not know that is easy to come back.
Now I am leaning to run Genesis.
Thanks.
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post #9586 of 9818 Old 08-19-2019, 01:26 PM
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Is there a way to set some sort of input attenuation on the AVM60? The reason I ask is because with Genesis I still get clipping in the digital stage when the input is near -3dB when using the latest version of the software. The only way I have been able to fix this is to reduce the output level of the sources. For example, on the PC I have to disable bitstreaming and set the output level to -30db. But this also means I no longer get Dolby Atmos because the source program cannot decode it.


Using REW, if I set the output of the signal generator to -20dB then I have no problems when doing a frequency sweep. But if I set the level to -3dB then I get a lot of clipping above 1 kHz. I also get no clipping if I disable ARC in the input setup, or I set the maximum correction frequency below 1 kHz in Genesis. I can easily A/B this by setting Profile 1 to 1kHz max frequency, Profile 2 to 5 kHz, Profile 3 to 10 kHz and Profile 4 to 200 Hz. Profile 1 and 4 play okay but 2 and 3 show distortion. So it is definitely in the room correction stage.



Ideally, in the AVM60 there should be some way to reduce the input level prior to the room correction processing so there is enough dynamic range to handle the -3dB input. Changing the speaker levels does not work because that is done after the room correction stage and it is too late. Or, in Genesis it should look at the maximum correction level needed and then attenuate the input signal to make sure the attenuated input signal + gain never clips. In other words: input signal + attenuation + largest correction gain is always less than 0dB.



Craig
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post #9587 of 9818 Old 08-20-2019, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigNZ View Post
Is there a way to set some sort of input attenuation on the AVM60?
Not internally.

Quote:
Using REW, if I set the output of the signal generator to -20dB then I have no problems when doing a frequency sweep. But if I set the level to -3dB then I get a lot of clipping above 1 kHz.
Yes, this has been noticed by others -- including me at the initial release, but it was fixed (for me) with v079, FWIW. Which version of Genesis are you running? Make sure it is the latest. If not, try it -- you will need to re-run the measurements every time you install a new version -- the old data will not be fixed by the new version.

Quote:
Ideally, in the AVM60 there should be some way to reduce the input level prior to the room correction processing so there is enough dynamic range to handle the -3dB input.
That's exactly what Anthem should have done.

If you are using the latest Genesis, send your ARC report to Anthem. They need to know. Also post it here -- might see something.

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post #9588 of 9818 Old 08-20-2019, 03:55 PM
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I checked the software versions and everything is up to date. I then ran Genesis again to make sure I had the latest data and uploaded to the AVM60. I setup REW to do a log sweep between 50 hz and 2000 hz with a -3dB level at both endpoints. Doing this I find the right main speaker clips between about 250 - 300 Hz. The left main speaker is okay. I have attached the report generated by Genesis to see if you can spot anything obvious.


Craig
Attached Files
File Type: pdf ARC Report Aug 21 2019.pdf (335.2 KB, 18 views)
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post #9589 of 9818 Old 08-20-2019, 03:58 PM
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Forgot to mention, if I turn off ARC correction on the AVM60 then both speakers show now sign of clipping when I run the log sweep. So it is definitely the room correction adjustment that is clipping, the speaker is okay.
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post #9590 of 9818 Old 08-20-2019, 03:59 PM
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Typing error, it should read if I turn off ARC correction on the AVM60 then both speakers show NO sign of clipping when I run the log sweep.
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post #9591 of 9818 Old 08-20-2019, 04:54 PM
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I am running with an old version of REW so I downloaded the latest version and ran the tests again. The left front speaker is okay but the right front speaker clips between 252 and 280 Hz when the signal level is 0 dBFS. With a signal level of -1.00 dBFS the right speaker is okay. REW only measures two channels so I have not tried measuring the other channels. I'll look around for a program I can use to test all of the speakers.
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post #9592 of 9818 Old 08-20-2019, 05:26 PM
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I found a multi channel signal generator for windows and found only the Front Right speaker is showing clipping, all other speakers are okay. And it only clips when the signal level is 0 dBFS, no clipping if signal level is -1.0 dBFS so maybe the Anthem correction logic needs a slight increase in attentuation when removing clipping possibilities.
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post #9593 of 9818 Old 08-20-2019, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigNZ View Post
I checked the software versions and everything is up to date. I then ran Genesis again to make sure I had the latest data and uploaded to the AVM60. I setup REW to do a log sweep between 50 hz and 2000 hz with a -3dB level at both endpoints. Doing this I find the right main speaker clips between about 250 - 300 Hz. The left main speaker is okay. I have attached the report generated by Genesis to see if you can spot anything obvious.


Craig


Hi Craig
Ive noticed your target curve on the PDF is at 90db. Is their a reason for that ? Just curious as always interested to know for any tips in running arc.

Thank you


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post #9594 of 9818 Old 08-20-2019, 06:35 PM
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My system is all Klipsch speakers so 90dB is very easy to attain with low amplifier wattage. I am assuming Genesis has set the target curve level, would be nice though if I could bring it down to 85 or so. I didn't see any way to do that.
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post #9595 of 9818 Old 08-20-2019, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CraigNZ View Post
My system is all Klipsch speakers so 90dB is very easy to attain with low amplifier wattage. I am assuming Genesis has set the target curve level, would be nice though if I could bring it down to 85 or so. I didn't see any way to do that.


I went to have a look and I thought were able to decrease / increase the target curve as well but I cannot seem to find it. If I remember ( could be wrong ) previous arc were able to do that.


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post #9596 of 9818 Old 08-20-2019, 07:27 PM
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The Official Anthem AVM 60 thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post
I went to have a look and I thought were able to decrease / increase the target curve as well but I cannot seem to find it. If I remember ( could be wrong ) previous arc were able to do that.





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It’s there. “Set Speaker Levels”, the third section under Advanced ARC settings. I too have Klipsch (previous generation RPs), and ARC chose 75db without any user intervention.

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post #9597 of 9818 Old 08-20-2019, 07:56 PM
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I looked at that but it only allows a decrease of 3dB. To get to 75 I would need a decrease of 15. My main speakers are modified Klipschorns which measure out at 103 dB for 1 watt. I use a mini-DSP box to throttle them down 12 dB hence the 90 dB level set by ARC.
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post #9598 of 9818 Old 08-20-2019, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigNZ View Post
I looked at that but it only allows a decrease of 3dB. To get to 75 I would need a decrease of 15. My main speakers are modified Klipschorns which measure out at 103 dB for 1 watt. I use a mini-DSP box to throttle them down 12 dB hence the 90 dB level set by ARC.
Gotcha. I had not used the feature so I was unaware that the system wide limit was +/- 3.

And with that, I got nuthin'.
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post #9599 of 9818 Old 08-20-2019, 08:29 PM
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It is interesting that Genesis selected 90 dB for the system wide speaker level and then added 4 dB to the Fronts to achieve that. My understanding is that you want to keep all the signal levels at max in the processing chain until you get to the amplifier which you then attenuate to achieve some volume level. Doing this is supposed to maintain the maximum dynamic range of the system. From the Level Settings the sub is the loudest, followed by the Center and then the Fronts. I guess genesis used the center speaker to set the levels for all the other speakers since it was the loudest (not including the sub). Which means I could decrease the attenuation on the Fronts (on the miniDSP box) from -12 dB to -9 dB making them louder by 3dB. Genesis would then remeasure them and find the loudness of the Fronts and Center to be the same. Genesis would still set the system level at 90 dB but would set the Front levels to +1 dB (like the Center speaker) reducing down from the current +4 dB. But for my problem of clipping it would make no difference since this is all being done to the output side and not the input.
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post #9600 of 9818 Old 08-20-2019, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigNZ View Post
I checked the software versions and everything is up to date. I then ran Genesis again to make sure I had the latest data and uploaded to the AVM60. I setup REW to do a log sweep between 50 hz and 2000 hz with a -3dB level at both endpoints. Doing this I find the right main speaker clips between about 250 - 300 Hz. The left main speaker is okay. I have attached the report generated by Genesis to see if you can spot anything obvious.
Hi Craig,

Nothing odd really. If you are only getting clipping at -1 dBFS, consider that a win. I was getting clipping at something like -6 dBFS, and now it's much better, but not at 0 dBFS across the board.

As for the 90 dB thing, I see a 10 dB difference in the raw SPL of the L/R vs. the sub. Try reducing the gain of the subwoofer 10 dB, then run again and see if that maybe lets ARC use 85 instead of 90. Right now, in order to hit 85, the sub gain would have to reduce from -7 to -12, the min trim limit, which it may not want to do. But in any case, it will not change the sound quality, so not really necessary to do this.

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