The "OFFICIAL" Yamaha 1050/2050/3050 Owner's thread. - Page 127 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3781 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 05:02 PM
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Hello,

I need some help please.

I have a rx2050 and today in test tone i notice something strange in my sub (SVS PB2000) the sub is set like always and today i went to the configuration too raise the level of the sub, for my "surprise", i put the gain in + 1db , +3, +4, +5..... the sub is barely noticed :-/ whats happened???

Every is alright and then not.... the sub is OK , i try in another receiver... Yamaha is sick??? What do you guys recommend me too do??

Thanks in advance
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post #3782 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
The manual for my RX-V3900 made specific reference to the size of the driver in the speaker to determine speaker size.
Although not perfect, it is better than just Large or Small which most will interpret as the size of the cabinet.

It reads "If your Speaker has a Driver of 6.5" or less it should be set to Small".

My L/R floor standers have a pair of 6.5" drivers each, and although they are physically "Large" cabinets
and can extend down to 44Hz, I still set them to small and crossed them over at 80Hz.
...just like I did for my other 9 bookshelf size speakers around the room with similar size drivers.

I prefer to send as much bass as possible to my Subs ( Two 12" and Two 15" Velodyne's)
Several reason for this, they can extend down to 18Hz with ease, they have their own power supply
....and total max peak output is capable of over 4000 watts.

I don't need even half of that, but it's there when I want it and they only have to work half as hard to achieve reference SPL.

But the main benefit to the rest of the system is my little 6.5" drivers don't need to work as hard to play mid-bass frequencies now,
AND the internal amps in the AVR don't have to work nearly as hard or get as hot.
Any particular reason you didn't choose to set the crossover at 60Hz for your L/R speakers? That's likely where I would have set it as I use the speakers low frequency response specification as a guide.

I know that there's alot said about how 80Hz is the ideal frequency, but I guess I am having a hard time understanding just why that is so.

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post #3783 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
The manual for my RX-V3900 made specific reference to the size of the driver in the speaker to determine speaker size.
Although not perfect, it is better than just Large or Small which most will interpret as the size of the cabinet.

It reads "If your Speaker has a Driver of 6.5" or less it should be set to Small".

My L/R floor standers have a pair of 6.5" drivers each, and although they are physically "Large" cabinets
and can extend down to 44Hz, I still set them to small and crossed them over at 80Hz.
...just like I did for my other 9 bookshelf size speakers around the room with similar size drivers.

I prefer to send as much bass as possible to my Subs ( Two 12" and Two 15" Velodyne's)
Several reason for this, they can extend down to 18Hz with ease, they have their own power supply
....and total max peak output is capable of over 4000 watts.

I don't need even half of that, but it's there when I want it and they only have to work half as hard to achieve reference SPL.

But the main benefit to the rest of the system is my little 6.5" drivers don't need to work as hard to play mid-bass frequencies now,
AND the internal amps in the AVR don't have to work nearly as hard or get as hot.
Makes sense.

My L+R and surrounds all have 12" woofers. They go down to 40Hz so I set them to large.
I crossover my sub at it's minimum...50Hz.
My center has 2x8" 1X6.5" and it's set to small.

I hate sub-audible bass. My hearing tested with a swept oscillator through my system is 25Hz-16K
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post #3784 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post
Any particular reason you didn't choose to set the crossover at 60Hz for your L/R speakers? That's likely where I would have set it as I use the speakers low frequency response specification as a guide.

I know that there's alot said about how 80Hz is the ideal frequency, but I guess I am having a hard time understanding just why that is so.
Because my Subs play everything below 80Hz and do it substantially better, with more power
and are at 4 locations around the room as opposed to just having it come from the front L/R.

A 150w/ch AVR rating is typically based on just 2 channels driven
and would be lucky to put out 40-50w/ch when 7 or more channels are driven simultaneously.

So why send more bandwidth (at 40w) to a tower speaker
instead of directing those frequencies to a 1000 watt powered sub?
As mentioned before, less work for my amp frees up the 6.5" drivers to play higher mid-bass frequencies.

My Room is set up 100% for Multi-Channel Movies,
I would never have it any other way unless I wanted to use it as a two channel music setup.
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post #3785 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post
Any particular reason you didn't choose to set the crossover at 60Hz for your L/R speakers? That's likely where I would have set it as I use the speakers low frequency response specification as a guide.

I know that there's alot said about how 80Hz is the ideal frequency, but I guess I am having a hard time understanding just why that is so.

The 80hz recommendation comes from the fact that bass becomes non-directional at this frequency and 80hz and lower can best be reproduced by dedicated subwoofers which are designed to properly reproduce them. It's a question of optimization. Most mains (there are exceptions) struggle to accurately reproduce low bass without being down several db's, and their position is not always best for low bass reproduction. Obviously, anyone is free to do as they wish with their own systems. There's actually more technical reasons regarding the size of the bass wavelengths, but these are the main arguments as I understand them.


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post #3786 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Roosatemyroses View Post
Makes sense.

My L+R and surrounds all have 12" woofers. They go down to 40Hz so I set them to large.
I crossover my sub at it's minimum...50Hz.
My center has 2x8" 1X6.5" and it's set to small.

I hate sub-audible bass. My hearing tested with a swept oscillator through my system is 25Hz-16K
Wondering what the distortion readings are when the L+R and surrounds are asked to play from 120Hz down to 40Hz at reference level?

The undesirable sub-audible bass affect is due to the ears sensitivity at low frequencies and this is based on the equal loudness curve. Most people prefer to have a rising dB in the bass frequencies at the Main Listening Position (MLP). Shown below are various auto-REQ curves from some manufacturers.

Note that for the higher end Yamaha receivers, YPAO allows the owner to shape the target curve and majority of users should be aiming for the Harmon (JBL) curve as it's found to be the most pleasing overall. The target curve with a ski slope shape is what most people like.

The least pleasing (at least in terms of bass response) is the Audyssey curve which flattens the bass region and has that daft BBC dip in the 2kHz region.

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post #3787 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mmmmmmbacon View Post
Congrats on the purchase! You may want to check this thread...lots of good info and suggestions. https://www.avsforum.com/showthread.php?t=1649609
Best in ceiling speakers for Atmos?

Depending on your room and ceiling height, I think most will agree, in ceiling is preferred and provides an exceptional experience (especially .4 vs .2).

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The link you provided is dead. However, I'm not looking for in-ceiling speakers. I'm looking for Atmos enabled speakers/modules.
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post #3788 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Stanton View Post
Then we need more info (like what is your source?).
I tried different sources, but same result.

Tried with couple of blu ray movies(Mad Max and MI Rouge Nation) and streaming sources.

Max.
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post #3789 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by benso37 View Post
The link you provided is dead. However, I'm not looking for in-ceiling speakers. I'm looking for Atmos enabled speakers/modules.
Grabbed the wrong link...there is a Dolby atmos upward firing discussion you can check out with plenty of feedback and suggestions.

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post #3790 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Showmak View Post
The two main fronts are bi-amped, and here is the result of the YPAO measurements. Should I consider changing any measurement manually? If yes, which one?
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Turn your sub volume down AT THE SUB. -10 is too high.
Rerun YPAO until sub volume IN THE AVR is in the +-3 range.
Set all speakers to small.
Set xover IN THE AVR to 80.
Enjoy.

Btw biamping with your AVR provides no benefit. If you ever need those 2 extra channels abandon the biamp setup.

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post #3791 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Max_9 View Post
I tried different sources, but same result.

Tried with couple of blu ray movies(Mad Max and MI Rouge Nation) and streaming sources.

Max.
Maybe you're expecting too much.
No sound or little sound?
First 5.1 system?
Make sure they're connected to "surround" and not "back surround".
What DSP mode are you using?

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post #3792 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Max_9 View Post
Hi,

Need expert advise, new to Yamaha receiver. I calibrated with single position, which one is gives the better sound for EQ setting

Manual
YPAO: Front
YPAO: Natural
Through

Max
Whichever one sounds best to you.
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post #3793 of 10698 Old 01-14-2016, 10:49 PM
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The "OFFICIAL" Yamaha 1050/2050/3050 Owner's thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
The 80hz recommendation comes from the fact that bass becomes non-directional at this frequency and 80hz and lower can best be reproduced by dedicated subwoofers which are designed to properly reproduce them. It's a question of optimization. Most mains (there are exceptions) struggle to accurately reproduce low bass without being down several db's, and their position is not always best for low bass reproduction. Obviously, anyone is free to do as they wish with their own systems. There's actually more technical reasons regarding the size of the bass wavelengths, but these are the main arguments as I understand them.


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Agreed. People running their mains full range "because they can" are not necessarily doing themselves any favours. It can cause issues with power output (sub-bass reproduction requires a ton of power) and sub-bass frequency response (destructive interference, ringing, decay). Anyone doing this really needs to invest in a calibrated mic and REW to see what the effects are.

For example, it's not uncommon to have a response that looks like the yellow curve below with a massive 30dB difference between peaks and valleys... Caused by room nodes and nulls as well as destructive or constructive interference from mains with subs.

Click image for larger version

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post #3794 of 10698 Old 01-15-2016, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Turn your sub volume down AT THE SUB. -10 is too high.
Rerun YPAO until sub volume IN THE AVR is in the +-3 range.
Set all speakers to small.
Set xover IN THE AVR to 80.
Enjoy.

Btw biamping with your AVR provides no benefit. If you ever need those 2 extra channels abandon the biamp setup.
Hi Bond, thanks for your reply. In fact I followed the instructions in the manual where it says "Turn on the subwoofer and set the volume to half. If the crossover frequency is adjustable, set it to maximum".

Well, I set the vol to half and the frequency to LFE. The Low Pass filter is adjustable on the sub, 40Hz, 80Hz, 120Hz and LFE. Should I set it to 120Hz or LFE? Which one is Max?

Now should I re run the YPAO again or I can just adjust the settings manually?

With regards to the biamping, it's only a temporary use until I upgrade the system to 7.1.2. My current setup is 5.1 with the sub setting at the back of the room.

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post #3795 of 10698 Old 01-15-2016, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Showmak View Post
Hi Bond, thanks for your reply. In fact I followed the instructions in the manual where it says "Turn on the subwoofer and set the volume to half. If the crossover frequency is adjustable, set it to maximum".

Well, I set the vol to half and the frequency to LFE. The Low Pass filter is adjustable on the sub, 40Hz, 80Hz, 120Hz and LFE. Should I set it to 120Hz or LFE? Which one is Max?

Now should I re run the YPAO again or I can just adjust the settings manually?

With regards to the biamping, it's only a temporary use until I upgrade the system to 7.1.2. My current setup is 5.1 with the sub setting at the back of the room.
Manual instructions are a good starting point only.
Set sub xover to LFE. Turn the gain down.
Run YPAO repeatedly until sub volume in AVR reaches +-3.
Adjust manually to taste.
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post #3796 of 10698 Old 01-15-2016, 06:40 AM
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The "OFFICIAL" Yamaha 1050/2050/3050 Owner's thread.

@Bond 007

Ok after running the YPAO again here is the result,

Click image for larger version

Name:	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1452864992.085358.jpg
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ID:	1185618

Now the Sub level is within the recommended range. So if I want to increase the sub volume, should I increase it from the Gain knob on the sub or from the AVR?

When I see the YOAO compensating the levels of the CEN, FR, SL and SR channels by increasing the db, is there anything wrong with the speakers?


Sent from my iPhone6s+ using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Thats a new option for Yamaha. Been in Denons for years.
I have a 2030.
Actually, I think you'll find that your 2030 also has this setting. It's listed on page 118 of the owner's manual for the 3030/2030.

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post #3798 of 10698 Old 01-15-2016, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Showmak View Post
@Bond 007

Ok after running the YPAO again here is the result,

Attachment 1185618

Now the Sub level is within the recommended range. So if I want to increase the sub volume, should I increase it from the Gain knob on the sub or from the AVR?

When I see the YOAO compensating the levels of the CEN, FR, SL and SR channels by increasing the db, is there anything wrong with the speakers?


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The ideal way to increase the sub output after YPAO is to figure out roughly how much you want to increase it and then set the gain knob before you run YPAO so it trims the sub output down by that amount... Then adjust the trim (level) in the AVR to zero.

This takes some trial and error... E.g. Run YPAO, see what it sets the level to, adjust the gain knob, repeat until YPAO sets it to the ideal value.

For example, I like 6-8dB of added Sub output. So I tweak the gain on the sub until YPAO sets the sub level at -8. Then I dial it back to 0. This means the output level of the AVR (and thus input level to the sub) are optimized.

Adjusting the gain knob after YPAO runs is effectively the same thing, which is ok but you're now adjusting it by an unknown amount... But nothing wrong with doing it by ear. That's how I learned I liked 6-8dB added sub output.
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post #3799 of 10698 Old 01-15-2016, 08:10 AM
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Actually, I think you'll find that your 2030 also has this setting. It's listed on page 118 of the owner's manual for the 3030/2030.
Sort of. See previous page for this discussion.
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Originally Posted by Showmak View Post
@Bond 007

Ok after running the YPAO again here is the result,

Attachment 1185618

Now the Sub level is within the recommended range. So if I want to increase the sub volume, should I increase it from the Gain knob on the sub or from the AVR?

When I see the YOAO compensating the levels of the CEN, FR, SL and SR channels by increasing the db, is there anything wrong with the speakers?


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Looks fine. Nothing wrong.
Different people will tell you different things. I adjust the gain at the sub after YPAO.
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post #3801 of 10698 Old 01-15-2016, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Showmak View Post
When I see the YOAO compensating the levels of the CEN, FR, SL and SR channels by increasing the db, is there anything wrong with the speakers?
It's doing exactly what it's designed to do, correcting the levels for your specific room, that's why it's adjusting the speaker levels to get the correct sound stage.
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@Bond 007 @virtualrain @dianebrat

Thank you guys for your comments, explanations and advises. You guys keep this society knowledgeable. Highly appreciate you

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@Bond 007 @virtualrain @dianebrat

Thank you guys for your comments, explanations and advises. You guys keep this society knowledgeable. Highly appreciate you
Thank you.
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post #3804 of 10698 Old 01-15-2016, 11:40 AM
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Xover at 80hz for all spks is the way to go,THX invented that didn't they,I changed my 2050 to that and it sounds even better,ofcource that just my opinion.
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I cannot figure out how to play 5.1 content in 5.1, basically Straight on the 3050.

On my Yamaha RX-V1800, there was an option to turn on or off Extended Surround for 5.1 tracks in Straight mode. When I play Straight on the 3050, I still get extracted rear surrounds. Also, the option for adjusting rear surrounds and their delay when using a Cinema DSP mode is greyed out.

I have searched the manual and the menus. Am I missing something in the setup?
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post #3806 of 10698 Old 01-15-2016, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by dholmes54 View Post
Xover at 80hz for all spks is the way to go,THX invented that didn't they,I changed my 2050 to that and it sounds even better,ofcource that just my opinion.

Yes, there are good technical reasons for this. The problem comes when those who have invested heavily in "full range" speakers are told to set them to "small." Maybe the answer is to set them to small and 80hz for home theater and leave them as is for music. Conventional speakers (even large ones) can't really reproduce the LFE in many action movies, even most subs struggle. For example, "Lone Survivor " has about 2 minutes of 10 HZ sound, conventional speakers, including most subs, can't do it with any appreciable volume. I've blown out 2 15" subwoofer drivers with LFE content, so I can speak directly on this point. I'm awaiting delivery of a new Deep Sea Sound sub with a 24" driver and a 4K amp. The driver alone weighs 145 lbs! Maybe I won't blow this one out!


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post #3807 of 10698 Old 01-15-2016, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by virtualrain View Post
Agreed. People running their mains full range "because they can" are not necessarily doing themselves any favours. It can cause issues with power output (sub-bass reproduction requires a ton of power) and sub-bass frequency response (destructive interference, ringing, decay). Anyone doing this really needs to invest in a calibrated mic and REW to see what the effects are.

For example, it's not uncommon to have a response that looks like the yellow curve below with a massive 30dB difference between peaks and valleys... Caused by room nodes and nulls as well as destructive or constructive interference from mains with subs.

Attachment 1185482
I simply am going by what I prefer the sound of. When my main speakers have a sufficiently low frequency response (<30Hz is my usual decision point) I will set them to large. I haven't tried measuring any of this (too lazy I guess), just going with what I like.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, why would anyone want to buy large, full-range speakers if you should always cut them off below 80Hz? Maybe we shouldn't...

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post #3808 of 10698 Old 01-15-2016, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post
I simply am going by what I prefer the sound of. When my main speakers have a sufficiently low frequency response (<30Hz is my usual decision point) I will set them to large. I haven't tried measuring any of this (too lazy I guess), just going with what I like.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, why would anyone want to buy large, full-range speakers if you should always cut them off below 80Hz? Maybe we shouldn't...

Personal preferences will always rule in these cases. The only speakers I know of that I'd be comfortable running full range are the Definitive Technology towers with the built in subs and the Golden Ear Tritons, but even then, I'd want a pair of big subs helping out, but I push my subs hard: really enjoy the tactile internal-organ-rearranging sensation that high volume low bass can bring. Interesting you mentioned 30hz as your decision point: that's the exact frequency that causes my electrical box door to vibrate!


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post #3809 of 10698 Old 01-15-2016, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jpco View Post
I cannot figure out how to play 5.1 content in 5.1, basically Straight on the 3050.

On my Yamaha RX-V1800, there was an option to turn on or off Extended Surround for 5.1 tracks in Straight mode. When I play Straight on the 3050, I still get extracted rear surrounds. Also, the option for adjusting rear surrounds and their delay when using a Cinema DSP mode is greyed out.

I have searched the manual and the menus. Am I missing something in the setup?
Are you sure it's a 5.1 track? If so, couldn't you go into configuration and tell the AVR you do not have rears?

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post #3810 of 10698 Old 01-15-2016, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post
I simply am going by what I prefer the sound of. When my main speakers have a sufficiently low frequency response (<30Hz is my usual decision point) I will set them to large. I haven't tried measuring any of this (too lazy I guess), just going with what I like.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, why would anyone want to buy large, full-range speakers if you should always cut them off below 80Hz? Maybe we shouldn't...
Just a wild guess,
But are you running expensive L/R towers with large drivers
Perhaps powered by expensive separate amplifiers capable of 200w/ch ???

My L/R speakers are relatively cheap 10 y/o Mission M34i's with a pair of 6.5" drivers ...about $300 (used)
I don't have dedicated separate amplifiers to drive them so I (like many other here) have to rely on the on-board amps
built into the AVR, to power those speakers.

I prefer the tower design for my L/R speakers to get the tweeters to ear level,
(as opposed to sticking a bookshelf speaker on a less visually appealing 3' high spindle)

When the 3050 is driving 7 or 9 channels simultaneously
its not putting out 150w/ch anymore, it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 40w/ch, maybe 50w at best,

Why would I choose to send <80Hz to a pair of $300 towers with 6.5" drivers
When I have several 400w + dedicated subs with 12"/15" drivers placed around the room,
with their own built-in amplifiers that are more than capable of playing <80Hz at much higher SPL
and can be placed anywhere to correct room nulls/peaks as opposed to just front L/R ??

Powered Subs = Less stress on the speakers, less stress on the AVR = no brainer.

Even if I had a set of expensive full range towers, and only a single 12" 400 watt sub
...that sub would likely outperform the towers at <80Hz if those "Large" speakers had to rely on the AVR
for power while still driving all the other 7 channels.

IMHO, setting Front Speakers to Large would require a really good speaker, preferably with its own amp,
and it would be utilized for more of a 50/50 mix of movies and music (preferably 2 ch music with a turntable).

If your speakers can play <80Hz substantially better than your sub,
you have a very good speakers or a real *****ty under-powered sub (maybe both)

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