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post #91 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Nope temp setup is RCA. XLR once prepro received. Guess I should say maybe it's more of a hiss than a hum. But it does seem to have a little bit of cycle to it. But maybe I'm imagining the 60hz. It's definitely not a ground loop as I've had one on a subwoofer.
Sorry, but what does this mean. If it doesn't have Cycles, it will not make any sound. Dc is not sound. Hiss is likely self noise from somewhere in the system. 60 cycle hum is a different thing and theoretically correctable. With hiss either you can change gain staging to reduce it or you cannot depending on the equipment involved. Certainly many pro amps, having self noise consistent with other amps, will have audible hiss at twelve feet or less, while their self noise will be inaudible at distances experienced by audience members who did not bring a ladder in their expected use. Turn the amp down, and hiss will likely go away.
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post #92 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Hey Bill,

I just put my last 2 XLS1500s in. Turned all 8 on at once while 2 Yamaha AVRs, a Cisco DVR (damn thing is 4A draw vs the Google Fiber I'm receiving next week at 0.2A), a Blu-Ray and a 300W RMS sub amp were already on. Lights do dim a bit on that circuit really quickly but no breaker trip.

I'm adding the Panamax 5400 tomorrow. Since I didn't have power issues without it, I think delaying it to 5 and 3 on the stages (with prepro trigger) will be a great alternative to a true sequencer. I'll tell you now that you probably don't want the Elite Dmi as it's magnetic breaker and could trip internally on in-rush with numerous amps (per Furman engineer and my knowledge of breakers/electrical). This is all on a 15A circuit so it's a great alternative.

After hooking all 11 speakers up just now and powering them on with the AVR off, I did notice a hum everywhere in the room. So I recant my earlier analysis. It's faint but audible everywhere. Clearly sounds like 60hz almost like a ballast or a ground loop.
I too was on the phone with Furman for about an hour and a half the other day. Good to know about the DMi, thx! Only reason I was considering it was because it has the amp meter to show in real-time the AC draw.

The Panamax does too, but the tech lead me to believe that the Panamax was a sacrificial design while the Elite PFi wasn't, and could take more of a beating without having to be replaced after one surge.

I'm going to try it too, plugging in everything to see what happens. I'm just worried about how much amps the four subs will add to the load. I've added up the rest of the components, based on spec sheets and such, and I'm already over 22 amps.

So I should probably get an amp meter or something and see what they really pull in.
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post #93 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Still listing your HD DVD player?
HAHA, yea. I actually have 3 HD-XA2's. Two have just been sitting boxed up and unused. Should probably get around to selling them one of these days.
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post #94 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 03:07 PM
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Funny, I was lead to believe Dmi was sacrificial. Not sure if you talked to Michael?
Anyway, I did look and the 5400 is clearly labeled resettable everywhere....
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post #95 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post
Sorry, but what does this mean. If it doesn't have Cycles, it will not make any sound. Dc is not sound. Hiss is likely self noise from somewhere in the system. 60 cycle hum is a different thing and theoretically correctable. With hiss either you can change gain staging to reduce it or you cannot depending on the equipment involved. Certainly many pro amps, having self noise consistent with other amps, will have audible hiss at twelve feet or less, while their self noise will be inaudible at distances experienced by audience members who did not bring a ladder in their expected use. Turn the amp down, and hiss will likely go away.
Yeah really not a good choice of words on my part.
Maybe my terminology is wrong but I'm thinking hiss is more noisy and static like while hum is more 60hz?
I guess what I was trying to say is it sounds more like noise or HF as opposed a ground loop. But it also sounded like maybe there was a lower freq in there similar to what 60 hz sounds like. Being a guitarist and tube fiend, I know that gain will definitely add to this. I haven't messed with it since it's just a temp setup and is getting rewired in a week or so anyway. It really wasn't anything that was concerning. I was just trying to indicate that there was more noise there than I originally thought while the internal amps that were running simultaneously were dead quiet.
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post #96 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 04:03 PM
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post #97 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 04:11 PM
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Please can someone give me the actual dimensions of the crown amps. Crowns website has 19" x 3.5" x 7.7 which i am interpreting as L=19", H=3.5" D=7.7. I got something different on other sites. I would like to confirm that they would fit into my AV console.

Thanks
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post #98 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 04:29 PM
 
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Just measured a 1500, 19" wide (length I suppose), 3.5" tall but not sure how 7.7" comes into play, from outer edge to outer edge on the depth is slightly over 9" (hard to say exactly due to the curve of the ears that forms one of the boundaries).
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post #99 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Just measured a 1500, 19" wide (length I suppose), 3.5" tall but not sure how 7.7" comes into play, from outer edge to outer edge on the depth is slightly over 9" (hard to say exactly due to the curve of the ears that forms one of the boundaries).
Thanks a lot that really helped. Now i have to figure where to put two of the amps
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post #100 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 08:18 PM
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I finally pulled the trigger on the crown amps. i have a total of 6 amps (5 XLS1000 and 1 XLS1500).

I plan to use one XlS1000 in stereo bypass mode with only one input going in for the center channel.

Would i have any issues ? or is there a better way to use the XLS1000 for just one channel (bridged is way too much power (700W 8 ohms) for my center channel.
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post #101 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shyyour View Post
I finally pulled the trigger on the crown amps. i have a total of 6 amps (5 XLS1000 and 1 XLS1500).

I plan to use one XlS1000 in stereo bypass mode with only one input going in for the center channel.

Would i have any issues ? or is there a better way to use the XLS1000 for just one channel (bridged is way too much power (700W 8 ohms) for my center channel.
I ran the same way. My center is only rated about 120 or so. I'd rather not run it in bridged. But it would allow for the gain to be set lower. I'd rather keep the gains all set equally on all chs and let prepro set level.
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post #102 of 175 Old 10-16-2015, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
I ran the same way. My center is only rated about 120 or so. I'd rather not run it in bridged. But it would allow for the gain to be set lower. I'd rather keep the gains all set equally on all chs and let prepro set level.
Sorry still a bit confused, so i should run the center channel amp in bridged mode?

I think i read somewhere that the gains should be about half way or 3/4. Wont that be too high for the center channel in bridged mode?

I think i should start by asking what is the recommended position to set the gain on the crown amps. i would also like to use the pre/pro to set the levels only (dont want to be messing with the gain on the amps once i'm comfortable with the setup).

Thanks
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post #103 of 175 Old 10-17-2015, 05:49 AM
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Sorry for not being clear. Maybe some others with proamps can weigh in on ur question as I'm new to these myself.

I ran my center amp in stereo bypass as well. Bridged would delivery a coil burning, tweeter blowing amount of power to my center speaker. It could be done and the gain turned down very low. But I want to set all 16 gain knobs to the same position since all my speakers are pretty much similar sensitivity in the 89-92 range. I will then use a 6 position audyssey optimization for the prepro to set the individual output levels for each channel. I don't want to have to mess with the gain knobs or write down where each one was set and then adjust them if they accidentally get moved. My plan is to set them all to 12 o'clock , 3 o'clock or max.

As for where to set them I'm not sure yet as I'm waiting on prepro and haven't ran optimization on my temporary setup with rca from Yamaha avr pre outs. If I set them at max it's not a hiss or a him. I've turned volume up to zero db and it's what I would call a buzz coming from all chs and is audible everywhere in theater when nothing is playing. When something is on even quietly its obviously gone.I'm not running xlr and it's been reported that Yamaha have weak preouts so I'm not sure if all this with max gain is the source of buzz??? At the max setting running the avr volume to -5 or 0 db generates volumes I'm use to achieving with the avr internal amps and the theater rocks very loudly. Since my 4 heights are on internal amps still and I haven't optimized, I've noticed this gain position is probably a very close match to the volume levels of the heights. The nine channels seem balanced as my original atmos setup.

If I set gains to 12 o'clock , then the buzz is essentially gone. But since I haven't optimized, the 4 heights on avr internals are screaming compared to the other chs. If I were to run ypao sound optimization I would likely find that it's setting the levels to something like +5-10 db for all chs and likely reducing levels a similar proportion for the 4 height internal amps. I would potentially have to get use to my max volume limit on avr being +10db or something instead of -5 or 0. Not a deal killer. I'll probably spend the time to run optimization at 6 just to learn. Even though I'll have to redo it all in a week or so. Once I can get all 13 chs on external amps these levels and gain matching become much less of an issue.

I'm wondering if 3 o'clock is a good compromise. But I'll just have to mess with it to find out. The buzz vs a hiss is concerning to me and it has to be either due to the preout levels or the amp gains or both. Who knows maybe I'm in some sort of brown out voltage with the massive draw on a 15a and the amps r current limited? If that were the case I would expect breaker to trip. I'll run the Panamax filter and regulator this morning and find out.

Last edited by Stoked21; 10-17-2015 at 05:53 AM. Reason: Auto correct
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post #104 of 175 Old 10-17-2015, 05:54 AM
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@Stoked21

So all in all you like them? How are liking the output with music/movies? Stop being an EE nerd for a little while and quit listening to them with no content
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post #105 of 175 Old 10-17-2015, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
@Stoked21

So all in all you like them? How are liking the output with music/movies? Stop being an EE nerd for a little while and quit listening to them with no content
Your and my wife should hang out!! She says that all the time.
Definitely my biggest down fall!

I ran some music through them yesterday and watched my fav atmos scene in Gravity a few times. As I've said before the difference in dynamics is amazing. I can't even really put words to it. It's just night and day. Also no amp clipping like with the Yamaha amps! It's a big big improvement. The rack is pretty damn flashy at the same time. No one has seen it yet but the wall of amps is pretty damn impressive looking!
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post #106 of 175 Old 10-17-2015, 06:09 AM
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Great convo last night that exemplifies the EE nerd comment while watching the royals in alcs with my wife in the theater last night (not the best content for immersive sound and evaluation...but hey it's the Royals)

"Babe, I'm going to press mute. Tell me if u here a buzz" <me reaching for remote> She says: "Don't do it. I don't have the patience for these listening tests tonight. I swear to god I'll go back upstairs". <my hand slowly retreats away from remote>.
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post #107 of 175 Old 10-17-2015, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Sorry for not being clear. Maybe some others with proamps can weigh in on ur question as I'm new to these myself.

I ran my center amp in stereo bypass as well. Bridged would delivery a coil burning, tweeter blowing amount of power to my center speaker. It could be done and the gain turned down very low. But I want to set all 16 gain knobs to the same position since all my speakers are pretty much similar sensitivity in the 89-92 range. I will then use a 6 position audyssey optimization for the prepro to set the individual output levels for each channel. I don't want to have to mess with the gain knobs or write down where each one was set and then adjust them if they accidentally get moved. My plan is to set them all to 12 o'clock , 3 o'clock or max.

As for where to set them I'm not sure yet as I'm waiting on prepro and haven't ran optimization on my temporary setup with rca from Yamaha avr pre outs. If I set them at max it's not a hiss or a him. I've turned volume up to zero db and it's what I would call a buzz coming from all chs and is audible everywhere in theater when nothing is playing. When something is on even quietly its obviously gone.I'm not running xlr and it's been reported that Yamaha have weak preouts so I'm not sure if all this with max gain is the source of buzz??? At the max setting running the avr volume to -5 or 0 db generates volumes I'm use to achieving with the avr internal amps and the theater rocks very loudly. Since my 4 heights are on internal amps still and I haven't optimized, I've noticed this gain position is probably a very close match to the volume levels of the heights. The nine channels seem balanced as my original atmos setup.

If I set gains to 12 o'clock , then the buzz is essentially gone. But since I haven't optimized, the 4 heights on avr internals are screaming compared to the other chs. If I were to run ypao sound optimization I would likely find that it's setting the levels to something like +5-10 db for all chs and likely reducing levels a similar proportion for the 4 height internal amps. I would potentially have to get use to my max volume limit on avr being +10db or something instead of -5 or 0. Not a deal killer. I'll probably spend the time to run optimization at 6 just to learn. Even though I'll have to redo it all in a week or so. Once I can get all 13 chs on external amps these levels and gain matching become much less of an issue.

I'm wondering if 3 o'clock is a good compromise. But I'll just have to mess with it to find out. The buzz vs a hiss is concerning to me and it has to be either due to the preout levels or the amp gains or both. Who knows maybe I'm in some sort of brown out voltage with the massive draw on a 15a and the amps r current limited? If that were the case I would expect breaker to trip. I'll run the Panamax filter and regulator this morning and find out.
Thanks i understand now. I'll also plan to mess around with the gain position till i get a level i am comfortable with.

Another question for you, please could you explain a bit on how much power the Crowns consume. I found the power draw specs on crowns site (attached) and would like confirmation about what i read.

The XLS 1000 on 120 VAC / 60 hz will draw about 28W on an 8 ohm load per channel so for 11 channels i will be drawing about 308W.
But on the manual i saw 200W labelled just above the power plug. i just need clarification on which is right.

I need to buy a step down transformer or transformers depending on which is right.

Thanks again
Attached Files
File Type: pdf XLSDrivecore_powerdraw_thermal_keh_original.pdf (17.9 KB, 8 views)
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post #108 of 175 Old 10-17-2015, 06:20 AM
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Noise from power amplifiers can vary a bit.

The better amplifiers in AVRs will tend to produce lower audible noise levels than pro units. This is due largely to the lower voltage gain, less bandwidth and higher feedback loop closure of the power amplifying stage.

Pro amps usually have more voltage gain and the input volume controls usually function not as gain controls but as input signal attenuators, which does little for the quiescent output noise.

Most often when digital signal processing is integrated into the amplifier, the noise figure of the DSP will degrade the native S/N of the amplifier somewhat. These two noise factors with pro amps are significant issues when driving horn speakers. The JBL M2, a highly-regarded horn speaker integrated with a Crown DSP/pro amplifier, utilizes 9 dB of padding at the compression driver to reduce the audible hiss. It's a rather inefficient, expensive yet expedient solution.

Last edited by PrimeTime; 10-17-2015 at 06:25 AM.
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post #109 of 175 Old 10-17-2015, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
@Stoked21

So all in all you like them? How are liking the output with music/movies? Stop being an EE nerd for a little while and quit listening to them with no content
@Molon_Labe you beat me to it. The best part of any project (after setup, tinkering and calibration) is to seat back relax and enjoy the video and sound quality makes all the funds spent so worth it.

@Stoked21 just enjoy your system as you said you're going to do calibrating/balanced xlr once you get the av7702mkii. The "hum/hiss" might be gone then, no point obsessing over it now.
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post #110 of 175 Old 10-17-2015, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Your and my wife should hang out!! She says that all the time.
Definitely my biggest down fall!

I ran some music through them yesterday and watched my fav atmos scene in Gravity a few times. As I've said before the difference in dynamics is amazing. I can't even really put words to it. It's just night and day. Also no amp clipping like with the Yamaha amps! It's a big big improvement. The rack is pretty damn flashy at the same time. No one has seen it yet but the wall of amps is pretty damn impressive looking!
My wife is an ME. I feel your wife's pain
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post #111 of 175 Old 10-17-2015, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by shyyour View Post
Thanks i understand now. I'll also plan to mess around with the gain position till i get a level i am comfortable with.

Another question for you, please could you explain a bit on how much power the Crowns consume. I found the power draw specs on crowns site (attached) and would like confirmation about what i read.

The XLS 1000 on 120 VAC / 60 hz will draw about 28W on an 8 ohm load per channel so for 11 channels i will be drawing about 308W.
But on the manual i saw 200W labelled just above the power plug. i just need clarification on which is right.

I need to buy a step down transformer or transformers depending on which is right.

Thanks again
I saw the 200W pic on the back of the XL1500 as well. However, upon receiving them, I saw that the back is labeled 250W. Keep in mind that these are regulatory requirements to label depending on where you live (UL-USA, CSA-Canada, IEC-Europe, etc). They are safety ratings and the product power draw should not exceed that and typically the power supply has a little margin built into it.

That being said, according to the 1500, it can only draw a little over 2A (all calculations I list are based on 120VAC which is here is US and at 8ohm load). Yet their documents show an idle of about 75W (.63*120), a 1/8 power of 270W (2.26*120), and 1/3 power at extreme clip of 550W (4.59*120).

I've only ran 7 chs of my 16 (9 were in idle). I did not trip the breaker. I think the XLS1500 has been around for many many years and I'm guessing the documentation is not correct. Clearly it's not, when the back of the unit says 250W but the doc shows 200W. I don't know what to make of the power draw but I will know once my ammeter is hooked up. At the end of the day, if my breaker doesn't trip (especially with in-rush), I really don't care!!

Just be safe and make sure you have more power than you need. Take the highest numbers if you want to be safe.
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post #112 of 175 Old 10-17-2015, 06:58 AM
 
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bet power output is more like 50W x 2 for the 2500

http://musicgearforless.com/image/ca...r-1024x600.jpg
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post #113 of 175 Old 10-17-2015, 07:04 AM
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bet power output is more like 50W x 2 for the 2500

http://musicgearforless.com/image/ca...r-1024x600.jpg
- Are you just posting to hear yourself?
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post #114 of 175 Old 10-17-2015, 07:05 AM
 
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Power output figures are 1khz.

I'd like to see Sound & Vision do a bench test.
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post #115 of 175 Old 10-17-2015, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
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Power output figures are 1khz.

I'd like to see Sound & Vision do a bench test.
Harmon isn't some ID company peddling a few products. Crown powers thousands of live venues, theaters, and concerts globally. I am pretty sure if they were a bunch of fudgers, it would be known quickly. That is why it is called pro audio. Instead of posting trivial banter, go to any website that sells Crown amps and read the reviews - 4 to 5 stars across the board. People have a hard time accepting that a $200 amp can deliver great sound quality in spades. Just come visit and I will take you to crystal clear, clean volumes that will make your ears bleed.
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post #116 of 175 Old 10-17-2015, 07:14 AM
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Lots of people have used pro amps to power all their speakers. If noise is an issue, many have done fan mods using quieter fans. Also, with DSP amps, you have more EQ flexibility AND are way lighter.

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post #117 of 175 Old 10-17-2015, 07:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Harmon isn't some ID company peddling a few products. Crown powers thousands of live venues, theaters, and concerts globally. I am pretty sure if they were a bunch of fudgers, it would be known quickly. That is why it is called pro audio. Instead of posting trivial banter, go to any website that sells Crown amps and read the reviews - 4 to 5 stars across the board. People have a hard time accepting that a $200 amp can deliver great sound quality in spades. Just come visit and I will take you to crystal clear, clean volumes that will make your ears bleed.
So they sound bad then.

correction I bet power will be 100W x 2. I couldn't care less about the reviews, for all I know they just setup PA speakers, so sound quality doesn't matter.

Whenever I've seen a amp 1khz, and 20khz the power differences between them are a fair bit.

SNR is pretty bad. My amps are something like 120dB

This is av "science" so post tests of pro amps with bench tests with both channels driven, 20hz-20khz.
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post #118 of 175 Old 10-17-2015, 07:33 AM
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You troll is so many threads. Are you that bored? I wish your signal to noise ratio was as good as your amps. All I hear out of you is noise.

Seriously, go waste other peoples time. Harmon does more testing than ANY speaker and amp producer. Feel free to give their pro audio folks a call. I am sure they can provide you with all the testing and verification you need. And ear bleeding is a reference to volume, not distorted output.

Ignore list......

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post #119 of 175 Old 10-17-2015, 07:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
You troll is so many threads. Are you that bored? I wish your signal to noise ratio was as good as your amps. All I hear out of you is noise.

Seriously, go waste other peoples time. Harmon does more testing than ANY speaker and amp producer. Feel free to give their pro audio folks a call. I am sure they can provide you with all the testing and verification you need. And ear bleeding is a reference to volume, not distorted output.

Ignore list......

I guess you can't back up your claims. And insults doesn't make your claims fact, it just shows I am right.

Harmon haven't provided proper output figures. Crosstalk, SNR is pretty poor.
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post #120 of 175 Old 10-17-2015, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
I guess you can't back up your claims. And insults doesn't make your claims fact, it just shows I am right.

Harmon haven't provided proper output figures. Crosstalk, SNR is pretty poor.
Ok, then take Molon's suggestion and call Harmon. And if I may, set up a blind test with some folks and hear if you can make out any differences at any volume level. Because in the end, forget SNR and the other stats, it's what sounds good to YOU.

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