The "Official" Yamaha CX-A5100 AVP Owners thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 4223Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #631 of 4411 Old 10-16-2015, 03:41 PM
 
NorthSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Star of the Northern Hemisphere
Posts: 16,643
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7012 Post(s)
Liked: 3561
...And people can buy subwoofers with their own bass EQ.
NorthSky is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #632 of 4411 Old 10-16-2015, 03:43 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
batpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 29,393
Mentioned: 146 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4727 Post(s)
Liked: 4942
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Yamaha shot themselves in the foot - literally.

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
Setup Guide and FAQ
http://batpigworld.com/

Become a fan "batpigworld.com" on Facebook!
batpig is offline  
post #633 of 4411 Old 10-17-2015, 02:00 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 792
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 486 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
One huge, measureable advantage the Marantz AV8802 has over the Yamaha CX-A5100 is that it costs more.
not just more, considerably more, 60% more, which i consider significant, so i'm not quite sure why some (it seems) are trying to convince others that the 8802/a is better than the cx-a5100? are there folks trying to convince others that their $6,500 prepros are better than x prepro that cost $4,000? anyway, just ordered the cx-a5100 @ $2,499 (crutchfield), returned the rx-a3050 without opening the box because i decided i wanted the extra channels and no internal amps, plus a few other reasons, looking forward to receiving it, slated to arrive monday.....

for those that have the 5100, a few pre-arrival questions if you don't mind:

- i want to be able to simultaneously play music on all channels in the main zone, the same music in zone 2, and video audio in zone 3 using headphones... this is possible with the 5100 right? seems pretty straightforward per the user manual.

- if this is true, i'm assuming the 5100 down-mixes the audio signal to 2-channel stereo for (zone) audio output?

- is silent cinema available for headphone use when atmos is engaged in the main zone? or do dsp's work independently per zone, i.e. engaging atmos in the main zone won't effect dsp availability in other zones, only the main zone?

- can't tell from the manual, and no mention is made in the manual as far as i can tell, re the type of headphone connection accepted, is it a trs plug or rca, looks too big for 3.5mm..

- what happens if ypao discovers a speaker(s) out of phase? will the room correction process continue, will ypao attempt to apply the best settings to the out of phase speakers, ignore them, or will the correction process stop?

- has anyone played around with the video end of this machine, the "high quality video processing" the 5100 boasts? upscaling to 4k, video adjustments, etc.? if so, thoughts? thanks!

Last edited by aeneas01; 10-17-2015 at 02:30 AM.
aeneas01 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #634 of 4411 Old 10-17-2015, 05:11 AM
Member
 
sveinse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Norway
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 33
There are two features I have been sorely missing from Yamaha AVRs. Now, the PEQ is a great tool to customize and adjust, but in the sub it fails on two accounts:

1) The PEQ does not extent low enough. It stops at 31.3Hz. I'm lacking the ability to do house curve adjustments or bass extensions for the next two frequency stops: 24.8Hz and 19.7Hz

2) The 1/3 octave band PEQ in the subs is too coarse to address specific room nodes and/or ringing. It should be 1/6 octave or better.

Because of this limitation, it is common to add an external sub processor to the system. This is expensive, adds processing to the chain, and most of all, shouldn't be necessary in a $3000 processor. With the 64-bit processing, the 5100 should now have the sufficient precision to do filtering on very low frequencies.

I've sent a feature request to Yamaha on Facebook in hopes that be implemented. I believe, the chances for getting this improvement implemented will increase if more people "like" this post. So please like this if you agree:

https://www.facebook.com/YamahaCorpU...39877559486895

Thanks
sveinse is offline  
post #635 of 4411 Old 10-17-2015, 06:22 AM
Member
 
Civik99si's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 127
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post
Perhaps I don't understand what kind of bass problems folks are having w/o 20Hz support, but my Def Tech Trinity Signature subs (with response to 10Hz) are sounding fine. What am I missing?
I agree. My subs (duel SVS SB Ultra13s) sound fantastic. Maybe it's because they don't have much output under 20 Hz, or maybe since I've only owned Yamahas I just don't know any better. Whatever the case may be, I have no issues with the 5100 sub EQ.
bwillcox likes this.
Civik99si is offline  
post #636 of 4411 Old 10-17-2015, 06:43 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Molon_Labe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,190
Mentioned: 105 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3347 Post(s)
Liked: 4027
Quote:
Originally Posted by virtualrain View Post
Agreed.

I said this before, and I'll say it again... Based on everything I've learned lately about sub optimization, EQ is not how you solve problems at 20Hz. In fact, trying to EQ sub bass nulls or nodes that low is generally fruitless if not destructive to the longevity of your subs. Placement, multiple subs, room treatment, and delay are all far more important when optimizing subs than EQ. So I wonder why this is constantly raised as a criticism of YPAO? It seems like a common narrative that's not actually a real issue.
Yes, you never want to eq a null but eq can and will help smooth any peaks one may have. A flatter response is always better. Why wouldn't it be a criticism? Every other room correction software handles down to 20hz. Subs are one of the most important aspects of a home theater. It just seems strange that Yamaha would neglect this area. I am not Yamaha bashing, I am a fan. I bought the 5100 but returned it. Not for bass management but because I want to hold awhile in hopes 9.1.6 comes down the pipe in a couple of years. My Denon will do Atmos/DSU so it can tide me over.
Molon_Labe is offline  
post #637 of 4411 Old 10-17-2015, 07:22 AM
Advanced Member
 
virtualrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 973
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 845 Post(s)
Liked: 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Yes, you never want to eq a null but eq can and will help smooth any peaks one may have. A flatter response is always better. Why wouldn't it be a criticism? Every other room correction software handles down to 20hz. Subs are one of the most important aspects of a home theater. It just seems strange that Yamaha would neglect this area. I am not Yamaha bashing, I am a fan. I bought the 5100 but returned it. Not for bass management but because I want to hold awhile in hopes 9.1.6 comes down the pipe in a couple of years. My Denon will do Atmos/DSU so it can tide me over.

I think you would get more agreement if you were highlighting Yamaha's lack of EQ granularity in the sub-bass region. But if you really need EQ at 20Hz, who am I to tell you otherwise.

But the fact remains, you can do a hell of a lot to improve your sub performance at low frequencies without a single dB of electronic equalization.

One aspect of sub optimization I wish was included is a way to have the AVR automatically do the sub distance tweak to optimize the cross-over point with the center channel. That would be far more useful than EQ at 20Hz (at least for me).

SONY 75X850C | YAMAHA RX-A2050 | 5 DAYTON AUDIO APA150 | KLIPSCH RP 5.2.4
virtualrain is offline  
post #638 of 4411 Old 10-17-2015, 07:25 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Molon_Labe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,190
Mentioned: 105 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3347 Post(s)
Liked: 4027
Quote:
Originally Posted by virtualrain View Post
I think you would get more agreement if you were highlighting Yamaha's lack of EQ granularity in the sub-bass region. But if you really need EQ at 20Hz, who am I to tell you otherwise.

But the fact remains, you can do a hell of a lot to improve your sub performance at low frequencies without a single dB of electronic equalization.

One aspect of sub optimization I wish was included is a way to have the AVR automatically do the sub distance tweak to optimize the cross-over point with the center channel. That would be far more useful than EQ at 20Hz (at least for me).
Agreed
Molon_Labe is offline  
post #639 of 4411 Old 10-17-2015, 08:06 AM
Member
 
sveinse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Norway
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 33
My use case is that I want a small boost on 25Hz to add some more punch in the low-end register of movies. I have an anti-mode 8033 that does the processing for the room nodes, so I wouldn't use the PEQ to defeat anything. Just to customize the sound, aka house curves.

The anti-mode can do this boost, but it does it by gaining enormously 8dB, and it also reduce the overall gain by 3dB. It affects the overall timber of the entire bass range, and this is not good. Without the ability to boost lower than 30Hz in the Yamaha, I would then need yet another external processor to do this.
Gurba likes this.
sveinse is offline  
post #640 of 4411 Old 10-17-2015, 02:17 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bwillcox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 2,320
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 870 Post(s)
Liked: 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post
I, myself, wouldn't necessarily assume that because I'm experiencing this issue that others would. In my experience, HDMI is incredibly flakey and prone to handshake errors. With the arrival of the new HDMI 2.0a and HDCP 2.2, frankly, I anticipated that I'd have some problems initially.

This brief (1 to 2 second) dropout once per powering on of the 103D is nothing compared to the problems I'm having with my JVC X700 projector. I can't get the chain of 103D -> 5100 -> X700 to work at all. And trying that hookup puts the projector into a state where only powercycling it gets it back.
Thought I'd followup on the handshaking problems that I've been having with my 5100 and X700 projector.

Today I replaced the two Monoprice Redmere cables that I had running from the 103D to the 5100 then to the X700. The new cables are 2 meter Ethereal MHX series cables that are DPL Labs certified at 18.2Gb/sec. The short story is that this appears to have fixed all of my handshaking problems! These are passive cables that are higher speed rated than the old ones. Not sure exactly what change made the difference, but I'm now a happy camper.
Gurba, Petit Bard and Molon_Labe like this.
bwillcox is online now  
post #641 of 4411 Old 10-17-2015, 05:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
kriktsemaj99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 6,914
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 752 Post(s)
Liked: 476
Quote:
Originally Posted by sveinse View Post
My use case is that I want a small boost on 25Hz to add some more punch in the low-end register of movies. I have an anti-mode 8033 that does the processing for the room nodes, so I wouldn't use the PEQ to defeat anything. Just to customize the sound, aka house curves.

If you boost the lowest frequency (31.3 Hz) with the widest filter (lowest Q factor), then the boost will extend to 25Hz and below. So you can still dial in a house curve with the Yamaha PEQ. Where it falls short is trying to deal with room modes that need narrow filters at very specific frequencies.
kriktsemaj99 is offline  
post #642 of 4411 Old 10-18-2015, 02:11 AM
Member
 
sveinse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Norway
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post
If you boost the lowest frequency (31.3 Hz) with the widest filter (lowest Q factor), then the boost will extend to 25Hz and below. So you can still dial in a house curve with the Yamaha PEQ. Where it falls short is trying to deal with room modes that need narrow filters at very specific frequencies.
...but that will also boost equally above 31.3Hz as well, which makes it way too hot on the 30-40Hz range.

The filters on Yamaha is interesting, because you may select a very high Q (10 I believe), but you can't target specific enough frequencies.

Both of these are in my feature request to Yamaha.
Gurba likes this.
sveinse is offline  
post #643 of 4411 Old 10-18-2015, 06:13 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
kriktsemaj99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 6,914
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 752 Post(s)
Liked: 476
^ You can use other filters to pull down the high side of the wide 31Hz boost, but it's not ideal.

The old RX-Z11 had an extra set of PEQ filters just for standing waves, which went up to Q=20 (i.e. very narrow) with 1/12 octave frequency steps. As far as I know that was unique to the Z11.
kriktsemaj99 is offline  
post #644 of 4411 Old 10-18-2015, 06:41 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
turnne1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Indianapolis Indiana
Posts: 6,505
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2289 Post(s)
Liked: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

In my case, listening to my work, I am truly happy, regardless of price vs the competition.
in your words..."Dont disagree with that at all...

and that would be what I would say as well

though with that in mind with your most recent statement...not sure why you brought up price in your point earlier?
As I said before ..at the end of the day if you are happy with it that is all that matters

You shouldn't need a "casual listening exercise"...which is what I have called it, to make any difference in your selection

I will go ahead and insert my opinion here...LOL...

A person raves about /endorses a piece for months saying many times it was the "equal or better" than pieces that cost many times more.....
Then organizes a "casual listening scenario" where the piece they have talked about for months wins...
Not a surprising scenario....

While it may truly be the winner
Perhaps it me...but If I had organized the event, I sure as heck would have done double blind etc tests to make sure that it at least appeared as fair and unbiased as possible

But...thats just me

Warren

Rm 1 LG65E7 Marantz 8802A prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A and HK PA2400 amps B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM6's.rears
Rm 2 Sony 49x900E Denon X7200 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Sony 55x930E Yamaha A1060 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Sony 65Z9D
turnne1 is online now  
post #645 of 4411 Old 10-18-2015, 06:50 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
turnne1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Indianapolis Indiana
Posts: 6,505
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2289 Post(s)
Liked: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeneas01 View Post
not just more, considerably more, 60% more, which i consider significant, so i'm not quite sure why some (it seems) are trying to convince others that the 8802/a is better than the cx-a5100? are there folks trying to convince others that their $6,500 prepros are better than x prepro that cost $4,000? anyway,!
lol....as I said before
Give it 6-9 months and I am betting there is a "market correction"
If you recall...the differences were this large the last time with the 8801 and CX-a5000
Months later they were about even...and then the Yamaha was actually higher( street price) than the 8801
This was before the 8802 came out

re: price
People on here are very funny about that
if they have a higher priced piece they try to justify its MSRP a s a sign of better quality...if they have a lower priced model than they say the higher priced one is a version of the "emperor's new clothes"

truth is that Asian electronics typically have a short shelf life and prices fall rapidly
Completely different than the Anthem/Krell/McIntosh/Mark Levision etc products

Warren

Rm 1 LG65E7 Marantz 8802A prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A and HK PA2400 amps B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM6's.rears
Rm 2 Sony 49x900E Denon X7200 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Sony 55x930E Yamaha A1060 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Sony 65Z9D
turnne1 is online now  
post #646 of 4411 Old 10-18-2015, 06:55 PM
 
NorthSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Star of the Northern Hemisphere
Posts: 16,643
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7012 Post(s)
Liked: 3561
But Anthem is more in the ranks of "sanity". ...Their new AVM 60 pre/pro retails for just slightly more than the Yamaha 5100, @ approximately $3,850 US.
/// And less than the Marantz 8802A (MSRP).

Actually the Yamaha @ its price right now (11.2-channel pre/pro with Atmos & DTS:X) is the same price than the Emotiva XMC-1 pre/pro (7.2-channel).

And the new Marantz 7702MKII is the least expensive of them all. ...But by only $300 compared to the Yamaha 5100.

Last edited by NorthSky; 10-18-2015 at 09:36 PM. Reason: typo
NorthSky is offline  
post #647 of 4411 Old 10-18-2015, 08:33 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 792
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 486 Post(s)
Liked: 116
anyone know if the 5100 has "true" video pass through? a lot of pre.pros and receivers that offer video processing often make this claim, that video can be passed through untouched if a given setting is selected, but the video is actually not unaltered, artifacts are introduced... so does the 5100 actually pass video through cleanly when the "direct" is selected?
aeneas01 is offline  
post #648 of 4411 Old 10-19-2015, 12:49 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
FilmMixer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Los Angeles Area, CA. USA
Posts: 8,694
Mentioned: 138 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2267 Post(s)
Liked: 2982
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
re: price
People on here are very funny about that
if they have a higher priced piece they try to justify its MSRP a s a sign of better quality...if they have a lower priced model than they say the higher priced one is a version of the "emperor's new clothes"

Warren
Warren... I don't need to justify the price of my purchase...

Marantz upgraded the 8802 over the 8801 in significant ways..

Here is a link to a power point presentation that talks about said differences...

NOTE THIS IS A DIRECT LINK AND WILL DOWNLOAD A FILE:

You need either Power Point (PC) or Keynote (Mac) to view..

Marantz 8802 Details

Besides the DSP upgrades, the 5100 appears to be a 3050.. with no significant work done on the analog and output sections... I've owned a 3040 so I have a pretty good idea how the 3050, and subsequently the 5100, should sound..

I don't need to justify how I spent my money..

The 8802 is a well designed piece of gear, and the only reason I brought up price is to say that IMO you are getting what you paid for in the 8802, and if someone decides to spend more for the 8802... how that translates from one user to the next is up to them...

Just my .02
FilmMixer is offline  
post #649 of 4411 Old 10-19-2015, 01:46 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
turnne1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Indianapolis Indiana
Posts: 6,505
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2289 Post(s)
Liked: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Warren... I don't need to justify the price of my purchase..
thats good to hear
It sounds like we are on the same page as neither needs a "crutch" to justify their purchases
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Marantz upgraded the 8802 over the 8801 in significant ways..

Here is a link to a power point presentation that talks about said differences...

NOTE THIS IS A DIRECT LINK AND WILL DOWNLOAD A FILE:

You need either Power Point (PC) or Keynote (Mac) to view..

Marantz 8802 Details
and shall I assume you owned a 8801 as well so that your ears could tell these differences?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Besides the DSP upgrades, the 5100 appears to be a 3050.. with no significant work done on the analog and output sections... I've owned a 3040 so I have a pretty good idea how the 3050, and subsequently the 5100, should sound..
appears to be?...should sound?

ok......
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
I don't need to justify how I spent my money..
again we agree
you are preaching to the choir...
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
The 8802 is a well designed piece of gear, and the only reason I brought up price is to say that IMO you are getting what you paid for in the 8802, and if someone decides to spend more for the 8802... how that translates from one user to the next is up to them...

Just my .02
I am sure it is though I dont own the piece
You used context of price between the two units to suggest that the MSRP meant something comparatively better between the two
With that..I do not agree
So..we can agree to disagree on that point


In regard to personal choices about spending
I couldnt agree with you more
be it a $3000 Marantz or a $10K Anthem
Things like this "casual listening exercise" that was just done should have no bearing...especially the method with which it was done

Rm 1 LG65E7 Marantz 8802A prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A and HK PA2400 amps B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM6's.rears
Rm 2 Sony 49x900E Denon X7200 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Sony 55x930E Yamaha A1060 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Sony 65Z9D
turnne1 is online now  
post #650 of 4411 Old 10-19-2015, 03:05 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SteveH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: MN and AZ USA
Posts: 2,550
Mentioned: 101 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1190 Post(s)
Liked: 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
A person raves about /endorses a piece for months saying many times it was the "equal or better" than pieces that cost many times more.....
Then organizes a "casual listening scenario" where the piece they have talked about for months wins...
Not a surprising scenario
....

While it may truly be the winner
Perhaps it me...but If I had organized the event, I sure as heck would have done double blind etc tests to make sure that it at least appeared as fair and unbiased as possible

But...thats just me

Warren
Are you suggesting that I am lying (as well as 6 other AVS members) and questioning our integrity? Read and re-read this next point; Everyone who was there preferred the Marantz. It wasn't a conspiracy, a pre-planned Yamaha hate session, etc. It was a subjective shootout. I've posted all my thoughts in that thread and we don't need it on this thread too.

Furthermore, I sell Marantz, Onkyo, Yamaha, Bryston, Krell, Theta, Cary, Arcam, Emotiva, and Lexicon (because I have Harman Luxury). I will sell what people want. I'm not stupid enough to argue with them. If it comparison went the other direction, I would be recommending accordingly. If the magazine reviews come out the same (and if our ears work the same, I predict it will be the case), I suppose you will be attacking their motivations too? Each generation of PREPRO's is getting better and better (control of Jitter, better IC's, etc, etc). About now, everything sounds good to a certain degree.

No one made an error buying the 5100. Even if you agree that the 8802 sounded better, the Yamaha costs less. I plan on comparing it to the 7702mkii but it won't be a while till my new theater is up and rolling. I already know I prefer XT-32 room EQ. To some that isn't important. The 8802 is a refined 7702 and the 7702 will be very tough competition for the 5100. I know how fantastic it sounds. I've heard all of the processors I sell (other than the Theta). Have you heard an 8802? How about the 5100? You have offered your opinions. Just how many have you performed in the blind with statistical rigor? How about ANYBODY who writes about their opinion (other than Harman)?

My motivation for testing is always for MY system. I like to test with many because it helps me get it right. So for MY budget system, I am not going to use the Yamaha and might use the 7702. So it's between the 7702mkii and 8802 for MY system. I shared my thoughts yet you just cannot let it go.

When you are question my motivations, now you are crossing the line. I'm asking you to drop it and move on.
audiofan1 likes this.

Steve (Owner) Sound Video

Last edited by SteveH; 10-19-2015 at 03:51 PM.
SteveH is offline  
post #651 of 4411 Old 10-19-2015, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
ellisr63's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,470
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 993 Post(s)
Liked: 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
Are you suggesting that I am lying (as well as 6 other AVS members) and questioning our integrity? Read and re-read this next point; Everyone who was there preferred the Marantz. It wasn't a conspiracy, a pre-planned Yamaha hate session, etc. It was a subjective shootout. I've posted all my thoughts in that thread and we don't need it on this thread too.

Furthermore, I sell Marantz, Onkyo, Yamaha, Bryston, Krell, Theta, Cary, Arcam, Emotiva, and Lexicon (because I have Harman Luxury). I will sell what people want. I'm not stupid enough to argue with them. If it went the other direction, I would be recommending accordingly. If the magazine reviews come out the same (and if our ears work the same, I predict it will be the case), I suppose you will be attacking their motivations too?

No one made an error buying the 5100. Even if you agree that the 8802 sounded better, the Yamaha costs less. I plan on comparing it to the 7702mkii but it won't be a while till my new theater is up and rolling. I already know I prefer XT-32 room EQ. To some that isn't important. The 8802 is a refined 7702 and the 7702 will be very tough competition for the 5100. I know how fantastic it sounds. I've heard all of the processors I sell (other than the Theta). Have you heard an 8802? How about the 5100? You have offered your opinions. Just how many have you performed in the blind with statistical rigor? How about ANYBODY who writes about their opinion (other than Harman)?

My motivation for testing is always for MY system. I like to test with many because it helps me get it right. So for MY budget system, I am not going to use the Yamaha and might use the 7702. So it's between the 7702mkii and 8802 for MY system. I shared my thoughts yet you just cannot let it go.

When you are question my motivations, now you are crossing the line. I'm asking you to drop it and move on.
I would love to see how they all would fare with a Dirac DDRC-88A for the room tune...that way Audyssey, and YPAo are not the issue. I understand that it is a $1k additional expense though. I was not happy with Audyssey with my 4520, and I have also not been happy with YPAO either (Audyssey was better IMO), but the DDRC-88A was a nice improvement over what I had. When I purchased the DDRC-88A, I did it because i knew I would be swapping out preamps down the road, and didn't want to be retuning every time. The Yamaha 5100 sounds great to me with the Dirac, and I would recommend it to anyone that wants to move up to the next level of room tuning. I almost went with the 7702, and in hindsight I could have saved some cash too. I have had Yamaha in the past as well as Krell, Denon, Pioneer Elite, Classe, and Sunfire. I have no doubt that the Yamaha is not the best out there but it met my needs as I assume the Marantz will for you too. If you ever get the chance to compare the Marantz, and Yamaha with Dirac I would love to hear the results.
Molon_Labe and Cypriano like this.
ellisr63 is offline  
post #652 of 4411 Old 10-19-2015, 03:58 PM
Member
 
sveinse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Norway
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 33
We're on the verge of doing something similar here in Norway: We are going attempt to execute a blind A B test of a Yamaha CX-A5100 and Marantz 8801 in this no-nonsense home cinema: http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/...t-tilbygg.html (in Norwegian -- and this is not my home theater).
SteveH, audiofan1, Gurba and 3 others like this.
sveinse is offline  
post #653 of 4411 Old 10-19-2015, 04:06 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SteveH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: MN and AZ USA
Posts: 2,550
Mentioned: 101 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1190 Post(s)
Liked: 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by sveinse View Post
We're on the verge of doing something similar here in Norway: We are going attempt to execute a blind A B test of a Yamaha CX-A5100 and Marantz 8801 in this no-nonsense home cinema: http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/...t-tilbygg.html (in Norwegian -- and this is not my home theater).
Impressive theater!!!!!

Try and get your hands on a 8802A or 7702A. In previous comparisons, I liked the 7702 over the 8801. I'm not alone. BUT, if you have efficient speakers, the noise floor is lower on the 8801 over the 7702.

Steve (Owner) Sound Video
SteveH is offline  
post #654 of 4411 Old 10-19-2015, 04:18 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SteveH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: MN and AZ USA
Posts: 2,550
Mentioned: 101 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1190 Post(s)
Liked: 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
I would love to see how they all would fare with a Dirac DDRC-88A for the room tune...that way Audyssey, and YPAo are not the issue. I understand that it is a $1k additional expense though. I was not happy with Audyssey with my 4520, and I have also not been happy with YPAO either (Audyssey was better IMO), but the DDRC-88A was a nice improvement over what I had. When I purchased the DDRC-88A, I did it because i knew I would be swapping out preamps down the road, and didn't want to be retuning every time. The Yamaha 5100 sounds great to me with the Dirac, and I would recommend it to anyone that wants to move up to the next level of room tuning. I almost went with the 7702, and in hindsight I could have saved some cash too. I have had Yamaha in the past as well as Krell, Denon, Pioneer Elite, Classe, and Sunfire. I have no doubt that the Yamaha is not the best out there but it met my needs as I assume the Marantz will for you too. If you ever get the chance to compare the Marantz, and Yamaha with Dirac I would love to hear the results.
I really liked the Sunfire for stereo performance. Also the Krell KTS7.1 (not so much the Showcase).

I heard the new Arcam receiver (class G) at a private showing at CEDIA. The room sounded wonderful but Dirac still added a lot of value. I didn't hear any subjective blankets over the speakers like sometimes happens with XT-32. USD will be $6K. But if I can shed a 7 channel amp, and the net-net is a superior product, I'll consider it. This isn't a skies the limit system for my AZ home but rather a very good system on a budget. I'm blowing a rather big budget on stereo. In fact, I just placed an order for the $30K brand new Levinson monoblocks.

I've asked the Arcam guy if I can get one early unit to review for potential customers (the most important one is ME) and I think I have them convinced. It's helpful to be a big dealer to get an early scoop on what things sound like. As I said before, my curiositythat drives me to compare and contrast is my systems. I spent 2 hours with the Arcam receiver. Like many people on this forum, I dream about my options as I put shampoo in my hair. It was what drove me to compare the Yammy. It's a fine unit and no one is going to dislike it.

Steve (Owner) Sound Video
SteveH is offline  
post #655 of 4411 Old 10-19-2015, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
ellisr63's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,470
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 993 Post(s)
Liked: 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
Impressive theater!!!!!

Try and get your hands on a 8802A or 7702A. In previous comparisons, I liked the 7702 over the 8801. I'm not alone. BUT, if you have efficient speakers, the noise floor is lower on the 8801 over the 7702.
How is the noise floor on the Yamaha 5100 compared to the marantz 7702, and 8802? I have to go up to the stage to even hear our horn hiss (about 2' from the screen) with the 5100.
ellisr63 is offline  
post #656 of 4411 Old 10-19-2015, 05:16 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
turnne1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Indianapolis Indiana
Posts: 6,505
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2289 Post(s)
Liked: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
Are you suggesting that I am lying (as well as 6 other AVS members) and questioning our integrity?.
Seriously!?
I realize that you dont know me...but if that is what I thought I would have pretty much stated that is what I thought.
I am pretty direct like that
I will make a few points and only use the portion of you statement that is relevant to what I have stated earlier

1. You have endorsed the Marantz 8802 for months
2.You have stated that it could hold its own with pieces that are 3x its price.You further stated that you have suggested the Marantz 8802 to customers who could afford to pay 3x
3. You have stated many times how close of a relationship you have with D&M corporation
4. You have suggested that you have "insider" information as a result of this relationship and have offered such information that you defined as such

I have no practical way to prove your statements
However..please recall your statements made in the 8802 forum as well as the 20 or so private messages( by my quick count) that you and I have exchanged over the last few months
If you need me to jog your memory with those..I can

If this were a legal matter, there is enough grounds here, that you would be forced to recuse yourself from proceedings
Clearly...this is not on that level...but I am just stating a fact
Having been on AVS forum for many years now and owning and participating in many of the top end Onkyo and Yamaha threads...I dont recall your statements about product recommendations, business relationships and insider information with those companies.
Perhaps I missed those..?
Now...do I think there was some sort of malicious and/or negative intent and purpose?

I do not. Do I think there was a possibility that it was not a level playing field
Yes
The 8802 is probably a great piece. I dont own it and therefore cant offer a personal experience
It could be all that you have said it was for the past few months
I was a bit unclear about what the core basis of your test was
Was it meant to be a casual listening evaluation with some friendly audiophiles or was it supposed to be a critical evaluation?
I would say the former
Based on the facts I stated above...it is my opinion that several double blind tests should have been held
Honestly..based on the points above...why not?
And then the "audiophiles" sighted evaluations would have certainly matched the blind ones...right?

Warren
virtualrain and Petit Bard like this.

Rm 1 LG65E7 Marantz 8802A prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A and HK PA2400 amps B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM6's.rears
Rm 2 Sony 49x900E Denon X7200 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Sony 55x930E Yamaha A1060 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Sony 65Z9D
turnne1 is online now  
post #657 of 4411 Old 10-19-2015, 05:26 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 792
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 486 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
Try and get your hands on a 8802A or 7702A. In previous comparisons, I liked the 7702 over the 8801. I'm not alone. BUT, if you have efficient speakers, the noise floor is lower on the 8801 over the 7702.
dumb question i'm sure, but what does the "a" signify, how is the 7720a different than the 7702? thanks.
aeneas01 is offline  
post #658 of 4411 Old 10-19-2015, 05:32 PM
 
NorthSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Star of the Northern Hemisphere
Posts: 16,643
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7012 Post(s)
Liked: 3561
Quote:
Originally Posted by sveinse View Post
We're on the verge of doing something similar here in Norway: We are going attempt to execute a blind A B test of a Yamaha CX-A5100 and Marantz 8801 in this no-nonsense home cinema: http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/...t-tilbygg.html (in Norwegian -- and this is not my home theater).
It's the new Marantz AV8802A that you guys should compare with the new Yamaha CX-A5100 pre/pro.
...The Marantz 8801 (older model) you can compare with the Yamaha 5000 (older model).

Also, because the Yamaha costs $2,500 (now) and the Marantz AV7702MKII costs $2,200 USA dollars...those two pre/pros are much closer for a fair comparison...IMO.
NorthSky is offline  
post #659 of 4411 Old 10-19-2015, 05:58 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SteveH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: MN and AZ USA
Posts: 2,550
Mentioned: 101 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1190 Post(s)
Liked: 1758
Warren,
I have no "insider" information. Like JD, we ask the sources when most dealers do not bother. So we just ask the decision makers. After a while, the manufacture decision makers get to know you. For instance I asked about DTS:X at the booth and I posted accordingly. Any dealer could have asked and posted. Up to now, no one asked some rumors were swirling about DTS:X being vaporware. So I asked and I posted. No special powers here...

The reason why I PMed on couple different topics was to educate your inaccuracies that were off topic. People were getting upset as you continued to give your opinion so instead of debating on a thread, I took it in a PM (where any further posts belong). Those conversations had to do with why some dealers recommend specific products, the differences between reliability of certain brands, buying power and programs of Best Buy, and other topics that you thought you had a firm handle on. But you were guessing because you are not in this industry. I attempted to educate you of how it really works. To establish credibility, I let you know I'm not guessing in my point of view. Furthermore you asked me not to talk about an item. Hence, it is a PM (what does that stand for again?). But as usual, no one was going to change your mind. You worked off of your limited experience and I figured I wasted my bandwidth. Lesson learned.

I think the guys at Marantz know how to steer the ship and I am interested in how they do what they do. No different than Revel (I am visiting engineering in January) or DALI (been to Denmark 2x), Lexicon in the day as well as Krell, Simaudio, etc. I get to know who I am doing business with and how they sound so good. I visit and study what others read about and I love that about my job. Marantz is one such vendor. In short, I recommend what I own and what I LOVE. This results in sales. And if I might add, a lot of sales. I've been working with customers for 17 years. In the day, I was EAD's largest dealer, Lexicon's 3rd largest dealer, a top 10 B&K dealer, and a huge Krell HTS7.1 dealer, etc. So I recommend what I LOVE. Nothing more nothing less.

Let me be clear, the Yammy is a wonderful sounding product. It is definitely better than the Lexicon MC-12B ($10K) (albeit the low FR room EQ was slightly better on the Lex). The new Samsung Galaxy 6 is a lot better than the Motorola Flip phone that costed more too. Hence things are getting better for less and that is putting a lot of pressure on spendy brands. So it should go without saying that brands who have economy of scale and know how to design can trump the SQ of "brands costing 3x more".

It's just that the 8802 to my ears is subjectively to the next level. Also, you missed other posts while distorting others. I've also said I would not want to be their competition while addressing the theater side of things. Yes for months and D&M has been kicking butt all across the country. If the Yammy out did the 8802A, I'd be a Yammy bigot and recommend accordingly. That doesn't mean the Yammy isn't a better fit for some. There are a plethora of DSP modes which delight some. Some people have a firm handle on standing waves and don't care about room EQ. No one should be spending extra if their speakers and room are not up to certain standards so the less costly product is the right decision. My nod might go to 7702mkii. Maybe not. I have not done the work yet.

No matter how many times I offer to send out my ABX box for people or invite people to try both product, people pass and go with their gut. So putting it bluntly, MOST customer have no interest in testing in the blind. My customers gut/decision many times goes with my subjective opinion and the sale follows. I point them to others who have also done the work and they feel comfortable enough and pull the trigger. Others go with another opinion. As with most products, there are always trade-offs. Some people do not like XT-32. Some people hate the concept of 48K down conversion. Some people are loyal to a brand that they had when there were young and others don't like the look of a curved front. So decisions come in all sizes. I error on SQ but that is my subjective opinion and overlook other short comings.

So you don't need to go off on some conspiracy theory. I am not a hypnotist. Assume what you want about me. Then what about the 6 others? Also, no need to start talking about legal action. You have a gift of reading into things and coming up with inaccurate conclusions. In short, people who attended posted what they liked. Anybody who really cares should grab them both and bring back the one they don't like as much. Both are fine products. As I attempt to talk many people in buying the 7702mkii over the 8802A in several situations, the bulk of them follow their testosterone and buy the more expensive product no matter what I recommend for their specific situation. A surprising amount will pay a premium for "made in Japan" and an incremental SQ improvement. Others don't care. So you see, I don't need to lie or twist. It is NEVER a good idea to go over ones budget for a silly piece of electronics. People should always spend most of the budget on speakers and room treatments and not preamp processors.

So take a deep breath. I'm not critiquing anything you have ever heard. It's time to move on.

Last edited by SteveH; 10-20-2015 at 07:01 AM. Reason: Clarification.
SteveH is offline  
post #660 of 4411 Old 10-19-2015, 06:59 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
FilmMixer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Los Angeles Area, CA. USA
Posts: 8,694
Mentioned: 138 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2267 Post(s)
Liked: 2982
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeneas01 View Post
dumb question i'm sure, but what does the "a" signify, how is the 7720a different than the 7702? thanks.
There is no 7702a.

The 8802 was released without the HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 hardware. The 8802a has it installed (you can upgrade the 8802 for free in the us if you pay for shipping to Marantz.) it is upgradable to DTS:X.

The 7702 is not upgradable to DTS:X.

The brand new 7702MkII is 2.0/2.2 out of the box and be upgradable to DTS:X.

I've also heard there have been some under the hood analog stage upgrades over the 7702.
FilmMixer is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
CX-A5100

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off