The "OFFICIAL" Yamaha 1050/2050/3050 Owner's thread. - Page 199 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5941 of 10588 Old 03-30-2016, 08:06 PM
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Hi All,

My update is complete and I have been messing around listening to my DTS:X Demo Disc, Ex Machina, Jupiter Ascending and Spectre for testing.

I have been reading everyone's posts all day and just got caught up with the latest. I want to ask for clarification so I am using the receiver properly.

For Dolby Atmos I need to set it to Surround as it won't work in Neutral:X.

For DTS:X I need to set it to Neutral:X as I couldn't get it to work in any other way.

For all other codecs I should be in Neutral:X as it outputs all the other formats and enhances them. (The helicopter scene in Spectre is amazing.)

Do I have it correct?

Thanks to everyone for all their contributions and knowledge.

Endurance Theatre
VIZIO M801i-A3 80-Inch | Sony BDP-S5500 | Yamaha RX-A2050 | Roku Ultra
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post #5942 of 10588 Old 03-30-2016, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
I think you misunderstand which codec is a format and which one is an upmixer

DTS:X is a native pure mix with encoded height objects
Atmos is a native pure mix with encoded height objects

You cannot "upmix" anything to either format

The upmix versions of each are Neural X and Dolby Surround (DSU)
that can be applied ONLY to non native DTS:X or Dolby Atmos tracks
that are ALREADY playing all speakers available.

There is absolutely nothing to gain even if you could apply Neural X or DSU to a native DTS:X/Atmos track
....which is why it is not even possible.

The Neural X and Dolby Surround "upmixers" are only intended to expand:
DTS-HD, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, Dolby Digital, and linear PCM to use the extra Height speakers
in a home audio setup with 5.1.2, 5.1.4, 7.1.2 or 7.1.4 speaker configuration.

They (upmixers) simply don't work on material that already HAS height channel information, (DTS:X/Atmos)

Which is why I said: "There would be ZERO reason for anyone to want to apply DSU or Neural:X
to a native DTS:X OR Atmos sound track."

Don't make me draw a picture
There's absolutely no reason to draw me a picture. I fully understand the difference between the "immersive" codecs and the role of upmixers in legacy 7.1 & 5.1 tracks. I also didn't intend to suggest about applying the upmixers (DSU & Neural:X) to Atmos/DTS:X tracks. I was only trying to understand if encoded object metadata (present in bitstream) was identical in both competing codecs or whether the metadata encoding was proprietary to Dolby and DTS. I guess my earlier posts were not optimally worded.........
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post #5943 of 10588 Old 03-30-2016, 08:13 PM
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This is AWESOME! Try chapter 11 & 12 on Crimson Peak for some reference material.
As noted before.DTS:X is at 4 decibels lower than Atmos as confirmed by the Yamaha receiver.

Last edited by urbeenjammin; 03-30-2016 at 08:28 PM.
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post #5944 of 10588 Old 03-30-2016, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceMind View Post
Hi All,

My update is complete and I have been messing around listening to my DTS:X Demo Disc, Ex Machina, Jupiter Ascending and Spectre for testing.

I have been reading everyone's posts all day and just got caught up with the latest. I want to ask for clarification so I am using the receiver properly.

For Dolby Atmos I need to set it to Surround as it won't work in Neutral:X.

For DTS:X I need to set it to Neutral:X as I couldn't get it to work in any other way.

For all other codecs I should be in Neutral:X as it outputs all the other formats and enhances them. (The helicopter scene in Spectre is amazing.)

Do I have it correct?

Thanks to everyone for all their contributions and knowledge.
The on screen display on the receiver will confirm your statements.When you see "Dolby Atmos and DTS:X" display disappear then you know it's on the wrong mode.Very simple.
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post #5945 of 10588 Old 03-30-2016, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
So I decided to go for it and download the DTS:X update.

My main drive was to find out if with the DTS:X 11ch call out clip how the overhead speakers would work. It has been documented that DTS:X will use some form of re-mapping to phantom image the front and rear heights. DTS thinks that the "heights" are at 45 degree and that "overhead" is at 60 degrees. When you have your system set at OVERHEAD the height call outs will emit from both the front left and right and the actual overhead speakers at the same time. It's trying to phantom image this sound at 45 degrees as it thinks your height speakers are really at 60 degrees. When set to HEIGHT only those height speakers will emit the height content in the call out.

Hope that makes sense.

When I play Atmos test tones for the heights, I get a reverse effect. When set to HEIGHT I get sound want to bleed front and back to better phantom image above you because the decoder thinks that the speakers have a super wide angle gap than if one were to use OVERHEAD setting.

So if you want 'discrete' height effects properly with DTS:X content, you must use the HEIGHT layout selection.

In my experience with my Yamaha 3050 and 5100 is that for Atmos you want to use OVERHEAD layout selection for the more 'discrete' sound.

Hopefully that makes sense.

I don't have a demo disc but maybe I should try to get a hold of one
I just used the DTS:X 11 channel call-out from the Last Witch Hunter
There was no bleeding at all, my 4 height speakers are all high wall mounted bookshelf units
angled down toward my MLP, front angle is around 30º, rear around 45º.

I did try moving my speakers around my open ceiling several times (unfinished open TJI joists above)
when I was testing various Atmos configurations and I liked the Front Height, Rear Height set up best.

So it looks like that's where it works best with DTS:X too,
Now I can finally finish off my ceiling...well right after I get a new 30' 18Ghz HDMI cable installed
...4K JVC upgrade is next on the list and the old 1.3 HDMI probably won't work anymore.

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post #5946 of 10588 Old 03-30-2016, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceMind View Post
Hi All,

My update is complete and I have been messing around listening to my DTS:X Demo Disc, Ex Machina, Jupiter Ascending and Spectre for testing.

I have been reading everyone's posts all day and just got caught up with the latest. I want to ask for clarification so I am using the receiver properly.

For Dolby Atmos I need to set it to Surround as it won't work in Neutral:X.

For DTS:X I need to set it to Neutral:X as I couldn't get it to work in any other way.

For all other codecs I should be in Neutral:X as it outputs all the other formats and enhances them. (The helicopter scene in Spectre is amazing.)

Do I have it correct?

Thanks to everyone for all their contributions and knowledge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbeenjammin View Post
The on screen display on the receiver will confirm your statements.When you see "Dolby Atmos and DTS:X" display disappear then you know it's on the wrong mode.Very simple.
I was looking for some additional feedback by the nice people here as well but thank you.

Can anyone else confirm please? Many thanks.

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post #5947 of 10588 Old 03-30-2016, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
Spectre 2.35 scope image on my 120" screen...
]
Thx buddy....I appreciate the screen shot. Thats perfect and what I was hoping for. The more I research the Yamaha 3050...the better and better it keeps looking.
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post #5948 of 10588 Old 03-30-2016, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceMind View Post
Hi All,

My update is complete and I have been messing around listening to my DTS:X Demo Disc, Ex Machina, Jupiter Ascending and Spectre for testing.

I have been reading everyone's posts all day and just got caught up with the latest. I want to ask for clarification so I am using the receiver properly.

For Dolby Atmos I need to set it to Surround as it won't work in Neutral:X.

For DTS:X I need to set it to Neutral:X as I couldn't get it to work in any other way.

For all other codecs I should be in Neutral:X as it outputs all the other formats and enhances them. (The helicopter scene in Spectre is amazing.)

Do I have it correct?

Thanks to everyone for all their contributions and knowledge.
For a Dolby Atmos disc you can just use "Straight" (no decoder required at all)
For a DTS:X disc you can also use "Straight" (again, no decoder required at all)

For a disc without DTS:X or Dolby Atmos track
...IOW if you only have a DTS-HD, Dolby TrueHD or PCM track to choose from on your Bluray
or DTS or Dolby Digital on a DVD ...Then you can upmix using either Neural X or Dolby Surround.

It's okay to have the decoders turned on even if you have a DTS:X or Dolby Atmos disc,
....the Yamaha just won't use the upmixers because they are not needed
(the native DTS:X/Atmos tracks already have height/object information)

I don't know why so many have troubles getting that
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post #5949 of 10588 Old 03-30-2016, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
That would be a real bastardized setup,
The best way currently to accomplish 7.2.6 Scatmos on a budget is with two additional older PLIIx capable AVR's

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...l#post41254721


More in this thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...ive-audio.html

Please confirm that this set-up won't work with Dolby PLII receivers, but requires PLIIX. Thanks, again!
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post #5950 of 10588 Old 03-30-2016, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docrog View Post
Please confirm that this set-up won't work with Dolby PLII receivers, but requires PLIIX. Thanks, again!
Sorry, I haven't set mine up for 7.4.6 yet, I've got all 3 AVR's (PLIIx whether required or not)
and enough matched speakers required to do the job...but still just have 7.4.4 running at the moment.

You really should direct your inquires to those in the thread that have actually done it
...That's why I gave you the link

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post #5951 of 10588 Old 03-30-2016, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Movie78 View Post
Neural X felt like sound is movie from one end to another
DSU = IMMERSIVE

But it was Very very close.
thanks.
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post #5952 of 10588 Old 03-30-2016, 09:34 PM
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So after reading the last 5 pages or so, it seems that if you are like me, and using the PS4 as your blu-ray player, you need to change back and forth between bitstream and PCM depending on whether you are going to watch a film in Atmos or DTS:X?

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post #5953 of 10588 Old 03-30-2016, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by AbbyDaddy View Post
So after reading the last 5 pages or so, it seems that if you are like me, and using the PS4 as your blu-ray player, you need to change back and forth between bitstream and PCM depending on whether you are going to watch a film in Atmos or DTS:X?
What?

I can Bitstream DTS:X or Dolby Atmos from my PS4,
No different than my Sony BDP S5100 bluray player

Yamaha RX-A3050 in "Straight" mode, no decoder required

The Last Witch Hunter







Mad Max Fury Road





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post #5954 of 10588 Old 03-30-2016, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docrog View Post
I was only trying to understand if encoded object metadata (present in bitstream) was identical in both competing codecs or whether the metadata encoding was proprietary to Dolby and DTS.
Their object encoding and decoding (rendering) are proprietary and incompatible. For the theatrical versions, Atmos renders to the room using Cartesian coordinates (x,y,z) while DTS:X renders objects around a listener sweet spot using polar coordinates (elevation angle & azimuth angle). The home versions are likely similar.

Sanjay
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post #5955 of 10588 Old 03-30-2016, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
What?

I can Bitstream DTS:X or Dolby Atmos from my PS4,
No different than my Sony BDP S5100 bluray player

Yamaha RX-A3050 in "Straight" mode, no decoder required

The Last Witch Hunter







Mad Max Fury Road







Good to know. I had to switch something to get it to show Atmos, but I can't remember now what exactly. I'll play with it again and check. So you can rename the inputs on the 3050? Did not know that either... Time to re-read the manual again. Much appreciated.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
The upmix versions of each are Neural X and Dolby Surround (DSU)
that can be applied ONLY to non native DTS:X or Dolby Atmos tracks
(DTS:X and Dolby Atmos are ALREADY playing all speakers available)

There is absolutely nothing to gain even if you could apply
Neural X or DSU to a native DTS:X/Atmos track
....which is why it is not even possible.
DTS:X tracks are a combination of channels and objects. The front portion of the Neural:X algorithm, which extracts a centre output from 2 channels, can be applied to the channel part of a DTS:X track. So if you had a DTS:X track that was 7.1 channels plus objects, Neural:X upmixing could be used to extract a centre output between the fronts and sides in order to feed the wides in a 9.1.2 layout. Any objects in the track would then be layered on top of the upmixed result.

Sanjay
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post #5957 of 10588 Old 03-30-2016, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbyDaddy View Post
Good to know. I had to switch something to get it to show Atmos, but I can't remember now what exactly. I'll play with it again and check. So you can rename the inputs on the 3050? Did not know that either... Time to re-read the manual again. Much appreciated.
Use the AV Controller App to rename and change the icons for each input,
I would lose my mind trying to remember my
Cable HDTV PVR, PS4, XBOX1, BD Player, HD DVD, PS3 and XBOX 360
...and soon to be 4K UHD player

Did you see the youtube video for the controller app features?
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post #5958 of 10588 Old 03-30-2016, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
Use the AV Controller App to rename and change the icons for each input,
I would lose my mind trying to remember my
Cable HDTV PVR, PS4, XBOX1, BD Player, HD DVD, PS3 and XBOX 360
...and soon to be 4K UHD player

Did you see the youtube video for the controller app features?

I haven't seen the video, but I have the app on my phone and tablet, though for some reason, only my phone "sees" the AVR, even though everything is on same network. I'll Google it. I guess I have not really dove into everything that this beast can do...

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post #5959 of 10588 Old 03-30-2016, 10:56 PM
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I updated today. It went smoothly. The only problem I ran into was the lip sync seemed to be off after I updated. I reran YPAO. Still didn't help. I then went into the setup menu and changed the lip sync setting to manual, which was set to 0. On auto, it had set itself to a 124ms delay. Prior to today, I never even opened the lip sync setting, as it had always been correct. Everything sounds good now. I don't have any DTS X discs, but I did try neural x out on a few DTS master discs, but honestly, I couldn't tell that much difference between that and DSU.
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post #5960 of 10588 Old 03-31-2016, 12:02 AM
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DSU an Neural-X are useless VS the Yamaha's DSP (adventure, in my case)
And with DSP, you can still use YPAO volume/Adaptative DRC/Enhacer/Extra bass/Volume lift/
There is no match.
I still dont understand why you buy a Yamaha AV receiver and don't use his most usefull feature?

Can someone enlighten me?
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post #5961 of 10588 Old 03-31-2016, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by showmak View Post
And here is with DTS:X track...

In Bitstream



In LPCM



Hope that helps...


Sent from my iPhone6s+ using Tapatalk
@Scott Simonian

I noticed the (+ 1 Object) when I tried the Divergent from 2015 DTS Demo disc, but I didn't know what it's even I don't know why I didn't try to ask about it, maybe I was to excited.

Anyhow, thanks for your clarification.

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Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
I was going to wait til the weekend, but you guys were killing me!

Download just finished,

Passed the DTS:X speaker call out on The Last Witch Hunter
(Sony BDP S5100 bluray player) Bitstream (mix audio turned OFF)

DTS:X in 7.4.4 like a BOSS!
Hi all, I have setup as 7.2.4 and been listing to Atmos for the past few months without any problems using STRAIGHT. Today I updated the firmware so I can obtain DTS:X and finally watch The Last Witch Hunter.

But I'm getting the front heights sound from main fronts, and rear heights from back surrounds, I confirmed this by listening to the sound test clip that came with The Last Witch Hunter. Why is that happening?

Listening to Atmos material from the same bluray player is fine.
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post #5963 of 10588 Old 03-31-2016, 01:05 AM
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When you get to the decoder page on screen,
it should have a little wrench over the page 1/2 with a "^" symbol in the far right lower corner
...push up on the virtual remote cursor on your ipad to open the next settings page with all the options
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbromley View Post
Thanks! That works well. I was hoping to select the surround decoder type (Dolby...Neo...) from within the iPad app, similar to the way you can adjust the DSP parameters on some of the Yamaha-specific DSP options. No TV needed for them, it's all there in the iPad app.
I'm not shure if i got this right. There is an ">" icon in the iPad app for setting the "Surround Decoder"? For "Surround Decoder" i have no such icon in the android app?! (same as for "Straight")

I have to setup the "Surround Decoder" via TV. All other detailed DSP settings can be set by the AV Controler app on a screen like that (or similar) (android app):



edit: something went wrong with the pictures, sorry
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Last edited by mukes; 03-31-2016 at 01:16 AM.
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post #5964 of 10588 Old 03-31-2016, 01:36 AM
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Well, after 1 day of testing this new DTS:X update, this is my first impression:

- Neural:X sounds fuller and more movie like. It does a better job placing objects in the ceiling.
- DSU worked better with some 2ch files. Watched some TV programs from TV app with Dolby 2.0, and DSU placed the dialog in the center as it should. DSU sounded more crisp than Neural:X (dialog), but Neural:X did better with creating an immersive track (more use of surround speakers). Unfortunately Neural:X had some dialog bleed from time to time, DSU did not.

- Native DTS:X is superior!
- Native Atmos is superior!

Next up is to test the HDR HDMI 2.0a (waiting for UHD release here in scandinavia (mid april)

All in all, great update, but I wish Yamaha had implemented an AUTO DETECT OBJECT AUDIO feature, that would overdrive all settings when a ATMOS or DTS:X soundtrack was played.
I think I will leave my receiver on Neural:X and "switch" to straight when using ATMOS. Would still want an Auto feature for this.

Also nice to see DSU and Neural:X working on both Dolby and DTS tracks!
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YAMAHA RX-A3050 7.1.4 ATMOS - DTS:X | Klipsch Referance RF82II - RC62II - RS52II - RS41II - RP-140SA | SVS PB-2000 | LG OLED E6 65"
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post #5965 of 10588 Old 03-31-2016, 01:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mukes View Post
I'm not shure if i got this right. There is an ">" icon in the iPad app for setting the "Surround Decoder"? For "Surround Decoder" i have no such icon in the android app?! (same as for "Straight")

I have to setup the "Surround Decoder" via TV. All other detailed DSP settings can be set by the AV Controler app on a screen like that (or similar) (android app):
I just double checked by myself. There is no such option (">") for "Surround Decode" in neither Apple nor Android.

You have to setup/ choose the Upmixer on the TV screen.

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post #5966 of 10588 Old 03-31-2016, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by HDX View Post
where do i find this at, it alludes me
The Owner's manuals are available on Yamaha.com.
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post #5967 of 10588 Old 03-31-2016, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by julianb View Post
Well, after 1 day of testing this new DTS:X update, this is my first impression:

- Neural:X sounds fuller and more movie like. It does a better job placing objects in the ceiling.
- DSU worked better with some 2ch files. Watched some TV programs from TV app with Dolby 2.0, and DSU placed the dialog in the center as it should. DSU sounded more crisp than Neural:X (dialog), but Neural:X did better with creating an immersive track (more use of surround speakers). Unfortunately Neural:X had some dialog bleed from time to time, DSU did not.

- Native DTS:X is superior!
- Native Atmos is superior!

Next up is to test the HDR HDMI 2.0a (waiting for UHD release here in scandinavia (mid april)

All in all, great update, but I wish Yamaha had implemented an AUTO DETECT OBJECT AUDIO feature, that would overdrive all settings when a ATMOS or DTS:X soundtrack was played.
I think I will leave my receiver on Neural:X and "switch" to straight when using ATMOS. Would still want an Auto feature for this.

Also nice to see DSU and Neural:X working on both Dolby and DTS tracks!
I am planning on the same, N/X for regular and straight for DTS X and Atmos encoded.
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post #5968 of 10588 Old 03-31-2016, 04:24 AM
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Is it possible to save scenes with different Surround Decoders?

ie:
- Scene 1 with Dolby Surround
- Scene 2 with Neural:X
- Scene 3 with Dolby ProLogic IIx

I ask because with my older RX-V3073, it cannot do this. It simply loads the last used "Surround Decoder" whether it be ProLogic IIx Music or ProLogic IIx Movie etc.

This is bad because the Scenes appear to save almost every other conceivable parameter on the unit except Surround Decoder 'type'. ie I can't have a Scene saved for music listening which recalls PLIIX Music, and another Scene for movie watching which recalls PLIIX Movie etc.

Seems like a major oversight on the parameters able to be stored/recalled.

Craig.

Yamaha RX-A3060 7.1.4 Receiver [+Sony Power Amp for Rear Height] / Sony KD-65Z9D / JVC HD1 DILA Projector / 90" screen / OPPO UDP-203 UHD blu-ray / Apple TV 4K
Ascension Summoner 3-way Front Speakers / Ascension 3-way Centre Speaker / Peachtree D5 Surrounds / Yamaha NS-555 3-Way Rear Speakers / ERA D4 x 4 Height Speakers / Rythmik Audio F15HP Sub
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post #5969 of 10588 Old 03-31-2016, 04:41 AM
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Very interesting ^^^


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Sony BRAVIA XBR55HX929, Yamaha Aventage RX-A3050, Front Mains: Jamo C109, Surrounds: Jamo C103, FH/RH: Jamo C93, Center: Jamo C10 CEN and Subwoofer: Jamo J112 SUB (5.1.4)
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post #5970 of 10588 Old 03-31-2016, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Movie78 View Post
NEURAL X James Bond Spectre Helicopter scene is Bananas.

This is the update that I was waiting for...
I really enjoyed many sources last night using NEURAL X. Was watching some Netflix and some DirecTv movies I had DVR'd. Very happy with the update and the new options.
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