The "Official" Yamaha CX-A5100 AVP Owners thread - Page 104 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3091 of 4417 Old 03-07-2017, 08:15 PM
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thanks very much guys, not sure how i missed the section in the manual (pages 131/132), nonetheless it's great to hear you haven't experienced any issues using passing through (direct)... on a side note, have either of you played around with the video processing? is it terrible? on par with what tvs and projectors offer? would be great if it offered non-linear stretch a la lumagen altho i know most folks seem to hate it...
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post #3092 of 4417 Old 03-07-2017, 10:08 PM
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I use the processing one for daytime and one for nite works well but putting 4k signal in disables the processing wish it didn't since Netflix 4k is a bit dark
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post #3093 of 4417 Old 03-08-2017, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
All but two the two rear surrounds are going through the XPA7. I just flipped the POS and NEG of two speakers and now those two are detected by ypao as in phase. I placed a call to Emotiva and he is saying it is YPAO and if every speaker is saying it's out of phase then in reality they are all in the same phase. Which I totally understand. It still doesn't answer the question that with my previous amp my speakers were all detected as in phase except for my two surrounds which were always detected as out of phase (even though they are wired correctly).

Is there a definitive test to check the true phase of a speaker (correct wiring)?
A phase test reports eventual differently depending on the algorithm and the test signal used.
A simple test for a passive speaker is to use a 1.5VDC battery as mentioned before and touching the corresponding speaker terminals together (+/-) for a split second to observe, if the cone of the bass driver moves outwards. If it does, your speaker are connected "in phase", if it moves inward, your speaker is probably connected out of phase. If it doesn't move at all you got a connection problem .
I have test equipment using different methods for phase testing depending on the frequency used. Those measuring in the midband sometimes give different results to those measuring at lower frequencies (< 200 Hz). On some speakers the mid band driver might be connected out of phase on purpose to smooth the overall frequency response or adjusting dispersion. This might then contribute to those "dubios" measurement results although the speaker as a whole is wired "in phase".

If unsure, check speaker wiring on both sides of the cable and correct if needed. Its "very rare" that a manufacturing fault has the phase reversed by accident inside the speaker. More often the wiring between speaker and AVR/amp has been accidentally screwed up especially at the rear of an AVR / amp sitting tucked away inside a cabinet
I would suggest, that everything is fine...

Last edited by gurkey; 03-08-2017 at 09:08 AM.
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post #3094 of 4417 Old 03-08-2017, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
All but two the two rear surrounds are going through the XPA7. I just flipped the POS and NEG of two speakers and now those two are detected by ypao as in phase. I placed a call to Emotiva and he is saying it is YPAO and if every speaker is saying it's out of phase then in reality they are all in the same phase. Which I totally understand. It still doesn't answer the question that with my previous amp my speakers were all detected as in phase except for my two surrounds which were always detected as out of phase (even though they are wired correctly).

Is there a definitive test to check the true phase of a speaker (correct wiring)?
A simple test that I've done in the past is to take a AA battery and touch the speaker wires to the battery posts and observe which direction the speaker cone moves. If I remember correctly, when connecting the positive and negative leads of the speaker to the + and - terminals of the battery that the cone should move out (away from its frame/magnet).

It still sounds to me like the XPA7 may be inverting the phase of the incoming signal on its way out.

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post #3095 of 4417 Old 03-08-2017, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post
Those measuring in the midband sometimes give different results to those measuring at lower frequencies (< 200 Hz). On some speakers the mid band driver might be connected out of phase on purpose to smooth the overall frquency response or adjusting dispersion. This might then contribute to those "dubios" measurement results although the speaker as a whole is wired "in phase".
In general, speakers using 12 dB/Octave (many) crossovers will wire the HF driver out of phase with the bass driver. If you do not do this there will be a "suck out" (large dip) in the crossover region.
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post #3096 of 4417 Old 03-08-2017, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post
It still sounds to me like the XPA7 may be inverting the phase of the incoming signal on its way out.
I never have seen a commercial audio amp inverting the phase of the signal by design (if not setup this way by the owner).
DIY amp builts sometimes might have this problem due to missing adherence to the schematics.
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post #3097 of 4417 Old 03-08-2017, 01:10 PM
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That was what I was thinking but, I am 99% sure that the amp is not inverting the signal and I am 100% sure the wiring is correct. So the only thing it could be is YPAO misreading the speaker phase which I know happens often. I guess I'm best off to ignore the out of phase warning. I checked my wiring and that is what the warning is there for, If wiring is correct just ignore the warning and it has no effect on the YPAO calibration.
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post #3098 of 4417 Old 03-08-2017, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
In general, speakers using 12 dB/Octave (many) crossovers will wire the HF driver out of phase with the bass driver. If you do not do this there will be a "suck out" (large dip) in the crossover region.
That may be the case. I can ask the designer.

@mtg90 Are the DIYSG Fusion F15's crossovers wired out of phase with the HF driver? Asking because YPAO is detecting all of my speakers as "out of phase".
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post #3099 of 4417 Old 03-08-2017, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
That was what I was thinking but, I am 99% sure that the amp is not inverting the signal and I am 100% sure the wiring is correct. So the only thing it could be is YPAO misreading the speaker phase which I know happens often. I guess I'm best off to ignore the out of phase warning. I checked my wiring and that is what the warning is there for, If wiring is correct just ignore the warning and it has no effect on the YPAO calibration.
I'm inclined to agree with you but why did your out of phase warnings only show up when you switched amps? It seems that swapping the amps was the what caused it to occur.

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post #3100 of 4417 Old 03-08-2017, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post
I'm inclined to agree with you but why did your out of phase warnings only show up when you switched amps? It seems that swapping the amps was the what caused it to occur.
That's why i'm only 99% sure it's not the amp. It's seems odd. I don't understand why changing amplifiers would cause the speakers to be detected as out of phase when the previous amplifier didn't. Nothing else has changed in my room except for the addition of ATMOS speakers in ceiling. Nothing else was rearranged.

I can't imagine that the XPA7 has reversed polarity on all 7 channels but I have seen weirder things. The only other thing I could try is using RCA instead of XLR's and see if that makes a difference. It shouldn't but maybe they do the pin out different or did something wrong there. I soldered my XLR so the cables pin out 1(shield) 2(+/hot) 3(-/low) that is how the 5100 says it is as well. Which is how all equipment I have seen here in US pin out.

I'm going to do a little more investigating.
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post #3101 of 4417 Old 03-09-2017, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
That's why i'm only 99% sure it's not the amp. It's seems odd. I don't understand why changing amplifiers would cause the speakers to be detected as out of phase when the previous amplifier didn't. Nothing else has changed in my room except for the addition of ATMOS speakers in ceiling. Nothing else was rearranged.

I can't imagine that the XPA7 has reversed polarity on all 7 channels but I have seen weirder things. The only other thing I could try is using RCA instead of XLR's and see if that makes a difference. It shouldn't but maybe they do the pin out different or did something wrong there. I soldered my XLR so the cables pin out 1(shield) 2(+/hot) 3(-/low) that is how the 5100 says it is as well. Which is how all equipment I have seen here in US pin out.

I'm going to do a little more investigating.
Yeah, I'd try cable swapping. I don't have a lot of experience with XLR cables...just bought mine from Monoprice. Never tried assembling them.

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post #3102 of 4417 Old 03-09-2017, 10:41 AM
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Definitely swap in an rca for one channel and see what happens since rca and xlr are active simultaneously lm now using some 75 cent xlr to rca adapters with my Audioquest king cobra rca and have zero noise now go figure... Only other way is oscilloscope
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post #3103 of 4417 Old 03-09-2017, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
That's why i'm only 99% sure it's not the amp. It's seems odd. I don't understand why changing amplifiers would cause the speakers to be detected as out of phase when the previous amplifier didn't. Nothing else has changed in my room except for the addition of ATMOS speakers in ceiling. Nothing else was rearranged.

I can't imagine that the XPA7 has reversed polarity on all 7 channels but I have seen weirder things. The only other thing I could try is using RCA instead of XLR's and see if that makes a difference. It shouldn't but maybe they do the pin out different or did something wrong there. I soldered my XLR so the cables pin out 1(shield) 2(+/hot) 3(-/low) that is how the 5100 says it is as well. Which is how all equipment I have seen here in US pin out.

I'm going to do a little more investigating.
Amps interact with the speakers they are connected to because of their different layout / design and speaker impedance.
This sometimes might change their behavior slightly and might bring the relevant measure just outside a pre-determined window of tolerance thus providing a different result (go / no go).
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post #3104 of 4417 Old 03-10-2017, 04:12 PM
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Having a similar problem as I have a 7.1.4 system and under the information audio output page, I only have a 7.1 configuration. The ceiling atmos channels are not indicated.
Thank you. Something is going with this latest 2.04... earlier I sent an email to Yamaha via their support web site to inquire about this. We'll see what they come back with though I am not sure how responsive they are.






Anyone ever get any information about this seemingly small bug in firmware 2.04?


I called and sent an email to Yamaha and have gotten no where as to if it is a bug and if they are aware of it. The supposed tech on the phone just said he wasn't aware of any issues. He didn't say he would look into it, or use an actual cx-5100 to see the issue, or goggle this forum or anything. He just said he wasn't aware of any issues and that was it.


For five grand for the pre and amp you would think they would actually care for a customer.


I'm guessing the next firmware update will resolve the issue. And as the channels are displayed properly on the front of the unit and I can hear the channels actually working, I guess its a not a big deal.


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post #3105 of 4417 Old 03-10-2017, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by nicholas64z View Post
Having a similar problem as I have a 7.1.4 system and under the information audio output page, I only have a 7.1 configuration. The ceiling atmos channels are not indicated.
Thank you. Something is going with this latest 2.04... earlier I sent an email to Yamaha via their support web site to inquire about this. We'll see what they come back with though I am not sure how responsive they are.






Anyone ever get any information about this seemingly small bug in firmware 2.04?


I called and sent an email to Yamaha and have gotten no where as to if it is a bug and if they are aware of it. The supposed tech on the phone just said he wasn't aware of any issues. He didn't say he would look into it, or use an actual cx-5100 to see the issue, or goggle this forum or anything. He just said he wasn't aware of any issues and that was it.


For five grand for the pre and amp you would think they would actually care for a customer.


I'm guessing the next firmware update will resolve the issue. And as the channels are displayed properly on the front of the unit and I can hear the channels actually working, I guess its a not a big deal.


nicholas
They have acknowledged it and said it will be fixed in the next update.

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They have acknowledged it and said it will be fixed in the next update.
Thank you for the update.


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post #3107 of 4417 Old 03-10-2017, 06:42 PM
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Hi all,

I'm looking to you guys for some buying advice.

I'm building a new home, and with it a new HT room. I have all my gear now except the processor. Having owned only Yamaha receivers in the past, I was looking to follow that trend, however step up to the 5100 as the processor. After research, I decided not to get the matching amp and instead go for a couple of dedicated higher end power amps from a local manufacturer here in Australia, the Elektra HD2 power amps.

Some other forum folk have also suggested I look at the Marantz AV Processor lines.

Having only used Yamaha, I don't really know the 'sound difference' between the two manufacturers.

Anyone here have any anecdotal experience with both brands? Have you heard both processors? Which was better in your opinion? What specifically was better?

I appreciate that YPAO doesn't extend past 31Hz for bass EQ which is a small sticking point, especially compared to Audissey on Marantz.

I also have this suspicion that the 5100 will be due for an update soon, given it was first release in 2015. Has anyone heard of an impending refresh to this unit?

I appreciate any advice and recommendations.

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post #3108 of 4417 Old 03-11-2017, 05:20 AM
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No info yet. If there was new release it would be around September.
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post #3109 of 4417 Old 03-11-2017, 08:25 AM
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I appreciate that YPAO doesn't extend past 31Hz for bass EQ which is a small sticking point, especially compared to Audissey on Marantz.
Goes much lower with the last update, there are several post in this thread that covers this.
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post #3110 of 4417 Old 03-11-2017, 04:11 PM
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Goes much lower with the last update, there are several post in this thread that covers this.
Oh really? Interesting. I'll take a read back through thanks!
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post #3111 of 4417 Old 03-11-2017, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by scott_richardson View Post
Oh really? Interesting. I'll take a read back through thanks!
From Yamaha USA:

Quote:
CX-A5100 Firmware Update Version 2.04

Yamaha is pleased to offer the following firmware update to ensure the best possible performance and latest features for your AV pre-amplifier.

This firmware includes
1, Add New CINEMA DSP Sound program “ENHANCED”
2, Support for Manual setup of less than 32Hz with parametric EQ (15.6Hz or more)
3, Other operation improvement
NOTE: I believe the lower PEQ is manual only, YPAO may stop at 32Hz. I do everything in manual so someone else will have to answer about YPAO.
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Dumb Question...

during the tone test should identical speakers from the same manufacturer sound the same in terms of "pitch", assuming they are roughly set to the same levels? or is the "pitch" intentionally different in order to more clearly differentiate between the speakers being tested? in my case speakers sound quite different as the tone test makes it way around the room, iirc it's always the left having a different "pitch" than the right.... hope this makes sense... also, fwiw, all of the speakers are correctly phased according to ypao optimization...

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post #3113 of 4417 Old 03-13-2017, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
Goes much lower with the last update, there are several post in this thread that covers this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

NOTE: I believe the lower PEQ is manual only, YPAO may stop at 32Hz. I do everything in manual so someone else will have to answer about YPAO.
The YPAO mic is limited to only 31Hz. Rather in order to take advantage of the new Manual EQ capability (15Hz) you would need to purchase a better quality mic (eg. UMIK-1 or UMM-6) as well as use REW software to create the manual curve below 31Hz.
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during the tone test should identical speakers from the same manufacturer sound the same in terms of "pitch", assuming they are roughly set to the same levels? or is the "pitch" intentionally different in order to more clearly differentiate between the speakers being tested? in my case speakers sound quite different as the tone test makes it way around the room, iirc it's always the left having a different "pitch" than the right.... hope this makes sense... also, fwiw, all of the speakers are correctly phased according to ypao optimization...
Different locations in the room would likely provide a different sound.
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post #3115 of 4417 Old 03-13-2017, 09:23 AM
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Rather in order to take advantage of the new Manual EQ capability (15Hz) you would need to purchase a better quality mic (eg. UMIK-1 or UMM-6) as well as use REW software to create the manual curve below 31Hz.
Have a calibrated MiniDSP UMIK-1 and Galaxy CM-140 Sound Level Meter, use REW, TrueRTA (1/24 octave), etc.
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post #3116 of 4417 Old 03-13-2017, 12:23 PM
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Question Front panel display

Hello all

When Dolby Surround is selected the front panel display alternates between "Dolby Digital" and "Dolby Surround", is this normal?

I've found it a bit distracting and have lowered the brightness of the display to lessen the distraction. I am gradually working my way thru this thread, I'm up to page 16, so I apologize if this has already been covered and I'm yet to come across it

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Front L&R - Yamaha Soavo NS-F901, Centre - Yamaha Soavo NS-C901, Rear Surround - Yamaha Soavo NS-B951
Subs - 2 x Yamaha NS-SW1000, F&R Presence Speakers - B&W FPM2
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post #3117 of 4417 Old 03-13-2017, 02:55 PM
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When Dolby Surround is selected the front panel display alternates between "Dolby Digital" and "Dolby Surround", is this normal?
Yes. See page 106 of the owners manual. You can change what is displayed.
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post #3118 of 4417 Old 03-13-2017, 06:45 PM
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during the tone test should identical speakers from the same manufacturer sound the same in terms of "pitch"...
They sound the same to my old ears on my system, except for the subs of course. I have the same brand speakers all around.
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Anyone have working code for Xfinity x1 remote for the 5100? Some work volume some work volume and power off but not power back on using the arc is driving me nuts because it switches inputs every time on start up this Yamaha problem has been happening for years at this point wish they would fix it
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post #3120 of 4417 Old 03-18-2017, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Bplaser View Post
Anyone have working code for Xfinity x1 remote for the 5100? Some work volume some work volume and power off but not power back on using the arc is driving me nuts because it switches inputs every time on start up this Yamaha problem has been happening for years at this point wish they would fix it
I don't think it's possible to get an X1 remote to power-on and also power-off any Aventage Yamaha receiver. There are some threads here on AVS that discuss this. I tried and failed, not with the 5100, but a lower-end Aventage. The IR code databases I've searched list discrete on and off codes, not a toggle power code, which I believe is what the X1 would need.

Take with a grain of salt - I'm not an expert.

PS: I use IP control for my 5100.

Last edited by EllisGJ; 03-18-2017 at 09:12 AM.
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