Upcoming Event: Yamaha CX-5100 Versus the Marantz AV-8802 Shootout. - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 234 Old 10-19-2015, 04:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Redundant Post in other threads re: DTS:X.

I've fielded many questions from potential buyers who are delaying their decision to buy based on DTS:X. Their fear is that DTS:X might be vaporware.

I talked with the players at D&M at CEDIA in Friday. Consider this an (accurate) update on DTS:X. Around a month ago, DTS:X had a software correction release (they told me the acronym but I forgot to write it down). Much of the work/code that was already done and it had to be re-done which consumed engineering resources. So in short, there is no doubt that DTS:X is plowing forward on the D&M product.

Baring another DTS:X software change, D&M rollout should begin January(ish) starting on the flagships and working their way down the product family. But the entry level products will be the last to be updated because it isn't as simple as releasing everything in parallel. It's a major effort that will consume their engineering bandwidth. The compete rollout on all products will take a good deal of time. So do NOT expect everything to be done by Feb 1st. My words not theirs. But I do know the flagships will be updated 1st. I'm rather confident this is happening and any product I sell comes with a guarantee that DTS:X will happen.

Having the update is wonderful but we need DTS:X encoded material. Right now, its hurry up and wait.

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post #182 of 234 Old 10-19-2015, 05:21 AM
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and

I got a job out in MA this Spring. When I am in town, I'll take you guys out for dinner and I want to hear the system updates. You guys might have played at least some part in the award.

Great. Your envited to dinner at my place.
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post #183 of 234 Old 10-19-2015, 05:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Great. Your envited to dinner at my place.
Don't forget to bring some processors; I'll supply the wine


- Rich
We already had enough "wine" in this thread. I'll bring the processors. But maybe you could put in a good word with Oppo for me? I'd love to beta test their product. Their designers have it going on!
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post #184 of 234 Old 10-19-2015, 08:46 PM
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... But maybe you could put in a good word with Oppo for me? I'd love to beta test their product. Their designers have it going on!
Steve,

If you get a the opportunity to become an Oppo beta tester, you can offer Oppo the opportunity to test their new universal blu-ray player with a variety of equipment (pre/pro/receivers) that you have access to. This would be beneficial to Oppo.

Once you become an Oppo beta tester, would like to know if you can test the bass management feature at the analogue outputs. Apparently there is no head room on the LFE channel. Believe this was a design decision by Oppo to keep the SN ratio as high as possible.

Does the LFE channel still distort when 5.1/7.1 signals are bass manged?

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post #185 of 234 Old 10-21-2015, 08:40 PM
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I hate finding thread like this one. I was all ready to look for a used 7702 for my HT and now I'm thinking go 8802A. These 7 pages just cost me a bunch of money....
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post #186 of 234 Old 10-21-2015, 08:50 PM
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I hate finding thread like this one. I was all ready to look for a used 7702 for my HT and now I'm thinking go 8802A. These 7 pages just cost me a bunch of money....
There is the 7702MKII which you might want to hear first before chunking out for the 8802A. But! I do own an 8802 and would by it again as I hate wondering about my choices
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post #187 of 234 Old 10-22-2015, 06:01 AM
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I hate finding thread like this one. I was all ready to look for a used 7702 for my HT and now I'm thinking go 8802A. These 7 pages just cost me a bunch of money....
That's one way to look at it, the other is, this has given me a lot of enjoyment for the money. I'm one who is glad I got the 8802A.
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post #188 of 234 Old 10-22-2015, 06:14 AM
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I hate finding thread like this one. I was all ready to look for a used 7702 for my HT and now I'm thinking go 8802A. These 7 pages just cost me a bunch of money....
Based on that analogy, I hate AVS

This place had costed me a ton of $$$ over the years.

Taking it further, I hate my older brother. He's the one who used to drag me all over town to all the high end Stereo shops in the area when I was a kid (those were the good old days) checking out and constantly upgrading his stereo system. He's the one who got me addicted to home theater upgradedness (is that a word?). Damn him anyway.
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post #189 of 234 Old 10-25-2015, 11:40 AM
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Interesting thread! Any chance you threw SR7010 to the mix? Wondering if it's still close to the processors in any way, or not in the same league. Mainly interested in dynamics and clarity vs. 7702mk2 in 2 channel music.
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post #190 of 234 Old 10-25-2015, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by steady teddy View Post
Based on that analogy, I hate AVS

This place had costed me a ton of $$$ over the years.

Taking it further, I hate my older brother. He's the one who used to drag me all over town to all the high end Stereo shops in the area when I was a kid (those were the good old days) checking out and constantly upgrading his stereo system. He's the one who got me addicted to home theater upgradedness (is that a word?). Damn him anyway.

Me, too but I love my Dad, LOL.... He was into Audio at the beginning of the golden age i suppose.. when he was buying tubed amps etc in the early 60's when he was in the Air Force... he took me to to all of the high end audio stores that were here at the time in the 80's.... now they are all gone.. (las vegas)....great times... Has cost me money.. but i love it and glad he got me into it.... He is more now into the video side of things than audio beleive it nor not.. he said for me to carry it forward...lol
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post #191 of 234 Old 10-25-2015, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Me, too but I love my Dad, LOL.... He was into Audio at the beginning of the golden age i suppose.. when he was buying tubed amps etc in the early 60's when he was in the Air Force... he took me to to all of the high end audio stores that were here at the time in the 80's.... now they are all gone.. (las vegas)....great times... Has cost me money.. but i love it and glad he got me into it.... He is more now into the video side of things than audio beleive it nor not.. he said for me to carry it forward...lol
Great story. I built ElectroVoice Speakers (a kit) with my Dad back in the mid 70's. I was in my teens. When I could drive, I hung out at "Sound Of Music" (before they changed to Best Buy) at store #2 (??) in Brooklyn Park MN. I bought the M1/C1 ampmp / preamp from Kenwood and got addicted to audio. It was in their "Audio Purist" line-up. If I find a used pair, I might buy one just to have it around.

I am much less in to video. But that new JVC PJ has me drooling. I plan on scratching that itch before monthend.
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post #192 of 234 Old 10-25-2015, 03:43 PM
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Great story. I built ElectroVoice Speakers (a kit) with my Dad back in the mid 70's. I was in my teens. When I could drive, I hung out at "Sound Of Music" (before they changed to Best Buy) at store #2 (??) in Brooklyn Park MN. I bought the M1/C1 ampmp / preamp from Kenwood and got addicted to audio. It was in their "Audio Purist" line-up. If I find a used pair, I might buy one just to have it around.

I am much less in to video. But that new JVC PJ has me drooling. I plan on scratching that itch before monthend.
Thought it was just me! I'm doing my best to hold off as I'm supposed to be a good boy and take care of a few other things first looking forward to your impressions
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post #193 of 234 Old 10-25-2015, 06:49 PM
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As I mentioned in the 5100 thread, we're about to do a similar comparison here in Norway next weekend:

We are going to compare Yamaha CX-A5100 and Marantz AV 8801. We're going to do this in this cinema (unfortunately in Norwegian): http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/...t-tilbygg.html. (It's not mine.)

The reason why we chose these two processors are because this is what we own. It's not perfect, but it'll be very interesting. I'm exited to learn if and what differences there are.

Hunsbedts cinema is certainly no-nonsense top notch. All the system calibration is made in the Crown amps, and as such room calibration is not in use. This way, we don't have to rely on extensive and time consuming room calibration to do the comparison. We might, but we don't have to.

To do this, I've designed and built a 10 channel A B switcher in order for us to switch between the processors. http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/...ml#post2135188
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post #194 of 234 Old 10-25-2015, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
Great story. I built ElectroVoice Speakers (a kit) with my Dad back in the mid 70's. I was in my teens. When I could drive, I hung out at "Sound Of Music" (before they changed to Best Buy) at store #2 (??) in Brooklyn Park MN. I bought the M1/C1 ampmp / preamp from Kenwood and got addicted to audio. It was in their "Audio Purist" line-up. If I find a used pair, I might buy one just to have it around.

I am much less in to video. But that new JVC PJ has me drooling. I plan on scratching that itch before monthend.
Which model Steve?
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post #195 of 234 Old 10-25-2015, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by sveinse View Post
As I mentioned in the 5100 thread, we're about to do a similar comparison here in Norway next weekend:

We are going to compare Yamaha CX-A5100 and Marantz AV 8801. We're going to do this in this cinema (unfortunately in Norwegian): http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/...t-tilbygg.html. (It's not mine.)

The reason why we chose these two processors are because this is what we own. It's not perfect, but it'll be very interesting. I'm exited to learn if and what differences there are.

Hunbedts cinema is certainly no-nonsense top notch. All the system calibration is made in the Crown amps, and as such room calibration is not in use. This way, we don't have to rely on extensive and time consuming room calibration to do the comparison. We might, but we don't have to.

To do this, I've designed and built a 10 channel A B switcher in order for us to switch between the processors. http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/...ml#post2135188
Interesting on the LFE+Main noted in the setup listed below the pics? Is there a special way you guys have this running or is just straight LFE+ Main? I'm realy looking forward to comparison
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post #196 of 234 Old 10-25-2015, 09:05 PM
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There is the 7702MKII which you might want to hear first before chunking out for the 8802A. But! I do own an 8802 and would by it again as I hate wondering about my choices
I'm personally wondering about the X7200 compared to both these pre pros. I generally like having free amps to go along with the processing even if I also decide to use some external power.
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post #197 of 234 Old 10-25-2015, 09:47 PM
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I'm personally wondering about the X7200 compared to both these pre pros. I generally like having free amps to go along with the processing even if I also decide to use some external power.
The X7200 shares the same dac's as the 8802 and a lot of the raw processing power but that would be it! as the host of other things Marantz has done in the 8802 (particularly the HDAM's) have pushed it into True world class performance for both 2/ch & multichannel. Now the 7702mkII while having a lesser 32bit AKM dac and the improved HDAM's (but not as discrete as the 8802 but same DNA) plus the jitter tweaks found in the 8802, one can garner from the originals praise over the 8801 the MKII may be something special, where does that leave the 7200? A mighty fine receiver that can pull off serving as a pre/pro and have amps on board to save coast space & $. I've been down the reciever as pre/pro before and its a safe plan but for me! once stepping up to separates, there's no going back as that last bit of fidelity matters
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post #198 of 234 Old 10-26-2015, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Which model Steve?
I'm going with the DLA-RS400. I was flabbergasted on how good it was. I come from the school of though that I want to minimize my $$'s in video AND get a drop dead gorgeous picture. The higher light output, HDR, and scaling trumped the $8K Epson. I thought that was the one I was going to get.

They showed a demo about 500 yards from the show floor where NO ONE was told about and that is where I fell in love with them. So nearly everything you read will be from the show floor demo. the big demo was off site a little. I sat in that room for close to 2 hours amazed on the PQ of all models.

Personally, I see little value (if any) going to their flagship. The mid priced version RS500 is the sweet spot if you go BIG. They showed a HUGE picture on a white screen with their flagship. I predict the RS500 would arguably look identical and $2500 less retail. But with a Screen Innovation 1.2 gain Slate and the RS400, on a moderately size screen, I don't need anything better for my eyes. It was so black that there is no need for masking. The brighter 2016 model is perfect as our eyes (I'm 50 and brighter image makes a huge difference as you age).

I had the privilege of coincidentally eating with the inventor of D-ILA as we chatted for a solid hour. JVC already has 8K panels for a different market. The point is a lot of technology has trickled down to their home products and I for one didn't see any real advantage of 4K. HDR was a big deal. The 4500 hour lamp light was a bonus. But the light output with inky black levels made me realize they arguably had the best PJ below $20K using a 1K panel. Since I know some suppliers remaster video to jack-up color, (the Sony demo had me very suspicious) I asked for them to toss in a good-old-fashion DVD. Summary: WOW!

Bob. Buy it. As you know, deals end October 31st.

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post #199 of 234 Old 10-26-2015, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sveinse View Post
As I mentioned in the 5100 thread, we're about to do a similar comparison here in Norway next weekend:

We are going to compare Yamaha CX-A5100 and Marantz AV 8801. We're going to do this in this cinema (unfortunately in Norwegian): http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/...t-tilbygg.html. (It's not mine.)

The reason why we chose these two processors are because this is what we own. It's not perfect, but it'll be very interesting. I'm exited to learn if and what differences there are.

Hunsbedts cinema is certainly no-nonsense top notch. All the system calibration is made in the Crown amps, and as such room calibration is not in use. This way, we don't have to rely on extensive and time consuming room calibration to do the comparison. We might, but we don't have to.

To do this, I've designed and built a 10 channel A B switcher in order for us to switch between the processors. http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/...ml#post2135188
Oh wow... being such a great guy... If you want to send me a nice air plane ticket... I could bring my 8802a to this event.
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post #200 of 234 Old 10-26-2015, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
I'm going with the DLA-RS400. I was flabbergasted on how good it was. I come from the school of though that I want to minimize my $$'s in video AND get a drop dead gorgeous picture. The higher light output, HDR, and scaling trumped the $8K Epson. I thought that was the one I was going to get.

They showed a demo about 500 yards from the show floor where NO ONE was told about and that is where I fell in love with them. So nearly everything you read will be from the show floor demo. the big demo was off site a little. I sat in that room for close to 2 hours amazed on the PQ of all models.

Personally, I see little value (if any) going to their flagship. The mid priced version RS500 is the sweet spot if you go BIG. They showed a HUGE picture on a white screen with their flagship. I predict the RS500 would arguably look identical and $2500 less retail. But with a Screen Innovation 1.2 gain Slate and the RS400, on a moderately size screen, I don't need anything better for my eyes. It was so black that there is no need for masking. The brighter 2016 model is perfect as our eyes (I'm 50 and brighter image makes a huge difference as you age).

I had the privilege of coincidentally eating with the inventor of D-ILA as we chatted for a solid hour. JVC already has 8K panels for a different market. The point is a lot of technology has trickled down to their home products and I for one didn't see any real advantage of 4K. HDR was a big deal. The 4500 hour lamp light was a bonus. But the light output with inky black levels made me realize they arguably had the best PJ below $20K using a 1K panel. Since I know some suppliers remaster video to jack-up color, (the Sony demo had me very suspicious) I asked for them to toss in a good-old-fashion DVD. Summary: WOW!

Bob. Buy it. As you know, deals end October 31st.
Thanks Steve, I think you just talked me into this sir!
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post #201 of 234 Old 11-01-2015, 01:41 PM
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We have now made the comparison test of Marantz AV 8801 and Yamaha CX-A5100 this weekend. Is there any interest in post this here in this thread, or should I rather start a new thread?

When you compared 8802 and 5100, did you compare multi channel audio? Did you notice significant differences in the mixing levels across those two? We observed that some tracks (mostly Dolby TrueHD) was reproduced with a significant different mixing levels. We're talking 2-3dB difference in center levels and slightly less in surrounds. While other tracks were completely equal.

I worked with Dolby Digital decoding software years ago, and I am under the clear understanding that Dolby and DTS has strict requirements to the channel levels in reproduction of multi channel audio. How come then that the Marantz and Yamaha behaves so differently?
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post #202 of 234 Old 11-01-2015, 02:18 PM
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Please post here or link to your new thread if you create one.
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post #203 of 234 Old 11-01-2015, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sveinse View Post
We have now made the comparison test of Marantz AV 8801 and Yamaha CX-A5100 this weekend. Is there any interest in post this here in this thread, or should I rather start a new thread?

When you compared 8802 and 5100, did you compare multi channel audio? Did you notice significant differences in the mixing levels across those two? We observed that some tracks (mostly Dolby TrueHD) was reproduced with a significant different mixing levels. We're talking 2-3dB difference in center levels and slightly less in surrounds. While other tracks were completely equal.

I worked with Dolby Digital decoding software years ago, and I am under the clear understanding that Dolby and DTS has strict requirements to the channel levels in reproduction of multi channel audio. How come then that the Marantz and Yamaha behaves so differently?
Did you verify the differences using test tones?

What are these strict requirements you speak of?
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post #204 of 234 Old 11-01-2015, 03:48 PM
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I'll post the full description later -- I need to translate the text to English.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Did you verify the differences using test tones?

What are these strict requirements you speak of?
Levels on the individual channels were matched between the two processor using an 8-channel PCM audio clip. I was using 1kHz for the full channels and 40Hz for the LFEs. The levels were matched with a VU-meter on the balanced XLR output from the processor.

Most media content, like stereo and many multi channel sources, yields no volume difference between Marantz and Yamaha, proving that the level calibration is correct.

I am currently pursuing a trail where it could seem like the Marantz had dynamic compression set to its default values, which is on for Dolby TrueHD. The art of flight does have the dynamic compression meta-data set in its stream, so that is a plausible hypothesis.

By strict requirements I mean that when playing back a Dolby encoded track (or DTS for that matter), the relative levels between the channels shall be equal. A TrueHD track must reproduce exactly equal on all variants of decoder, brand and models. Otherwise the product would not pass the product tests by Dolby licensing.

Specifically in this example, the center channel shall have the same relative volume to L and R on all variants of decoders, make and models. Marantz 8801 and Yamaha CX-A5100 evidently behaves differently, and I think it's likely that the cause is dynamic compression being wrongfully enabled (which it seems to be by default) on the Marantz.
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post #205 of 234 Old 01-18-2016, 08:27 AM
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Hi Steve,

I just finished reading your shoot out thread from October. Good stuff! Hey I'm in Phoenix and it looks like you may also be here (maybe for the winter?) I'm currently shopping for a preamp processor and am down to the 5100, 8802 or 7702 MkII. You had plans of doing a compare of the 7702 mkII vs 5100/ 8802 but am not sure if you ever completed it. I would like to pick up the 7702 MKII if it compares OK. Any opinions? Also I have heard that some of the Marantz (7702 etc) have issues with hum or hiss at the speakers. Many times this can be a function of the overall system but saw in one thread that subbing in the 5100 eliminated the hum. Is this something you have noticed? I will be going all single ended to my amps, but my runs will probably be only 10'.

Thanks for any advice
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post #206 of 234 Old 04-25-2016, 05:14 PM
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I'm considering going from AV7702MkII to a 5100 or Anthem AVM60 after reliability issues with two different units (Steve, I'll email you soon).

I'm persuaded by the uniformity of the results, as well as comparisons elsewhere, but I'm also disappointed that it was sighted; would it have been that hard to not tell listeners what was playing and/or to block views of the units?

More serious than that is another possible issue - do I understand correctly that the movie sound comparisons were done with the Yamaha having a severe uncorrected bass peak?

For sure that will lessen the perceived resolution.

Noah

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post #207 of 234 Old 12-10-2016, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sveinse View Post
I'll post the full description later -- I need to translate the text to English.



Levels on the individual channels were matched between the two processor using an 8-channel PCM audio clip. I was using 1kHz for the full channels and 40Hz for the LFEs. The levels were matched with a VU-meter on the balanced XLR output from the processor.

Most media content, like stereo and many multi channel sources, yields no volume difference between Marantz and Yamaha, proving that the level calibration is correct.

I am currently pursuing a trail where it could seem like the Marantz had dynamic compression set to its default values, which is on for Dolby TrueHD. The art of flight does have the dynamic compression meta-data set in its stream, so that is a plausible hypothesis.

By strict requirements I mean that when playing back a Dolby encoded track (or DTS for that matter), the relative levels between the channels shall be equal. A TrueHD track must reproduce exactly equal on all variants of decoder, brand and models. Otherwise the product would not pass the product tests by Dolby licensing.

Specifically in this example, the center channel shall have the same relative volume to L and R on all variants of decoders, make and models. Marantz 8801 and Yamaha CX-A5100 evidently behaves differently, and I think it's likely that the cause is dynamic compression being wrongfully enabled (which it seems to be by default) on the Marantz.
Did you ever post your thoughts/descriptions??

Ascend Sierra 2's (LCR & side surrounds) + Pioneer atmos modules. 5.1.4 setup
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post #208 of 234 Old 06-27-2017, 02:33 AM
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Wow, I've just read these pages for the last 90 mins. Impressive stuff everyone. I have been looking at the CX-A5100 with a price of A$3299 with the retailer telling me "This is still the best pre-amp available at any price!" after I mentioned the Marantz 77-88 models.

He hasn't let me down before however, reading all this is just not helping :-( Somebody else from Australia posted prices which I have not yet looked in to and them being very different by a couple a Gs...there would have to be a significant difference for me to cough up that much more.

Sadly this thread is now six month old and our Norwegian friend hasn't posted his findings...did it happen Sviense?

I don't have the luxury of being able to do a side by side test so am relying on as many shoot out comparisons I can read about.
I run Paradigm Studio series for speakers (see signature) and the Anthem MCA50 for 5ch amps, I was using my trusty old Denon AVCA10SE as the preamp but it just failed on me so the Oppo 105 is controlling things at the moment.
While it sounds very nice, there are a few sources which have allowed me to hit 100 on the volume control and I still wanted more and I hate the Neo6 compared to 5ch channel stereo which I use a lot, especially for TV and non critical listening so I need a prepro (plus I have items I can't connect due to lack of facility)

If there is anyone in Adelaide who can help, I'm all ears!

Cheers

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post #209 of 234 Old 06-27-2017, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htimseel View Post
Wow, I've just read these pages for the last 90 mins. Impressive stuff everyone. I have been looking at the CX-A5100 with a price of A$3299 with the retailer telling me "This is still the best pre-amp available at any price!" after I mentioned the Marantz 77-88 models.

He hasn't let me down before however, reading all this is just not helping :-( Somebody else from Australia posted prices which I have not yet looked in to and them being very different by a couple a Gs...there would have to be a significant difference for me to cough up that much more.

Sadly this thread is now six month old and our Norwegian friend hasn't posted his findings...did it happen Sviense?

I don't have the luxury of being able to do a side by side test so am relying on as many shoot out comparisons I can read about.
I run Paradigm Studio series for speakers (see signature) and the Anthem MCA50 for 5ch amps, I was using my trusty old Denon AVCA10SE as the preamp but it just failed on me so the Oppo 105 is controlling things at the moment.
While it sounds very nice, there are a few sources which have allowed me to hit 100 on the volume control and I still wanted more and I hate the Neo6 compared to 5ch channel stereo which I use a lot, especially for TV and non critical listening so I need a prepro (plus I have items I can't connect due to lack of facility)

If there is anyone in Adelaide who can help, I'm all ears!

Cheers
Fellow Aussie here. About to move into our new home which is 2 weeks out from construction completion. I have purchased everything for my dedicated HT EXCEPT the Processor. I'd been holding out as I wasn't sure what to get. Seems we're between models, waiting for something new to be announced. All my past Receivers have been top-end Yamahas (V3800, V2095).

The 5100 certainly ticks all the boxes for me, but the new '70 series Aventage Receivers have better audio processors in them apparently.

I wonder how far off a 5200 is from Yamaha?
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post #210 of 234 Old 06-27-2017, 09:23 PM
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Hmmmm, I haven't heard about better processors in the 70 series, I'll look in to that. Having said that though, I would be surprised if they are better build quality and with the new firmware upgrades coming for the 5100 would that make them similar.

It's only 6 months off the new year and a possible new model...bit of a hard place to be sitting right now. I could sit it out I think and hope for an early release, if indeed there will be one...It's been 20 years since I bought the Denon and it's been a great piece of kit for me, I just hope there is a significant upgrade in sound even just going from my Oppo 105 5.1 analogue out to the ext in of the 5100...

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