Owner's Thread for Anthem 60, 720 and 1120 Receivers - Page 195 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5821 of 10145 Old 07-28-2018, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post
Guys

I'm struggling with the sub integration. I HATE hearing the sub if that makes sense? With my 15 year old Mc MX-119, same speakers, same power amp, Speakers set to large, x-over @80, the sub blended beautifully, never sticking out like an isolated sound like it does now on some content. Even watching live local news, I can hear it pumping in the background. It sounds like wind noise from a Mic if you are familiar with that? I'm attaching my ARC file again for brave souls that trust me
Typically, when a processor has a setting called "large" and you enable it, that speaker runs full range no crossover. Then if you set your sub crossover to 80hz, the sub won't play anything above 80hz. But sounds from 20hz-80hz will play not on the sub, but on the speakers that are set to "large". (Large vs small is just a horrible setting).

On the Anthem it doesn't have that designation. Instead you pick whether or not you want your speakers crossed over or running full range. If your front speakers that use to be "large" are now set to 80hz, then your subwoofer is getting all the sounds from 20hz-80hz from those speakers that those speakers were playing on the MX-119.

A more compatible setting would be to set your front speakers to full range no crossover (this is equivalent to that "Large"). Then set your subwoofer to 80hz. And now see if it sounds more like it use to.
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post #5822 of 10145 Old 07-28-2018, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Typically, when a processor has a setting called "large" and you enable it, that speaker runs full range no crossover. Then if you set your sub crossover to 80hz, the sub won't play anything above 80hz. But sounds from 20hz-80hz will play not on the sub, but on the speakers that are set to "large". (Large vs small is just a horrible setting).

On the Anthem it doesn't have that designation. Instead you pick whether or not you want your speakers crossed over or running full range. If your front speakers that use to be "large" are now set to 80hz, then your subwoofer is getting all the sounds from 20hz-80hz from those speakers that those speakers were playing on the MX-119.

A more compatible setting would be to set your front speakers to full range no crossover (this is equivalent to that "Large"). Then set your subwoofer to 80hz. And now see if it sounds more like it use to.


I will try that for sure. And you are right, it sounds like sub is playing freqs that it never did before and they are strange, like the "mic wind noise" sounds coming out at time during live local news.


Just to be clear, ARC allows full range fronts *and* a sub? I thought someone hear had said that it wouldn't do that.



Thanks, Mark

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post #5823 of 10145 Old 07-28-2018, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Typically, when a processor has a setting called "large" and you enable it, that speaker runs full range no crossover. Then if you set your sub crossover to 80hz, the sub won't play anything above 80hz. But sounds from 20hz-80hz will play not on the sub, but on the speakers that are set to "large". (Large vs small is just a horrible setting).

On the Anthem it doesn't have that designation. Instead you pick whether or not you want your speakers crossed over or running full range. If your front speakers that use to be "large" are now set to 80hz, then your subwoofer is getting all the sounds from 20hz-80hz from those speakers that those speakers were playing on the MX-119.

A more compatible setting would be to set your front speakers to full range no crossover (this is equivalent to that "Large"). Then set your subwoofer to 80hz. And now see if it sounds more like it use to.
Mark,

I just re read this.

"Then if you set your sub crossover to 80hz, the sub won't play anything above 80hz. But sounds from 20hz-80hz will play not on the sub, but on the speakers that are set to "large"

Was that a typo? If not, what sounds is the sub playing in the large/80 setting?

bob
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post #5824 of 10145 Old 07-28-2018, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post
I will try that for sure. And you are right, it sounds like sub is playing freqs that it never did before and they are strange, like the "mic wind noise" sounds coming out at time during live local news.

Just to be clear, ARC allows full range fronts *and* a sub? I thought someone hear had said that it wouldn't do that.
Yes and No; you can set the crossover on any channel to OFF, so you could go say full range on the mains and leave the sub on for the other channels like surrounds, etc. But when you do this then the sub will not be playing any of the low frequencies that would have otherwise been playing on the channel that you have now set to OFF.

That, or I totally don't understand how this thing works......

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post #5825 of 10145 Old 07-28-2018, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post
Mark,

I just re read this.

"Then if you set your sub crossover to 80hz, the sub won't play anything above 80hz. But sounds from 20hz-80hz will play not on the sub, but on the speakers that are set to "large"

Was that a typo? If not, what sounds is the sub playing in the large/80 setting?

bob
When set to large, the lfe sounds play on the sub under 80 and the sounds under 80 from all speakers that are not set to large. Just try my suggestion and compare for yourself. Simply do nothing but set you deontstk full range by turning off crossover on the profile and test.

I don’t like arc. You may find you just don’t like what it did and are welcome to change it. Perhaps you prefer your sub crossed over lower like 60. The lower the crossover the less you can hear the direction of the subs sounds.
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post #5826 of 10145 Old 07-28-2018, 03:53 PM
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Hey Fellas,

I've been considering getting a power amp to add on to my Anthem MRX520. I'm driving ATC bookshelf speakers and although they are rated at 8 Ohms, they are 84dB sensitivity for the front L/R speakers and 87dB for the center channel. Surrounds are smaller 8 Ohm bookshelfs with 91dB sensitivity. I'm crossing over at 80Hz in the receiver to a couple subwoofers.

I think the MRX520 would make a great pre-amp, I just think I nede more power to get an improvement in dynamics and clarity/separation between instruments and such.

I am curious how you guys are finding the MRX receivers performance as pre-amps? And are there settings in the receiver's menu that I need to change to tell it to disable the internal amplifiers and use the pre-outs for the outboard amp?
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post #5827 of 10145 Old 07-28-2018, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
When set to large, the lfe sounds play on the sub under 80 and the sounds under 80 from all speakers that are not set to large. Just try my suggestion and compare for yourself. Simply do nothing but set you deontstk full range by turning off crossover on the profile and test.

I don’t like arc. You may find you just don’t like what it did and are welcome to change it. Perhaps you prefer your sub crossed over lower like 60. The lower the crossover the less you can hear the direction of the subs sounds.

I will "deonstk" meant "Fronts"?

thx

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post #5828 of 10145 Old 07-28-2018, 05:03 PM
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If I turn off ARC on an existing profile and run the internal test tones, will the resulting adjustments be accurate as long as ARC is off?

bob
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post #5829 of 10145 Old 07-28-2018, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by spongebob View Post
If I turn off ARC on an existing profile and run the internal test tones, will the resulting adjustments be accurate as long as ARC is off?
Yes. Turning ARC on/off only affects the equalization filters.

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post #5830 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by XYVYX View Post
So... any luck w/ the Vertex (assuming you received it)?

I've got an Emotiva XMC w/ the new HDMI board... I'm researching replacement options like the AVM60... the XMC doesn't play nice w/ the Vertex and i'm trying to send my video to multiple projectors too. The XMC might get a firmware update and I'm trying to resolve this by cloning EDID tags, but it sounds like the Anthem might be more neutral / less buggy in passing 4k HDR content.

@markmon1 I'm finding that my JVC is trump'd (superceded, not fubar'd ) by my Panasonic projector when I have them both plugged-in to the Vertex and they're powered up at the same time. I can only get a 4k signal from my Oppo if I start w/ the JVC, then turn on the Panny after... and even THAT isn't super consistent.

My home theater is cursed. I can't get the Vertex software to run on my laptop and have tried everything with HD tech support. Planning on trying it on my wife's computer but spent all weekend finishing my cabinets for the living room.
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post #5831 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 06:16 AM
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Is NAD M22 v2 "overkill" for MRX 720 preamp / DAC?
(for front/main channels, of course)

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post #5832 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 07:26 AM
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ARC is great

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
When set to large, the lfe sounds play on the sub under 80 and the sounds under 80 from all speakers that are not set to large. Just try my suggestion and compare for yourself. Simply do nothing but set you deontstk full range by turning off crossover on the profile and test.

I don’t like arc. You may find you just don’t like what it did and are welcome to change it. Perhaps you prefer your sub crossed over lower like 60. The lower the crossover the less you can hear the direction of the subs sounds.
I love ARC. It compensates for different speaker performance, variable distance and room dynamics. It is especially good for dealing with the low end. I managed to get a smooth, seemless low end down to 20Hz.

Unless you have massive towers with drivers as big as you sub's, you want to move all the low end (e.g. below 80Hz) to the sub. It is going to be a much better at reproducing the sound and the other speakers will perform better as their littler woofers will not get over-driven in an attempt to reproduce the sound. I have different cross-overs for my 5.4 speakers as they are different brands/sizes that ARC helped me pick.

LFE is a different story. if you have subwoofers, I am pretty sure all the LFE goes to them and only them. If you don't have subs, then it goes to all speakers. In both cases any sound below the speaker low-end will be thrown away to protect the speaker.

There is no directional information in the sub 80Hz frequency range...the wavelength is too long. So even if the channel has low end, it does not have to come out of that speaker. Multiple subs are a really great thing for getting a flat room response and avoiding peaks and valleys in the listening area, but that is different from directional information.

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post #5833 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Typically, when a processor has a setting called "large" and you enable it, that speaker runs full range no crossover. Then if you set your sub crossover to 80hz, the sub won't play anything above 80hz. But sounds from 20hz-80hz will play not on the sub, but on the speakers that are set to "large". (Large vs small is just a horrible setting).

On the Anthem it doesn't have that designation. Instead you pick whether or not you want your speakers crossed over or running full range. If your front speakers that use to be "large" are now set to 80hz, then your subwoofer is getting all the sounds from 20hz-80hz from those speakers that those speakers were playing on the MX-119.

A more compatible setting would be to set your front speakers to full range no crossover (this is equivalent to that "Large"). Then set your subwoofer to 80hz. And now see if it sounds more like it use to.
This is true if you don't use ARC. If you use ARC, each speaker has its own low-frequency cut-off (high-pass filter) that protects it. ARC will send any low frequency content that is cut out from the base speakers to the sub-woofers. You can manually adjust all these frequencies in the ARC profile if you want.

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post #5834 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audit13 View Post
Been using my mrx520 with an svs pb12-nsd for the past few days. The only change I made from my original arc settings was limiting eq to 5000.

Tried a few movies, including Cabin In the Woods from iTunes and the bass from the subwoofer was loud and deep. The rumbling during certain scenes was incredible, never had it sound like this with my mrx310. It seemed almost over-powering at times but never distorted. Sub limiter did not kick in at all. My room is not too big, about 10' w x 14' l x 7' h. Is the mrx520 better at equalizing the sub?

I'm going to see how it sounds with reduced room gain.
Also check the "room gain" setting. This adds gratuitous bass because people seem to want that. I don't like it, myself

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post #5835 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vodil View Post
Also check the "room gain" setting. This adds gratuitous bass because people seem to want that. I don't like it, myself
Thanks for the suggestion.

I have reduced the room gain but haven't had a lot of time to try it out. My initial impression is that the sound does seem more balanced. I'll have to check out some more music and movies in the coming days.
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post #5836 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 07:51 AM
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you should never directly hear a sub

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Originally Posted by spongebob View Post
Guys

I'm struggling with the sub integration. I HATE hearing the sub if that makes sense? With my 15 year old Mc MX-119, same speakers, same power amp, Speakers set to large, x-over @80, the sub blended beautifully, never sticking out like an isolated sound like it does now on some content. Even watching live local news, I can hear it pumping in the background. It sounds like wind noise from a Mic if you are familiar with that? I'm attaching my ARC file again for brave souls that trust me
A few thoughts:
If it is a huffing kind of noise, that suggests the sub is being over driven or clipped. Gains could be too high somewhere

If it is a rumbling sound, that can be caused by noise on the input line e.g. from crossed wires. I had a bad RCA connection that did this once.

If it is a ported sub, the port could be partially blocked.

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post #5837 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by vodil View Post
A few thoughts:
If it is a huffing kind of noise, that suggests the sub is being over driven or clipped. Gains could be too high somewhere

If it is a rumbling sound, that can be caused by noise on the input line e.g. from crossed wires. I had a bad RCA connection that did this once.

If it is a ported sub, the port could be partially blocked.
It's more like it's playing higher freqs, like wind noise from a microphone. My fronts are set @80 and the sub @ 250, Does that mean the sub is playing from 250 down and the fronts don't play above 80?
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post #5838 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 09:04 AM
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It's more like it's playing higher freqs, like wind noise from a microphone. My fronts are set @80 and the sub @ 250, Does that mean the sub is playing from 250 down and the fronts don't play above 80?
Yes that is what it means. Try changing the 250Hz to 120. That is a more normal setting. Many subs don't respond well above 120Hz.

The only things you might miss are the secret messages that alien Beatles put on the LFE track between 120 and 250Hz.

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post #5839 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by vodil View Post
Yes that is what it means. Try changing the 250Hz to 120. That is a more normal setting. Many subs don't respond well above 120Hz.

The only things you might miss are the secret messages that alien Beatles put on the LFE track between 120 and 250Hz.
So I change that in the target, calculate, and update? I can't do that in the AVR settings?

thx

bob
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post #5840 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 10:37 AM
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So I change that in the target, calculate, and update? I can't do that in the AVR settings?
bob
Yes, all of that can be set in BASS MANAGMENT section of the configuration you are using in the speaker setup.
It should say something like "LPF for LFE" Try setting that to 120Hz
All the other entries are the high-pass filters for the base speakers and should probably be set to 80Hz.
I would not set those lower than 80Hz unless you have big towers designed for low frequency performance...powered subs do a better job down there.
I would not set them higher than 80Hz unless you know (e.g. via ARC) that they don't perform that low. Some little satellite surround speakers may need that to be 100 or 120Hz

The blending suffers if you push speakers too near their frequency limits. That can make the cross-over be harsh.

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post #5841 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 10:50 AM
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@spongebob & @vodil
I thought Equalization cutoff of 250Hz is not the same as “LPF for LFE” which is usually set by ARC to 120Hz

Now I am all confused again...
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post #5842 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 11:27 AM
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@spongebob & @vodil
I thought Equalization cutoff of 250Hz is not the same as “LPF for LFE” which is usually set by ARC to 120Hz

Now I am all confused again...
Yes they are different. The Equalization cutoff in the Target window only applies to LFE.
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post #5843 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 11:37 AM
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Yes they are different. The Equalization cutoff in the Target window only applies to LFE.
You are sort of correct, but its complicated.
Everything ARC does is in the configuration profiles, but can be in different parts.
I fiddle ARC and then let it download to the MRX rather than fiddle anything manually.

For an explanation far better than my understanding check out
https://hometheaterhifi.com/technica...-optimization/

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post #5844 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by vodil View Post
You are sort of correct, but its complicated.
Everything ARC does is in the configuration profiles, but can be in different parts.
I fiddle ARC and then let it download to the MRX rather than fiddle anything manually.

For an explanation far better than my understanding check out
https://hometheaterhifi.com/technica...-optimization/
Yes it is a bit more complicated but the subwoofer in the Target window only applies to the LFE. Below is bit from the link you posted:


"One thing that confuses people is the equalization cutoff of the subwoofer is often 120 Hz when Autodetect is selected. This only applies to the LFE channel. The other equalization cutoffs, above the subwoofer in the target panel, are the value that the subwoofer will start to become active. If one of those channels sends the subwoofer content, it will be just below that channel’s crossover frequency."
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post #5845 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
Yes it is a bit more complicated but the subwoofer in the Target window only applies to the LFE. Below is bit from the link you posted:


"One thing that confuses people is the equalization cutoff of the subwoofer is often 120 Hz when Autodetect is selected. This only applies to the LFE channel. The other equalization cutoffs, above the subwoofer in the target panel, are the value that the subwoofer will start to become active. If one of those channels sends the subwoofer content, it will be just below that channel’s crossover frequency."
So, if I am watching Directv and the signal says DD 3/2, What is being sent to the sub, LFE info or cutoff info. Hope that makes sense.

bob
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post #5846 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by spongebob View Post
So, if I am watching Directv and the signal says DD 3/2, What is being sent to the sub, LFE info or cutoff info. Hope that makes sense.

bob
Both are being sent to the Subwoofer. You will get LFE and you will get bass from the other speakers below their cutoff's. LFE is a totally different part of the Dolby, or DTS mix. LFE is the is the .1 in say 5.1, 7.1 etc...

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post #5847 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
Both are being sent to the Subwoofer. You will get LFE and you will get bass from the other speakers below their cutoff's. LFE is a totally different part of the Dolby, or DTS mix. LFE is the is the .1 in say 5.1, 7.1 etc...
Thank you,

Is Directv's DD 3/2 signal 5.1? I don't know what the "2" is in "3/2". My goal is to have the sub only playing lower freqs than it is now when watching Directv. Sorry for being slow to grasp this I'm still not sure where to set this


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post #5848 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post
Thank you,

Is Directv's DD 3/2 signal 5.1? I don't know what the "2" is in "3/2". My goal is to have the sub only playing lower freqs than it is now when watching Directv. Sorry for being slow to grasp this I'm still not sure where to set this


bob
No problem at all Bob. The 3 means front left, center & front right. The 2 means left surround and right surround. Depending on the content the .1(LFE) may or may not be present in the mix. The Anthem only shows the channels involved in the the mix hence the 3/2. The .1 (LFE) is not a channels like the others because it only carries LFE, it's information included or not included but it's not a traditional channel that's why it's .1

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Last edited by Legairre; 07-30-2018 at 01:06 PM.
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post #5849 of 10145 Old 07-30-2018, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
Yes it is a bit more complicated but the subwoofer in the Target window only applies to the LFE. Below is bit from the link you posted:


"One thing that confuses people is the equalization cutoff of the subwoofer is often 120 Hz when Autodetect is selected. This only applies to the LFE channel. The other equalization cutoffs, above the subwoofer in the target panel, are the value that the subwoofer will start to become active. If one of those channels sends the subwoofer content, it will be just below that channel’s crossover frequency."
Yes, exactly. That is why you want the base channels cut-off frequencies to not be too high (e.g. 80Hz).

What I don't know is if there is a standard that is used for making the LFE channel in the first place. If there is nothing above e.g. 100Hz on the LFE then it really does not matter if the cut-off is 120 or 250.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
No problem at all Bob. The 3 means front left, center & front right. The 2 means left surround and right surround. Depending on the content the .1(LFE) may or may not be present in the mix. The Anthem only shows the channels involved in the the mix hence the 3/2. The .1 (LFE) is not a channels like the others because it only carries LFE, it's information included or not included but it's not a traditional channel that's why it's .1
Thanks,

So if there is no .1 (3/2) in the signal and I don't want the sub to play as high, then lowering the EQ cutoff for the sub from 250 to 120 is where I would hear the difference? And this has to be recalculated and uploaded in ARC, not in the 720 bass management?

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