The "OFFICIAL" Yamaha 1050/2050/3050 Owner's thread. - Page 125 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3721 of 10698 Old 01-13-2016, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mmmmmmbacon View Post
If you are using your smart TV to access apps like Netflix, Hulu, etc and want audio out of your avr instead of your TV speakers, then yes, arc is how you achieve it. Personally, I use a Roku 4 for that content, instead of my Samsung un75hu8550, and skip arc altogether. The Sammies are notoriously sketchy with their arc functionality though. Like you, I have everything through my 3050 and use Harmony...it has been great.

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Great- thanks! We go through the Xbox one now for Amazon prime - were thinking about getting Netflix again... Was thinking the smart TV app might be more user friendly for the missus - so that's what got me thinking....

Appreciate it.
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post #3722 of 10698 Old 01-13-2016, 06:32 PM
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I don't disagree that my situation with this particular system may be different from others (I presented it as an extreme example), but I feel that to say one should always set their speakers to "small" is misleading, at best. I have 5 other systems with Yamaha AVRs from 5 to 11 channels (all with more conventional speakers) and as I previously said, I find it best to set the sizes according to the actual response capabilities of the speakers. I've not run into power problems (significant or even noticeable distortion) with this approach yet.
Setting speakers to 'SMALL' has nothing to do with the physical size of the speakers, how much one spent on them, how intelligent the individual is or any other 'misleading' connotations. Setting speaker(s) either 'SMALL' or 'LARGE' is very specific in a pre/pro/receiver and that is to implement bass management or not. 'SMALL' means implementing bass management while 'LARGE' means no bass management. Another way to look at is: enabling re-direction of the bass frequencies.

There are significant benefits to implementing bass management in a 5.1/7.1 system, as well as with the new object audio formats of Atmos and DTS:X. The vast majority of users would benefit with bass management set to ON (i.e. speakers set to 'SMALL'). There will be exceptions such as yourself, but there are few things to ask when setting the fronts to 'LARGE'.

Is one comfortable that the 0.1 channel is being re-directed to the fronts if there is no sub? The reason being is that this sub channel is mixed +10dB hotter than the other channels. I.e. in terms of sound reproduction at the same SPL and frequency, a +10dB increase means 10x more power that the fronts will have to carry. In some movie soundtracks, the 0.1 channel can go down to low single digit frequencies - are the fronts capable of cleanly reproducing this? Try the opening scene of the blu-ray title called Live,Die, Repeat (Edge of Tomorrow) at below reference level and slowly increase up to reference level if possible. When other channels are set to 'SMALL', the bass frequencies below the crossover will also be re-directed to the fronts. If the house curve has a low frequency gain of +XdB due to preference, is there sufficient headroom available in the system?

The question one should be asking is within the listening room and the particular setup, at the desired volume level is the system capable of reproducing the full range of frequencies in the movie soundtrack when the fronts are set to 'LARGE'? If one has done the homework, verified this through tests and can honestly say yes the system can handle it, then by all means set the front speakers to 'LARGE'. The majority would be better off with implementing bass management and set the fronts to 'SMALL', so this is not a wrong recommendation.

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Last edited by steveting99; 01-13-2016 at 09:56 PM. Reason: additional text
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post #3723 of 10698 Old 01-13-2016, 07:56 PM
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I agree completely..Always have my ML Aerons set to small, cause I have a wonderful ML Sub, so its a really nice combo..

And, if you know ML, you know those aren't "small" speakers..
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post #3724 of 10698 Old 01-13-2016, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Setting speakers to 'SMALL' has nothing to do with the physical size of the speakers, how much one spent on them, how intelligent the individual is or any other 'misleading' connotations. Setting speaker(s) either 'SMALL' or 'LARGE' is very specific in a pre/pro/receiver and that is to implement bass management or not. 'SMALL' means implementing bass management while 'LARGE' means no bass management. Another way to look at is: enabling re-direction of the bass frequencies.

There are significant benefits to implementing bass management in a 5.1/7.1 system, as well as with the new object audio formats of Atmos and DTS:X. The vast majority of users would benefit with bass management set to ON (i.e. speakers set to 'SMALL'). There will be exceptions such as yourself, but there are few things to ask when setting the fronts to 'LARGE'.

Is one comfortable that the 0.1 channel is being re-directed to the fronts? The reason being is that this sub channel is mixed +10dB hotter than the other channels. I.e. in terms of sound reproduction at the same SPL and frequency, a +10dB increase means 10x more power that the fronts will have to carry. In some movie soundtracks, the 0.1 channel can go down to low single digit frequencies - are the fronts capable of cleanly reproducing this? Try the opening scene of the blu-ray title called Live,Die, Repeat (Edge of Tomorrow) at below reference level and slowly increase up to reference level if possible. When other channels are set to 'SMALL', the bass frequencies below the crossover will also be re-directed to the fronts. If the house curve has a low frequency gain of +XdB due to preference, is there sufficient headroom available in the system?

The question one should be asking is within the listening room and the particular setup, at the desired volume level is the system capable of reproducing the full range of frequencies in the movie soundtrack when the fronts are set to 'LARGE'? If one has done the homework, verified this through tests and can honestly say yes the system can handle it, then by all means set the front speakers to 'LARGE'. The majority would be better off with implementing bass management and set the fronts to 'SMALL', so this is not a wrong recommendation.
I never said that setting speakers to 'small' is wrong, only that I don't agree with ALWAYS setting them to small. Clearly you wish to devote much more energy to this discussion than I.
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post #3725 of 10698 Old 01-13-2016, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post
I never said that setting speakers to 'small' is wrong, only that I don't agree with ALWAYS setting them to small. Clearly you wish to devote much more energy to this discussion than I.
In post number 3688, the reply to wase4711 and your reason for setting the speakers to 'LARGE' based on physical size of the speaker is the part that needed clarification. Perhaps there is a typo/terminology in the post and I misread it? Easy to do around here at AVS.

The basic concept that wase4711 had is correct in that bass management / redirection is when speakers are set to 'SMALL'. It has nothing to do with the physical size of the speaker, which is where the terminology and setting confusion comes in for most.

Now that you've set your fronts to 'LARGE' how loud were you able to play the intro scene of Edge of Tomorrow (Live,Die,Repeat on the blu-ray title)?

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post #3726 of 10698 Old 01-13-2016, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post

Is one comfortable that the 0.1 channel is being re-directed to the fronts?

While I agree with you about the use of bass management, this particular point is incorrect. The .1 LFE channel is always directed to the sub. Small or Large settings only determine what to do with the bass in that particular channel, not the LFE channel.

Anyway, I use to subscribe to the thinking that a main L/R channel speaker capable of low frequency extension was best utilized full range... Until I started measuring the room response. It became immediately clear that the mains were constructively and destructively interfering with each other, the subs, and the room at different frequencies creating radical peaks and valleys in the frequency response below 120Hz. My bass response was a mess and running mains full range was the main culprit.

It's simply a result of the physics of sub-bass frequencies having wavelengths that don't play well in typical room sizes used for home theater.

The key to good low-end frequency response is careful placement of those drivers. That's a big advantage to using subs... They can be placed anywhere to optimize the response at the MLP. You clearly cannot move your main L/R channels around in this manner.

So even if you have full range mains, you're almost always better off redirecting their sub-bass to sub woofers. And getting at least two subs and using an RTA spectrum analyzer to monitor the response while you find the ideal placement for them.
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post #3727 of 10698 Old 01-13-2016, 10:43 PM
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While I agree with you about the use of bass management, this particular point is incorrect. The .1 LFE channel is always directed to the sub. Small or Large settings only determine what to do with the bass in that particular channel, not the LFE channel.
Agree with you on this one. The post has been corrected to say if there is no sub, the 0.1 channel is re-directed to the mains. If a sub is present, the 0.1 channel is directed to the sub as well as any other channels set to 'SMALL'. Having some push back is good.

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Originally Posted by virtualrain View Post
...Anyway, I use to subscribe to the thinking that a main L/R channel speaker capable of low frequency extension was best utilized full range... Until I started measuring the room response. It became immediately clear that the mains were constructively and destructively interfering with each other, the subs, and the room at different frequencies creating radical peaks and valleys in the frequency response below 120Hz. My bass response was a mess and running mains full range was the main culprit.

It's simply a result of the physics of sub-bass frequencies having wavelengths that don't play well in typical room sizes used for home theater.

The key to good low-end frequency response is careful placement of those drivers. That's a big advantage to using subs... They can be placed anywhere to optimize the response at the MLP. You clearly cannot move your main L/R channels around in this manner.

So even if you have full range mains, you're almost always better off redirecting their sub-bass to sub woofers. And getting at least two subs and using an RTA spectrum analyzer to monitor the response while you find the ideal placement for them.
Yeah, via REW measurements I also found out the hard way that setting full range on the mains are not that great. Whilst the bass interference patterns for one channel is good, when combined with another channel, turned out to be bad. This is after applying room correction.

Like you said, the better concept is redirection of the bass frequencies and having a high crossover. This provided a smoother response and this resolved the issue for me. But that meant setting the mains to 'SMALL' even though the in room F3 response of each main channel can go down to 18Hz. C'est la vie as the saying goes.
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post #3728 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 01:57 AM
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THE NEW 2015 LINE OF RECEIVERS ARE SHIPPING TO STORES RIGHT NOW.

I'll only concentrate on the big 3. Here is the comparison link.

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio..._&mode=compare

They are largely unchanged except for HDCP 2.2,HDR(High Dynamic Range),DTS-X and DTS Neural-X(With a future firmware update).
The 2050 now has 2 dac's instead of 1.
All 3 receivers have DSU(Dolby Surround Upmixer)
are those A/V receivers capable to upscale the following

HDMI 1080p 60hz -> HDMI 4K 60 hz ????

please note that i am speaking about 60hz and that in the user manual the capability of the upscale processor are not reported: actually the manual just speak about the input/output resolution/speed possibility like 4k60p 4:4:4 but, again, it doesn't mention if the receiver can upscale at 60hz
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post #3729 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 04:17 AM
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The .1 LFE channel is always directed to the sub. Small or Large settings only determine what to do with the bass in that particular channel, not the LFE channel.
I dont understand this statement. Seems as if youre stating that the ".1 LFE channel" and "LFE channel" are 2 different things.
Also if small or large only determine what to do with the bass in that particular channel when does the AVR crossover become meaningful?
What purpose does the "Extra Bass" option serve?
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post #3730 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 04:21 AM
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The post has been corrected to say if there is no sub, the 0.1 channel is re-directed to the mains. If a sub is present, the 0.1 channel is directed to the sub as well as any other channels set to 'SMALL'.
Dont you mean if a sub is present, the .1 channel is directed to the sub as well as any other channels set to LARGE?
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post #3731 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 05:34 AM
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I just picked up a brand new 3050 yesterday from an online retailer for a very good price ($1550). I hope to get it in the mail soon.

For those using Atmos with this receiver. Are you using in-ceiling speakers or Atmos enabled speakers (module). I currently don't have any in-ceiling speaker and probably won't be able to add any so, I'm curious about the best Atmos enabled speakers out there. I had my eye on the Klipsch Atmos modules.
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post #3732 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 05:49 AM
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I just picked up a brand new 3050 yesterday from an online retailer for a very good price ($1550). I hope to get it in the mail soon.

For those using Atmos with this receiver. Are you using in-ceiling speakers or Atmos enabled speakers (module). I currently don't have any in-ceiling speaker and probably won't be able to add any so, I'm curious about the best Atmos enabled speakers out there. I had my eye on the Klipsch Atmos modules.
Congrats on the purchase! You may want to check this thread...lots of good info and suggestions. https://www.avsforum.com/showthread.php?t=1649609
Best in ceiling speakers for Atmos?

Depending on your room and ceiling height, I think most will agree, in ceiling is preferred and provides an exceptional experience (especially .4 vs .2).

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post #3733 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 06:43 AM
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Dont you mean if a sub is present, the .1 channel is directed to the sub as well as any other channels set to LARGE?
That's not how bass management works.

If the sub is present and if any speaker is set to 'SMALL', frequencies below the crossover is sent to the sub. If the speaker is set to 'LARGE' then the full range signals for that channel is sent to the speaker. See picture below for a 5.1 system.


If there is no sub, then the 0.1 LFE channel is re-directed to the front mains. I.e. the front left and front right channels.
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post #3734 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 07:39 AM
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i'm using Straight for Atmos movies. Anything else I'm using DSU.
To make use of the YPAO calibration, does it need to be running in Cinema DSP HD3? Then I'd guess it would run in "Standard" or some other sound program...? Or does DSU take all calibration information into account?
Thanks
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post #3735 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 07:50 AM
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I believe that once YPAO has been calibrated, it applies across the board. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

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post #3736 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
I dont understand this statement. Seems as if youre stating that the ".1 LFE channel" and "LFE channel" are 2 different things.
Also if small or large only determine what to do with the bass in that particular channel when does the AVR crossover become meaningful?
What purpose does the "Extra Bass" option serve?
I'm not sure why it seems like I'm saying that... but regardless, the LFE channel is the .1 in 5.1 or 7.1 and that is the sub channel.

I think steveting99 addressed your second question about the role of the cross-over in his post above.

The "Extra Bass" feature will send sub-bass from your L/R mains to the sub while also running them full range... thus the bass sent to the L/R channels ends up being doubled. This is likely to cause even more havoc with room nodes and nulls.

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post #3737 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Also if small or large only determine what to do with the bass in that particular channel when does the AVR crossover become meaningful?
What purpose does the "Extra Bass" option serve?
In this generation of Aventage, the "Extra Bass" option simply does that: boosts low frequencies (whether main or LFE). Previously it did things like re-direct low frequencies between mains<-> LFE (I don't use it...or a sub). The cross-over frequency determines which (low) frequencies are re-directed to the sub, and should be set depending on the frequency response of the speakers in question (when set to "small").
Everything else is correct (nice diagram).

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post #3738 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Ccondo1 View Post
To make use of the YPAO calibration, does it need to be running in Cinema DSP HD3? Then I'd guess it would run in "Standard" or some other sound program...? Or does DSU take all calibration information into account?

Thanks

I'm a new owner of the RX-A3050 and I have the same question in my mind.


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post #3739 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Correct.
So by those standards a part of the LFE signal is always going to the fronts unless youre using a xover of 120 or higher.
Only if you don't select "LFE" in the system config; otherwise it doesn't matter what you set as a XO (if your speakers are set to "small"). Once you select "LFE", then all the bass management kicks in.
For example, I set my speakers = "large", set LFE = "on", but don't actually use a sub-woofer. The result is: I get all of the bass present in the "main" channels (which is plenty) and none of the LFE (which means no buzzing/shaking/etc that my family hates).

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post #3740 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Stanton View Post
Only if you don't select "LFE" in the system config; otherwise it doesn't matter what you set as a XO (if your speakers are set to "small"). Once you select "LFE", then all the bass management kicks in.
For example, I set my speakers = "large", set LFE = "on", but don't actually use a sub-woofer. The result is: I get all of the bass present in the "main" channels (which is plenty) and none of the LFE (which means no buzzing/shaking/etc that my family hates).
I dont have an LFE option.
Maybe some of the confusion is calling "LFE management" "bass management". LFE management is just part of bass management.
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post #3741 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by AbbyDaddy View Post
I believe that once YPAO has been calibrated, it applies across the board. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
Correct.
Only "Through" or Pure Direct will disable it. Even then such things as speaker distances and possibly levels will still apply.
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post #3742 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Ccondo1 View Post
To make use of the YPAO calibration, does it need to be running in Cinema DSP HD3? Then I'd guess it would run in "Standard" or some other sound program...? Or does DSU take all calibration information into account?

Thanks

I need to run the YPAO now and want to be sure I'm running it correctly, could somebody reply to these questions?


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post #3743 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
I dont have an LFE option.
Maybe some of the confusion is calling "LFE management" "bass management". LFE management is just part of bass management.
If you own these AVRs you have an LFE option: it's called "Subwoofer 1/2" on page 135 of the manual. This determines how LFE material is handled (like the .1 channel). Just because you tell the system you have a sub (which routes .1 info to the sub) doesn't mean you have to connect one.

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post #3744 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Showmak View Post
I need to run the YPAO now and want to be sure I'm running it correctly, could somebody reply to these questions?


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Place the mic properly.
Set proper sub settings.
Run YPAO.
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post #3745 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Stanton View Post
If you own these AVRs you have an LFE option: it's called "Subwoofer 1/2" on page 135 of the manual. This determines how LFE material is handled (like the .1 channel). Just because you tell the system you have a sub (which routes .1 info to the sub) doesn't mean you have to connect one.
Thats a new option for Yamaha. Been in Denons for years.
I have a 2030.
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post #3746 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Correct.
Only "Through" or Pure Direct will disable it. Even then such things as speaker distances and possibly levels will still apply.
What about more detailed information than basic distances and frequencies? What about the room reflections, etc that HD3 is supposed to take into account?
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post #3747 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 09:10 AM
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The large-small setting that ypao does is confusing since Ive always been use to running a test tone setting spks to 75db spks small and that's it.I thought ypao measured the postion of the SPK which tells the 2050 its large,I know if you put a SPK near a wall or boundary of a room it changes the sound,put that same SPK in the middle of a room it will sound different.One more the test tone on the 2050,I can hardly hear it,should you set the volume to 0 and then run a test tone.
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post #3748 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Ccondo1 View Post
What about more detailed information than basic distances and frequencies? What about the room reflections, etc that HD3 is supposed to take into account?
I believe room reflection calculations still apply. They are used for distance settings.
The frequencey PEQ settings are the first to go when using Through or Pure Direct.

Last edited by Bond 007; 01-14-2016 at 10:26 AM.
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post #3749 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 09:16 AM
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Thats a new option for Yamaha. Been in Denons for years.
I have a 2030.
Well, that explains it: I assume someone commenting in a xx50 owner's thread actually owns one. I'm sure there are several "new" things in the last 2 generations (not to mention new sound formats).

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post #3750 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 09:19 AM
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Well, that explains it: I assume someone commenting in a xx50 owner's thread actually owns one. I'm sure there are several "new" things in the last 2 generations (not to mention new sound formats).
Very very few changes.
Dont have to own one to know most everything about them. Im sure I know more than many owners in this thread. Owned Yamaha for years.
Thanks.
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Last edited by Bond 007; 01-14-2016 at 10:24 AM.
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