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post #31 of 70 Old 11-11-2015, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post
It would be odd if a 2nd tier product could outperform the Flagship.
I would agree with you if both products were from the same generation.

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post #32 of 70 Old 11-11-2015, 03:00 PM
 
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If I were looking around, and after my D&M Group experience via their "refurbished" 4520 units I know what you guys mean; Denon has indeed soured my experience, won't recommend a Denon refurb and for all I know that goes for Marantz refurbs and I'm tentative on new units. While the esoteric stuff isn't interesting, maybe something along the lines of Emotiva XMC-1 or miniDSP Dirac gear would be my next move as I'd really like to play with Dirac. Maybe Pioneer's top of the line but after my Pioneer 919 finally totally crapped out recently (but still only 4 years old) I'm a little touchy there, too ..... Onkyo's AccuEQ doesn't even sound interesting.
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post #33 of 70 Old 11-11-2015, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
If I were looking around, and after my D&M Group experience via their "refurbished" 4520 units I know what you guys mean; Denon has indeed soured my experience, won't recommend a Denon refurb and for all I know that goes for Marantz refurbs and I'm tentative on new units. While the esoteric stuff isn't interesting, maybe something along the lines of Emotiva XMC-1 or miniDSP Dirac gear would be my next move as I'd really like to play with Dirac. Maybe Pioneer's top of the line but after my Pioneer 919 finally totally crapped out recently (but still only 4 years old) I'm a little touchy there, too ..... Onkyo's AccuEQ doesn't even sound interesting.

D&M makes great tol products, the 4311's built like a tank, but 3-4 years ago their service facility in Rockaway, NJ, not far from their home office, scratched the finish on my AVR to the extent they replaced the unit after much haggling. Bypassed an authorized local repair to ship the unit at my expense to NJ thinking the result would be a better repair. Lesson learned.
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post #34 of 70 Old 11-11-2015, 03:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bmcn View Post
D&M makes great tol products, the 4311's built like a tank, but 3-4 years ago their service facility in Rockaway, NJ, not far from their home office, scratched the finish on my AVR to the extent they replaced the unit after much haggling. Bypassed an authorized local repair to ship the unit at my expense to NJ thinking the result would be a better repair. Lesson learned.
Hard to think of the 4520 as a tank...altho with modern tanks being run by computers/electronics maybe that's not a bad comparison IMHO a replacement unit should come with another warranty equal to at least that what it would be as if that unit had been sold; while I understand the original commitment with the original sale is say only 2 or 3 years of warranty, to get a replacement that lasts 6 months just would piss me off but further, it reflects the quality of the company's products and customer service.
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post #35 of 70 Old 11-11-2015, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Hard to think of the 4520 as a tank...altho with modern tanks being run by computers/electronics maybe that's not a bad comparison IMHO a replacement unit should come with another warranty equal to at least that what it would be as if that unit had been sold; while I understand the original commitment with the original sale is say only 2 or 3 years of warranty, to get a replacement that lasts 6 months just would piss me off but further, it reflects the quality of the company's products and customer service.
Understand that; there's an indoor virtual reality based infantry/SWAT training facility down the road from me.

If you're interested in a great laugh reading warranty fud hysteria and understanding the agenda of some posters check out the ECTV Buying Experience thread on the Plasma board.

Last edited by bmcn; 11-11-2015 at 05:08 PM.
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post #36 of 70 Old 11-11-2015, 11:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The Denon 4311 has the 'lesser' 8 ch dacs and someone on the 4520 thread who upgraded from a 4311 to a 4520 said they couldn't hear the difference with music. Hope that helps.
If it was coming directly from YOU, then I would rest easy.

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Don't know if you are an Audyssey fan, but people who switched from xt 32 to Dirac RC claim it's a big improvement; not certain if Dirac recognizes multiple subs.
Use only 1 sub.


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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
If I were looking around, and after my D&M Group experience via their "refurbished" 4520 units I know what you guys mean; Denon has indeed soured my experience, won't recommend a Denon refurb and for all I know that goes for Marantz refurbs and I'm tentative on new units.
There are a lot of us out there unhappy with Denon refurbs.

I'm a little surprised the Japanese brands have fallen off in terms of quality.
Years ago, they had a very good rep.
I dunno, maybe it has something to do with moving their manufacturing off-shore...



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post #37 of 70 Old 11-12-2015, 01:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by oink View Post


There are a lot of us out there unhappy with Denon refurbs.

I'm a little surprised the Japanese brands have fallen off in terms of quality.
Years ago, they had a very good rep.
I dunno, maybe it has something to do with moving their manufacturing off-shore...
Probably more to do with the current ownership of the brand. How "Japanese" is D&M anyways? Maybe they can turn it around but the complaints around here seem to be picking up if anything....
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post #38 of 70 Old 11-12-2015, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post
Use only 1 sub.
If your going whole hog, a second is highly recommended, particularly for music.

Last edited by bmcn; 11-12-2015 at 02:42 AM.
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post #39 of 70 Old 11-12-2015, 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by kingwiggi View Post
The Denon X7200WA can be run in full pre/pro mode with all of the internal amps switched off, this is how I run mine. IMHO it still lags a little behind the XMC-1 in terms of its pure audio capability (dirac rc probably has a lot to do with that) but it gets ticks in all of the other boxes.
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Although I run it as a pre/pro, unfortunately, my 4520ci internal amps cannot be turned-off.
Both the 4520CI and the X7200W use the same AMP ASSIGN = Pre Amp mode, in that the internal amps are not switched off, rather simply that the signal is shunted from getting to the amps.
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post #40 of 70 Old 11-12-2015, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post
It would be odd if a 2nd tier product could outperform the Flagship.
The HDAM pre-amps on the 2014 AV7702 / 2015 AV7702MKII and 2015 AV8802A were upgraded from the HDAM pre-amps used on the 2013 AV8801. There have reportedly been quite a few AV8801 owners that moved to the AV7702 and reported improved audio quality as a result.
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post #41 of 70 Old 11-12-2015, 03:13 AM
 
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If your going whole hog, a second is highly recommended, particularly for music.
Oink is the whole hog. Yep more sub is good.
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post #42 of 70 Old 11-12-2015, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
The HDAM pre-amps on the 2014 AV7702 / 2015 AV7702MKII and 2015 AV8802A were upgraded from the HDAM pre-amps used on the 2013 AV8801. There have reportedly been quite a few AV8801 owners that moved to the AV7702 and reported improved audio quality as a result.
My concern is the MKII's audio quality wouldn't be much better than my Denon.
What is your opinion?



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Oink is the whole hog. Yep more sub is good.
If I listen to music in my HT, it's usually like this:

Spoiler!




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post #43 of 70 Old 11-13-2015, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post
My concern is the MKII's audio quality wouldn't be much better than my Denon.
What is your opinion?
Perhaps not, but your priority is upgrading to 4k/HDCP 2.2/HDMI 2.0a(HDR). At your budget level, maintaining the same audio quality should be acceptable.
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post #44 of 70 Old 11-13-2015, 06:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Perhaps not, but your priority is upgrading to 4k/HDCP 2.2/HDMI 2.0a(HDR). At your budget level, maintaining the same audio quality should be acceptable.
Thank you.


How much more in excess of my budget would it take to come up with something better in audio quality than the Denon?
Can you recommend some makes/models?



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post #45 of 70 Old 11-14-2015, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by oink View Post
How much more in excess of my budget would it take to come up with something better in audio quality than the Denon?
Can you recommend some makes/models?
What would $4k buy me?



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post #46 of 70 Old 11-14-2015, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post
My concern is the MKII's audio quality wouldn't be much better than my Denon.
What is your opinion?




If I listen to music in my HT, it's usually like this:

Spoiler!

Whats the Pig Jammin too... Funny ...
I can tell you there is no comparison between the Denon 4250 and the Marantz line you are considering ... I spent the better part of two years trying, and spending my way, trying to find out what the heck was so anemic about my music .. it was that Denon .. I don't think its in the Amp section .. I put a Outlaw 7500 ( 200wpc) behind it and helped the floor noise , but music still sucked .. I even sent the first one back thinking something was wrong with it and Denon sent me another new one ... The 8801 made my system "wake up" ! No comparison .. ditch the Denon .. Just My Opinion
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post #47 of 70 Old 11-14-2015, 03:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ss3740 View Post
Whats the Pig Jammin too... Funny ...
I can tell you there is no comparison between the Denon 4250 and the Marantz line you are considering ... I spent the better part of two years trying, and spending my way, trying to find out what the heck was so anemic about my music .. it was that Denon .. I don't think its in the Amp section .. I put a Outlaw 7500 ( 200wpc) behind it and helped the floor noise , but music still sucked .. I even sent the first one back thinking something was wrong with it and Denon sent me another new one ... The 8801 made my system "wake up" ! No comparison .. ditch the Denon .. Just My Opinion
I can't say this is the first time I've heard this, and likely several times from you alone, about the sq difference between a Denon and Marantz for "music" (although more often made in general terms without regard to model as opposed to your specific experience). I haven't had a Marantz since the late 70s thru early 80s and I didn't it particularly remarkable then. Did you have them side by side for a matched comparison? Can you describe that sq difference some more? Was it mode/use specific? It intrigues me but don't really have a way to do that comparison now....unless maybe Oink goes this Marantz way and I drive north a bit for a sample.

As far as spending $4k does that get you a full featured avr (4k/all the drm latest/greatest/immersive audio/upgradeability) from any of the boutique avrs? I think I saw a thread about some Arcams that may fit the bill....
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post #48 of 70 Old 11-14-2015, 04:31 PM
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In the last week I compared Denon 5200, Marantz 7010 and Arcam 350 and 480.

Compared to Arcam the others sounded as if the speakers were covered in quilts. There seemed to be more instruments in the recordings on the Arcams.
Movies was about the same with all.

I thought my X5200 was as good as I have heard with an AVR and 2 channel until this demo. IMO it out performs the 4520 that I owned with music and movies.
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post #49 of 70 Old 11-15-2015, 01:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Whats the Pig Jammin too... Funny ...
I can tell you there is no comparison between the Denon 4250 and the Marantz line you are considering ... I spent the better part of two years trying, and spending my way, trying to find out what the heck was so anemic about my music .. it was that Denon .. I don't think its in the Amp section .. I put a Outlaw 7500 ( 200wpc) behind it and helped the floor noise , but music still sucked .. I even sent the first one back thinking something was wrong with it and Denon sent me another new one ... The 8801 made my system "wake up" ! No comparison .. ditch the Denon .. Just My Opinion
I was under the impression that since they are owned by the same company, the 2 brands are clones of each other.



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As far as spending $4k does that get you a full featured avr (4k/all the drm latest/greatest/immersive audio/upgradeability) from any of the boutique avrs? I think I saw a thread about some Arcams that may fit the bill....
Info on the Arcam site is sketchy...



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post #50 of 70 Old 11-15-2015, 02:54 AM
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I was under the impression that since they are owned by the same company, the 2 brands are clones of each other.

Although likely 80% the same, Marantz uses their own unique HDAM pre-amps which most find produce much more detail with 2CH music listening vs. its comparable sister Denon model.

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post #51 of 70 Old 11-15-2015, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Although likely 80% the same, Marantz uses their own unique HDAM pre-amps which most find produce much more detail with 2CH music listening vs. its comparable sister Denon model.

Although I'm not in the market for a 2 ch. setup (I use my Oppo 95 analogs for that) this is good to know.


I am looking for something in my HT for movies.
How does the Marantz compare to the Denon with a multi-ch. digital signal?



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post #52 of 70 Old 11-15-2015, 08:45 AM
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Wait...you want to use the Denon 4520 as a pre-amp, and you are worried about the internal amps? What am I missing here?

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post #53 of 70 Old 11-15-2015, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post
Although I'm not in the market for a 2 ch. setup (I use my Oppo 95 analogs for that) this is good to know.


I am looking for something in my HT for movies.
How does the Marantz compare to the Denon with a multi-ch. digital signal?
Comparable.
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post #54 of 70 Old 11-15-2015, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Comparable.
Can you give me a price?



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post #55 of 70 Old 11-15-2015, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Squirrel! View Post
Wait...you want to use the Denon 4520 as a pre-amp, and you are worried about the internal amps? What am I missing here?
Huh?
I don't understand...
FWIW, I am currently using the 4520 as a pre-amp.



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post #56 of 70 Old 11-15-2015, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
I can't say this is the first time I've heard this, and likely several times from you alone, about the sq difference between a Denon and Marantz for "music" (although more often made in general terms without regard to model as opposed to your specific experience). I haven't had a Marantz since the late 70s thru early 80s and I didn't it particularly remarkable then. Did you have them side by side for a matched comparison? Can you describe that sq difference some more? Was it mode/use specific? It intrigues me but don't really have a way to do that comparison now....unless maybe Oink goes this Marantz way and I drive north a bit for a sample.

As far as spending $4k does that get you a full featured avr (4k/all the drm latest/greatest/immersive audio/upgradeability) from any of the boutique avrs? I think I saw a thread about some Arcams that may fit the bill....

Hi Lovin ...
We have talked a few times through the last couple years ... I think we both have Ascend Towers ....Yes I do bring this up once in a while . The reason is it keeps coming up . I don't know how many times someone has been on here complaining that their Denon 4250 powerhouse made their system go backwards .. I have had may people private E-mail me as they did not want tossed around on a public forum with people trying to convince them it was something they were doing to make the Denon sound so bad ...I know how they feel, I tried everybody's "best shot' for a couple years before throwing in the towel . I wish I would have kept my old Marantz BEFORE I bought the Denon ... But ..... I sold it and was stuck ..
I did not need a side by side comparison ... the Denon was embarrassing .. And many folk have the same impression . It just had no dynamics ... Dead and hollow on cranked up music ... I'm talking 110db range ... But that is where I listen ...I admit its fine for HT ...

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post #57 of 70 Old 11-15-2015, 04:31 PM
 
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Hi Lovin ...
We have talked a few times through the last couple years ... I think we both have Ascend Towers ....Yes I do bring this up once in a while . The reason is it keeps coming up . I don't know how many times someone has been on here complaining that their Denon 4250 powerhouse made their system go backwards .. I have had may people private E-mail me as they did not want tossed around on a public forum with people trying to convince them it was something they were doing to make the Denon sound so bad ... I did not need a side by side comparison ... the Denon was embarrassing .. And many folk have the same impression . It just had no dynamics ... Dead and hollow on cranked up music ... I'm talking 110db range ... But that is where I listen ...I admit its fine for HT ...
Thanks but Sierra-1s/170SE/200SE with a good amount of subwoofage at this point. I guess I'd need an a/b to try myself as I've read this from a few times as I said, but the opposite description just as many times (that the 4520 sounds great) and personally I've got no complaints/issues but not trying to listen at 110 dB these days either. Curious, but were the speakers supported by a sub and this was in any sound mode or ? You changed to a Marantz 8801 prepro with the Outlaw amp vs the 4520 with the same amp and the magic sound happened?
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post #58 of 70 Old 11-15-2015, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Thanks but Sierra-1s/170SE/200SE with a good amount of subwoofage at this point. I guess I'd need an a/b to try myself as I've read this from a few times as I said, but the opposite description just as many times (that the 4520 sounds great) and personally I've got no complaints/issues but not trying to listen at 110 dB these days either. Curious, but were the speakers supported by a sub and this was in any sound mode or ? You changed to a Marantz 8801 prepro with the Outlaw amp vs the 4520 with the same amp and the magic sound happened?

I had 2 subs ... Got a few minutes Lovin ? Heres the "REST of the Story" . This was the ascend community trying to help me with the Denon


http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/sho...tem-That-ROCKS
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post #59 of 70 Old 11-15-2015, 04:56 PM
 
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I had 2 subs ... Got a few minutes Lovin ? Heres the "REST of the Story" . This was the ascend community trying to help me with the Denon


http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/sho...tem-That-ROCKS
I think we should take this private unless @oink is interested since he does have the 4520...but I am curious if he had any particular sq issues too.
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post #60 of 70 Old 11-15-2015, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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No problem discussing it here, guys.
I believe in freedom of speech.



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