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post #61 of 175 Old 10-15-2015, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Well no-load power up of 12 chs (6 XLS)--All simultaneously powered through one strip.....Using a different outlet than my equipment rack, just for ease of accessibility. Circuit I used is G/L (general purpose and lighting) 15A.

Saw a bit of overhead light flicker on the first try but all subsequent attempts didn't do anything. No breaker trip with in-rush and I'm not sure what else was on that circuit---I might be powering my LCD and a 1000W sub amp on that circuit already. Once it's on the same circuit with 2 additional XLS, receiver, DVR, and a 300W sub things may change but that's further down the road.

Also noticed people complaining about LCD brightness. A dimmer would be nice, but since my rack is behind my right shoulder of back row, I didn't even really notice the blue backlights that much in the room.

If I put my ear up against the front of the units I heard a humming which I'm assuming is 60Hz switching and/or fan noise. But these things are dead quiet. Once they're in the rack closet I won't even notice them. Can't wait to feed them and see how they sound.

It is a glorious thing though! Xmas in October in Kansas City!
Out of curiosity what pre pro/avr are you using to control all your crown amps
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post #62 of 175 Old 10-15-2015, 12:07 PM
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Out of curiosity what pre pro/avr are you using to control all your crown amps
Sorry i should have added that i am thinking of upgrading to the AV7702mkII with 6 crown amps.
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post #63 of 175 Old 10-15-2015, 12:29 PM
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I have Yamaha A2040 9ch now but Crown are not hooked up to it. Just received 6 of my 8 XLS1500 yesterday and the other 2 are showing up tomorrow. I also just ordered the 7702mk2 about 30 minutes ago to replace the Yamaha. The AVR options SR7010 and Denon X6200 are very good choices as well, especially if you don't want to immediately have to buy more crown amps. You can always use the AVR internal amps for the channels that you don't have ext amp. Then at a later date add more XLS amps and feed them all through the RCA preouts.
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post #64 of 175 Old 10-15-2015, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
I have Yamaha A2040 9ch now but Crown are not hooked up to it. Just received 6 of my 8 XLS1500 yesterday and the other 2 are showing up tomorrow. I also just ordered the 7702mk2 about 30 minutes ago to replace the Yamaha. The AVR options SR7010 and Denon X6200 are very good choices as well, especially if you don't want to immediately have to buy more crown amps. You can always use the AVR internal amps for the channels that you don't have ext amp. Then at a later date add more XLS amps and feed them all through the RCA preouts.
i Initially wanted to get the X6200 or SC-95 but when i found out that the price of the 7702mk2 was the same as the X6200. I thought it would be better to upgrade to the 7702mk2 instead of the x6200.

Based on your research would you say the 7702mk2 would have a better SQ than the x6200 or am i just trying to talk myself into getting separates.

Thanks again for all your help.
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post #65 of 175 Old 10-15-2015, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shyyour View Post
Out of curiosity what pre pro/avr are you using to control all your crown amps
Denon 5200 for me.
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post #66 of 175 Old 10-15-2015, 03:01 PM
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Denon 5200 for me.
Kool do you have any XLS 1000, i read some where that the S/N ratio is higher (don't really know what that means) than that of the other XLS amps and that its better to get the X1500.

My question is how bad will the hum/hiss be on the XLS 1000 as i don't need the power of the XLS 1500. Current price difference between the two (1000 and 1500) is $30.

My plan is to do a (7.1.4) get the AV7702mkII and drive the LF -XLS1500, C- ADS Amp 100 , SL & SR - XLS1000, SBL & SBR - XLS1000, TFL & TFR - ADS Amp 100, TRL & TLR -ADS Amp 100 or would you advice just pony up and get all XLS (i fear that its just way way over kill for my speakers LR- Polk 75T, C- CS2, SR & SRB- TSX110, Atmos - 620RT).

What do you think ?
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post #67 of 175 Old 10-15-2015, 03:47 PM
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No, I never bought the 1000's. I don't need the power of the 1500 either, especially considering my JBL Pro Cinema speakers are rated at 104db sensitivity. 50 watts with these speakers could drive you out of the room. The negative of high sensitivity speakers is that I get some hiss when there is no material being played. It doesnt bother me, but it is there. That is what the noise floor or SNR rating is. The XLS1000 would be worse. Once content starts playing, they sound really good. I can't tell the difference between them and the Denon internal amps, which is a good thing to me. The only difference is the power is effortless. If you have regular consumer type speakers that are 89-92db, I doubt you will hear any hiss at all.

To answer your setup question, yes it is overkill. However, once you have external amps you are free to go with pre/pro instead of receivers. The pre/pro usually have better DACs and features. You are spending your money on the bells and whistles and not an internal amp. The day is coming when receivers will have more channels than the current 11. It is highly doubtful they will have internal amps for all the channels. There will be an internal amp for most channels and then pre outs for the additional ones. That is already the case on my Denon receiver. Amps are always a good thing to have.
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post #68 of 175 Old 10-15-2015, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
No, I never bought the 1000's. I don't need the power of the 1500 either, especially considering my JBL Pro Cinema speakers are rated at 104db sensitivity. 50 watts with these speakers could drive you out of the room. The negative of high sensitivity speakers is that I get some hiss when there is no material being played. It doesnt bother me, but it is there. That is what the noise floor or SNR rating is. The XLS1000 would be worse. Once content starts playing, they sound really good. I can't tell the difference between them and the Denon internal amps, which is a good thing to me. The only difference is the power is effortless. If you have regular consumer type speakers that are 89-92db, I doubt you will hear any hiss at all.

To answer your setup question, yes it is overkill. However, once you have external amps you are free to go with pre/pro instead of receivers. The pre/pro usually have better DACs and features. You are spending your money on the bells and whistles and not an internal amp. The day is coming when receivers will have more channels than the current 11. It is highly doubtful they will have internal amps for all the channels. There will be an internal amp for most channels and then pre outs for the additional ones. That is already the case on my Denon receiver. Amps are always a good thing to have.
Thanks a lot im sold . Thankfully my speakers are 90db (in ceilings 89db). I have the SR5009 and i wanted to upgrade for atmos/DTS X. It just seemed to make more sense to go separates if the price was the same as the receiver. The current price tags of the XLS just made the decision even easier. Thanks again (not sure the wife will be happy though)
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post #69 of 175 Old 10-15-2015, 04:10 PM
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I would definitely get a power conditioner since you are in Nigeria. The company I work for has an office in Lagos that is continually ruining network equipment due to power outages and spikes.

Last edited by Molon_Labe; 10-15-2015 at 04:18 PM.
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post #70 of 175 Old 10-15-2015, 04:12 PM
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Due to power consumption and heat dissipation it is going to become extremely difficult for manufs to squeeze in 15 channels of internal amps unless they seriously cut the wattage and go class D. Otherwise they will require dedicated high amp circuits which most consumers (vs us fanatics) will not want to do. The manufs goal is to make as many and sell as many as possible that fits into the broad consumer market. Even now it's very difficult to find an 11 channel internal amp AVR. It's going to become more rare only HT enthusiasts are likely going to exceed much above that many.
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post #71 of 175 Old 10-15-2015, 04:18 PM
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Process Begins....

Process begins.....

Note the rolls of coax that I inherited with house purchase. I can't bring myself to cut them even though they are unterminated behind 2 TV sets. Some may be unterminated for outlets in rooms we don't use for TV today. They run back to a master cable box in the utility space as well.


Tough to make this look tidy! A few blue speaker wires in there that I use but only 5 channels from original system.

Love how original installer used 3" wood screws through the power strips to mount them in the closet!!
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post #72 of 175 Old 10-15-2015, 04:24 PM
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Expanded hole....

Had to run new rails that are 45U vs original 28U. However ceiling slopes as it's under the stairs otherwise I would have expanded up as well. That would have been pointless as the shelf depth would have been unusable above the current opening. Even with lowering the cutout 10" I can only squeeze about 35U of usage. I'm glad I went with XLS vs Emo because there are firring strips to the 2x4 studs to support the rails. No way these would have held 210 lbs of Emo.
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post #73 of 175 Old 10-15-2015, 04:32 PM
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First of the 6 amps mounted and kept my locking drawer. Will have last 2 amps tomorrow and a Panamax PDU to help protect system and semi-sequence them which really seems like a necessity.

I will note that either my new rails are drilled slightly askew or the XLS1500 chassis mounting holes are askew. I think it's the later as my shelves and other things will allow me to get in 4 screws. The upper right holes will not align between amp face plates and the rail so only 3 screws are possible. Since other things line up, I really think it's the amps. They're out just a fraction of an inch but even if I tried to force them I doubt it would work. Best case scenario is the threads would strip. I'm more worried about the lower screws anyway as gravity tucks the top in against the rail. They're not going anywhere but will be frustrating to anyone who goes with XLS.
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post #74 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I would definitely get a power conditioner since you are in Nigeria. The company I work for has an office in Lagos that is continually ruining network equipment due to power outages and spikes.
Can you give me an idea of a good power conditioner? what does it do?

I have UPS's for my main AVR equipment's as well as a power inverter that cleans the power coming into the house (220V @ 50HZ), is also a ups and supplies 3.5 KVA power.

Do i still need a power conditioner?

Thanks
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post #75 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by shyyour View Post
Can you give me an idea of a good power conditioner? what does it do?

I have UPS's for my main AVR equipment's as well as a power inverter that cleans the power coming into the house (220V @ 50HZ), is also a ups and supplies 3.5 KVA power.

Do i still need a power conditioner?

Thanks
Ok. I will have to admit to being naive and making sweeping generalizations. I'm thoroughly surprised to see someone from Nigeria with Atmos! I admit to and own my inaccurate misconception on that one! It's neat to see!

Molon is referring to something like a Furman or Panamax product. There are other manufs. They will help with brown outs (undervoltage) and over voltage scenarios. Additionally providing surge/transient protection for high current spikes, lightning strikes, any malicious spikes on cable tv and phone lines etc. Many also offer noise filteration. More expensive ones offer regulation as well to keep power within a tight spec and can theoretically help improve sq (I think this is better for your equipment but I'm not sure sq improvement will be very audible). From an engineering perspective a tighter controlled supply is ideal. All of the above will protect your equip and extend longevity. Some higher end units will have triggers and even delays for sequencing power-up.

Since you run 220 and we are 120 here, I can't offer suggestions. You will need to read some of my comments on this thread and search for vendors that make 220 versions.
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post #76 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 04:45 AM
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Just bought Yamaha P5000S. No hiss to my surprise and its dead quiet. Needless to say I am not buying Mark Levinson monoblocks any time soon.
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post #77 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 05:29 AM
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Ok. I will have to admit to being naive and making sweeping generalizations. I'm thoroughly surprised to see someone from Nigeria with Atmos! I admit to and own my inaccurate misconception on that one! It's neat to see!

Molon is referring to something like a Furman or Panamax product. There are other manufs. They will help with brown outs (undervoltage) and over voltage scenarios. Additionally providing surge/transient protection for high current spikes, lightning strikes, any malicious spikes on cable tv and phone lines etc. Many also offer noise filteration. More expensive ones offer regulation as well to keep power within a tight spec and can theoretically help improve sq (I think this is better for your equipment but I'm not sure sq improvement will be very audible). From an engineering perspective a tighter controlled supply is ideal. All of the above will protect your equip and extend longevity. Some higher end units will have triggers and even delays for sequencing power-up.

Since you run 220 and we are 120 here, I can't offer suggestions. You will need to read some of my comments on this thread and search for vendors that make 220 versions.
Lol don't have atmos yet (just 7.1), still trying to decide between an ATMOS pre/pro or AVR.

Isn't this similar to what the inverter and UPS do? e.g. Power > Inverter (regulates power/UPS) > UPS(also has in built VR) >AVR or step down (brings down Voltage to 120) >AVR.

i will do some more research, just dont want to something that i already have covered.

Just to clarify if i do get a power conditioner it would be pointless getting a 120 v right as i would have to step down the voltage before i could use it.

Thanks again
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post #78 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 05:45 AM
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Lol don't have atmos yet (just 7.1), still trying to decide between an ATMOS pre/pro or AVR.

Isn't this similar to what the inverter and UPS do? e.g. Power > Inverter (regulates power/UPS) > UPS(also has in built VR) >AVR or step down (brings down Voltage to 120) >AVR.

i will do some more research, just dont want to something that i already have covered.

Just to clarify if i do get a power conditioner it would be pointless getting a 120 v right as i would have to step down the voltage before i could use it.

Thanks again
Btw Stoked21, this forum doesn't help . I make up my mind on something, by the time i get here , i've decided on something else thats about twice the budget (not including shipping to Nigeria). Case and point I wanted to get more information about the crown amps and after seeing your wall of crown amps, i start thinking about separates and unfortunately for me the AV7702 and the gen 1 crown amps are now within realistic budget and im telling myself yeah go for it.
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post #79 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 06:33 AM
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Not sure what's unfortunate about that!

Credit where it's due: thank molon and kbarnes as they recommended the pro amps. I haven't even heard them yet. I'm sure some hifi snobs will stick their noses up in the air at proamps, but hey they can leave and get out of my house!

My budget was twice as much as well. The savings on using crown will allow me to make some other upgrades in the Ht. Projector, new sub, new surround backs and pdu. Savings won't cover it all but the extra $1600 will make a nice dent in the wish list without the wife getting too pissed.
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post #80 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Process begins.....

Note the rolls of coax that I inherited with house purchase. I can't bring myself to cut them even though they are unterminated behind 2 TV sets. Some may be unterminated for outlets in rooms we don't use for TV today. They run back to a master cable box in the utility space as well.


Tough to make this look tidy! A few blue speaker wires in there that I use but only 5 channels from original system.

Love how original installer used 3" wood screws through the power strips to mount them in the closet!!
Good time to pick up a little label machine and label all the wires if you haven't already. I have a little Brother but there are many.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #81 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 07:21 AM
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Did that during cable runs 6 months ago. Brothers r awesome

Debating whether I should pop in couple monoprice 7.1 with hdmi plates and running snakes to amps. I'd either have to buy a bunch of banana and spends hours making them or spend $200-300 on 6-10' cables with silverbacks. Not sure if I want to go to that effort or just wrap tie my current cable runs into a tidy config.

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post #82 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 08:38 AM
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Not sure what's unfortunate about that!

Credit where it's due: thank molon and kbarnes as they recommended the pro amps. I haven't even heard them yet. I'm sure some hifi snobs will stick their noses up in the air at proamps, but hey they can leave and get out of my house!

My budget was twice as much as well. The savings on using crown will allow me to make some other upgrades in the Ht. Projector, new sub, new surround backs and pdu. Savings won't cover it all but the extra $1600 will make a nice dent in the wish list without the wife getting too pissed.
Thanks guys (molon and kbarnes).
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post #83 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 12:15 PM
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Looks like 7702mk2 prepro won't show until maybe late next week, probably early the following. So couldn't resist of course.

Went ahead and put Yam A2040 back in rack. Ran preouts for 7.0 of the XLS1500 w/gains maxed out. Have to use Yamaha internal for TF and TR. Only hooked up smaller 12" rear sub at low volume and left big 15" front unconnected. Keep in mind this is all with the new MA Bronze LCR as well. No breaker issues with everything powered-on and in use (minus whole house audio and amps were at no-load)

Started with some soft music (Once soundtrack) in 2.0 with new amps. Noticeably more SPL. Of course that's going from 1-6.5" driver per front to 3 per front. I could've probably driven the speakers to driver failure easily ([email protected] rated). Seeing as they're not burned in, I didn't try to get crazy. It was a very comfortable loud volume. I'm a rocker so I can take loud, but this was enough volume that you would not have been able to carry on a convo or listen to it at that level for very long. Next 30 seconds to mars---deafening.

Switched over to 5.1.4 and 7.1.2 test (.2 and .4 always internal yamaha). Same music choices. A little too loud at -5 db in surround. 9 ch stereo very uncomfortable volume at -5db. Saw the -10 LEDs blink on the XLRs occasionally but never clipped.

Moved over to BD Atmos Gravity in 5.1.4. Re-entry scene is one of my absolute favorite. This was the real test a -5db. My front woofers weren't fluttering around and over extending like on the cheap DT (which were set at 80 or 100hz!!). I like my movies loud and this was just a little too much for me. Ears still ringing as I type. Funny thing is the heights were so much more clear. I suppose this is because the Yamaha was only driving 4 chs instead of 9? Without my main front sub being connected the whole thing was a little over the top on the highs. But I also didn't run YPAO for EQ and levels so the system is out of balance.

Only negative I would have is the Bronze 6 front pair were a little bright and stiff. I know they'll get better after 100 hours or so and once system is retuned. In all fairness to them, I do have them bunged, xover at 60 hz and set with the small speaker EQ. Pretty amazing what sort of bass extension those new speakers have with the 6-6.5" drivers given that. The mids with the 2.5 way design were very tight and accurate. I had ran them with the Yamaha internal with music for just a few minutes yesterday before breaking down the rack. I didn't listen long enough but they seemed a lot brighter today with the XLS amps. Regardless, for $1100 ($825 to me) this is a decent pair of speakers. Head and shoulders above those $440/pair of DT studio monitors.

All in all, I know that's a lot of changes: throwing in 7 chs of new amps and new LCR all at once. But I could feel the system had more dynamics and mids and much clearer mud-free height chs. Never clipped, never tripped and an appreciable SPL difference. Really not trying to justify my $2700 spend and trying to stay completely objective here. I know I could have done much better on the LCR but with a smaller budget of $2k and spending $1050 on sale for the Bronze LCR, they were a steal.

Next stop wrapping up the prepro install, new rears and new rear sub.

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post #84 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 12:30 PM
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BTW, even after an hour I never heard the fans. I'm not sure if they ran.

Additionally there is hiss coming from the speakers. (90db speakers not Molon's 100+).

It's audible from almost 3 feet away but VERY VERY faint. If you didn't turn your ear towards it, bend down by the drivers, and stand within 2 feet and know to listen for it........I think you get the point. It's not a deterrent and if someone hadn't told me proamps tend to hiss it probably would have taken me a few days to even notice it.
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post #85 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm glad this thread has taken off! Looks like a lot of us are in the same boat and comparable speaker system goals and components used.

I got an 8802a and am piecing together the rest of the system now. It's going to be in an untreated living room of aprox 18'Wx30'Dx10.5'H. Though only about 15'x15' will be used for the listening/viewing area. It's 90% movies (75% will be action/sci-fi, you know the epic and biblical proportions stuff. The rest is a mix of HDTV and others.) and only 10% music.

I already have a JVC RS6710, Sharp XV-Z30000, Emotiva XPA-5, Oppo 103, Toshiba HD-XA2, Roku 3, Darbee 5000 and some other video components that are more trivial.

I have coming in 3x Reaction Audio CX-10's for LCR duty, 4x CX-8's for surrounds, 4x of Jeremy's new 5" speakers for ATMOS, and 4x Gamma 21's.

I was going use the Emotiva XPA-5 for the ATMOS speakers, but I may have to change that and go a different route. My original plan for the layout of the room has somewhat changed and it's size/weight won't be supported on glass shelves I was going to use. And, it seems to be a power hog on AC draw compared to Class D amps. So if I stayed with more Emotiva's or the like, it would necessitate a lot more work and changing of the circuit breakers.

Also been contemplating some Furman (Elite 15/20 PFi or DMi) or Panamax (M5400) power conditioners and a UPS (F1000) for the projector. Those would take care of my issues with atuo-on for the crown amps.
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post #86 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 01:08 PM
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@Stoked21 - Glad your happy. I would have hated for you to spend that $$$ on my recommendation and not been satisfied.

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Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post
I already have a JVC RS6710, Sharp XV-Z30000, Emotiva XPA-5, Oppo 103, Toshiba HD-XA2, Roku 3, Darbee 5000 and some other video components that are more trivial
Still listing your HD DVD player?

Last edited by Molon_Labe; 10-16-2015 at 01:16 PM.
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post #87 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 01:14 PM
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Hey Bill,

I just put my last 2 XLS1500s in. Turned all 8 on at once while 2 Yamaha AVRs, a Cisco DVR (damn thing is 4A draw vs the Google Fiber I'm receiving next week at 0.2A), a Blu-Ray and a 300W RMS sub amp were already on. Lights do dim a bit on that circuit really quickly but no breaker trip.

I'm adding the Panamax 5400 tomorrow. Since I didn't have power issues without it, I think delaying it to 5 and 3 on the stages (with prepro trigger) will be a great alternative to a true sequencer. I'll tell you now that you probably don't want the Elite Dmi as it's magnetic breaker and could trip internally on in-rush with numerous amps (per Furman engineer and my knowledge of breakers/electrical). This is all on a 15A circuit so it's a great alternative.

After hooking all 11 speakers up just now and powering them on with the AVR off, I did notice a hum everywhere in the room. So I recant my earlier analysis. It's faint but audible everywhere. Clearly sounds like 60hz almost like a ballast or a ground loop.
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post #88 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 01:22 PM
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@Stoked21 - Glad your happy. I would have hated for you to spend that $$$ on my recommendation and not been satisfied.
All things said very happy! Thanks for your help buddy!

Nothing is ever perfect and I know I could have done better with more $, more demolition, more weight, more circuits, more space, more heat....This was clearly the path of least resistance and the most flexible.
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post #89 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 01:24 PM
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I have never had any hum in my system. Are you XLR now with the temp setup?
Nope temp setup is RCA. XLR once prepro received. Guess I should say maybe it's more of a hiss than a hum. But it does seem to have a little bit of cycle to it. But maybe I'm imagining the 60hz. It's definitely not a ground loop as I've had one on a subwoofer.

Last edited by Stoked21; 10-16-2015 at 01:29 PM. Reason: correction
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post #90 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 01:51 PM
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I would definitely get a power conditioner since you are in Nigeria. The company I work for has an office in Lagos that is continually ruining network equipment due to power outages and spikes.
forgot to ask Molon, what company do you work for if you dont mind me asking ?
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