The **Official** Yamaha RX-V779 Thread(2015 HDMI 2.0a HDCP 2.2 Receiver) - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 658 Old 09-19-2015, 04:10 PM
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I'm reading from page 83 of the manual.
"When Zone 2 output is enabled, the surround back speakers in the main zone do not output sound."

It's arguably a decent compromise position, but not a seamless one. It means that one has to remember to disable Zone 2 output when watching a movie in Zone 1, and then remember to re-enable Zone 2 so the rest of the house can tune in to what is playing in Zone 1. But that can be done using the remote (or app on an iOS, Android, or Web interface) so it isn't too bad.

...and if front presence speakers are active (DSP modes) then the surround back speakers are also disabled. Again, I am grateful that - within the limitations - the unit does an intelligent job. When STRAIGHT is selected, the presence speakers are disabled, the surround back speakers are enabled, and the 7.1 signal is played as recorded. When the DSP is in use, the presence speakers are automatically enabled and the surround back disabled.

It was a major surprise when I realized that there are NO tape outputs. Yamaha used to be almost overly-generous with them.

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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
However by my read of the manual, the RCA outs labelled as "Zone 2" stay that way under all circumstances, even when using presence speaker outs, and have an independent volume control compared to the main room. This is what you should use for the FM transmitter. [In many receivers such analog outs don't work from incoming HDMI signals so you need to use parallel runs to each corresponding RCA input for them to work, but I see no mention of that in the Yamaha manual, at least from my quick perusal.]
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post #62 of 658 Old 09-19-2015, 05:28 PM
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Yes, you have to tell the unit when you are going to zone two (and the main room may get a reduced number of channels), but aren't you having to flip on the power switch of the FM transmitter anyways? I also didn't realize you needed simultaneous operation. My mistake.

Quote:
I'm reading from page 83 of the manual.
"When Zone 2 output is enabled, the surround back speakers in the main zone do not output sound."
[emphasis mine]

http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset...asset_id=64778

That page's section is clearly speaking to "Using the unit's internal amplifier" and what happens at the zone 2 speaker outs, but next to it on the right, in the section "Using an external amplifier", makes no mention of such a limitation. I think they are mentioning the unit has run out of power amplifiers in some setups but I suspect the RCA outs for zone 2 are always active.

Try it and let us know, thanks.

P.S> Notice also the pictograph of the main room shows 9.1 speakers in use when using the RCA zone outs, not 7.1 in the amplified version pictograph to the left.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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post #63 of 658 Old 09-19-2015, 08:29 PM
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Firstly -- success and gratitude with FM transmitter.

Let me start by saying thank you. The note that the zone 2 pre-outs may (at least I hope so) be used safely even when presence speakers are connected was the key for me.

So -- IFF this is a safe way to connect things (I don't know if using the "front presence" speakers AND the Zone 2 pre-outs conflicts with the "don't use both the pre-outs and the speaker connections" caution).

But - if this is safe, I'm very pleased.

Zone 2 seems to operate completely independently from Zone 1 in most ways, tied together in a few.


Zone 2 is a level output. "Level Fixed" is displayed when one tinkers with volume controls.
Zone 2 is not affected by DSP selection / STRAIGHT selection.
Zone 2 centers the center channel signal, and both the left and right surround back signals. It puts the left and left surround channels to one side, etc..
Even if the DSP mode is being used by Zone 1 (which kills the surround back channels for Zone 1), Zone 2 does the above, including the surround back channels.


Zone 1 plays all 7.1 channels in "STRAIGHT" mode, and Front-Presence + 5.1 in DSP mode, as usual.

In short, Zone 1 seems completely unaffected by using Zone 2. And Zone 2 has logical functionality.

As far as the User Guide goes, the 779 _never_ does 9.1 sound. Front Presence or Surround Back. Never both at the same time.

But -- it's everything I want. I can leave the transmitter going all the time, don't have to turn it on and off to have full sound in Zone 1. I can send Bluetooth audio to the 779 and get it on FM.

A very happy ending to this story.

Thanks again. I was misunderstanding the information about Zone 2 pre-outs.

[edit] :: yes, by the way, the plan is to just set the transmitter up and have it run all the time. That way I can tune into my station from any room, garage, basement, yard, etc and hear my music.

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post #64 of 658 Old 09-20-2015, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmesunset View Post
I want to connect my 779 to an FM radio transmitter that has RCA line-level inputs. ALL speaker outputs on the 779 are connected to speakers. I am using the 2nd zone as Front Presence with the DSP, not as an independent zone.

I'm now at the point where I need to either

A) purchase a Bluetooth to RCA converter and dedicate the Bluetooth radio to output (sometimes)
B) go against the warning / advice about using pre-outs with speakers.
C) get an HDMI to RCA converter, unless I would be forced to drop the presence speakers to use it.
What device are you sending audio to via the FM radio transmitter?

Remember, your receiver has MusicCast built in, meaning you can transmit any audio from Zone 1 to a MusicCast device OR 3rd party Bluetooth device such as a Bluetooth speaker or Bluetooth headphones. Of course, the standard 10 meter range of a Bluetooth device comes into play, but it could be a simple alternative. While you can't send audio out of the second zone to a Bluetooth device, it's seldom that you'd need to?
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post #65 of 658 Old 09-20-2015, 02:35 PM
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What device are you sending audio to via the FM radio transmitter?
Scoot back a few articles:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmesunset View Post
I want to transmit the LR signal to a pair of ear-protection headphones for mowing the lawn..
And --- I see:

Quote:
Turning on the Bluetooth transmitter is kinda cool as you can send it to bluetooth docks... or bluetooth headphones, handy while mowing the lawn, as an example.
And --- I think:

Gee, if I could mow my whole lawn without leaving bluetooth range, I wouldn't NEED music while I did it. Or a mower with an engine...
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post #66 of 658 Old 09-20-2015, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmesunset View Post
Scoot back a few articles:







And --- I see:







And --- I think:



Gee, if I could mow my whole lawn without leaving bluetooth range, I wouldn't NEED music while I did it. Or a mower with an engine...

Rude a little?
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post #67 of 658 Old 09-29-2015, 06:46 PM
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Picked up an open box 779 from iq home electronics through Amazon, I have some older RBH sx-4t towers as my fronts that are 4ohm. Is anyone using an external amp with this avr?
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post #68 of 658 Old 09-29-2015, 07:32 PM
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Considering the RX-V779 is already the top of the RXV series and has more power than the lesser ones, what it would take to seriously up the wattage to an output figure which you would actually realize as "Yes, I can notice it does indeed play a bit louder now" would necessitate an increase of at least 3 dB and that means instead of 95 watts/ch you would need 190 watts/ch. Such 5ch (or 7ch) amps don't come cheap.

I don't think you should worry about this unless you specifically notice that the peaks are clipping your amplifier so they sound distorted. As for the people who claim that more power isn't just about louder output before the onset of distortion and that even at lower, modest levels the more powerful amps sound "cleaner"," more articulate" etc. that is just a pervasive myth, probably invented to sell more powerful amps to consumers than they really need. Don't fall for it.
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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post #69 of 658 Old 09-29-2015, 08:10 PM
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Thanks zillch, there's an emotiva upa-500 for sale locally and I was wondering if I should make an offer, so many differing opinions on separates etc.. I'll try the avr alone and see how it sounds. I'm coming from an onkyo that had the hdmi problems, the sound was great while it worked.
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post #70 of 658 Old 09-29-2015, 09:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peteybob35 View Post
Picked up an open box 779 from iq home electronics through Amazon, I have some older RBH sx-4t towers as my fronts that are 4ohm. Is anyone using an external amp with this avr?
I use a Rotel 5x100 watt amp with this receiver. My speakers are 4 ohm as well. Works perfectly with the amp.

I tried the receiver with the speakers at first and it really just didn't provide the depth I was looking for. I didn't take any measurements to verify if it was just placebo effect or not. However, I don't think the receiver is rated for 4 ohm speakers on all channels so I just didn't want to risk it. I had the amp already so it seemed like a no brainer to use it. The receiver alone would probably work just as well as the separates if I had 8 ohm speakers though.

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post #71 of 658 Old 09-29-2015, 09:56 PM
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Peteybob35,
From audioholics, a site I don't usually recommend but they seemed handy:

Emotiva rates the UPA-500 as follows:

•80 watts x 5 continuous @ 8-ohm (0.01% THD)

•120 watts x 5 continuous @ 4-ohm (0.01% THD)

However they measured individual channels by themselves into a higher 1% distortion value, CPF-BW, as:

117 watts 8-ohms 1%
225 watts 4-ohms 1%

From soundandvision having rated an earlier Yamaha receiver of the RX-V7xx series, so I wouldn't be surprised if the amp section is quite similar to the 779:
Here driving 2 channels, not one, which is a harder condition so single channel performance should be expected to be a tad better:

0.1% THD/1.0% THD:
2 Channels Continuously Driven, 8 ohm loads 122.8 watts/ 147.5 watts
2 Channels Continuously Driven, 4 ohm loads 149.7 watts/ 181.9 watts

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...Pgx8iSWrLlH.99

So even if it has no greater capability into just one channel than it does driving two, the third party measurements of the Yamaha RXV7xx series amp into 4 ohms, which as I understand it you believe your speakers to be, puts out 181.9 watts with 1% THD whereas this Emotiva amp puts out 225 watts into 4 ohms, 1% THD. Using this online calculator this means the Emotiva will play 106.8 dB SPL instead of the Yamaha's 105.9


SPL CALCULATOR examples I put in


Speaker Sensitivity: 90 dB SPL (1 W/1 M)
Amplifier Power: 181.9 VS. 225 Watts
Distance: 10 feet
No. of Speakers: 2 usually 2, more for multi-channel
Speaker Placement (Choose 1): Away from walls (or do not consider placement)

RESULTS


dB SPL at listening position : Yamaha 105.9 dB SPL vs.Emotiva 106.8 dB SPL

THAT'S NOT EVEN A FULL dB LOUDER! What does 1 dB mean? Well you can demonstrate this easily to yourself now that modern AVRs like your Yamaha have volume knobs calibrated in dB. Simply listen to some music and then rotate the knob up by 1 dB. THAT'S how much louder the Emotiva can play before the onset of distortion. Hardly worth it if you ask me but what I can confidently say is that I've read zillions of forum posts for decades from people who are dead sure "It plays so much louder and cleaner" yet when you ask the incredibly simple question of "HOW much louder? They are stumped and can't give a number. Why? Because in truth the added benefits are created in their minds, not in their ears.

I worked professionally selling these things for many years, by the way

I've given you all the science you need to make an informed decision, but only you can decide if .9 dB is worth spending money on. Remember, what I wrote in my earlier post, the claims "Oh, but there's more to it than just output power and SPL" are false. Don't be conned like millions of other people are.
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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post #72 of 658 Old 09-30-2015, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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I've given you all the science you need to make an informed decision, but only you can decide if .9 dB is worth spending money on. Remember, what I wrote in my earlier post, the claims "Oh, but there's more to it than just output power and SPL" are false. Don't be conned like millions of other people are.
I completely agree with everything you said. The only reservation I have with using the Yamaha receiver with all of my speakers is that they specifically say in the manual that you can use 4 ohm speakers for the front main channels but all other channels need to be 6 ohm.

Could it damage the receiver or speakers if I turned it up in the 105 db range with Five 4 ohm speakers and Two 6 ohm presence speakers connected directly to the receiver? For the $300 the external amp cost I thought it was worth it knowing that the amp could handle the 4 ohm load on all channels.
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post #73 of 658 Old 09-30-2015, 11:47 AM
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There is no definitive answer to your "How much power do I need?" question. The number of variables is staggering:

- how many feet from your speakers do you sit ?
- how reverberant is your room or are most reflections absorbed and diffused due to massive amounts of plush furniture, drapes, thick rugs, wall hangings, etc.?
- how large is your room?
- are there any openings to other rooms such as doorways or half walls, open windows, etc.?
- how efficient are your speakers?
- is your music/movie material typical where the focus and therefore loudest material is in the front, not the rear, 99 % of the time?
- "4 ohms" is a rather simplistic way to describe the speakers, what is the actual impedance curve per frequency and does it only dip to 4 ohm for a brief, specific frequency or is it actually 4 ohms or even lower for broad ranges of frequencies?
- do you listen to clean acoustical music where distortion is relatively easy to identify by ear or do you listen to specific forms of electronic music where the recording itself has a good amount of distortion dialed in by the musical artist themselves by way of "fuzz peddles" etc. intentionally for effect? Usually people use common sense and if they hear a problem (amp clipping distortion) they back down on the volume knob and all is well, but when the music itself is inherently distorted in the recording itself this "red line" point may not be as easy to sonically distinguish [this is a reason why visual aids such as power level meters or "clip indicators" can be useful and back in the 70's these were quite common, but now for whatever reason they are (to the best of my knowledge) non-existent in AVRs. Some outboard power amps still have them though.]
-how loud do you like your music?

Here's what we do know: If the Emotiva plays louder (once connected) it is not likely to be by much: .9 dB and you have a volume knob right now which will help you picture this in advance before buying it. You really need to search for amps which are doubly strong per channel, which amounts to an increase of 3 dB, not .9 dB, before you can realize a meaningfully useful increase in output power.

When you watch a movie, you notice how 99.99% of the time the sound tracks what you see, hence the front three speakers are almost always louder than the rears? Well what this tells us is that not only is the level sent to the rears is almost always quieter, so is the power needed for those rears. When surround sound first came out it was quite common, even for state of the art, top of the line AVRs to use weaker amps for the rears, often half the power or even less than the front channels. The rationale of why this was done was legit and never in my experience did I ever encounter a user whose complaint was "I notice my system plays as loud as I want for the fronts, however the rears seem to clip and distort at times." NEVER. Then things changed and getting equal power for all channels became the standard but the power needs for the rears vs the fronts never changed, i.e. the way we should think of it is our rear channels now have much more "reserve power" and we pretty much never clip them [unless the fronts are driven to hard, hard clipping and the movie content is some really rare scene where all quadrants of the movie theater are equally loud. SUPER rare.

The main reason why AVR companies like Yamaha warn about using lower 4 ohm speakers is more for legal reasons than it is for practical reasons. If, as an electronics maker you claim "Our amp can drive 4 ohm speakers or even lower on all channels, no problem", then you have to undergo UL and CSA certification for that, without becoming too hot, or you fail to get certification. When you stuff 7 channels of amps, plus a tuner, preamp, video circuits, switching, and processor into a small receiver box you can overheat pretty easily with 4 ohm loads unless properly ventilated. Power amps are often in the same size box yet lack all these extra circuits so they have room to breath and don't overheat as easily so they can pass UL/CSA heat testing much more easily, and considering how much money they charge per watt they can even afford to include a cooling fan, if need be, which receivers try their best not to, due to the added expense.

My advice is use the Yamaha alone and ONLY if you hear a problem should you consider throwing extra money at the problem, or if its well designed thermal protection circuits get tripped (which shuts down the entire the receiver). If neither of these things happen, then I think you have nothing to worry about.
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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post #74 of 658 Old 09-30-2015, 05:51 PM
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I have a 5.1 set speakers. What it's the best to connect them for movies, on Front Surround (SL/SR) or on Presence speakers (FPL/FPR)?
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post #75 of 658 Old 10-01-2015, 09:49 PM
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I have a 5.1 set speakers. What it's the best to connect them for movies, on Front Surround (SL/SR) or on Presence speakers (FPL/FPR)?
I would use them as conventional 5.1. That way you'll be able to hear the minimum 5 channels properly as the filmmakers intended.

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post #76 of 658 Old 10-04-2015, 06:42 PM
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FYI. Costco has the TSR-7790BL version of this for $490. WAY lower than anyone else I could find.
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post #77 of 658 Old 10-05-2015, 06:16 AM - Thread Starter
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FYI. Costco has the TSR-7790BL version of this for $490. WAY lower than anyone else I could find.
Wow that is an AMAZING deal. The only thing I could not find in the specs was whether this one has pre-outs or not. For that price I can't imagine it does. That would be unheard of to get a receiver like this with all of these features including pre-outs for less than $500 near to when it was first released.

http://www.costco.com/Yamaha-TRS-779...100218925.html

Update: That must be a mistake on that price. This receiver does infact have pre-outs and is a clone of the 779. Buy this receiver before the price goes back up to closer to its MSRP.

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio...product_lineup
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post #78 of 658 Old 10-05-2015, 11:21 AM
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My quick examination of their site yesterday showed they carried the 779 for the same price as the 7790. Even though they are the same, one might as well go for the 779 if only because more people on the forums will understand which unit you own. [Arguably it might have better resale value because it is better known too.]

edit to add: Just checked again. I may be mistaken and might have seen the earlier 775 unit not the more recent 779. Oops, sorry, my bad.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #79 of 658 Old 10-05-2015, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
My quick examination of their site yesterday showed they carried the 779 for the same price as the 7790. Even though they are the same, one might as well go for the 779 if only because more people on the forums will understand which unit you own. [Arguably it might have better resale value because it is better known too.]

edit to add: Just checked again. I may be mistaken and might have seen the earlier 775 unit not the more recent 779. Oops, sorry, my bad.
Hi I am new to Yamaha . Just started setting up my Costco bought V 579 - now considering swapping it for the V 779 for $100 more mainly for the Dialogue Lift feature I have read about. I was unable to find this feature so far while setting up my V 579.

I have set up a 5.1 HT system (mostly for movies) but have surround speakers and an extra Sub I can attach.
I have been getting by with bumping up the level of the Center speaker (LCR are new Ascend 340SEs and a new 12 inch Klipsch Sub) because I really want crisp clear dialogue, but so far my tinkering has not produced that although over all the setup does not lack for power

Much obliged for comments regarding choice of Yamaha AVR model and optimization from experienced users of these great AVRs.
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post #80 of 658 Old 10-05-2015, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi I am new to Yamaha . Just started setting up my Costco bought V 579 - now considering swapping it for the V 779 for $100 more mainly for the Dialogue Lift feature I have read about. I was unable to find this feature so far while setting up my V 579.

I have set up a 5.1 HT system (mostly for movies) but have surround speakers and an extra Sub I can attach.
I have been getting by with bumping up the level of the Center speaker (LCR are new Ascend 340SEs and a new 12 inch Klipsch Sub) because I really want crisp clear dialogue, but so far my tinkering has not produced that although over all the setup does not lack for power

Much obliged for comments regarding choice of Yamaha AVR model and optimization from experienced users of these great AVRs.
I had the V579 from Costco before I got the V779. It isn’t even remotely close. Take the V579 back and buy the 7790BL. HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0a alone are worth it.
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post #81 of 658 Old 10-05-2015, 12:22 PM
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I had the V579 from Costco before I got the V779. It isn’t even remotely close. Take the V579 back and buy the 7790BL. HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0a alone are worth it.
Yes I am pretty much sold on it for the future proofing aspect of the extra features. However am I correct that the V779 has the Dialogue Lift Feature and the V579 lacks this feature?

Also I will really appreciate a quick shortcut Method for running YPAO and making minor adjustments for optimizing movie audio.
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post #82 of 658 Old 10-05-2015, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by SeanBWI View Post
Hi I am new to Yamaha . Just started setting up my Costco bought V 579 - now considering swapping it for the V 779 for $100 more mainly for the Dialogue Lift feature I have read about. I was unable to find this feature so far while setting up my V 579.

I have set up a 5.1 HT system (mostly for movies) but have surround speakers and an extra Sub I can attach.
I have been getting by with bumping up the level of the Center speaker (LCR are new Ascend 340SEs and a new 12 inch Klipsch Sub) because I really want crisp clear dialogue, but so far my tinkering has not produced that although over all the setup does not lack for power

Much obliged for comments regarding choice of Yamaha AVR model and optimization from experienced users of these great AVRs.
First off "dialogue lift" is a misnomer. It takes ALL center channel info, not just the dialogue, and adds some of it to the front presence speakers, perceptually raising the height of where the center sound comes from, ostensibly useful when your center channel tweeter is mounted lower than the flanking L and R tweeters. As far as I know if you connect to only a 5.1 speaker setup it will be sending extra info to speakers you don't have connected. I also question whether it might do what it claims, but at the expense of no longer maintaining precise sonic localization across the soundstage, known to most as "imaging", since the center level is louder than it should be and is also no longer coming from just one distinct, precise location, but instead three.

Generally it is considered a no-no to reproduce a front channel of sound from more than one speaker location with the exception of sounds which are supposed to be diffuse and coming from indistinct locations such as the rear surround signal which often provides "atmosphere". At the very least it usually produces comb filtering, although this is not always audibly objectionable.

If you don't plan on buying a 4K TV within the foreseeable future then HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0a are of no use. I'd suggest saving the hundred dollars and spending it on other things. Even if you do change your mind four years from know you will always be able to send the 4K signal straight to the TV which will likely have numerous inputs.

To read more about if 4K matters for the screen size you use and the seating distance your audience views from, examine the chart provided in this article: http://carltonbale.com/does-4k-resolution-matter/
Many people are surprised to discover that being able to see the added detail forces them to sit at distances they deem unrealistically close, hence there's no point in getting 4K for them. [For example, people with 55 inch 4K TVs would need to sit 3.5 feet away, or closer.] True 4K content is of course also very limited at the moment, but who knows what things will be like 4 years from now? [By then you might need HDCP 3.4 and HDMI 3.2e, and that Yamaha recvr. you bought way, way back in 2015 won't cut it, so you'll need to upgrade! Haha.]
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
First off "dialogue lift" is a misnomer. It takes ALL center channel info, not just the dialogue, and adds some of it to the front presence speakers, perceptually raising the height of where the center sound comes from, ostensibly useful when your center channel tweeter is mounted lower than the flanking L and R tweeters. As far as I know if you connect to only a 5.1 speaker setup it will be sending extra info to speakers you don't have connected. I also question whether it might do what it claims, but at the expense of no longer maintaining precise sonic localization across the soundstage, known to most as "imaging", since the center level is louder than it should be and is also no longer coming from just one distinct, precise location, but instead three.

Generally it is considered a no-no to reproduce a front channel of sound from more than one speaker location with the exception of sounds which are supposed to be diffuse and coming from indistinct locations such as the rear surround signal which often provides "atmosphere". At the very least it usually produces comb filtering, although this is not always audibly objectionable.

If you don't plan on buying a 4K TV within the foreseeable future then HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0a are of no use. I'd suggest saving the hundred dollars and spending it on other things. Even if you do change your mind four years from know you will always be able to send the 4K signal straight to the TV which will likely have numerous inputs.

To read more about if 4K matters for the screen size you use and the seating distance your audience views from, examine the chart provided in this article: http://carltonbale.com/does-4k-resolution-matter/
Many people are surprised to discover that being able to see the added detail forces them to sit at distances they deem unrealistically close, hence there's no point in getting 4K for them. [For example, people with 55 inch 4K TVs would need to sit 3.5 feet away, or closer.] True 4K content is of course also very limited at the moment, but who knows what things will be like 4 years from now? [By then you might need HDCP 3.4 and HDMI 3.2e, and that Yamaha recvr. you bought way, way back in 2015 won't cut it, so you'll need to upgrade! Haha.]
What was said above is technically accurate. However, I am actually a huge fan of the dialog lift feature if you have presence speakers in a 7.1 arrangement. That is what I use and I love the fact that the Yamaha receivers can lift the center channel data up into the middle of the screen.

I have an 80” LCD so it is impossible to get the center channel anywhere near the center of the screen. The dialog lift feature eliminates that issue completely for me. However, it can cause some echoing with certain poorly produced TV shows and commercials. Using the “Standard” setting with a few tweaks can remedy that though.

This is just my opinion. However, the color benefits and added bit depth of 4K and eventually HDR content will make HDCP 2.2 worth it in the end.

I really think buying ANY receiver that does not have HDCP 2.2 right now is foolish. We really don’t know what is going to happen with UHD Blu-ray when it comes out. For $100 you guarantee that your receiver can support whatever they throw at you. That is a no brainer in my opinion.
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I actually think it is foolish to spend $100 on a feature you don't need. It's not like when/if he buys a 4K TV and a 4K source he can't connect them straight to each other. I'm not even sure if the Yamaha's can provide on screen overlaid graphics on top of 4K content so basically all they do is provide switching, for people with, um, multiple 4K sources.

According to CNET early adopters of 4K TVs are now screwed because the @#$^& Hollywood greed industry is not offering backwards compatibility, so those early 4K TVs can't play the new content. There's nothing to keep this exact same problem from happening yet again when he actually wants a 4K TV when the standard switches to yet another, yet to be determined HDMI/HDCP protocol for copy protection:

"Thought all you needed to get a 4K TV working is HDMI 2.0? Guess again. The next generation of content protection is called HDCP 2.2, and not only is it not backwards compatible, many new 4K devices don't even support it.

So it's possible that the 4K TV you bought last year, or even the receiver you buy this year, might not be able to receive/pass all future 4K content.

Sound crazy? Sadly, it's not."

Quote:
For $100 you guarantee that your receiver can support whatever they throw at you.
Nope, you aren't guaranteed. HDCP 2.3 could make what you have now worthless. They've done it before; they'll do it again.
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I actually think it is foolish to spend $100 on a feature you don't need. It's not like when/if he buys a 4K TV and a 4K source he can't connect them straight to each other. I'm not even sure if the Yamaha's can provide on screen overlaid graphics on top of 4K content so basically all they do is provide switching, for people with, um, multiple 4K sources.

According to CNET early adopters of 4K TVs are now screwed because the @#$^& Hollywood greed industry is not offering backwards compatibility, so those early 4K TVs can't play the new content. There's nothing to keep this exact same problem from happening yet again when he actually wants a 4K TV when the standard switches to yet another, yet to be determined HDMI/HDCP protocol for copy protection:

"Thought all you needed to get a 4K TV working is HDMI 2.0? Guess again. The next generation of content protection is called HDCP 2.2, and not only is it not backwards compatible, many new 4K devices don't even support it.

So it's possible that the 4K TV you bought last year, or even the receiver you buy this year, might not be able to receive/pass all future 4K content.

Sound crazy? Sadly, it's not."

Nope, you aren't guaranteed. HDCP 2.3 could make what you have now worthless. They've done it before; they'll do it again.
I fully admit that there could be an HDCP 2.3 eventually. However, I don’t believe that will happen anytime soon. I think we will go at least 5 years before we see another HDCP version. They will lose all adoption for UHD and HDR if they change specs again so soon. It is having a hard enough time just getting started. Anymore stumbling blocks and it will go the way of 3D.

The HDMI 2.0a spec covers 4K @ 60 FPS video with REC.2020 colorspace. We are years if not a decade away from when a consumer TV can deliver the entire 4K @ 60 FPS video with REC.2020 colorspace. I still stand by my statement that if your receiver can handle HDMI 2.0a and HDCP 2.2 you are as future proof as you need to be.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
First off "dialogue lift" is a misnomer. It takes ALL center channel info, not just the dialogue, and adds some of it to the front presence speakers, perceptually raising the height of where the center sound comes from, ostensibly useful when your center channel tweeter is mounted lower than the flanking L and R tweeters. As far as I know if you connect to only a 5.1 speaker setup it will be sending extra info to speakers you don't have connected. I also question whether it might do what it claims, but at the expense of no longer maintaining precise sonic localization across the soundstage, known to most as "imaging", since the center level is louder than it should be and is also no longer coming from just one distinct, precise location, but instead three.

Generally it is considered a no-no to reproduce a front channel of sound from more than one speaker location with the exception of sounds which are supposed to be diffuse and coming from indistinct locations such as the rear surround signal which often provides "atmosphere". At the very least it usually produces comb filtering, although this is not always audibly objectionable.

If you don't plan on buying a 4K TV within the foreseeable future then HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0a are of no use. I'd suggest saving the hundred dollars and spending it on other things. Even if you do change your mind four years from know you will always be able to send the 4K signal straight to the TV which will likely have numerous inputs.

To read more about if 4K matters for the screen size you use and the seating distance your audience views from, examine the chart provided in this article: http://carltonbale.com/does-4k-resolution-matter/
Many people are surprised to discover that being able to see the added detail forces them to sit at distances they deem unrealistically close, hence there's no point in getting 4K for them. [For example, people with 55 inch 4K TVs would need to sit 3.5 feet away, or closer.] True 4K content is of course also very limited at the moment, but who knows what things will be like 4 years from now? [By then you might need HDCP 3.4 and HDMI 3.2e, and that Yamaha recvr. you bought way, way back in 2015 won't cut it, so you'll need to upgrade! Haha.]
Thank you for taking the time to post a detailed and informative analysis. I confess my knowledge in these matters is sketchy at best.

I am replacing a Onkyo TSR 701 receiver (circa 2004) which recently died on me.

For me the Yamaha V579 is already a cool enough upgrade with YPAO, Dual Subwoofer support, wireless BT and many more features, however for me the core issue remains whether the dialogue lift feature will increase my movie viewing experience. My Center speaker is placed below the TV with Main LR lined up with the TV. So with LR presence speakers installed above my TV in a 7.1 pattern there should be an improvement. At any rate its seems worth a shot (since presence speakers & tall stands are already standing by).

Additionally I have just seen from this thread above that there is also a multi point YPAO feature in the V779. Logically, that will result in a wide sweet spot I assume.

I am not buying a 4K TV anytime soon - but planning to soon upgrade to a relatively affordable Flat 70 inch 1080 HDTV for my HT.

Having dropped $390 on the V579 an additional $100 to swap it for the V779 does not seem a big deal simply for the improved Dialogue and YPAO enhancements.

Comments / optimization pointers and method will be much appreciated.

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Yes, you seem to have several good points about what the extra $100 will get you and since you have the extra needed speakers and tall stands already I'd say go for it.

You are "dialogue lift ready". Note this feature adds vertical height but changes in level and tonality are still up to you and may ultimately be more important than your perception of just "height", if dialog clarity is your actual gripe.
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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I am not buying a 4K TV anytime soon - but planning to soon upgrade to a relatively affordable Flat 70 inch 1080 HDTV for my HT.
4K is for chumps , 8K just arrived and will be affordable sooner than you think. This is when the magic happens.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Yes, you seem to have several good points about what the extra $100 will get you and since you have the extra needed speakers and tall stands already I'd say go for it.

You are "dialogue lift ready". Note this feature adds vertical height but changes in level and tonality are still up to you and may ultimately be more important than your perception of just "height", if dialog clarity is your actual gripe.
Well the downside is negligible : I will have to pack up the V579 and exchange it and then get the new V779 working.

Kinda looking forward to playing around with the YPAO measurement and tweaking process . To this end I have seen useful how to guides for Audessy on this forum. I am new here and so far I have not seen any similar "how to" advice for YPAO.

Perhaps someone could post something from their own experience or point me to an existing guide to the process especially the post auto measurement tweaking. I have already run YPAO with my V579 a couple of times on a trial & error basis. Still hazy on what tweaks work best.

After YPAO, and adding the Dialogue Lift I am hoping there will be perceptible improvement in dialogue clarity and crispness without having to turn up the volume especially at night.
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Audiophiles just love complexity and bragging about how much effort they went to in perfecting their setup which "makes a night and day difference" they claim. Pressing a singular "auto calibrate everything" button is never enough for them so they invent these elaborate extra procedures and come up with all sorts of folklore, mythology, and "group think" to make things way more difficult than they need to.

Place the mic at roughly ear level, say duct taped to the end of a broom or mop handle? NO WAY they'll scream. "You need to buy a camera tripod or better yet a professional mic stand with a boom arm and aim it straight up by using a precise bubble level." BALONEY. The mic is omnidirectional and even tilting it off to one side by ten degrees or so won't matter, but worrying about little details such as this is exactly what they are all about.

They also seem to universally be oblivious to the fact that if they don't like the results that YPAO or Audyssey gave them it has nothing to do with how accurate the supplied mic's frequency response is, it is because the target curve YPAO/Audyssey was shooting for [never dead flat, contrary to what some believe] is not to their liking or is not appropriate for the spectral balance of the particular music/movies they dig [also not mixed in a listening studio with a dead flat response, BTW.]

Don't listen to what others do. Use the auto mode and then tweak to your own ear if you don't like it, but don't assume YPAO/Audyssey will automatically "get it wrong" as some will have you believe.
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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