Owner's Thread for Anthem 60, 720 and 1120 Receivers - Page 248 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7411 of 8066 Old 05-08-2019, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Norris Kasey View Post
Try Qobuz ;-)

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Is there a specific reason for me to try it over, say, Tidal?
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post #7412 of 8066 Old 05-08-2019, 03:36 PM
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You don't have to deal with the MQA decoding. It streams straight flac files. Unfortunately the best I can do over wifi to the mrx720 is 96khz. 192 skips too much

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post #7413 of 8066 Old 05-08-2019, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Dylanthomasfan View Post
I love plenty of things about Anthem, but Play-Fi has to be one of the most frustrating things about them (I find they have miles to go with respect to software features and maybe even firmware quality, but boy is their audio good!). They have no control over Play-Fi, sadly. I find it juvenile design to have to stream via your phone for Tidal, when Spotify, with it's obviously low quality stream, gets directly streamed. The only solution that worked for me is the Sonos solution (obviously no MQA streaming, only CD quality streaming), which seems quite OK for me, though I'd like to really have a solid streaming solution (Bluesound node may work for me, but I really want everything to connect to my other audio solution which is basically everywhere in my home: Sonos).

So, yes, I have tried Play-Fi with Tidal (I have the high quality service) and UPnP (my Plex media server has DLNA enabled and houses some of my hires music). Not happy with it at all. Clunky and unintuitive. I dont have anything nice to say about it. Except that is the only way I can play my hires audio from my DLNA-enabled Plex Media Server. Maybe that's what it is meant to be: not terribly convenient because music listening should be a highly deliberate thing.
I couldn't agree more if we talk about the functionality.
The Android application is awkward, not 100% stable and both 192/24 and 176.4/24 don't work well.

How about the sound quality - in modes which work well (44.1/16, 44.1/24, 88.2/24, 96/24)?
I find it very good. I mostly use foobar2000 UPnP server for local lossless and DSD/SACD ISO collection (more than 4 Tb ).

The sound is better than using optical S/PDIF connection with ASUS Xonar Essence STX or HDMI connection with GTX 1060. I haven't tried coaxial S/PDIF because I need 5m cable between MRX and PC. I've been using foobar2000, JRiver, Album Player, JPlay... both with ASIO and KS.
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post #7414 of 8066 Old 05-08-2019, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
The attached PDF compares a much earlier ARC 2 measurement and the applied EQ for two speakers in my system, Lss and Height1 L, vs the recent Genesis data. I could not do the L/C/R as they are now different speakers.



I'm not 100% sure the 5 mic locations are identical, or even the furniture, but it looks like the older ARC2 measurement has a little bit moew smoothing and hence the applied EQ has a bit less detail. They are not vastly different, though. Would require a much more controlled comparison to really probe the differences.
Thanks Roger.

It looks like the DB level in Genesis is 5-10db lower than ARC2 in your figure... Do you feel the same in actual listening ? Or it's just graph issue.

Also, my understanding is this is a average response on all 5positions instead of MLP, am I right?

The shape looks similar, but EQ is different.


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post #7415 of 8066 Old 05-08-2019, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by edmoney View Post
Actually, this discount isn't as rare you might think. Anthem had this same Trade-up program last year around this time, and if I'm not mistaken, the year before as well (maybe going back even further). I'd be surprised if the same promotion wasn't offered again next year.


Well to me, once a year is pretty rare. Especially for an aging product.


I've decided to pass and wait for Anthem's next offering.
Hopefully Anthem starts to realize that streaming is VERY important to a lot of people. It's getting better all the time and that Play-Fi. is a poor product.
Also, not 100% compatibility of the new ARC on current models is disheartening.


Maybe they'll even make the Amps assignable in the new receivers.
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post #7416 of 8066 Old 05-08-2019, 05:43 PM
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I just discovered a new problem with my new Anthem 1120, with Apple 4K TV and Sony 950G
I can play shows on Netflix that are Atmos enabled. My system is a 5.1.4 system set up for Atmos. Today I checked what Amazon Prime offers and they have a wide selection of 4K but there is no Atmos on any of the shows. I called Amazon Prime and they told me that the Sony is not compatible with Atmos so the 4k and Ultra 4K shows will only show 5.1 audio. My Apple TV is hooked up to the Anthem via HDMI. Shouldn't I be able to get Atmos from Amazon, as I can get it with Netflix? Thanks
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post #7417 of 8066 Old 05-08-2019, 08:40 PM
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Here is my MRX520 results for ARC Genesis with Gallo Ref 3.1 fronts, Strada center, A'Diva surrounds and SVS SB13.

Speaker levels seem to differ a lot from old ARC or i'm doing something totally wrong. Used to have all speaker levels in -3 ... +3 db range to get 75db. Genesis wants to boost the levels up to +12 to archive that (with suggested +3 room gain biggest are +15!!) so something is really different. Found out ARC Mic level is set 88% when connected to USB, but when recording auto adjust to 35%. Doesn't this directly affect how high levels it records?

For my measurements & tweaking i reduced system wide target level -3 and then auto adjusted each speaker to new 72db level. Still they are in +5 to +9 range with room gain set to 0. So something feels really odd here.



I like the new software a lot and enjoy the easy of use tweaking it offers. So glad Anthem released and gave support for x10 and forward receivers. Just wonder the difference in measurements between old arc and genesis.

Anyone else have big differences between them and what danger/minuses in using too high boost +db levels for speakers?

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post #7418 of 8066 Old 05-08-2019, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum7 View Post
Well to me, once a year is pretty rare. Especially for an aging product.


I've decided to pass and wait for Anthem's next offering.
Hopefully Anthem starts to realize that streaming is VERY important to a lot of people. It's getting better all the time and that Play-Fi. is a poor product.
Also, not 100% compatibility of the new ARC on current models is disheartening.


Maybe they'll even make the Amps assignable in the new receivers.

Actually, the point I was trying to make is that it seems like this is a recurring, annual promotion. Sounded like you found this discount tempting but you were also hoping to hold out for a newer model. I'm saying that you could wait to see if a new model comes out and take advantage of the promotion next year or a future year after a new model comes out.
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post #7419 of 8066 Old 05-08-2019, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick_Lai View Post
It looks like the DB level in Genesis is 5-10db lower than ARC2 in your figure... Do you feel the same in actual listening ? Or it's just graph issue.
I added the 10 dB pads after the original ARC2 calibration. The channel levels are always recalibrated regardless, so the spatial balance is not affected.

Quote:
Also, my understanding is this is a average response on all 5 positions instead of MLP, am I right?
The EQ is indeed based on the composite curve calculated by the ARC algorithm.

Quote:
The shape looks similar, but EQ is different.
Yes, one can see some additional detail in the Genesis curve and EQ. As it is rather close, I hope someone will take the time to perform the experiment under more controlled conditions -- but that's tough as the mic positions are not easy to repeat.

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post #7420 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Dylanthomasfan View Post
I can echo @Delija and the others re: ARC + music. Just way better without ARC. For my tastes, i.e. At the very least, folks who listen to a lot of music should try with and without. The good news about the MRX 720 is that you can create several inputs with ARC turned on etc. so you can do an A/B easily.
Dammit Guys! ... I just had a session flicking between ARC on/off.... Yerp, there's certainly some extra 'life' in the mid-range and perhaps even the lower-mid/upper-bass with it off. More lively and dynamic? Bit more texture and harmonics with certain instruments? Sounds bigger?
Wonder why this is? I set max EQ to 500 and 250Hz... but difference remains.

Gonna play some more with this tonight, as other than maxEQ settings, I've kept everything at default so far.

Still using ARC2, not tried Genisis yet... Need to get the house to myself to run the sweeps again.

This sucks!... because before I tried this comparison I was perfectly happy!

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post #7421 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by GeekWave View Post
Dammit Guys! ... I just had a session flicking between ARC on/off.... Yerp, there's certainly some extra 'life' in the mid-range and perhaps even the lower-mid/upper-bass with it off. More lively and dynamic? Bit more texture and harmonics with certain instruments? Sounds bigger?
Wonder why this is? I set max EQ to 500 and 250Hz... but difference remains.

Gonna play some more with this tonight, as other than maxEQ settings, I've kept everything at default so far.

Still using ARC2, not tried Genisis yet... Need to get the house to myself to run the sweeps again.

This sucks!... because before I tried this comparison I was perfectly happy!
Hmmm, had a good mess around tonight with ARC2, and it seems no matter what I try, I just cant get the mids and highs to sound as good as they do when ARC is off... The bass is certainly more layered with ARC, but the rest is comparatively 'dull'.

I'll hopefully get a chance to try Genisis over the next few days, but in the meantime....

...here's a question: Although we can set a maximum EQ frequency... does ARC continue to do anything at all above that frequency? ...does it still do stuff with time-alignment? ...If so, that might explain it. Otherwise I don't understand what on earth is going on... perhaps the improved bass does something psycho-acoustically to the rest? ...I'm confused

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post #7422 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by GeekWave View Post
The bass is certainly more layered with ARC, but the rest is comparatively 'dull'.
If you use subwoofer(s) for Hi-Fi/stereo, the bass could also be fixed - using PEQs on your MiniDSP 2x4.

But, I'm not sure how good are PB2000's for music.

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post #7423 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 05:54 AM
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I couldn't agree more if we talk about the functionality.
The Android application is awkward, not 100% stable and both 192/24 and 176.4/24 don't work well.

How about the sound quality - in modes which work well (44.1/16, 44.1/24, 88.2/24, 96/24)?
I find it very good. I mostly use foobar2000 UPnP server for local lossless and DSD/SACD ISO collection (more than 4 Tb ).

The sound is better than using optical S/PDIF connection with ASUS Xonar Essence STX or HDMI connection with GTX 1060. I haven't tried coaxial S/PDIF because I need 5m cable between MRX and PC. I've been using foobar2000, JRiver, Album Player, JPlay... both with ASIO and KS.
I was able to play both 88.2 and 96/24; I don't have an extensive collection such as yours. I only have about 300GB or so of lossless FLAC (around 450 CDs worth or maybe more); far fewer in hires, but listening to a few hires tracks has been just wonderful. I have not tried 192/24 yet. I am currently trying to rule out a number of factors before I spend money on hires audio. First: is it worth it (for me, i.e.).

I think playing these hires audio will require a dedicated beast, like bluesound node 2i for the DAC bit.
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post #7424 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by GeekWave View Post
Dammit Guys! ... I just had a session flicking between ARC on/off.... Yerp, there's certainly some extra 'life' in the mid-range and perhaps even the lower-mid/upper-bass with it off. More lively and dynamic? Bit more texture and harmonics with certain instruments? Sounds bigger?
Wonder why this is? I set max EQ to 500 and 250Hz... but difference remains.

Gonna play some more with this tonight, as other than maxEQ settings, I've kept everything at default so far.

Still using ARC2, not tried Genisis yet... Need to get the house to myself to run the sweeps again.

This sucks!... because before I tried this comparison I was perfectly happy!
You can't properly compare simply by turning ARC on and off after uploading your ARC solution. That's because the ARC solution uses higher speaker levels which are then attenuated by the room response corrections to get things back to the the intended level. When you turn ARC off, the higher speaker levels are still in the settings, but the room response corrections are no longer being applied.

Thus ARC OFF is a bit louder. And louder sounds better.

At the very least you'd need to lower Main Volume when you switch ARC OFF. The ear is very sensitive to this -- levels need to be matched to less than 1dB for fair comparison.

Alternatively, raise Volume a bit with ARC ON and see if you aren't back to bliss.
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post #7425 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Dylanthomasfan View Post
I was able to play both 88.2 and 96/24; I don't have an extensive collection such as yours. I only have about 300GB or so of lossless FLAC (around 450 CDs worth or maybe more); far fewer in hires, but listening to a few hires tracks has been just wonderful. I have not tried 192/24 yet. I am currently trying to rule out a number of factors before I spend money on hires audio. First: is it worth it (for me, i.e.).

I think playing these hires audio will require a dedicated beast, like bluesound node 2i for the DAC bit.
And how does the sound of DTS Play-Fi compare with your external streamer through optical input on Anthem?

That was basically my question. I should have asked it that way in the first place

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post #7426 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 06:30 AM
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Thus ARC OFF is a bit louder. And louder sounds better.
That is true - volume/loudness level matching is important.
Unfortunately, that's not the reason why the sound quality is better without ARC.

We already had this discussion.

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post #7427 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 06:34 AM
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And how does the sound of DTS Play-Fi compare with your external streamer through optical input on Anthem?

That was basically my question. I should have asked it that way in the first place
Haven't checked that out apples to apples comparison yet.
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post #7428 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 07:32 AM
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Haven't checked that out apples to apples comparison yet.
It would be very useful info, so, once when you have nothing better to do...
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post #7429 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 08:13 AM
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I don't think it would be a difference if you use a external play-fi device connected with optical. It still goes through the anthem's DAC. if you had a external device for play-fi with analog outputs it will use the devices DAC if you turn off processing on the analog input on the anthem's ADC of course you wouldn't have ARC if you did this.

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post #7430 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 08:26 AM
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DAC is just one part of the story.

The main advantage of internal streamer is the usage of the same clock which is shared between various components, thus avoiding one of the major problems in digital audio signal transmission/processing - jitter.
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post #7431 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 08:33 AM
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The only advantage I can see if using a digital output would be a better wifi connection from the play-fi device. I wish anthem would offer a upgraded wifi board too make it work like other receivers do. I have never been able to connect to my receiver using any other method than play fi app or play fi from my PC. I would buy the wifi board if they offered it.

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Originally Posted by Maximum7 View Post
Well to me, once a year is pretty rare. Especially for an aging product.


I've decided to pass and wait for Anthem's next offering.
Hopefully Anthem starts to realize that streaming is VERY important to a lot of people. It's getting better all the time and that Play-Fi. is a poor product.
Also, not 100% compatibility of the new ARC on current models is disheartening.


Maybe they'll even make the Amps assignable in the new receivers.
Why do you need a processor to stream? Everything streams. Your TV, blu ray player, Xbox, PS4, etc.

Besides, if streaming is really the core of your watching, a high-end AVR or preamp is completely unnecessary overkill for such compressed audio mess.

Don''t use or care about Play-Fi, but you're right, it's poor. Most just use Spotify or something through other devices.
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post #7433 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 08:50 AM
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A external play-fi device allows for hi res music. Spotify sounds good but still a lossy formant. We want high quality lossless music.

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post #7434 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Norris Kasey View Post
I wish anthem would offer a upgraded wifi board too make it work like other receivers do. I have never been able to connect to my receiver using any other method than play fi app or play fi from my PC. I would buy the wifi board if they offered it.
There is no other method on Anthem, unfortunately. Only Play-Fi.

Very poor choice...

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post #7435 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeekWave View Post
Hmmm, had a good mess around tonight with ARC2, and it seems no matter what I try, I just cant get the mids and highs to sound as good as they do when ARC is off... The bass is certainly more layered with ARC, but the rest is comparatively 'dull'.
Do me a favor. Go to the ARC targets menu for one Profile and set room gain to 0.0. Even when you set ARC to stop at 200 to 500 Hz, that's still part of the equation. Upload then compare. What do you hear?

Quote:
...here's a question: Although we can set a maximum EQ frequency... does ARC continue to do anything at all above that frequency? ...does it still do stuff with time-alignment?
No.
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post #7436 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 09:34 AM
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I use 0 dB room gain.

The sound is (for me) better with this setting, but that doesn't affect the aspects of sound we are talking about.

The with/without ARC difference could be very easily heard in parts of the songs which don't have any bass - e.g. only cymbals and similar sounds. Cymbals are very good for this test. With ARC they sound artificial and "grainy".

Some good songs for the with/without ARC tests:
The Yuri Honing Trio - Walking On The Moon
Josephine Cronholm - In Your Wild Garden
Isao Suzuki Quartet - Aqua Marine
Patricia Barber - Autumn leaves
Christy Baron - Mercy Street
The O-Zone Percussion Group - Jazz Variants
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Last edited by Delija; 05-09-2019 at 10:32 AM.
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post #7437 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 11:00 AM
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Has anyone had the ARC microphone go bad? I bought my MRX1120 just over three years ago, and last ran ARC2 about 18 months ago. The mic now shows up as either unrecognizable or initially works and then drops out with a bad descriptor error after some time. I tried on two machines (Surface Laptop 2 and Surface Pro 3 both running Windows 10 1809) with different USB cable too, though on the SP3 (which I used to run ARC2 on) I did thankfully manage to get through a full set of measurements before it reported a bad descriptor.

I've contacted Anthem support to see if I can order just a replacement mic and not the whole kit, or if it's a known driver issue.
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post #7438 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 06:29 PM
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How do you turn ARC off?
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post #7439 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 06:31 PM
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Go to the profile in the set up menu. It's right above the Dolby Volume if I remember correctly.
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post #7440 of 8066 Old 05-09-2019, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norris Kasey View Post
A external play-fi device allows for hi res music. Spotify sounds good but still a lossy formant. We want high quality lossless music.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
I admit I'm not understanding the issue. Sure, an external play-fi device allows for hi rez music. So does an external HTPC for Tidal or Qubuz. What am I missing?

Just one more upgrade and things will be perfect.
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