The "Official" Yamaha CX-A5100 AVP Owners thread - Page 63 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1861 of 4425 Old 04-07-2016, 01:06 AM
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So I had a play with the DTS:X speaker call out and observed for myself the phantoming of front presence into FL/FR and RP into back surround.

It (DTS:X) definitely sounded better with the "mapping" placed solely in the appropriate speaker.

Physically I have front presence and rear ceiling. the Ceiling speakers are at about 60 degrees to the rear of MLP. FP are currently sub-optimal as they are sitting on FL-FR (40cm height above ear per YPAO which is about right) so at about 20 degrees until I get some shelves installed. YPAO also nailed the height for RP.

So some things come to mind:

1. Do we have a channel call out for Atmos to see if it does a similar phantoming if the layout is set to presence versus overhead?

2. IMO this issue is a bug, the unit knows what format is being played and the end user should be setting the physical speaker type per the layout and the 5100 should be directing the sound as appropriate for the format, having to select patterns and such is a mess.

3. Per 2, if the angles of the speakers are a factor, given the unit has angle and height measurements, it should only be phantoming based on these results, not based on the physical speaker types (unless this is needed to some extent to "alter the sound due to the speaker type" for optimal positioning, at the moment is seems if it is doing that it's not right as the positioning is much better when not phantoming).

4. Can we confirm if 3 is happening, i.e. if we move the location of a speaker does the phantoming go away even with the same layout or indeed the amount pf phantoming change?

5. It would be nice if we could manually enter the angle and height ourselves as these factors are evidently important to 3D sound in the same way that distance (time alignment) is important for proper effects. Likewise another option would be to have the DTS:X and Atmos layouts separately selectable. This also ties in with my desire to have a decode matrix. In an ideal world you could have, separately to Scenes, but savable with scenes, for each input type a sound decoder and speaker pattern to use.

6. While having a few more patterns available would be nice anyway (my RX-V2500 had more, 4 or 6 I think) I don't think it should be considered the solution to this issue.

What do others think?

Last edited by Nemesis.ie; 04-07-2016 at 01:12 AM.
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post #1862 of 4425 Old 04-07-2016, 01:56 AM
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I would like more triggers and more sub outs on the Next pro. And proper sub calibration.
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post #1863 of 4425 Old 04-07-2016, 05:11 AM
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Just received my CX-A5100 today Please add me to the list
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post #1864 of 4425 Old 04-07-2016, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Nemesis.ie View Post
So I had a play with the DTS:X speaker call out and observed for myself the phantoming of front presence into FL/FR and RP into back surround.



It (DTS:X) definitely sounded better with the "mapping" placed solely in the appropriate speaker.



Physically I have front presence and rear ceiling. the Ceiling speakers are at about 60 degrees to the rear of MLP. FP are currently sub-optimal as they are sitting on FL-FR (40cm height above ear per YPAO which is about right) so at about 20 degrees until I get some shelves installed. YPAO also nailed the height for RP.



So some things come to mind:



1. Do we have a channel call out for Atmos to see if it does a similar phantoming if the layout is set to presence versus overhead?



2. IMO this issue is a bug, the unit knows what format is being played and the end user should be setting the physical speaker type per the layout and the 5100 should be directing the sound as appropriate for the format, having to select patterns and such is a mess.



3. Per 2, if the angles of the speakers are a factor, given the unit has angle and height measurements, it should only be phantoming based on these results, not based on the physical speaker types (unless this is needed to some extent to "alter the sound due to the speaker type" for optimal positioning, at the moment is seems if it is doing that it's not right as the positioning is much better when not phantoming).



4. Can we confirm if 3 is happening, i.e. if we move the location of a speaker does the phantoming go away even with the same layout or indeed the amount pf phantoming change?



5. It would be nice if we could manually enter the angle and height ourselves as these factors are evidently important to 3D sound in the same way that distance (time alignment) is important for proper effects. Likewise another option would be to have the DTS:X and Atmos layouts separately selectable. This also ties in with my desire to have a decode matrix. In an ideal world you could have, separately to Scenes, but savable with scenes, for each input type a sound decoder and speaker pattern to use.



6. While having a few more patterns available would be nice anyway (my RX-V2500 had more, 4 or 6 I think) I don't think it should be considered the solution to this issue.



What do others think?


The Atmos callout does something similar in reverse with Presence indicated. That's why it seems that Atmos and DTS:X have a different ideal.

The problem is that both codecs have two layers of height possible, but they are not in the same positions. Height is the least elevated, but DTS's Height is about where Dolby's Overhead is. There's no way to designate a speaker pattern independent of codec that works for each.

It's too bad that the angle measurement is not used for anything but Cinema DSP. That would be the solution for accuracy, but it would cause virtually all of our systems to use multiple speakers to phantom image sounds, and maybe we wouldn't find that ideal. After all, that's what we're setting our patterns to avoid currently.
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post #1865 of 4425 Old 04-07-2016, 06:48 AM
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I may be the only one in the forum thinking this way, but I do not agree on changing the speaker layout to hear the call out from the overhead speaker only.

Take for example the scheme In piscutre1. In the "call out" the sound for the high back speaker is placed in the position indicated by the blue dot. If I leave my setup to Overhead then the sound will be reproduced by my Back speaker and Overhead speaker rendering the sound in the position it was intended to be.
If I set the Overhead to High then the sound will shift to the Overhead speaker only and this is not where the sound was intended to be (picture).

It would be like shifting a sound ment to be in between the centre and left speaker to the left speaker only simply because the "call out" says left.

I spoke to Dts last year in Munchen and they were quite nice to explain to me the whole concept of SoundUnbound and to me the decoder works exactly as it was explained without flaws.
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post #1866 of 4425 Old 04-07-2016, 07:23 AM
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I would like more triggers and more sub outs on the Next pro. And proper sub calibration.
What is lacking on the sub calibration? I am about to order this tomorrow and that is one of the main reasons I want it for. I will be integrating a JTR Orbit Sifter and a Cap S2 near field. Horn and sealed sub. Will I have issues with this particular Pre/Pro?
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post #1867 of 4425 Old 04-07-2016, 08:06 AM
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My experience is that ypao doesn't do much with the sub. But subs should be calibrated manually for best results anyway.

Last edited by Gurba; 04-09-2016 at 02:21 AM.
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post #1868 of 4425 Old 04-07-2016, 08:55 AM
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So I will have complete control over both subs individually. Yes I know I will have to do it manually even if YAPO did do I good job I would anyway.
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post #1869 of 4425 Old 04-07-2016, 10:57 AM
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I do not agree on changing the speaker layout to hear the call out from the overhead speaker only.
The physical speaker layout doesn't change, just the labels. The DTS:X renderer assumes that Heights are at 45 degrees elevation. The Atmos renderer assumes that Overheads are at roughly 45 degrees elevation. One layout (speakers elevated 45 degrees in front and behind you) will satisfy both formats with the least compromise. However, for proper rendering, those speakers have to be labeled correctly for each format.
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post #1870 of 4425 Old 04-07-2016, 11:05 AM
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The physical speaker layout doesn't change, just the labels. The DTS:X renderer assumes that Heights are at 45 degrees elevation. The Atmos renderer assumes that Overheads are at roughly 45 degrees elevation. One layout (speakers elevated 45 degrees in front and behind you) will satisfy both formats with the least compromise. However, for proper rendering, those speakers have to be labeled correctly for each format.
So if I understand you right, what is being said is that if I set the ovehead speakers as Height Dts sees them as overhead? Doesn't seem logical and does not seem to what I have been testing as the call out is made for height spekers and not overhead unlike Atmos test tone.
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post #1871 of 4425 Old 04-07-2016, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Just received my CX-A5100 today Please add me to the list
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post #1872 of 4425 Old 04-07-2016, 11:29 AM
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So if I understand you right, what is being said is that if I set the ovehead speakers as Height Dts sees them as overhead?
No, the DTS decoder doesn't see Heights as Overheads, it simply assumes certain elevation angles for each label.

DTS assumes Heights are at 45 degrees elevation and Overheads are at 60 degrees elevation. Atmos assumes Heights at roughly 30 degrees elevation and Overheads around 45 degrees elevation. Note that both formats have a location in common: 45 degrees elevation. But they have different labels for that same location. DTS calls that location Heights. Atmos calls that location Overheads.

DTS:X mixes are typically monitored with speakers at 45 degrees elevation. If you want to hear it that way at home, then you have to label your speakers as Heights when decoding a DTS:X soundtrack.

Atmos mixes are typically monitored with speakers around 45 degrees elevation. If you want to hear it that way at home, then you have to label your speakers as Overheads when decoding an Atmos soundtrack.

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post #1873 of 4425 Old 04-07-2016, 01:52 PM
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post #1874 of 4425 Old 04-07-2016, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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post #1875 of 4425 Old 04-07-2016, 09:23 PM
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HDMI switching

Hi guys, interested in the A5100. I read the Sound and Vision review, and searched here and saw some were also having slow HDMI switching. That is one thing that drives me crazy with my Anthem D2, the slow switching, and handshake issues. Tonight was particularly bad with handshake issues going from PS3 back to DVR, I finally disconnected the D2 in frustration and plugged my DVR directly into the TV. Just wondering if there had been any change since the last firmware update?
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post #1876 of 4425 Old 04-08-2016, 01:49 AM
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I don't feel that switching is slow on my 5100 but I'm having Picture dropouts if I run PC through AVP With [email protected] and that did not improve With New fw so I use two Graphics Boards instead.
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post #1877 of 4425 Old 04-08-2016, 04:53 AM
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No, the DTS decoder doesn't see Heights as Overheads, it simply assumes certain elevation angles for each label.

DTS assumes Heights are at 45 degrees elevation and Overheads are at 60 degrees elevation.
It seems you are stating the same thing that I am, but come to a different conclusion on the reason the decoder should be set to High instead of Overhead. From what i learnt from the Dts guys in Munchen (Germany) if you have the overhead speakers placed as Atmos specs, you leave the decoder in Overhead mode. The Dts decoder will place the sound at 45° making use of the floor speakers to locate the sound where it was intended to. By stating that your Ovehead spekaers are actually in the Height position, will relocate the sound coming form the Overhead speakers only, so not at the right position. I think that you are not considering the speaker dispersion angle and pattern that differs quite a lot when placing the speaker in the ceiling or above the bed spekers facing forward into the room.
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post #1878 of 4425 Old 04-08-2016, 08:47 AM
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From what i learnt from the Dts guys in Munchen (Germany) if you have the overhead speakers placed as Atmos specs, you leave the decoder in Overhead mode. The Dts decoder will place the sound at 45° making use of the floor speakers to locate the sound where it was intended to.
If you physically place speakers at 45 degrees elevation, then that coincides with the Atmos spec for Overhead. If you leave it in Overhead mode, the DTS decoder will assume those speakers are at 60 degrees elevation (which they are not) and will try to re-map the sound downward to 45 degrees elevation (even though the speakers were ALREADY at 45 degrees elevation). This will move the sound below 45 degrees elevation, which is the incorrect position.

The only way around this problem is to designate those speakers as Heights, then the DTS decoder will assume they are at 45 degrees elevation (which they physically are). But then that designation is wrong for Atmos decoding (Atmos assumes the Heights are around 30 degrees elevation).
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I think that you are not considering the speaker dispersion angle and pattern that differs quite a lot when placing the speaker in the ceiling or above the bed spekers facing forward into the room.
Dispersion lets you know how the amount of coverage (angle) and the quality of coverage (off-axis response), but has nothing to do with elevation angles.

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post #1879 of 4425 Old 04-08-2016, 11:48 AM
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Hi guys, interested in the A5100. I read the Sound and Vision review, and searched here and saw some were also having slow HDMI switching. That is one thing that drives me crazy with my Anthem D2, the slow switching, and handshake issues. Tonight was particularly bad with handshake issues going from PS3 back to DVR, I finally disconnected the D2 in frustration and plugged my DVR directly into the TV. Just wondering if there had been any change since the last firmware update?
I had experienced very long sync times, around 10-15 secs at the worst. I timed it when testing out my subs on Interstellar. Today I noticed it was almost instant audio on the same scene. Maybe it was the FW or maybe something else changed, but seems pretty fast for me these days though it wasn't always in the past.
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post #1880 of 4425 Old 04-08-2016, 02:53 PM
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I had experienced very long sync times, around 10-15 secs at the worst. I timed it when testing out my subs on Interstellar. Today I noticed it was almost instant audio on the same scene. Maybe it was the FW or maybe something else changed, but seems pretty fast for me these days though it wasn't always in the past.
Thanks Matt.

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post #1881 of 4425 Old 04-09-2016, 01:16 AM
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The Atmos callout does something similar in reverse with Presence indicated. That's why it seems that Atmos and DTS:X have a different ideal.

It's too bad that the angle measurement is not used for anything but Cinema DSP. That would be the solution for accuracy, but it would cause virtually all of our systems to use multiple speakers to phantom image sounds, and maybe we wouldn't find that ideal. After all, that's what we're setting our patterns to avoid currently.
They really need to implement a format/speaker pattern auto-switch in this case. i.e. it automatically picks a preferred (by the user) layout depending on the incoming signal. Or indeed auto-swaps the setting depending on the input signal, that would be transparent to the user.

Regarding the few additional comments on "correctness of placement", currently if I set overhead for DTS:X the call out seems like it's almost 100% in the back surrounds and the (couple of pretty poor) demos I have appear to have almost no rear height effect and the sounds are mis-placed versus on-screen. Curiously the phantoming of the front heights to L+R is much less, maybe 10 to 20% "bleed". Maybe they have made a mistake (bug) with the current decoder and it should be doing the same with the rear surrounds, only 10-20% bleed not near 100%?

On the demos, I have 3 from DWEU, one with chat about DTS:X, one with horses, cars and a space battle and the call out. The only one that seems ot have any kind of half-decent effects (irrespective of speaker setting) is the start of the call-out. Are others seeing that too or do you have any more demos?

It could be due to my front heights being far too close to the mains which I hope to fix this weekend and will see what that does.

It's not all bad with DTS though, the Neural:X is amazing on TV, I was watching last week's MotoGP with a stereo feed and DSU and it was "natural" like an expanded stereo. I then switched to N:X and was amazed, it was pulling ambient sound out of the mix really well, I could hear bike reverberations behind me and at the interview session after the race I could hear people talking off-screen behind me (where they were in reality). Switching back to DSU and it all went a bit flat/more 180 degree versus 360. I'm hearing similar with 5.1 TV content too. (Speakers set to height, LOL).

Does anyone have a link to an 11 speaker Dolby call-out? Thanks.

Last edited by Nemesis.ie; 04-09-2016 at 01:34 AM.
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post #1882 of 4425 Old 04-11-2016, 03:18 PM
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It's too bad that the angle measurement is not used for anything but Cinema DSP.
So only Yamaha DSP programs take advantage of the YPAO measurements? Doesn't that suggest that they would provide better results than Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X which, as I understand your comment, don't?

Thanks for helping me understand.
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So only Yamaha DSP programs take advantage of the YPAO measurements? Doesn't that suggest that they would provide better results than Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X which, as I understand your comment, don't?

Thanks for helping me understand.
Am still playing around with DTS X, but I have found that the best upmixing results are with Sci Fi DSP.
That goes for Atmos as well.
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Hi All,
I've been wondering why my CX-A5100 was outputting a 7.1 signal (I have a 7.1 speaker setup) when I feed it a 5.1 signal with the the mode set to 'Straight'. Looks like it is a bug:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...l#post43182314

Regards,
Stephen
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post #1885 of 4425 Old 04-12-2016, 03:53 AM
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Hi All,
I've been wondering why my CX-A5100 was outputting a 7.1 signal (I have a 7.1 speaker setup) when I feed it a 5.1 signal with the the mode set to 'Straight'. Looks like it is a bug:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...l#post43182314

Regards,
Stephen
Not a bug with DTS 5.1 audio, rather simply the way the DTS decoder has worked for the past 4-5 years or so on all brands.
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post #1886 of 4425 Old 04-12-2016, 09:18 AM
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That's true but it also does it to DD 5.1 signals.
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Question: Which format is better for you? DTS:X or Yamaha DSP like Adventure and so on?
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post #1888 of 4425 Old 04-13-2016, 06:19 AM
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Question: Which format is better for you? DTS:X or Yamaha DSP like Adventure and so on?
I had been using Adventure for most movie watching (preferred that to DSU) but I'm really liking the Neural:X upmixing and use that now for regular TV viewing and even after some testing w/ scenes in SW:TFA I ended up using Neural:X instead of Adventure for watching the whole thing.

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post #1889 of 4425 Old 04-13-2016, 10:12 AM
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Question: Which format is better for you? DTS:X or Yamaha DSP like Adventure and so on?
They are two different things.

One is a decoder for immersive audio (>7.1) signals and the other is room simulation.

They are not mutually exclusive and can (with the 5100) be used together.


For 5100, I highly recommend using CinemaDSP for not-so-great Atmos and DTS:X mixes. That is, unless you absolutely hate CinemaDSP.


It's very useful to apply over these poor immersive mixes. If you find that you are frustrated with the lack of use of height channels or that they are too dry and seldom used, apply CinemaDSP over these tracks. The 5100 will leave these height signals unaffected by the DSP (because it's only capable of working with 8ch signals or lower) so any effects will not be processed by the DSP. However, it will add effects from the chosen DSP to the height channels. This is a great feature for movies like Transformers 4 and the like. Most of the movie the heights go silent and this leaves a sonic gap above your head (especially if you have low surrounds) and this is a great option if you find the near-constant silence above annoying.

Obviously, real good immersive audio mixes (Gravity) do not benefit as much from this but if you like the effect then go for it!
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post #1890 of 4425 Old 04-13-2016, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
For 5100, I highly recommend using CinemaDSP for not-so-great Atmos and DTS:X mixes. That is, unless you absolutely hate CinemaDSP. !
Very helpful way of explaining the topic - thanks. What setting is used to disable CinemaDSP entirely for those great Atmos/DTS-X mixes?
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