Upcoming Event: Yamaha CX-5100 Versus the Marantz AV-8802 Shootout. - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 234 Old 06-28-2017, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by htimseel View Post
Hmmmm, I haven't heard about better processors in the 70 series, I'll look in to that. Having said that though, I would be surprised if they are better build quality and with the new firmware upgrades coming for the 5100 would that make them similar.

It's only 6 months off the new year and a possible new model...bit of a hard place to be sitting right now. I could sit it out I think and hope for an early release, if indeed there will be one...It's been 20 years since I bought the Denon and it's been a great piece of kit for me, I just hope there is a significant upgrade in sound even just going from my Oppo 105 5.1 analogue out to the ext in of the 5100...
Oh there's a firmware upgrade coming? What does it do / enable / upgrade?
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post #212 of 234 Old 06-28-2017, 12:43 AM
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Yes, Dolby Vision and a few other things apparently. That's all I was told.

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post #213 of 234 Old 06-29-2017, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by htimseel View Post
Hmmmm, I haven't heard about better processors in the 70 series, I'll look in to that. Having said that though, I would be surprised if they are better build quality and with the new firmware upgrades coming for the 5100 would that make them similar.

It's only 6 months off the new year and a possible new model...bit of a hard place to be sitting right now. I could sit it out I think and hope for an early release, if indeed there will be one...It's been 20 years since I bought the Denon and it's been a great piece of kit for me, I just hope there is a significant upgrade in sound even just going from my Oppo 105 5.1 analogue out to the ext in of the 5100...
I thought that the successor of the 5100 would come end of 2018 (not 2017) as has been stated elsewhere. That's supposed to be the reason, why the 5100 is getting the DV / HLG update later-on. I didn't find any info about a "better" processor in the '70s Avantages either.
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post #214 of 234 Old 06-29-2017, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by htimseel View Post
"This is still the best pre-amp available at any price!" after I mentioned the Marantz 77-88 models.

He hasn't let me down before
Unless he or you were hyperbolizing find a new guy! There are superior, more expensive processors by far.

I don't known if this is true but was told that the 3070 has improved YPAO that is superior to the CX-5100.
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post #215 of 234 Old 06-29-2017, 12:45 PM
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There is no evidence of a "better" YAPO either. The 5100 has the same low frequency (15Hz) manual PEQs after one of the latest firmware updates as the 70s Avantage models. I don't see any difference there.
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post #216 of 234 Old 06-29-2017, 03:01 PM
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Unless he or you were hyperbolizing find a new guy! There are superior, more expensive processors by far.

I don't known if this is true but was told that the 3070 has improved YPAO that is superior to the CX-5100.
While I don't have money to burn, I'm all ears Marc. I'm still searching for a price in Australia for the Marantz models but going by an earlier post there is a gap of a couple of thousand dollars for the 88 models.

I've done a few searches and while there may have been things like an Outlaw pop up, I don't recall seeing anything with both Phono and 5.1 ext input on them. The phono I can get away with not being on there as there are devices you can use in line but I use an Oppo 105 and want an ext input for that.

Keep in mind the rest of my set up too. No point in showing me something that equals the value of the rest in total.

Fire away!

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post #217 of 234 Old 06-29-2017, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by htimseel View Post
While I don't have money to burn, I'm all ears Marc. I'm still searching for a price in Australia for the Marantz models but going by an earlier post there is a gap of a couple of thousand dollars for the 88 models.

I've done a few searches and while there may have been things like an Outlaw pop up, I don't recall seeing anything with both Phono and 5.1 ext input on them. The phono I can get away with not being on there as there are devices you can use in line but I use an Oppo 105 and want an ext input for that.

Keep in mind the rest of my set up too. No point in showing me something that equals the value of the rest in total.

Fire away!
https://www.anthemav.com/products-cu.../page=overview

https://www.anthemav.com/products-cu.../page=overview

http://www.arcam.co.uk/range/fmj.htm

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/us/Produ...roductId=MX122

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/us/Produ...roductId=MX160

http://www.lyngdorf.com/products/electronics/mp-50

There are also offerings from Trinnov and Datasat with prices well over $15,000 USD.

In a few months D+M should be announcing their latest flagships for release in early 2018. Denon AVR-X7400H and Marantz AV8804. I believe it would be worth waiting on these to release as it will drive prices down on the AV8802A and likely the CX-5100.
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post #218 of 234 Old 06-29-2017, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
https://www.anthemav.com/products-cu.../page=overview

https://www.anthemav.com/products-cu.../page=overview

http://www.arcam.co.uk/range/fmj.htm

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/us/Produ...roductId=MX122

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/us/Produ...roductId=MX160

http://www.lyngdorf.com/products/electronics/mp-50

There are also offerings from Trinnov and Datasat with prices well over $15,000 USD.

In a few months D+M should be announcing their latest flagships for release in early 2018. Denon AVR-X7400H and Marantz AV8804. I believe it would be worth waiting on these to release as it will drive prices down on the AV8802A and likely the CX-5100.
https://www.anthemav.com/products-cu.../page=overview

No 5.1 input

https://www.anthemav.com/products-cu.../page=overview

No 5.1 input

http://www.arcam.co.uk/range/fmj.htm

No 5.1 input


http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/us/Produ...roductId=MX122

Au$13,000 !!!

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/us/Produ...roductId=MX160

Au$26,000 !!!


http://www.lyngdorf.com/products/electronics/mp-50

No 5.1 input $9000+

Marc, I did say I wanted 5.1 input and to take in to account my system value. All the above are either no good to me or out of my price range. It did give me a couple of hours research however, I'm no better off.

I can look at something up to Au$6000 retail and hope to get a good deal....as in around 4k tops. I can't justify any more. I've had the Oppo a couple of years and unless something is going to be mindblowingly better, it will be the main source for a while.

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post #219 of 234 Old 07-01-2017, 05:51 PM
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I wanted to show you that your dealer's statement about the Yamaha being the best preamp at any price was ludicrous. Hopefully that has been laid to bed. I didn't even mention Theta or Classe.

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Originally Posted by htimseel View Post
I've had the Oppo a couple of years and unless something is going to be mindblowingly better, it will be the main source for a while.
What is your goal? 5.1, 7.1, 5.1.4, 7.1.4? If you aren't looking to move to immersive audio (Atmos/DTS:X) then you can simply use your oppo as your preamp.

Analog A/V inputs are slowly dwindling/disappearing. The Lyngdorf MP-50 actually has no analog audio inputs. Zilch!
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post #220 of 234 Old 07-01-2017, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I wanted to show you that your dealer's statement about the Yamaha being the best preamp at any price was ludicrous. Hopefully that has been laid to bed. I didn't even mention Theta or Classe.


What is your goal? 5.1, 7.1, 5.1.4, 7.1.4? If you aren't looking to move to immersive audio (Atmos/DTS:X) then you can simply use your oppo as your preamp.

Analog A/V inputs are slowly dwindling/disappearing. The Lyngdorf MP-50 actually has no analog audio inputs. Zilch!
Fair call.

5.1 is the go for me. I am currently using the Oppo as the preamp but it doesn't have enough input for all my sources and it's not loud enough! There have been a few things I've played where the volume has been at maximum and it was not enough.

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Fair call.

5.1 is the go for me. I am currently using the Oppo as the preamp but it doesn't have enough input for all my sources and it's not loud enough! There have been a few things I've played where the volume has been at maximum and it was not enough.
This is will give you the best SQ for the money and I believe packs all you need: Emotiva XMC-1

https://emotiva.com/products/pres-and-pros/xmc-1-0
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post #222 of 234 Old 07-02-2017, 12:40 AM
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This is will give you the best SQ for the money and I believe packs all you need: Emotiva XMC-1

https://emotiva.com/products/pres-and-pros/xmc-1-0

I had seen this a while ago but think I may suffer 'brand snob syndrome' for the price point, I will look in to it and check reviews/comparisons.

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post #223 of 234 Old 07-02-2017, 06:44 AM
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^ Some people seem to be impossible to help...
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post #224 of 234 Old 07-02-2017, 09:38 AM
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I had seen this a while ago but think I may suffer 'brand snob syndrome' for the price point, I will look in to it and check reviews/comparisons.
So, Yamaha is the best and Emotiva is an off-brand?

🤐

Stretch your budget and get the Classe Sigma-SSP. Or are they also an off-brand?
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post #225 of 234 Old 07-04-2017, 01:00 AM
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^ Some people seem to be impossible to help...
Why? Having a list of devices that don't fit with my needs nor budget doesn't make me impossible.

Thanks for your valuable input.

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post #226 of 234 Old 07-04-2017, 01:31 AM
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So, Yamaha is the best and Emotiva is an off-brand?

🤐

Stretch your budget and get the Classe Sigma-SSP. Or are they also an off-brand?
There you go again, I'm sure you mean well Marc, but that device has no 5.1 analogue input either.

I never said Yamaha were anything, get your facts straight before you start getting narky with me, I quoted someone.
I have only recently been reading good things about Emotiva gear. Being not so confident in making an actual purchase of an XMC-1 is probably what I should have said rather than being a brand snob. And I'm sure Yamaha isn't rated lowly either.


Lets start again.

Here is probably the most important question I would like an answer for.... anybody please feel free to comment. I genuinely would like to know so please, no yes/no answers. Can you at least give me a why or why not?

Using the analogue 5.1/7.1 of any prepro/preamp from my Oppo 105, will there be a noticeable/any sound difference?

As the Oppo is doing the work, in theory (or not?) a preamp would be a volume control unless I select 5ch stereo or a DSP etc?

Don't bite my head off. This is pretty much what it boils down to for me....I'm 99% music, being CD, Bluray, SACD, DVDA etc. The Oppo handles all that and PC music via Cat5.

I'm struggling to see why I would need to spend so much more on higher value gear.
I would guess that if I were to spend 10k plus on a prepro, I should expect better DACs than the Oppo and could go HDMI but that's not an option.

My blindfold is on, I'm tied to the tree....fire away.

And Thanks in advance.

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post #227 of 234 Old 07-04-2017, 04:04 AM
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There you go again, I'm sure you mean well Marc, but that device has no 5.1 analogue input either.

I never said Yamaha were anything, get your facts straight before you start getting narky with me, I quoted someone.
I have only recently been reading good things about Emotiva gear. Being not so confident in making an actual purchase of an XMC-1 is probably what I should have said rather than being a brand snob. And I'm sure Yamaha isn't rated lowly either.


Lets start again.

Here is probably the most important question I would like an answer for.... anybody please feel free to comment. I genuinely would like to know so please, no yes/no answers. Can you at least give me a why or why not?

Using the analogue 5.1/7.1 of any prepro/preamp from my Oppo 105, will there be a noticeable/any sound differencegb
There will be minor differences. If you're very familiar with the tone/voice/timbre of your speakers, you might notice it, depending on the acuity of your hearing. For example, many people like the sound signature of Marantz' proprietary HDAM preamp design.
Quote:
As the Oppo is doing the work, in theory (or not?) a preamp would be a volume control unless I select 5ch stereo or a DSP etc?
Pretty much, yes. Of course, there are psychoacoustic effects which affect how things sound at lower levels. Human hearing is much less sensitive to low and high frequencies at low sound levels. "Loudness controls" and Audyssey's Dynamic EQ are popular ways to compensate for that effect so that music sounds the same whether you're playing it at a low or high sound level. And, of course, room EQ can often compensate for infelicities in speakers and room acoustics (e.g. reflections and peaks and nulls in bass response due to room dimensions). In modern equipment desins, both "loudness" and room EQ require the use of DSPs and can't be applied to 7.1 multichannel analog connections. MiniDSP's 88a Dirac roomEQ units have analog inputs and outputs but use ADCs and DACs.

Quote:
Don't bite my head off. This is pretty much what it boils down to for me....I'm 99% music, being CD, Bluray, SACD, DVDA etc. The Oppo handles all that and PC music via Cat5.

I'm struggling to see why I would need to spend so much more on higher value gear.
How much you spend really is determined by the audio/video features which you decide are important to you. Many people find room EQ to be essential because they have to listen in rooms that really aren't optimal. Others prefer the conceptual simplicity of not using any audio processing at all. Bear in mind that reasonably good room EQ doesn't require spending 10s of K. The MiniDSP units are about $1K each and handle 8 channels of audio, while pre/pros with Audyssey cost about $2.2K new but much less for the discontinued models.

Quote:
I would guess that if I were to spend 10k plus on a prepro, I should expect better DACs than the Oppo and could go HDMI but that's not an option.

My blindfold is on, I'm tied to the tree....fire away.

And Thanks in advance.
Too many people seem to get hung up on the type of DAC. The accompanying analog circuitry has much more of an effect on the quality of the resulting audio.

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post #228 of 234 Old 07-04-2017, 05:00 AM
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Excellent post Selden,

Thanks for that.

For the past 20 years I've had no room EQ other than what came with my Paradigm Sub which I've had for a couple of years.
The Denon used to power my old speakers however, when I bought the Studio 100s I blew it up, it couldn't cope with the extra load, I had it repaired, used it as a preamp and bought the MCA50 power amp.
About a month ago the Denon stopped outputting a signal intermittently and so I had to remove it from it's duty and now use the Oppo as the main control.

Actually, thinking back, I used to have a couple of graphic equalisers hooked up via the record in/out mainly for fixing up vinyl Pink Floyd Bootlegs but removed these to gain space and digitising my vinyl collection and using PC based software when needed.

I'm not sure I would need/miss any EQ control. My room is around 6m x 4mx 2.4m with a curtain down one wall, open to the kitchen and a 5 seater lounge suite in an L configuration. I do crank it though. I play and record my own music in my home studio then use my HiFi in pure direct to mix. That's not to say it's the main use for my system.

I was just unsure as to if/how much a difference a preamp would make with using the Oppo as the main source.
My PC is connected via coaxial to the Oppo.

I'm getting the feeling that I would be hard pressed to hear much difference regardless of brand with the way I want to be set up. Having said that, I do notice a difference when I select digital input from the Oppo where the Denon would do the processing. I guess that's where I would notice any other brand putting it's mark on the sound but generally I would stick with the Oppo 5.1

Cheers

Lee

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post #229 of 234 Old 07-04-2017, 07:44 AM
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Why? Having a list of devices that don't fit with my needs nor budget doesn't make me impossible.

Thanks for your valuable input.
Sure, some of those suggestions were pricey, but in your initial query you kind of gave the impression that money was no object (obviously to a point), which opened the door for some pricey suggestions to be made. But then there was the exchange regarding the Emotiva, which should actually be an excellent fit for you given that your budget isn't unlimited. When the budget IS somewhat constrained, you ultimately have to make some sacrifices.

One of my friends who is REALLY fussy about audio quality has been using the Emotiva for over a year now and has been very happy with it overall. Based on what he has said, it certainly isn't perfect but it doesn't seem to have any fatal flaws. This guy is using the Emotiva with ATI Signature 6000 series amps and Revel Ultima2 speakers (Salon2 front left/right, Voice2 center, and Studio2 surrounds).

I do get where you're coming from with a hesitation to go with Emotiva, but I honestly think it might be the right solution for you.

By the way, it's always a good idea to give some concrete constraints on budget when asking what is a rather open ended question as it can save time and confusion.
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post #230 of 234 Old 07-04-2017, 05:21 PM
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Hey GSR,

Agreed in regards to mentioning price constraints.
I've been looking at the Yamaha CX-A5100 for the last 12 months or so as it has been recommended to me, I've been putting it off as the Denon kept going but now I'm at the point of having to make a decision.

As it is, I am mostly able to play anything through the Oppo except my turntable, which to be honest gets the dust wiped off it every 12 months because someone else wants to compare an album to a digital format and my tuner which I occasionally put on, it's no real loss as I can stream on the net or just play the music channels on my Foxtel unit (sat tv)

I rarely watch films and if I do, 5.1 sounds good enough so I'm not really interested in Atmos and all that.
Music is where it's at and from what I can gather so far, there's little in it really seeing as the Oppo is the main workhorse.
I'm hoping someone can give a technical insight to how the preamp, whatever brand, will/won't change the sound using it's 5.1 input.

Thanks for your reply.

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post #231 of 234 Old 07-28-2018, 04:46 PM
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Anyone care to comment? What I am disappointed about is the level of prepro you have to go to just to have multi channel inputs.

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post #232 of 234 Old 07-28-2018, 05:45 PM
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@htimseel don't waste cycles looking at these immersive SSPs if you are never going to exceed 7.1

I would be looking for a Classe, Krell, Theta, etc. secondhand myself.

There is also always the Emotiva XMC-1 and Outlaw 976.
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post #233 of 234 Old 07-28-2018, 05:55 PM
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Funny you mention the Outlaw as I just found the 976 last week and I'm still waiting a reply from them is it looks like they are only 110v Thanks for the reply, I've not looked at secondhand....

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post #234 of 234 Old 07-28-2018, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htimseel View Post
Funny you mention the Outlaw as I just found the 976 last week and I'm still waiting a reply from them is it looks like they are only 110v Thanks for the reply, I've not looked at secondhand....
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