*Official* Marantz 2015 NR-1506/1606, SR-5010/6010/7010 & AV7702mkII owner's thread - Page 175 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5221 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Think of circle and you the listener is sitting in the middle of that circle, i.e. Main Listening Position (MLP). Each speaker is placed along the circumference of the circle to reproduce surround sound in the movie soundtrack. This is known as being surround with sound and is quite realistic when watching a movie.

Try this simple test, with an Atmos/DTS:X soundtrack, send it as bit-stream to the AVR. When pressing the info button, the AVR should light up either as Atmos/DTS:X. Now send the same soundtrack as LPCM, when the info button is pressed, the Atmos/DTS:X wont light up and you'll just get 'Multi-channel in' signal.
Thanks, your first paragraph was a real eye opener. I never realized (but it makes perfect sense) that the whole idea of immersive sound is being able to experience it in 360 degrees not just front or rear or each corner which I always just assumed was the case.

And yes, I knew when sourcing PCM it would often come up as "multi-channel" but didnt quite understand why, now I know! Thanks.
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post #5222 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by gbrandon View Post
Thanks, I get it now, but I wonder how many other people think like I do and assume that when you have only 1 pair of surround speakers you would configure them as "Surround Back" if they were located behind you and "Surround" if they sat to the left and right of you instead of the AVR mfg referring to "Surround Back" only if you have more than one set of surround speakers.
Actually .... many have thought this as well until corrected.
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post #5223 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 10:33 AM
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Actually .... many have thought this as well until corrected.
So I take it this means the side surrounds are considered the "primary" rear channel in a 7.1 setup?

Considering the DSU or Neural:x is always upmixing 6 channel content into the backs, do you think there is any benefit to having better quality side surrounds than what is used for the backs? I'm asking because I'm considering spending a bit more money to upgrade the side surrounds so they better match our mains.

Video: JVC RS540 w/Anamorphic Lens & 122" 2.35:1 CIH
Audio: Marantz SR7010 / XPA-3 / UPA-7 Sources: Nvidia Shield / Xbox One X
7. Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2 EX (L R C), Ascend Acoustics HTM-200SE (side & rear)
2. Subs: SVS PC-2000 & eD A3-300 12" / Sensory: Aura Pro Bass Shakers
4 HTM-200SE for Atmos/DTS:X Theater Pics / Desktop
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post #5224 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by TKNice View Post
So I take it this means the side surrounds are considered the "primary" rear channel in a 7.1 setup?

Considering the DSU or Neural:x is always upmixing 6 channel content into the backs, do you think there is any benefit to having better quality side surrounds than what is used for the backs? I'm asking because I'm considering spending a bit more money to upgrade the side surrounds so they better match our mains.
Seeing as how you really do want as closely matched speakers all around as possible for immersive surround, I would get two pairs of Sierra 2's (one set at a time, if you must) to match with the fronts. Too bad Ascend doesn't have mountable speakers for overhead use. Maybe GoldenEar's could be closer for the overheads since they also use a folded ribbon tweeter.
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post #5225 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 11:56 AM
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Seeing as how you really do want as closely matched speakers all around as possible for immersive surround, I would get two pairs of Sierra 2's (one set at a time, if you must) to match with the fronts.
Thanks Dan. Yeah, I've thought a lot about that and I've got my eye on the Sierra Satellites (currently in development) which are front ported and perfect for mounting in-wall as side surrounds. I guess I should just pony up the dough to have the same speakers for backs, but at the expected $1100 a pair, I'm having trouble justifying them for surround duty. Would love to get all the "floor" speakers on RAALs though.

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Too bad Ascend doesn't have mountable speakers for overhead use. Maybe GoldenEar's could be closer for the overheads since they also use a folded ribbon tweeter.
I actually did flush mount the Ascend HTM-200 speakers in-ceiling for top front/rears. They are very neutral and are a decent match with the Sierras--albeit not perfect.

Sorry to side track this thread but I really appreciate the info!





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7. Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2 EX (L R C), Ascend Acoustics HTM-200SE (side & rear)
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post #5226 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by TKNice View Post
So I take it this means the side surrounds are considered the "primary" rear channel in a 7.1 setup?

Considering the DSU or Neural:x is always upmixing 6 channel content into the backs, do you think there is any benefit to having better quality side surrounds than what is used for the backs? I'm asking because I'm considering spending a bit more money to upgrade the side surrounds so they better match our mains.
I'm set up 5.1 with the 5010, and even though my surrounds are on the back wall I selected them as Surround and not Surround Back. Is this right?
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post #5227 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 11:57 AM
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I just got a new 7700mk ii and two Outlaw Amps (7700 and 5000). I am getting a very loud hum/buzz noise from my rear height speakers when I plug in the RCA cables to the rear height outlets (both). I can move the same cables to the front height outputs and there is no noise. I have dealt with ground loop issues before and have tried all those common trouble shooting tasks (at least all the ones I know of) and again, this is a very loud hum/buzz, not the typical hum I am used to with a ground loop issue where its not as noticeable.

I have had everything unplugged except for the two rca cables connected to the rear height outputs which were plugged into the 5000 amp, I even tried plugging them into my 7700, same issue. I know its not the cables or the speakers, and doesn't seem to be the amp either, only thing would be the processor, could the rear height RCA outputs be defective? Any thoughts or ideas?

As a mitigation I have to run my rear surrounds though the RCA outs on the Marantz and run them into my outlaw 5000, then the rear heights are now going out the XLR outputs to the outlaw 7700. Not ideal though as the rear surrounds I want powered by the 7700 amp.

Last edited by KanosWRX; 06-16-2016 at 12:00 PM.
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post #5228 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by aerobat View Post
I'm set up 5.1 with the 5010, and even though my surrounds are on the back wall I selected them as Surround and not Surround Back. Is this right?
Yes. They are still considered side surrounds, not rear surrounds.
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post #5229 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 12:04 PM
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I'm set up 5.1 with the 5010, and even though my surrounds are on the back wall I selected them as Surround and not Surround Back. Is this right?
Yes, that sounds right.

Video: JVC RS540 w/Anamorphic Lens & 122" 2.35:1 CIH
Audio: Marantz SR7010 / XPA-3 / UPA-7 Sources: Nvidia Shield / Xbox One X
7. Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2 EX (L R C), Ascend Acoustics HTM-200SE (side & rear)
2. Subs: SVS PC-2000 & eD A3-300 12" / Sensory: Aura Pro Bass Shakers
4 HTM-200SE for Atmos/DTS:X Theater Pics / Desktop
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post #5230 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 12:14 PM
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I'm set up 5.1 with the 5010, and even though my surrounds are on the back wall I selected them as Surround and not Surround Back. Is this right?
Correct. That is your only option with a 5.1 setup.
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post #5231 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Yes. They are still considered side surrounds, not rear surrounds.
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Originally Posted by TKNice View Post
Yes, that sounds right.
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Correct. That is your only option with a 5.1 setup.
Thanks!Good to know.
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post #5232 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by TKNice View Post
Thanks Dan. Yeah, I've thought a lot about that and I've got my eye on the Sierra Satellites (currently in development) which are front ported and perfect for mounting in-wall as side surrounds. I guess I should just pony up the dough to have the same speakers for backs, but at the expected $1100 a pair, I'm having trouble justifying them for surround duty. Would love to get all the "floor" speakers on RAALs though.


I actually did flush mount the Ascend HTM-200 speakers in-ceiling for top front/rears. They are very neutral and are a decent match with the Sierras--albeit not perfect.

Sorry to side track this thread but I really appreciate the info!

Spoiler!


Spoiler!


Spoiler!
Really classy theater! It would be nice if Ascend had Sierra 2 towers to use behind the screen.
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post #5233 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KanosWRX View Post
I just got a new 7700mk ii and two Outlaw Amps (7700 and 5000). I am getting a very loud hum/buzz noise from my rear height speakers when I plug in the RCA cables to the rear height outlets (both). I can move the same cables to the front height outputs and there is no noise. I have dealt with ground loop issues before and have tried all those common trouble shooting tasks (at least all the ones I know of) and again, this is a very loud hum/buzz, not the typical hum I am used to with a ground loop issue where its not as noticeable.

I have had everything unplugged except for the two rca cables connected to the rear height outputs which were plugged into the 5000 amp, I even tried plugging them into my 7700, same issue. I know its not the cables or the speakers, and doesn't seem to be the amp either, only thing would be the processor, could the rear height RCA outputs be defective? Any thoughts or ideas?

As a mitigation I have to run my rear surrounds though the RCA outs on the Marantz and run them into my outlaw 5000, then the rear heights are now going out the XLR outputs to the outlaw 7700. Not ideal though as the rear surrounds I want powered by the 7700 amp.
Hi KanosWRX,

What you're experiencing is similar to what Roudan and myself experienced. See post number 1,279 for the work around.

Basically it is a ground loop issue.

Try having all the external amps and the AV-7702mkII on the same circuit. Having a common earth for all units might also help break the ground loop. See if this is possible by connecting the chaises of the pre/pro and external amps with earthing wire.

If that doesn't work, try using the XLR outputs for the Height 2 and connect to the balanced amp, Model 7700.

If you want to use RCA connection, you'll have to break the ground loop by using an isolation transformer such as the one from Bean Jeans cable or a balanced miniDSP 2x4.
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post #5234 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Hi KanosWRX,

What you're experiencing is similar to what Roudan and myself experienced. See post number 1,279 for the work around.

Basically it is a ground loop issue.

Try having all the external amps and the AV-7702mkII on the same circuit. Having a common earth for all units might also help break the ground loop. See if this is possible by connecting the chaises of the pre/pro and external amps with earthing wire.

If that doesn't work, try using the XLR outputs for the Height 2 and connect to the balanced amp, Model 7700.

If you want to use RCA connection, you'll have to break the ground loop by using an isolation transformer such as the one from Bean Jeans cable or a balanced miniDSP 2x4.
With mine, it was the Ethernet cable that caused the ground loop buzz because my router is in a different part of the house on a different ground potential.

Any Ethernet isolation devices out there?

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post #5235 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Hi KanosWRX,

What you're experiencing is similar to what Roudan and myself experienced. See post number 1,279 for the work around.

Basically it is a ground loop issue.

Try having all the external amps and the AV-7702mkII on the same circuit. Having a common earth for all units might also help break the ground loop. See if this is possible by connecting the chaises of the pre/pro and external amps with earthing wire.

If that doesn't work, try using the XLR outputs for the Height 2 and connect to the balanced amp, Model 7700.

If you want to use RCA connection, you'll have to break the ground loop by using an isolation transformer such as the one from Bean Jeans cable or a balanced miniDSP 2x4.
So I've tried putting them all on the same circuit, that didn't help. I will say I have heard ground loops before and it's usuall a hum you can hear maybe 4-6 feet away. This one however is loud! You can hear it clearly and loudly everywhere! It seems like this is a pretty common (my idea of common anyway) issue, from what I was reading it only happened on people's rear height RCA outputs. I wonder if Marantz did something funny with those connections that might make the issue happen more often?

I am getting two XLR to RCA converter pieces tomorrow, will try plugging those into the rear height XLR outputs instead and see if that fixes the issue. From what I read, it sounds like it might fix it. If so I might buy another two sets to run all my other RCA outputs (front heights and two subs) the same way. Kicking myself for not paying the extra 40 bucks on each of my subs for XLR inputs . But at least this way at least everything will be coming out he XLR outputs.
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post #5236 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 09:13 PM
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With mine, it was the Ethernet cable that caused the ground loop buzz because my router is in a different part of the house on a different ground potential.

Any Ethernet isolation devices out there?
Not the Ethernet cable as I had everything unplugged except the two rear height RCA outputs.

Why not just run wifi if it's causing your issue? Also might be the cable companies coax going into your router causing the ground loop. Try disconnecting all the coax inputs coming from outside the house and see if that helps.
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post #5237 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 11:32 PM
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In case anyone else wants to configure the receiver similarly to power a pair of Sennheiser RS140 wireless headphones from Zone 2 on a NR-1606 AVR
Yes, the source player e.g. BluRay needs L&R analog audio out and be connected to one of the 3 analog inputs on the receiver These inputs have to be assigned to receive a signal. The Zone 2 level needs to be set at around 95 but don't adjust the L or R levels. Leave them on 0dB.
It helped me to set up zone 2 with an internet radio station to e the system working then work from there.
I've yet to estbalish how the PRE OUT left and right work but guess the level is set by the receiver main outputs in which case it's going to be the same level as the main speakers.
I have my pre-out L/R Jack's going into an external amplifier. When setting up the amp placement, you're only given a handful of choices, but mine is hooked up using my main L/R and some height channels for an 11.1 configuration, or 7.1.4. I had 2 subs, replaced them both with 1 good sub, but now I have 2 x 12" stubs collecting dust. The new sub was well worth the money though. If I had an option, I wouldn't have even bought thee 2 x 12" subs, but since they were part of a package deal I had no choice but to get them. The pricing was so good, that I could have bought this 7. 2.4 setup, ditched the subs altogether, and still come out ahead.
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I'd go to Direct or Pure mode and it should revert to no processing/bass management applied. But even with music, bass management can be beneficial as almost no mortally priced tower can reproduce low frequencies that well.
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Thanks,
May I ask, what is the global setting to start with for sub integration in stereo? Do I do my experimenting/adjusting within the "stereo" setting of the AVR? (I have a 6010)
Do you engage Audyssey?
There is no LFE channel in stereo, so do I have to use LFE+ Main?
I enjoy tweaking and experimenting, but this oddly confusing.

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post #5238 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 11:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
With mine, it was the Ethernet cable that caused the ground loop buzz because my router is in a different part of the house on a different ground potential.

Any Ethernet isolation devices out there?
Might want to try a managed (store forward capability) Ethernet switch that sits between the router and devices. Look for one with a metal casing that can be earthed at the device end.
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post #5239 of 12302 Old 06-16-2016, 11:43 PM
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Might want to try a managed (store forward capability) Ethernet switch that sits between the router and devices. Look for one with a metal casing that can be earthed at the device end.
Thanks a bunch!

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post #5240 of 12302 Old 06-17-2016, 01:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KanosWRX View Post
So I've tried putting them all on the same circuit, that didn't help. I will say I have heard ground loops before and it's usuall a hum you can hear maybe 4-6 feet away. This one however is loud! You can hear it clearly and loudly everywhere! It seems like this is a pretty common (my idea of common anyway) issue, from what I was reading it only happened on people's rear height RCA outputs. I wonder if Marantz did something funny with those connections that might make the issue happen more often?

I am getting two XLR to RCA converter pieces tomorrow, will try plugging those into the rear height XLR outputs instead and see if that fixes the issue. From what I read, it sounds like it might fix it. If so I might buy another two sets to run all my other RCA outputs (front heights and two subs) the same way. Kicking myself for not paying the extra 40 bucks on each of my subs for XLR inputs . But at least this way at least everything will be coming out he XLR outputs.
Yes, the buzzing is quite loud coming from the Height 2 RCA pre-outs and very noticeable when carrying out the Audyssey auto-calibration run. This is a consistent and repeatable event for both Roudan and myself. Please note that other Marantz owners do not have this issue.

You can try the XLR to RCA converter cable, but it might not remove the ground loop issue as the single ended RCA connection has the same circuit as that of the single ended external amp that it's connected to. If the ground loop is occurring between the external amp and pre/pro, which is the most likely scenario by your description of the problem.

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Hi,
I am trying to optimise the sound from my 7010 and am a bit confused about what seems to be two very similar options and wonder if anyone could clarify the difference, if any.

Audyssey Reference is said to roll off the upper frequencies in order to restore the balance between direct and reflected sounds. Then there is Cinema EQ which is said to soften the upper frequencies to reduce possible harshness and increase clarity.

Are these the same thing, under different names and in different parts of the menu or are they indeed different in their actions and should perhaps be used together ?
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post #5242 of 12302 Old 06-17-2016, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by alexbarbel View Post
Hi,
I am trying to optimise the sound from my 7010 and am a bit confused about what seems to be two very similar options and wonder if anyone could clarify the difference, if any.

Audyssey Reference is said to roll off the upper frequencies in order to restore the balance between direct and reflected sounds. Then there is Cinema EQ which is said to soften the upper frequencies to reduce possible harshness and increase clarity.

Are these the same thing, under different names and in different parts of the menu or are they indeed different in their actions and should perhaps be used together ?
AFAIK similar so Cinema EQ should be left at the factory default OFF setting.
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post #5243 of 12302 Old 06-17-2016, 03:12 AM
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AFAIK similar so Cinema EQ should be left at the factory default OFF setting.
Hi,
Thanks again JD for the input.
At the moment I'm using Audyssey Reference for movies and so will leave Cinema EQ Off.
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post #5244 of 12302 Old 06-17-2016, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Yes, the buzzing is quite loud coming from the Height 2 RCA pre-outs and very noticeable when carrying out the Audyssey auto-calibration run. This is a consistent and repeatable event for both Roudan and myself. Please note that other Marantz owners do not have this issue.

You can try the XLR to RCA converter cable, but it might not remove the ground loop issue as the single ended RCA connection has the same circuit as that of the single ended external amp that it's connected to. If the ground loop is occurring between the external amp and pre/pro, which is the most likely scenario by your description of the problem.
In Roudan's post it sounded like he was able to use the XLR -> RCA cable using the XLR output "Yes, using XLR pre-outs works fine either go to balanced amp or unbalanced amp ( using XLR to RCA cable)." So fingers crossed I will be able to as well.

Did you find a fix for yours?
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post #5245 of 12302 Old 06-17-2016, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KanosWRX View Post
In Roudan's post it sounded like he was able to use the XLR -> RCA cable using the XLR output "Yes, using XLR pre-outs works fine either go to balanced amp or unbalanced amp ( using XLR to RCA cable)." So fingers crossed I will be able to as well.

Did you find a fix for yours?
Yes, there were two fixes that worked for me.

(1) Using the internal amps of the SR-7009 to drive the Height 2 speakers; and
(2) Using a MiniDSP 2x4 to break the ground loop.
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post #5246 of 12302 Old 06-17-2016, 07:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks a bunch!
Dan,

One important point I forgot to mention is that the managed switch having an optical isolation for the port connecting the switch to your router.

This is important, as it will break the ground loop between the inputs and the single port output to the router.

Please check with the vendor prior to purchase and explain to them what you're trying to achieve.
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post #5247 of 12302 Old 06-17-2016, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Yes, there were two fixes that worked for me.

(1) Using the internal amps of the SR-7009 to drive the Height 2 speakers; and
(2) Using a MiniDSP 2x4 to break the ground loop.
Regarding the MiniDSP, do you just put in the two RCA inputs (left and right), then plug in two cables to the outputs.. any configuration needed? Does it affect the sound at all? I know some isolating devices affect certain frequencies, I bought a cheap RCA isolator for a issue I had with a hum from a sub, it reduced the volume by about 35% I would say, had to turn it up some more, but at least it fixed that hum at the time (since then I now plug in my subs to the same outlet as my AVR and don't have issues).

I will say Ground Loops are the biggest pain in the ass! I just had my home theater built last year and to see all these ground loop issues pisses me off.. My house itself is only 4 years old.. issues like this shouldn't exist.
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post #5248 of 12302 Old 06-17-2016, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by KanosWRX View Post
Regarding the MiniDSP, do you just put in the two RCA inputs (left and right), then plug in two cables to the outputs.. any configuration needed? Does it affect the sound at all? I know some isolating devices affect certain frequencies, I bought a cheap RCA isolator for a issue I had with a hum from a sub, it reduced the volume by about 35% I would say, had to turn it up some more, but at least it fixed that hum at the time (since then I now plug in my subs to the same outlet as my AVR and don't have issues).

I will say Ground Loops are the biggest pain in the ass! I just had my home theater built last year and to see all these ground loop issues pisses me off.. My house itself is only 4 years old.. issues like this shouldn't exist.
The Laws of Physics still apply even if the house was just built. The electrician (if they know anything) should be told if you want certain circuits on the same breaker leg to share similar grounding attributes.

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The Laws of Physics still apply even if the house was just built. The electrician (if they know anything) should be told if you want certain circuits on the same breaker leg to share similar grounding attributes.
Obviously I am no electrician.. but you would think they would build houses so that they wouldn't have these issues to begin with. Shouldn't they all be grounded the same way if they are in the same breaker box? Is it that they skimp on materials or don't do things properly? I am guessing their are multiple ways to ground each circuit (even though there is probably only one actual ground going into the actual ground) I would pay to have it done right, but I worry an electrician doesn't know what to do to begin with if they cant do it right from the start. Is there something specifically to ask to have done? If I said I had a ground loop would they even know how to fix it?
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post #5250 of 12302 Old 06-17-2016, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by KanosWRX View Post
Obviously I am no electrician.. but you would think they would build houses so that they wouldn't have these issues to begin with. Shouldn't they all be grounded the same way if they are in the same breaker box? Is it that they skimp on materials or don't do things properly? I am guessing their are multiple ways to ground each circuit (even though there is probably only one actual ground going into the actual ground) I would pay to have it done right, but I worry an electrician doesn't know what to do to begin with if they cant do it right from the start. Is there something specifically to ask to have done? If I said I had a ground loop would they even know how to fix it?
Calling a difference in ground potential a "ground loop" has always seemed strange to me since that's not what it is.

The incoming power to homes in the US is provided as two phases, 180 degrees out of phase with one another. Since they want the load to be comparable on both lines, it seems to be common practice to wire half of the wall sockets in a room to one of the phases and the other half to the other phase. When you plug a device into wall power, the resistance in the wiring of the neutral and ground connections causes there to be some non-zero voltage on them with the same phase as the hot connection. If you plug some of your A/V equipment to one phase and some to the other, you'll get hum.
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