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-   -   Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550 (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/2194337-arcam-avr-850-arcam-avr-550-a.html)

wse 11-04-2015 03:54 PM

Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550
 
Arcam unveils first Dolby Atmos receivers with Dirac Live at CEDIA Expo 2015

http://www.insideci.co.uk/ImageGen.a...50-front2.jpeg Arcam has unveiled its first Dolby Atmos AV receivers at CEDIA Expo 2015. The new AVR550 and AVR850 models feature seven HDMI 2.0a inputs with HDCP2.2, as well as high-end room correcting technology from Dirac Research. The pair feature three HDMI outs, two for dual display use and a third for multiroom. System control is offered through IR, RS232, IP and Arcam's own iOS MusicLife app. The duo also mark the return of the volume knob to Arcam’s AVR design.

Both receivers are 7.1 designs - the headline AVR850 offers Class G amplification. Arcam has told Inside CI that it is also working on a four channel power amp for those users looking to install a 7.1.4 Atmos configuration. The receivers are also DTS:X ready - and will be firmware upgradable as and when the software becomes available.

In the meantime, the focus is very much on Dolby Atmos “Dolby’s innovative approach to delivering sound that better connects viewers with the richness, detail and clarity of the on screen experience is something we are excited to deliver to our customers”, says Arcam CEO Charlie Brennan. “The ability to now deliver moving audio that fills the room with breathtaking detail and control is a ground-breaking achievement in the home theatre environment. In addition, Dirac Live for Arcam will provide users with world class precision room equalisation with amazingly transparent results.”
The AVR550 and AV850 will retail for £2,400 and £4,200 respectively, and will ship in November.


http://www.chromapure.co.uk/files/AV...5_C%281%29.pdf

Class G amplification

- http://www.arcam.co.uk/ugc/tor/a49/C...y_150714_A.pdf

- http://www.updatemydynaco.com/Histor...nts/ClassG.pdf

They also use class G amplification on this really neat speaker http://www.focal.com/usa/en/sm6/538-trio6-be.html

dlinsley 11-04-2015 09:07 PM

$3400 for the 550 and $6000 for the 850: http://www.twice.com/news/receivers/...-22-avrs/58886

NorthSky 11-04-2015 09:40 PM

The 850 oozes quality and streamline design (industrial modern simple classic hierarchy) all over. :cool: //// Hits the sweet spot...'G' class.

madhuski 11-05-2015 02:18 AM

Very intriguing to see Dirac finally in a receiver

NorthSky 11-05-2015 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madhuski (Post 38670937)
Very intriguing to see Dirac finally in a receiver

Other receiver's manufacturers are closely watching the deep interest that it is creating, and will follow the financial revenues that they can deduct from that. ...Adding up to their own financial gains for the real benefit of their customers. Smart customers will vote with their wallets where it counts, in the sound. ...For our movies and music @ home.

Smart move from Arcam.

bkeeler10 11-05-2015 11:49 AM

16 Attachment(s)
I for one am very interested in the 550. That piece and Anthem's MRX720 are in top running for me for my next receiver. The main things affecting my choice will be price and room correction technology. So I suppose the question I would need to answer is which RC is the better one? They're both highly regarded of course. And then, if Dirac seems to be better, is it really $900 better?

steady teddy 11-05-2015 12:10 PM

No news on a Preamp with Dirac?

mmiles 11-05-2015 02:28 PM

I don't think Arcam will offer a prepro. This is according to a frien that attended CEDIA and Arcam's private meetings.

Now Audio Control will have the MAESTRO M9 built on a similar OEM platform.

Probably late December 2015 or a tick later in January 2016.

mmiles 11-05-2015 02:29 PM

I don't think Arcam will offer a prepro. This is according to a frien that attended CEDIA and Arcam's private meetings.

Now Audio Control will have the MAESTRO M9 built on a similar OEM platform.

Probably late December 2015 or a tick later in January 2016.

NorthSky 11-05-2015 05:43 PM

This is Arcam's latest pre/pro...and according to Mike above; no immediate replacement: ♦ http://www.arcam.co.uk/products,FMJ,...sors,av950.htm

DS-21 11-05-2015 07:27 PM

Do the two both have full Dirac? Any other DSP limitations in the $3400 one vs the $6k one?


$2600 will buy a lot of fine separate amplifier!

mmiles 11-06-2015 02:24 PM

The other alternative, AC, is working with Dirac to expand the channels beyond 7.

Not sure if that will trickle down to the Arcam's.

It depends if it is the OEM or AC I suppose.

mmiles 11-06-2015 03:19 PM

The other alternative, AC, is working with Dirac to expand the channels beyond 7.

Not sure if that will trickle down to the Arcam's.

It depends if it is the OEM or AC I suppose.

wse 11-07-2015 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmiles (Post 38719321)
The other alternative, AC, is working with Dirac to expand the channels beyond 7.

Not sure if that will trickle down to the Arcam's.

It depends if it is the OEM or AC I suppose.

Who is AC?

dlinsley 11-07-2015 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wse (Post 38738433)
Who is AC?

Audio Control Atmos announcement

bkeeler10 11-07-2015 08:51 PM

16 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by mmiles (Post 38720641)
The other alternative, AC, is working with Dirac to expand the channels beyond 7.

Not sure if that will trickle down to the Arcam's.

It depends if it is the OEM or AC I suppose.

Are you saying that the Arcam units will not have Dirac on all channels, and only the Audio Control units will?

NorthSky 11-08-2015 03:54 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Those two new Arcam receivers are 7.1-channel receivers (5.1.2 Dolby Atmos/DTS:X) with Dirac Live (7.1).
? channels EQued by Dirac Live...in the AVR850 and in the AVR550?

http://audioxpress.com/article/Arcam...IRAC-Live.html

If you want a 7.1.2 (or 5.1.4) Atmos/DTS:X setup equalized with Dirac Live you need another stereo amp, and more Dirac Live?
________

This is the Arcam SR250 stereo receiver with Dirac Live.

Attachment 1046513
________

And if you want a 9.1.2 (or 7.1.4) Atmos/DTS:X setup all equalized with Dirac Live you need two additional stereo amps (Arcam is also working on a
4-channel amp), and more Dirac Live?

So, it's going to be quite expensive to have a full Dolby Atmos/DTS:X 7.1.4 Arcam setup with all twelve channels equalized by Dirac Live.
That is unless more than eight channels are EQued with Dirac Live, for people who want that full 7.1.4 Atmos setup. You would think so though.


P.S. My opinion, based on my own deduction from various readings over @ other forums from the UK.
Arcam @ this point in time is letting us all speculate because their press release is missing vital info (about Dirac Live; how many channels).

DS-21 11-08-2015 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthSky (Post 38765521)
Those two new Arcam receivers are 5.1.2 Dolby Atmos/DTS:X receivers with Dirac Live (7.1).
They are 7.1-channel receivers with 8 channels EQued by Dirac Live...the AVR850 and AVR550.

http://audioxpress.com/article/Arcam...IRAC-Live.html

If you want a 7.1.2 (or 5.1.4) Atmos/DTS:X setup equalized with Dirac Live you need another Arcam receiver, the SR250 stereo receiver, with Dirac Live for two channels.

Can you cite where the article you posted says any of that? Direct quotations, please.

NorthSky 11-08-2015 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DS-21 (Post 38766641)
Can you cite where the article you posted says any of that? Direct quotations, please.

Correction made. ...For 7.1.2 or 7.1.4 additional amp(s) are required, and that SR250 stereo receiver with Dirac Live can't do (no Main Ins).

https://www.avforums.com/threads/arc...-live.1985785/

NorthSky 11-08-2015 06:32 PM

2 Attachment(s)
AVR850 back:
Attachment 1046649
______

AVR550 back:
Attachment 1046657

wse 11-08-2015 06:57 PM

ARCAM will cover 7.1.4 with DIRAC

NorthSky 11-08-2015 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wse (Post 38769281)
ARCAM will cover 7.1.4 with DIRAC

I looked everywhere; in the UK, on the back panel (made in Vietnam), gave a link to AVForums in the UK, checked all Arcam news, videos, ...
and couldn't find confirmation of what you just said. If it does Bravo. That's a very good augur for the future, for other receiver's manufacturers, pre/pros.

carp 11-08-2015 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wse (Post 38769281)
ARCAM will cover 7.1.4 with DIRAC

It has everything I want... except DTS X, which is obviously not Arcam's fault.

NorthSky 11-08-2015 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carp (Post 38770201)
It has everything I want... except DTS X, which is obviously not Arcam's fault.

It is DTS:X Ready though; through a firmware upgrade. ...Sometimes next year, just like all the other manufacturers; no one has DTS:X yet.

"The receivers are also DTS:X ready - and will be firmware upgradable as and when the software becomes available."

NorthSky 11-09-2015 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wse (Post 38769281)
ARCAM will cover 7.1.4 with DIRAC

It doesn't appear so:

https://www.avforums.com/threads/arc...-live.1985785/ => Page 3, post 84

Right here: https://www.avforums.com/threads/arc...#post-22780154

carp 11-09-2015 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthSky (Post 38770785)
It is DTS:X Ready though; through a firmware upgrade. ...Sometimes next year, just like all the other manufacturers; no one has DTS:X yet.

"The receivers are also DTS:X ready - and will be firmware upgradable as and when the software becomes available."


Thanks, I didn't see that but it would make me nervous to buy an AVR that doesn't have it built in. Looks like 2016 will be a better year to buy.

bkeeler10 11-09-2015 11:05 AM

16 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by carp (Post 38781697)
Thanks, I didn't see that but it would make me nervous to buy an AVR that doesn't have it built in. Looks like 2016 will be a better year to buy.

If it's any consolation, the hold up is not with Arcam but with DTS as I understand it. Every manufacturer that is offering their 2015-2016 models with DTS:X (and there are many) is in the same boat - that is, their models are DTS:X ready, pending a future firmware update to enable it once DTS:X is finalized.

darrellh44 11-09-2015 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthSky (Post 38772793)

If the AVR-550 doesn't support full DL on all 7.1.4, it sounds like the Audiocontrol AVR-7 sister product does. Here's a report from sdrucker during CEDIA on the Audiocontrol AVR-7 and AVR-9.

I stopped at the CEDIA AudioControl booth this AM, and was able to get most of our questions answered by either their sales rep or their engineer, Brandon.

First, the version of Dirac in the AVR-7/9 is the full version, supporting user defined target curves, frequency range curtains, and user-specified speaker groups. All 11 channels in a 7.1.4 system can be EQ'd. There's only one preset, so the user will need to save/load EQ files through the PC/Mac interface, which like other Dirac implementations of late, will communicate with a remote server as part of the calibration process.

As to the differences in the AVRs, AVR-7 is Class AB, and rated at both 100 W/channel for both 4 and 8 ohm, directly from the engineer. AVR-9 is Class H high current and will do 200 W @ 4 ohms and closer to 220 in 8 (they claim all channels driven). IOW the website is essentially right from their POV, if confusing. Which may be strange, unless they are steering 4 ohm speaker owners to the 9 by design IMO.

Re assignable amps-they confirmed that only two of the seven amp/speaker connectors can be changed, specifically between Zone 2, surround back, and Height 1. L/R mains are fixed and can't be reassigned, meaning that if you use a two channel external amp for L/R mains, those amp channels are 'empty'. In practice, they expect most CI customers to buy a four channel amp for heights, be running 7.1, or using one or more separate external amps for mains from their line, with the available amp channels more as a convenience feature.​

I still need to find out whether they have (or are even aware) of the cross pollenation issues with upmixers when I cycle back, as well as how they handle EQ for Dolby speakers (or just assume customers will do ceiling speakers). But ampage aside, unless you specifically want full Dirac for up to 7.1.4, as AVRs go, I don't think this product is competitive except for the novelty of Class H amps in the AVR-9, if that's your thing. For the Dirac crowd, possibly if you already have amps and/or are fussy about needing two 88As vs. an AIO solution.

One other tidbit from a local Arcam dealer. He said he can get either the AVR-550 or the AVR-7, but the AVR-7 will be 300 USD more than the Arcam version. Maybe this accounts for the 4 extra channels of Dirac in the Audiocontrol. I guess the good news is if both share the same processor platform, it should be possible to upgrade the Arcam to have Dirac for all 7.1.4 channels.

NorthSky 11-09-2015 12:24 PM

Thanks Darrell for posting ^ this info here, and like you it is also my understanding, from the readings:

1. Arcam AVR850 : "Full" Dirac Live version, and for twelve channels (7.1.4) of Dolby Atmos and DTS:X immersive audio.
2. Arcam AVR550 : "Lite" Dirac Live version, and for eight channels (5.1.2) of Dolby Atmos and DTS:X immersive audio.

This: Unofficial @ this time.

My personal opinion: This is all very good; Dirac Live with Emotiva, with Audio Control, with Arcam, and with other hi-end companies.
It's a start in the right direction, and with time it's going to improve (Dirac Live's implementation and operation), plus it's going to spread over into more receiver's and pre/pro's manufacturers, and becoming available in them less expensive receivers and pre/pros too.

Then, from eight (5.1.2) to twelve (7.1.4) channels of room EQ, and then fourteen (9.1.4), and finally sixteen (9.1.6)...for two rows of seats. ...Plus all the variables between depending of our own room's dimension and accommodation.

Dirac Live is for us what Trinnov and Datasat and JBL Synthesis and Steinway Lyngdorf and Auromax and Barco are to others.

Audyssey, ARC, YPAO, MCACC and AccuEQ and Sony's own room EQ system are superseded by superior EQ systems in the year 2015 and beyond...IMHO.
...Or unless they implement the improvements missing in their automatic EQ systems. ...With more DSP processing power from bigger or more chips.
And if not, a way to advance in combination with our laptops (more processing power in those).

...Just my opinion on the current state of affairs...Room EQ systems in our pre/pros and AV receivers today and tomorrow...with 3D sound immersion and UHD Blu-ray. ...OLED 4K 3D UHD TVs (both curved and flat, and super thin), and 4K/HDR front projectors with 48fps support.

The future looks so bright that I have to wear shades. :cool: ...No wonder I resemble my avatar. ;)

Nyal Mellor 11-09-2015 05:37 PM

Personally I am VERY excited to see Dirac Live in more AVRs and Pre-Pros. It really works! I will be getting either AC or Arcam units in for evaluation and testing once they are shipping and will be sure to blog about it!

darrellh44 11-09-2015 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor (Post 38797401)
Personally I am VERY excited to see Dirac Live in more AVRs and Pre-Pros. It really works! I will be getting either AC or Arcam units in for evaluation and testing once they are shipping and will be sure to blog about it!

Great, looking forward to your review. Do you know how soon you'll be getting one of the units in?

Nyal Mellor 11-09-2015 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darrellh44 (Post 38797905)
Great, looking forward to your review. Do you know how soon you'll be getting one of the units in?

As soon as they start shipping, Dec timeframe I think.

madhuski 11-11-2015 04:35 AM

any word how these handle low impedence speakers?

mmiles 11-11-2015 01:37 PM

AC December but more like January 2016

NorthSky 11-11-2015 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madhuski (Post 38832521)
any word how these handle low impedance speakers?

When you look @ past bench tests* of previous Arcam receivers; they are capable into 4 Ohm loads (2 channels measured).
The AVR850 should have no problem because 4 Ohms is included in its specs (check Arcam's own website).
And the AVR550 should also be capable, even if 4 Ohms is not included in its specs (when using a sub or two).

1. Arcam AVR850: http://www.arcam.co.uk/products,av-a...ers,avr850.htm
2. Arcam AVR550: http://www.arcam.co.uk/products,FMJ,...ers,avr550.htm

* Check SoundandVision online reviews of few past Arcam AV receivers: http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...cRYCSoomlzl.97

♦ Just for past info: http://www.condoraudio.com/wp-conten...ade-Repair.pdf

Parrish 11-12-2015 08:48 AM

does anyone know if the avr750 and avr850 have fans in them? my avr300 which I still have has issues with the fan noise so just wondering about these two units? thx

NorthSky 11-12-2015 07:08 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Parrish (Post 38866129)
does anyone know if the avr750 and avr850 have fans in them? my avr300 which I still have has issues with the fan noise so just wondering about these two units? thx

The AVR750 has two internal fans, so I am 99% sure that the AVR850 and AVR550 have as well.

Attachment 1054049

Parrish 11-13-2015 08:30 AM

is there a way to tone down the output sensitivity of the subwoofer preout when adjusting trim levels with spl meter? there is a major difference here when compared to avr 300.

nadyn 11-15-2015 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkeeler10 (Post 38684585)
I for one am very interested in the 550. That piece and Anthem's MRX720 are in top running for me for my next receiver. The main things affecting my choice will be price and room correction technology. So I suppose the question I would need to answer is which RC is the better one? They're both highly regarded of course. And then, if Dirac seems to be better, is it really $900 better?

Dirac, it's in his own class, those Swedish dudes all they do it's room correction :)

AVR 550 compare to MRX 720.. I'll take the Arcam any day.

mmiles 11-16-2015 07:14 AM

It's looking more like January.

DS-21 11-16-2015 05:32 PM

Any word on whether the Arcam and AudioControl units suffer from the same DSP horsepower limitation that precludes using Dolby Volume and more than 7.1 channels, like the Yamaha AVRs and the forthcoming Anthem AVMRX's (as Nick reported in the Anthem thread)?

NorthSky 11-16-2015 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DS-21 (Post 38980010)
Any word on whether the Arcam and AudioControl units suffer from the same DSP horsepower limitation that precludes using Dolby Volume and more than 7.1 channels, like the Yamaha AVRs and the forthcoming Anthem AVMRX's (as Nick reported in the Anthem thread)?

I guess I missed that part.

mmiles 11-17-2015 12:50 PM

DS-21,


Good question will try to get an answer.


__________________________________________________ _


One feature that the platforms share is pretty cool. You can use Rear LS and Rear RS for 2 of the four Dolby Atmos channels. So all you need is a 2 channel amp to run 5.x.4

gbaby 11-17-2015 02:14 PM

I have owned two Arcam products: the AVP700 and the AV9. I did not get good service from the USA dealers on either product. This was after paying retail for both products.:eek: Buy at your own peril.

NorthSky 11-17-2015 02:18 PM

I've read horror stories from owners of Arcam hi-end pre/pros and receivers; and right here too @ AVSForum. ...But that was a while ago; perhaps today they are better @ resolving passed issues? ...Only time will tell for sure.

nadyn 11-17-2015 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthSky (Post 39006618)
I've read horror stories from owners of Arcam hi-end pre/pros and receivers; and right here too @ AVSForum. ...But that was a while ago; perhaps today they are better @ resolving passed issues? ...Only time will tell for sure.

That's true, 2 lines back (the avr600 line) were absolute crap, a speaker destroyer machine, which almost bankrupted Arcam. Then a Canadian company acquired them, and who's leading that company now did a very very smart move with the Dirac.
The old fashion management didn't believe in room correction at all.
Before Dirac in Arcam the best choice was Anthem, now that has changed. AC could be the better option(design and made in USA), time will tell.
I own an MRX310 and it's still not quite there in terms of surround performance.
Cheers

mmiles 11-17-2015 05:12 PM

I have no experience with Arcam but owned and installed AC products.

Amps are rock solid and a true value. I never installed the AVR's

I did own and have sold the Maestro M3/M4 prepro. These units indeed had issues. That said AC stood by them even after warranty expired on one unit. In fact I still use one today.

The OEM is the same for both platforms as I have mentioned. Just look at the back panels on the units we have discussed. I'm sure the OSD menus are stroke for stroke too.

I have been told there have been big strides made in the product.

Filou6901 11-19-2015 01:35 AM

I have the Arcam AVR 850 ordered !
Question :
Have Arcam a German Menu ?
The Arcam have 2 x Sub out , both edited with Dirac ?
The Setting from Crossover is 10 Hz steps ?
Sorry, come from Germany,my English is not so good !!!
Very Thanks !

NorthSky 11-19-2015 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filou6901 (Post 39048378)
I have the Arcam AVR 850 ordered !
Questions :

1. Have Arcam a German Menu ?
2. The Arcam have 2 x Sub out , both edited with Dirac ?
3. The Setting from Crossover is 10 Hz steps ?


Sorry, come from Germany,my English is not so good !!!
Very Thanks !

1. Page 51 => http://www.arcam.co.uk/ugc/tor/avr85...-IT-R-SC_1.pdf
{I don't know if it is mentioned in that manual (no it's not mentioned); you probably mean the GUI Menu - German language. ...I bet it has.}

2. I don't know if the two Sub outputs are equalized separately and then summed up as one by Dirac Live.

3. In the manual, starting page 51 from the pdf link above.
It very well might be indicated (no it isn't; I just checked - but I would think so for such a hi-end AV receiver).

* Sorry, I am French Canadian, my English is not so good.

flax 11-24-2015 03:03 AM

One aspect worth noting is 96KHz / 24 bit support... in my opinion that should be more than enough even for the most discriminating listeners:
http://www.arcam.co.uk/ugc/tor/avr850/Dirac Flier/Dirac Live for ARCAM.pdf
The sofa image in that flyer may lead to think that measurements should be taken in one horizontal plane but that is not the case... this larger one is probably better:

http://diracdocs.com/sofa2.png
:) Flavio

nadyn 11-24-2015 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flax (Post 39182346)
One aspect worth noting is 96kHz / 24 bit support... in my opinion that should be more than enough even for the most discriminating listeners:
:) Flavio

Almost all the AVRs out there if not all, will down-mix to 48kHz before any processing.
Only few pre/pro are able to process at 96kHz.

So having Dirac processing at 96kHz for 11 channels in an AVR that's pretty cool I'd say.
Cheers

flax 11-25-2015 05:02 AM

This is an image that I have admittedly "stolen" from this post:
https://www.avforums.com/threads/arc...#post-22903068

http://diracdocs.com/ArcamChannelLevels.PNG

Some forumers are reporting about their first hand experience with the Arcam units
Flavio

DS-21 11-25-2015 08:59 AM

Any word from users on whether Dolby Volume and Atmos work at the same time?

Also,

Quote:

Originally Posted by flax (Post 39216818)
This is an image that I have admittedly "stolen" from this post:
https://www.avforums.com/threads/arc...#post-22903068
Flavio

What's this "Interestingly the height channels have all the pre-calibration measurements, and feature a target, but as soon as you run the optimization (and talks to the Dirac server), the target, and post predictions disappear from the height section."?

(From your above link)

Filou6901 11-25-2015 09:54 AM

Dirac does work , when Loudspeaker connect PreAmp out ?
So you need Laptop for the Arcam Dirac, or TV Display ?

flax 11-26-2015 08:28 AM

@ DS-21
my understanding is that the height channels (in case of a 7.1.4 configuration) are "italic" and "greyed out" because they are corrected for gain and delay but not for FR and IR (not unreasonable for an helicopter in the sky, rain, etc..)

@ Filou6901
yes, a full fledged computer is necessary for the initial measurements and calibration

DS-21 11-26-2015 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flax (Post 39250346)
@ DS-21
my understanding is that the height channels (in case of a 7.1.4 configuration) are "italic" and "greyed out" because they are corrected for gain and delay but not for FR and IR (not unreasonable for an helicopter in the sky, rain, etc..)

I think that is extremely unreasonable, actually. Unreasonable enough to disqualify these boxes for me as serious alternative at their price points. Maybe at $1500, or about the cost of a generic AVR with preouts and a miniDSP Dirac box, that would be a reasonable compromise. But at bleeding edge (for an AVR) pricing, no way.

I could care less about helicopters and rain. I'm interested in reproducing the acoustics of music performance venues.

Is the real issue that there's not enough DSP horsepower in the current chips to do things properly? If so, then the choice to raise sampling rate to 96kHz instead of implementing EQ properly was a mistake, because that wastes resources for a dumb marketing point at the cost of a useful feature.

I thought I was going to buy a new AVR or pre-pro in 2016. But given the crippling limits that are emerging in better models (no loudness compensation when going beyond 7.1 channels, incomplete room correction) I've yet to see a product compelling enough to replace out my base model ca. 2011 Anthem.

flax 11-26-2015 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DS-21 (Post 39251186)
...the choice to raise sampling rate to 96kHz instead of implementing EQ properly was a mistake, because that wastes resources

That's a good point so I've investigated and from what I've heard the 96 KHz support is for Stereo while multichannel is at 48 KHz because of DSP limits.

Flavio

mmiles 11-26-2015 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nadyn (Post 39208674)
Almost all the AVRs out there if not all, will down-mix to 48kHz before any processing.
Only few pre/pro are able to process at 96kHz.

So having Dirac processing at 96kHz for 11 channels in an AVR that's pretty cool I'd say.
Cheers

So what pre/pro are at 96K?

It seams it has been stated the Arcam/AC is 96K in stereo but 48K in multi channel

bkeeler10 11-26-2015 04:28 PM

16 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by DS-21 (Post 39251186)

I think that is extremely unreasonable, actually. Unreasonable enough to disqualify these boxes for me as serious alternative at their price points. Maybe at $1500, or about the cost of a generic AVR with preouts and a miniDSP Dirac box, that would be a reasonable compromise. But at bleeding edge (for an AVR) pricing, no way.

I agree that the notion that the height channels are of lesser importance when it comes to EQ is false. Do we know if it's just the 550 that does this, or does the 850 also omit Dirac EQ for the heights?

nadyn 11-26-2015 08:47 PM

[QUOTE=mmiles;39254170]So what pre/pro are at 96K?

Anthem D2v.

But in reality there are not many BD disks on the market that are mixed at 24bit/96K for surround.

DS-21 11-27-2015 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flax (Post 39252634)
That's a good point so I've investigated and from what I've heard the 96 KHz support is for Stereo while multichannel is at 48 KHz because of DSP limits.

Flavio

Thanks for the clarification. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that, at least as of the upcoming product cycle, the audio DSP's suitable for AVRs available in cost/quantity the smaller players (e.g. Anthem, Arcam/AudioControl) can reasonably pass on to consumers aren't yet powerful enough to do the full job needed for immersive audio: 7.1.4 channels of decoding and/or upmixing, EQ on the level of Dirac/ARC for all channels, sophisticated loudness compensation for people who care about maintaining their hearing. I would love to be wrong about that!

Too bad, but understandable. I remember when Audyssey AVRs didn't have enough DSP for full volume control, which led to companies like Emotiva making a good living selling high-gain amps. These kinds of technology upgrades are always messy.

Denoontje 11-27-2015 02:00 PM

Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550
 
My info is on the 850 fulltime direc all channels!
Separate settings for 2 subs.


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nadyn 11-28-2015 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denoontje (Post 39278890)
My info is on the 850 fulltime direc all channels!
Separate settings for 2 subs.


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were did you find that info or is there an official statement that the 550 it's not full Dirac?

Filou6901 11-28-2015 04:44 AM

Question to AVR 850 :
I have 5.1 System + Front High
I need a Power Amplifier , additionally ?

NorthSky 11-28-2015 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nadyn (Post 39290314)
were did you find that info or is there an official statement that the 550 it's not full Dirac?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filou6901 (Post 39290746)
Question to AVR 850 :
I have 5.1 System + Front High
I need a Power Amplifier , additionally ?

♦ Best forum thread for all info: https://www.avforums.com/threads/arc...-live.1985785/

NorthSky 11-29-2015 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkeeler10 (Post 39259594)
I agree that the notion that the height channels are of lesser importance when it comes to EQ is false. Do we know if it's just the 550 that does this, or does the 850 also omit Dirac EQ for the heights?

https://www.avforums.com/threads/arc...#post-22861124

NorthSky 11-30-2015 11:15 AM

♠ Quick outlook (Arcam AVR850) :: http://www.areadvd.de/tests/special-...einmesssystem/

* Use the [Translation] feature of your browser (normally indicated on your top toolbar, or @ the end of the URL address space - top right - ▀▄ ).

madhuski 12-05-2015 04:49 AM

@mmiles - do you know what the street prices of the audiocontrol units will be?

mmiles 12-05-2015 05:24 AM

6200 and 4600 USD

I'm sure they have to list higher than Arcam based on agreement with OEM . They used to list lower.

However I understand cost are about the same.

NorthSky 12-05-2015 12:23 PM

AudioControl new receivers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mmiles (Post 39491394)
6200 and 4600 USD

I'm sure they have to list higher than Arcam based on agreement with OEM . They used to list lower.

However I understand cost are about the same.

The latest MSRP (USD) prices I saw:

- AVR-9 = $6,200
- AVR-7 = $4,200

Maybe they're going up in price to keep in line with the increasingly speedy inflation? ...Sound pressure? ;-)

mmiles 12-05-2015 08:12 PM

^^^
AVR7 - MSRP is indeed $4200 USD

my mistake.

NorthSky 12-05-2015 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmiles (Post 39510970)
AVR7 - MSRP is indeed $4200 USD

my mistake.

No sweat; small stuff. ;):D

madhuski 12-06-2015 05:08 AM

thanks - debating wether to wait for one of these, or give the xmc a try

nadyn 12-06-2015 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madhuski (Post 39515442)
thanks - debating wether to wait for one of these, or give the xmc a try

If your are happy with HDMI 1.4b and you have a separate power amp, that might be an option given they have 20% if at the moment :)

flax 12-08-2015 03:05 AM

Comments from forumers who have actually tried the first available Arcam receivers have started being posted:
https://www.avforums.com/threads/arc...#post-22950694

Flavio

markus767 12-08-2015 09:57 AM

236 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by DS-21 (Post 39251186)
Is the real issue that there's not enough DSP horsepower in the current chips to do things properly? If so, then the choice to raise sampling rate to 96kHz instead of implementing EQ properly was a mistake, because that wastes resources for a dumb marketing point at the cost of a useful feature.

Sounds like business as usual to me :) For example, an AVR/pre-pro with proper automated bass management? Doesn't exist unless we're talking about 5 figure price tags.

DS-21 12-08-2015 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus767 (Post 39575242)
Sounds like business as usual to me :) For example, an AVR/pre-pro with proper automated bass management? Doesn't exist unless we're talking about 5 figure price tags.

What don't you like about Anthem's implementation?

markus767 12-08-2015 02:50 PM

236 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by DS-21 (Post 39583778)
What don't you like about Anthem's implementation?

Is it single speaker optimization or does it (also) optimize the combined response of sub(s) and satellites? Spatially distributed mic positions? Any weighting applied?

NorthSky 12-08-2015 03:04 PM

What do you propose Markus, get better jobs and Trinnov? ...Or get two miniDSP DDRC-88A black boxes?

DS-21 12-08-2015 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus767 (Post 39584010)
Is it single speaker optimization or does it (also) optimize the combined response of sub(s) and satellites? Spatially distributed mic positions? Any weighting applied?

Single-speaker unfortunately, but they try to sculpt the individual components to roll off predictably. See Rich. No idea about weighting.

markus767 12-08-2015 11:44 PM

236 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by DS-21 (Post 39585642)
Single-speaker unfortunately, but they try to sculpt the individual components to roll off predictably. See Rich. No idea about weighting.

Statistically that's probably not any better than flattening the response and applying the crossover the AVR provides (Audyssey, Dirac Live, etc.).
The problem in a bass managed system is that at lower frequencies we only hear a combination of several speakers – sub and C, sub and L and R, etc. – hence optimizing single speakers ignores the real issues digital room correction could solve.

nadyn 12-09-2015 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DS-21 (Post 39583778)
What don't you like about Anthem's implementation?

Simply, no proper delay setup and it's in 30cm/foot increment(not granular enough), damn critical if one really wants to proper integrate a Sub(s).
Cheers

nadyn 12-12-2015 09:47 PM

Any happy owner out there that can give us a quick review of the AVR 550?
Cheers

erwinfrombelgium 12-21-2015 01:50 PM

Subscribed!

Atmos 7.1.4 and Dirac Live? Very interesting!

I suppose amps cannot be re-asigned? Like if you add a 5 channel amp for LCRS, you cannot use the internal amps for the Height channels?

Denoontje 12-21-2015 02:56 PM

No only the last 2 surround/height channels can be asigned. Via de preouts you can connect a poweramp.


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cdoggy 12-29-2015 01:02 AM

Good review (maybe you have to he google translation) is now online on areadvd dot de . i can`t post links so far but use the search funtion (german "suche") or browse the latest test. You will find an xxl test of the AVR550!

i think that will answer some of our questions....

erwinfrombelgium 12-29-2015 03:35 AM

Link:
AVR 550 • Area DVD

Thanks!

NorthSky 12-29-2015 11:03 PM

In that review (from the German site areadvd) I see only seven channels EQued by Dirac Live; no Back surrounds, no second pair of Height surrounds, and no Subwoofer.

My question is: Is this Dirac Live for only seven channels or the full twelve channels on a Dolby Atmos/DTS:X full setup (7.1.4)?

I mean it's very nice to see Dirac Live now implemented inside the first AV receiver with a review. But for three-thousand European clams (about 6,000 loonies or $6,000 Canadian dollars), I sure want more than seven (or eight) channels being equalized by Dirac Live. Or might as well stick with the Emotiva XMC-1 pre/pro for $2,500 USD.
...Or buy a receiver (or pre/pro) that can do Dolby Atmos and DTS:X 7.1.4 and add a Dirac Live black box for one thousand clams (USD).

* This review, in my opinion, is less than complete...and sounds more like advertisement with prose to me.
For a serious machine like this, with a new serious EQ system that uses the computational power of your laptop, and with serious money asked for...I want the real pudding from areadvd staff, with much more than just one page. If areadvd is serious about their website audio/video magazine, they got to deliver. And here, again, they come up short of what they can do.

So the question now is this: Are they doing this as a favor to the companies they represent, or as a favor to us the customers who seriously want to learn it all?
Well, I think that each intelligent person here can answer that question on their own.

That review definitely needs a Take 2, with much more depth. I doubt that it will happen, so it is one member from somewhere who will take the real challenge for all our benefit.
I will investigate, and research further for concrete facts.

♦ Arcam/Dirac Live ... nice. But!

♦♦ Marantz/Denon || Auro-3D/Audyssey XT32 and add an external or two Dirac Live black boxes ... nice too. Arcam doesn't offer Auro-3D as an option.

And what's the best deal/value/combination/performance overall? ...And simplicity too. ...Plus the other best features (streaming and @ what kind of res). ...And! HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 for UHD with Arcam?

Fifteen kilos is not very heavy for a premium receiver. You need additional four power amps...so add to that 3,000 € Euros (German £).

erwinfrombelgium 12-30-2015 05:37 AM

Dirac is only 7 channels + LFE...

I still believe it's a fine offer for the price. If it were me, I would add a XPA-7 for LCR and the 4 Heights and leave the Heights un-diraced.

Otherwise I'd still need the XPA-7 and pay the same 3K for a 11.2 Denon AVR + miniDSP with Dirac for 8 channels and get the same sonic results. But with the Arcam, there's one less ADA conversion and one less box to instal.

Edit: with the Denon you have 9 channels on board, so a XPA-5 would suffice. Maybe even less if the internal amps are interchangeable from Front to Height, which I doubt.

NorthSky 12-30-2015 12:46 PM

1. Dirac Live for 8 channels - got that.
2. 3300 € = $3,610 USD = $5,010 Cdn (as of the exchange today). ...And roughly 2400 £
3. For Atmos/dtsX 7.1.4 full setup you need additional amplification...on top of the MSRP price from just above (2).
4. Still four (4) channels won't be Dirac EQued.
5. For a Canadian guy who starts building a 7.1.4 Dolby Atmos/dtsX setup, and who has no amplification yet, the Arcam AVR550 (five grands...MSRP), additional amplication for the other four channels (Rotel used multich amp for about $1,500), and of course the four overhead Atmox/dtX speakers (another Cdn grand or $1,500 for better speakers), that's roughly a $8,000 Cnd proposition (MSRP). ...That is quite serious dough for an incomplete Dirac Live sound system! ...Even when shaving off 25% of that sum.

And the Arcam AVR850 won't be any cheaper, and not more Dirac Live channels either.

Brief, we're not there yet, not till we can have @ least twelve channels of Dirac Live EQ (sixteen preferably).

____________

* Fifteen kilos (15.5 kg = 34 pounds) is quite light for a premium receiver that retails for over $5,000 Canadian loonies! ...Over $3,600 USD!

erwinfrombelgium 12-30-2015 01:38 PM

The XMR-1 promises what you and I want, but it will be more expensive still.

I have all the amps, though! Bought 2 used Marantz MM8003 (8ch each, payed about €750 each) to complement the XPR-5 for 15 speakers + tri-amped LCR.

NorthSky 12-30-2015 02:28 PM

Erwin, Happy New Year, and to all your family and friends! :)

* If Emotiva can get a pre/pro with sixteen channels of Dirac Live EQ, Dolby Atmos and dts:X newer 3D sound decoders, HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 for UHD pass through, streaming a bunch of music/movie apps in high res, asynchronous multiple USB ports (all jitter-free), AKM Premium Verita DACs all across in dual balanced (differential) configuration (that's thirty-two DACs total, or sixteen stereo ones, or four 8-channel DAC chips), AM/FM HD Radio, Phono jacks, Headphone jack, and for about five grands ($USD list), more or less; then others can do to. ...Marantz, Anthem, Onkyo/Integra, and for less. ...I think.

Plus Erwin, tell me please, in your best estimation, how long till Emotiva delivers the goods? ...I mean, if history is a fair measure gauge.

erwinfrombelgium 01-01-2016 11:44 AM

Likewise, Bob and all others reading, Happy New Year! May you all stay healthy.

Who knows, maybe Arcam will have a competing preamp by the end of the year. I would certainly look into it. But I do have an extra 40% off card for an Emotiva preamp, so for me it will be $3K + shipping + 30% duties and VAT, hence about the price of a Marantz 8802 for me.

I honestly don't know if the Emotiva will indeed be real in the first half of the year as they promised, but if it's later, this gives me more time to build cool ceiling speakers :)

mmiles 01-01-2016 12:18 PM

Audio Control hopes to address the Dirac 7.1 matter but no time table.

Pre orders filled. Next batch coming in soon!

[email protected] 01-03-2016 06:56 PM

AVR 850 or stick with separates?
 
I currently have an Arcam AVP700 pre/pro and a Moon Aurora 5 ch Amp - 200 WPC. I was waiting for a new pre/pro from Arcam but that may not come for quite a while. The AVR850 looks really nice though. But, would I be foolish to go from a separate 200wpc amp to this integrated Class G amp at around 110wpc. Would I be taking a step backwards in sound quality?

I'm don't want to give up my Moon but something tells me I will be happier with the 850.

mmiles 01-03-2016 07:03 PM

You can use the Audio Control AVR7 ( Arcam AVR550) as a prepro.

Audio Control Maestro M9 is a prepro only option. The DACs and audio circuirty are an improvement over the AVR product but the HMI video section is the same.

[email protected] 01-03-2016 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 40283114)
I currently have an Arcam AVP700 pre/pro and a Moon Aurora 5 ch Amp - 200 WPC. I was waiting for a new pre/pro from Arcam but that may not come for quite a while. The AVR850 looks really nice though. But, would I be foolish to go from a separate 200wpc amp to this integrated Class G amp at around 110wpc. Would I be taking a step backwards in sound quality?

I'm don't want to give up my Moon but something tells me I will be happier with the 850.

Is Arcam and AudioControl related? These units are virtually identical?

erwinfrombelgium 01-04-2016 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 40283114)
I currently have an Arcam AVP700 pre/pro and a Moon Aurora 5 ch Amp - 200 WPC. I was waiting for a new pre/pro from Arcam but that may not come for quite a while. The AVR850 looks really nice though. But, would I be foolish to go from a separate 200wpc amp to this integrated Class G amp at around 110wpc. Would I be taking a step backwards in sound quality?

I'm don't want to give up my Moon but something tells me I will be happier with the 850.

It depends on your speakers: if they are very efficient (95 dB or more), then 110 Watt should do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmiles (Post 40283274)
You can use the Audio Control AVR7 ( Arcam AVR550) as a prepro.

Audio Control Maestro M9 is a prepro only option. The DACs and audio circuirty are an improvement over the AVR product but the HMI video section is the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 40284978)
Is Arcam and AudioControl related? These units are virtually identical?

I am only counting 8 pre-outs on the M9. No Atmos then?

Selden Ball 01-04-2016 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium (Post 40299346)
I am only counting 8 pre-outs on the M9. No Atmos then?

There are 8 XLR "ear level" outputs and 13 RCA outputs, one for a subwoofer, four for Atmos. The Atmos RCA outputs are just above the Surround L and Surround Back L XLR connections.

http://www.audiocontrol.com/wp-conte...ro-m9-back.jpg

erwinfrombelgium 01-04-2016 12:24 PM

I missed those, thanks!

Price?


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