Owner's Thread for Anthem 60, 720 and 1120 Receivers - Page 255 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7621 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by nucky View Post
You just have to configure A and then B before you start your measurements. I did A with screen down, B with screen up and C for 2 channel only.
Doh! Due to my monitor settings, I only saw the top two boxes. Thanks for straightening me out on this.
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post #7622 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Turn the crossovers back on, and set them for 80 Hz. Do it. This will help reduce the massive peak at 160 Hz, and also reduce the resonances at 750 Hz and 1.2 kHz. None of that is useful. Run ARC again and see what you get.

I have not seen the overall responses of the mains or what ARC is doing for correction, but I suspect there may be similar significant resonances present. Putting speakers in a cabinet is a great way to cause such problems. The usual solution is to seal the gaps all around the front baffles of the speakers to the side/top walls of the cabinet with something resilient. It may or may not cause heat buildup from the woofer amps, though.
I was under the impression using the sub crossover could cause anomalies if additional signal processing was done to the signal going to the sub. Can you confirm that is not the case?

The front, center and left curves actually look pretty decent being in the cabinet. I have 4-inch "denim" sound insulation with black speaker cloth over it at the rear of the left and right speaker cabinets which is surely robbing some of the bass but my master bedroom is on the other side and didn't want it pounding that wall since I watch movies sometimes after the wife is in bed.

Right now both subs are set at 0 phase. And I have a sound meter. I know there are instructions to balance them first. Do you recommend doing this? Looking at the back of my sub panel below, you would go "fixed low pass 80 Hz", THX Bass EQ, and THX Fixed volume. Or would you bump the sub volume by 3 db?? Thanks for your comments.
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post #7623 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Biff66 View Post
I was under the impression using the sub crossover could cause anomalies if additional signal processing was done to the signal going to the sub. Can you confirm that is not the case?
Yes. But we will see the results regardless.

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The front, center and left curves actually look pretty decent being in the cabinet. I have 4-inch "denim" sound insulation with black speaker cloth over it at the rear of the left and right speaker cabinets which is surely robbing some of the bass but my master bedroom is on the other side and didn't want it pounding that wall since I watch movies sometimes after the wife is in bed.

Right now both subs are set at 0 phase. And I have a sound meter. I know there are instructions to balance them first. Do you recommend doing this?
Yes. In your case, I would set the SPL meter very close to the woofer, say 6-12" and measure a LF tone if that's handy -- anything from 30 to 80 Hz. Set the gain to get the same SPL from each one. Then you know they are contributing equally even if the room/cabinet alter the results.

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Looking at the back of my sub panel below, you would go "fixed low pass 80 Hz", THX Bass EQ, and THX Fixed volume. Or would you bump the sub volume by 3 db?? Thanks for your comments.
Use fixed 80 Hz, anechoic bass EQ (this will help with output <30 Hz), and phase = 0.

[ETA] After the subwoofer response is as tamed as it will be, we will look at adding "distance" to the subwoofer to get the best splice with the L/R speakers.
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Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
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post #7624 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Yes. But we will see the results regardless.

Yes. In your case, I would set the SPL meter very close to the woofer, say 6-12" and measure a LF tone if that's handy -- anything from 30 to 80 Hz. Set the gain to get the same SPL from each one. Then you know they are contributing equally even if the room/cabinet alter the results.

Use fixed 80 Hz, anechoic bass EQ (this will help with output <30 Hz), and phase = 0.

[ETA] After the subwoofer response is as tamed as it will be, we will look at adding "distance" to the subwoofer to get the best splice with the L/R speakers.
Roger,

Do you think I should bump the sub volume by 3 db or so to lower the baseline for ARC? It's a huge pain to even get to the back of the woofers so I would like to only do this once. I have to pull the lower cabinet trim off. I did just download the new beta version so I will use that this weekend when re-running the setup. Front left and center in cabinet below...
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post #7625 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 03:22 PM
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Owner's Thread for Anthem 60, 720 and 1120 Receivers

Anyone encounter the Anthem Genesis forced set the Dolby/ Volume Offset after calibration to -12db instead of the usual 0db? I’ve encountered it after updating to the beta version. Now the trim has negative values while the rest like the crossover settings remained intact (good). I did not change any settings before I did the calibration. I have re-ran Anthem Genesis about 2 to 3 times and still get the same results. It seems to affect o my the speaker levels. After calibration, the target sound level was now at 90db instead of the usual 75db.

Anyone knows what is happening here and how to fix it? If course, I can always upload my last Genesis arc3 file to get back to normal speaker levels. But just want to know why am I experiencing this?



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post #7626 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Biff66 View Post
Roger,

Do you think I should bump the sub volume by 3 db or so to lower the baseline for ARC? It's a huge pain to even get to the back of the woofers so I would like to only do this once. I have to pull the lower cabinet trim off. I did just download the new beta version so I will use that this weekend when re-running the setup. Front left and center in cabinet below...
I saw that the first Genesis pass set the sub gain to +12. But I would not change anything until you run the new beta and see what it tells you. Yes, if it comes back at +12, I'd give it at least 6 dB more on the sub's controls (if you have it), because sometimes folks like to set their subs a wee bit higher than "calibrated" especially for music listening.

Allegedly "quick measure" will tell you something about the subwoofer gain calibration, but I have never used it so not sure if it is useful for getting in the zone.

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win7 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
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post #7627 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by desray2k View Post
Anyone encounter the Anthem Genesis forced set the Dolby/ Volume Offset after calibration to -12db instead of the usual 0db? I’ve encountered it after updating to the beta version. Now the trim has negative values while the rest like the crossover settings remained intact (good). I did not change any settings before I did the calibration. I have re-ran Anthem Genesis about 2 to 3 times and still get the same results. It seems to affect o my the speaker levels. After calibration, the target sound level was now at 90db instead of the usual 75db.

Anyone knows what is happening here and how to fix it? If course, I can always upload my last Genesis arc3 file to get back to normal speaker levels. But just want to know why am I experiencing this?



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I just checked all four of my profile sin the MRX and the Dolby Offset\Level Calibration is 0 on all of them with the Genesis Beta. Check your Genesis "Set Speaker Level" screen for each of your profiles. Make sure your System Wide Level Target is 0. This is where the Dolby Offset\Level Calibration get's is level from.

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post #7628 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Did you run the Genesis on the website or the beta version I linked?

Ahh the beta, hence why I quoted that post, it wouldn't have done so otherwise -I know some would perhaps make that faux pas.
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post #7629 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
I just checked all four of my profile sin the MRX and the Dolby Offset\Level Calibration is 0 on all of them with the Genesis Beta. Check your Genesis "Set Speaker Level" screen for each of your profiles. Make sure your System Wide Level Target is 0. This is where the Dolby Offset\Level Calibration get's is level from.
Thanks Legairre...I will check again.
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post #7630 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by desray2k View Post
Anyone encounter the Anthem Genesis forced set the Dolby/ Volume Offset after calibration to -12db instead of the usual 0db? I’ve encountered it after updating to the beta version. Now the trim has negative values while the rest like the crossover settings remained intact (good). I did not change any settings before I did the calibration. I have re-ran Anthem Genesis about 2 to 3 times and still get the same results. It seems to affect o my the speaker levels. After calibration, the target sound level was now at 90db instead of the usual 75db.

Anyone knows what is happening here and how to fix it? If course, I can always upload my last Genesis arc3 file to get back to normal speaker levels. But just want to know why am I experiencing this?
I have always wondered what purpose the Dolby/Volume offset does.

BTW in my room it came out at +11.

I of course observe that it changes the level of the noise generator when one has it turned on in the Level Calibration menu. I like that because I can set the noise to a nominal 70 dB which is a nice spot on my analog SPL meter display.

But other than that I would like to know if that setting has any effect on anything ARC does when setting/measuring. Can anyone confirm if it does any such thing?

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win7 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
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post #7631 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 06:15 PM
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I have a 60 and am using the trigger to turn on my amps but am unable to turn off the amps with the trigger. Am I missing a setting?


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post #7632 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I have always wondered what purpose the Dolby/Volume offset does.

BTW in my room it came out at +11.

I of course observe that it changes the level of the noise generator when one has it turned on in the Level Calibration menu. I like that because I can set the noise to a nominal 70 dB which is a nice spot on my analog SPL meter display.

But other than that I would like to know if that setting has any effect on anything ARC does when setting/measuring. Can anyone confirm if it does any such thing?
The Dolby Offset/Level Calibration is only used for the test tones in the Level Calibration screen. If for some reason ARC calibrated your system wide level to 64dB instead of 75dB the Dolby Offset/Level Calibration would be set at +11 because it would need to add 11 to get to 75dB.

If you were to add say 3dB to the system wide level then the Dolby Offset/Level Calibration will be reduced by 3dB and if you reduce the system wide level by say 3dB the Dolby Offset/Level Calibration will be increased by 3dB. The Dolby Offset/Level Calibration's wants to stay at a reference of 75dB for the manual test tone.

What level did Genesis set your system wide level at? If the Dolby Offset/Level Calibration is +11 your system wide level should be 64dB.

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post #7633 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mitchlampert View Post
I have a 60 and am using the trigger to turn on my amps but am unable to turn off the amps with the trigger. Am I missing a setting?


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In your 60 go to the Network/Remote Control screen and check your Trigger Configuration. Set the trigger "Power" setting to Main and leave all the devices to set to off.

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post #7634 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mitchlampert View Post
I have a 60 and am using the trigger to turn on my amps but am unable to turn off the amps with the trigger. Am I missing a setting?
What kind of amp? Not that it should matter.

Can you measure the trigger voltage while the amp is connected? Maybe use an earphone splitter cable then a male-to-male cable so you can get access to the tip and sleeve terminals. Make sure the AVM is turned off while changing the connections. Just in case it is as poorly designed as a Marantz.

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post #7635 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 06:37 PM
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What amps?

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post #7636 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
What level did Genesis set your system wide level at? If the Dolby Offset/Level Calibration is +11 your system wide level should be 64dB.
With the original release, it showed 64 dB as the system-wide target. The beta release shows 55 dB.

I was able to advance the level cals to achieve 75 dB in all channels (MV=0), and it sounds good (no distortion anymore), so I'm happy.

But it sounds like it does not matter if the end user fiddles with the Dolby Offset value, as ARC will do what it wants with it when a new measurement run is performed. Right?

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win7 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
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post #7637 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
With the original release, it showed 64 dB as the system-wide target. The beta release shows 55 dB.

I was able to advance the level cals to achieve 75 dB in all channels (MV=0), and it sounds good (no distortion anymore), so I'm happy.

But it sounds like it does not matter if the end user fiddles with the Dolby Offset value, as ARC will do what it wants with it when a new measurement run is performed. Right?
Even though my speaker level settings are identical with the beta version, the main volume is lower. Strange.

Before, at -30 on the MV, I was reaching 75 dB with most material. Now it's more like -27.

Video: JVC RS620/X9500 projector, Stewart ST130 screen, Panasonic ub820 UHD player
Audio: Anthem AVM60 preamp, Anthem MCA525 amp, B&K Reference 125.7 amp
Subs: dual SVS PC-12 cylinders
Speakers: Jamo 626k4 in-wall mains, Jamo 631k4 bi/dipole surrounds, DefTech DI6.5R heights
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
With the original release, it showed 64 dB as the system-wide target. The beta release shows 55 dB.

I was able to advance the level cals to achieve 75 dB in all channels (MV=0), and it sounds good (no distortion anymore), so I'm happy.

But it sounds like it does not matter if the end user fiddles with the Dolby Offset value, as ARC will do what it wants with it when a new measurement run is performed. Right?
Yeah it doesn't matter what you set it to because if you run a new measurement it will set itself to whatever +/- value it needs to default to 75dB again for the test one screen in the MRX or AVM. It doesn't have any effect on anything except those tones.

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post #7639 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Even though my speaker level settings are identical with the beta version, the main volume is lower. Strange.

Before, at -30 on the MV, I was reaching 75 dB with most material. Now it's more like -27.
Are you reaching 75dB at -27 measuring just one speaker? Also what did Genesis set the system wide level in your profiles at?

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post #7640 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
Are you reaching 75dB at -27 measuring just one speaker? Also what did Genesis set the system wide level in your profiles at?
System wide level was set to 75 dB on both. Playing exact scenes and measuring with an SPL, the beta is measuring 3-4 dB lower in volume.

Genesis seemed to "hot" to begin with, so perhaps this is a welcome change?

Video: JVC RS620/X9500 projector, Stewart ST130 screen, Panasonic ub820 UHD player
Audio: Anthem AVM60 preamp, Anthem MCA525 amp, B&K Reference 125.7 amp
Subs: dual SVS PC-12 cylinders
Speakers: Jamo 626k4 in-wall mains, Jamo 631k4 bi/dipole surrounds, DefTech DI6.5R heights
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post #7641 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
System wide level was set to 75 dB on both. Playing exact scenes and measuring with an SPL, the beta is measuring 3-4 dB lower in volume.

Genesis seemed to "hot" to begin with, so perhaps this is a welcome change?
But are you measuring 75dB with one speaker or the whole system?

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post #7642 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
But are you measuring 75dB with one speaker or the whole system?

Whole system. Playing the same scene and getting about 3-4 dB lower output

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post #7643 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
The Dolby Offset/Level Calibration is only used for the test tones in the Level Calibration screen. If for some reason ARC calibrated your system wide level to 64dB instead of 75dB the Dolby Offset/Level Calibration would be set at +11 because it would need to add 11 to get to 75dB.

If you were to add say 3dB to the system wide level then the Dolby Offset/Level Calibration will be reduced by 3dB and if you reduce the system wide level by say 3dB the Dolby Offset/Level Calibration will be increased by 3dB. The Dolby Offset/Level Calibration's wants to stay at a reference of 75dB for the manual test tone.

What level did Genesis set your system wide level at? If the Dolby Offset/Level Calibration is +11 your system wide level should be 64dB.


I thought it should default to 75db without user intervention? In my case, I have never play with system wide settings for the speaker level hence baffled by the change.


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post #7644 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 10:15 PM
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Owner's Thread for Anthem 60, 720 and 1120 Receivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
With the original release, it showed 64 dB as the system-wide target. The beta release shows 55 dB.



I was able to advance the level cals to achieve 75 dB in all channels (MV=0), and it sounds good (no distortion anymore), so I'm happy.



But it sounds like it does not matter if the end user fiddles with the Dolby Offset value, as ARC will do what it wants with it when a new measurement run is performed. Right?


That’s my question too...I think ARC Genesis applies its own calibration level at the onset. I doubt user can make any pre calibration adjustment to ensure 75db is the system wide targeted calibration level. Correct me if I’m wrong. Still working so unable to confirm at this stage.

I have a feeling it’s a bug that need to be fixed?

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post #7645 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
The Dolby Offset/Level Calibration is only used for the test tones in the Level Calibration screen. If for some reason ARC calibrated your system wide level to 64dB instead of 75dB the Dolby Offset/Level Calibration would be set at +11 because it would need to add 11 to get to 75dB.

If you were to add say 3dB to the system wide level then the Dolby Offset/Level Calibration will be reduced by 3dB and if you reduce the system wide level by say 3dB the Dolby Offset/Level Calibration will be increased by 3dB. The Dolby Offset/Level Calibration's wants to stay at a reference of 75dB for the manual test tone.

What level did Genesis set your system wide level at? If the Dolby Offset/Level Calibration is +11 your system wide level should be 64dB.

My question is why ARC Genesis will behave in such a manner?



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post #7646 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by desray2k View Post
That’s my question too...I think ARC Genesis applies its own calibration level at the onset. I doubt user can make any pre calibration adjustment to ensure 75db is the system wide targeted calibration level. Correct me if I’m wrong. Still working so unable to confirm at this stage.

I have a feeling it’s a bug that need to be fixed?
I don't see it as a bug, because Anthem makes no claim that all speakers will be calibrated to 75 dB. Maybe I missed it. And previously, I was told that they aim for MV= -10 to be 75 dB (for a -30 dBFS signal), which is 10 dB hotter than normal.

Anyway, there are two things that affect the final SPL target ARC chooses: the greatest difference in output between the speakers, and perhaps the mean (the value mid way between the extremes). I say perhaps because it might well be a value a bit lower than the mean because the EQ stage has more cut than boost available. Anyway, you get the idea.

The subwoofer, being the wildest card in the deck, can easily throw things off so if you have already balanced the system, look at the gain settings for the main speakers. Find the lowest and the highest. The subwoofer needs to fall somewhere between them. Otherwise ARC has to dance to find a target that will enable both the EQ corrections and gain trims to hit a common SPL.

If you have some speakers that have significantly different levels than others, like more than a 10-12 dB difference, that is taking away from ARC's degrees of freedom. Trouble is, there's not all that much one can do as, except for subs, amps usually have no level adjustments. One can sometimes switch from XLR to phono and drop 6 dB, or insert a passive attenuator in line. Not very precise.

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post #7647 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I don't see it as a bug, because Anthem makes no claim that all speakers will be calibrated to 75 dB. Maybe I missed it. And previously, I was told that they aim for MV= -10 to be 75 dB (for a -30 dBFS signal), which is 10 dB hotter than normal.



Anyway, there are two things that affect the final SPL target ARC chooses: the greatest difference in output between the speakers, and perhaps the mean (the value mid way between the extremes). I say perhaps because it might well be a value a bit lower than the mean because the EQ stage has more cut than boost available. Anyway, you get the idea.



The subwoofer, being the wildest card in the deck, can easily throw things off so if you have already balanced the system, look at the gain settings for the main speakers. Find the lowest and the highest. The subwoofer needs to fall somewhere between them. Otherwise ARC has to dance to find a target that will enable both the EQ corrections and gain trims to hit a common SPL.



If you have some speakers that have significantly different levels than others, like more than a 10-12 dB difference, that is taking away from ARC's degrees of freedom. Trouble is, there's not all that much one can do as, except for subs, amps usually have no level adjustments. One can sometimes switch from XLR to phono and drop 6 dB, or insert a passive attenuator in line. Not very precise.


I get what you mean and trust me when I say I agreed with your assessment and observations. But this still doesn’t make any sense for a simple reason, I don’t change any speakers or subwoofers or even a power amp into the equation prior to this. Meaning I have no problem “constantly” getting 75db without any offset values applied. Why then now?



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post #7648 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by desray2k View Post
I get what you mean and trust me when I say I agreed with your assessment and observations. But this still doesn’t make any sense for a simple reason, I don’t change any speakers or subwoofers or even a power amp into the equation prior to this. Meaning I have no problem “constantly” getting 75db without any offset values applied. Why then now?
ARC.2 vs ARC.3? That would be an excellent question for Anthem.

Did you post your pdf report, by any chance?

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post #7649 of 8070 Old 05-23-2019, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
ARC.2 vs ARC.3? That would be an excellent question for Anthem.



Did you post your pdf report, by any chance?

Maybe let me clarify, I have no problem using ARC Genesis to get calibration level at 75db (meaning no offset values applied) BEFORE I update to this new beta release. It only happened AFTER I updated to this beta release.

For what it’s worth, I’ve already forwarded my query on this offset values to the Anthem Support team and pending a reply.



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post #7650 of 8070 Old 05-24-2019, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Even though my speaker level settings are identical with the beta version, the main volume is lower. Strange.

Before, at -30 on the MV, I was reaching 75 dB with most material. Now it's more like -27.
How does it compare with ARC2?


My observation - version 1.0.1.8867:
(I haven't tried beta 1.1.0.8908)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delija View Post
Compared with ARC2, all speaker levels are +3dB, the SPL on same MV is 4dB higher with ARC / 3dB without ARC - the difference in SPL with and without ARC on the same MV was 3dB with ARC2 and now is 2dB with Genesis.

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