Emotiva Updates XPA Amplifiers to Generation 3 - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
Mate, please don't fall for the PR nonsense and you won't be disappointed either way:



Flowery descriptors of the so-called sound of the amp from reviewers based on their "listening sessions" are completely useless too.

Remove the confounding effects of various sighted biases from the equation, and they'll be utterly indistinguishable from any other well engineered SS amp operating as intended, Emotiva or otherwise. They shouldn't sound like anything at all, and something like this (for example) doesn't:



There's a great deal to like about Emotiva's range of power amps - past, present and pending - but their sound isn't one of them. Their complete lack of it is.

Cheers!
Ya know, writing is like cooking. A bit of spice goes a long way toward keeping the person consuming the content happy. Just like a steak can be described as "properly cooked and seasoned" or "delicious and tender, perfectly salted and braised to rare perfection" so it is with audio and stuff like solid-state amps and DACS. Ultimately, you'll continue to see a bit of purple prose in reviews because it makes reading them more pleasant.

Basically, I agree with you, but I also find it tiresome to read polemics about the evils of sighted bias whenever topic of the "sound" of solid-state gear with impeccable specifications comes up.
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post #62 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Basically, I agree with you, but I also find it tiresome to read polemics about the evils of sighted bias whenever topic of the "sound" of solid-state gear with impeccable specifications comes up.
I don't think we have seen any polemics yet - just a couple of short posts

It may be tiresome to seasoned AV enthusiasts who understand what they are buying and what they are getting for their money, but if it can save less experienced members from wasting money by being led to believe that modern SS amplifiers (working within their design parameters and not being driven into clipping) 'sound' different to each other, then IMO it can't be repeated too often. If an amplifier has a 'sound' of its own, then it is a pretty poor amplifier, serving as both amp and (undefeatable) tone control in one unit. Good modern amps are transparent to the source, taking the input and sending it to the output unchanged other than in amplitude, so it follows that if one 'sounds different' to another, one of them isn't working properly.

Emotiva amplifiers exhibit excellent performance characteristics, reinforced by extensive published measurements (on their website) and long may it continue for them. But to imply that the reason they are more expensive is that they 'sound better' than the outgoing models is misleading at best. Note that I am not accusing Emotiva, or you, or anyone, of doing this - just offering it as a warning to anyone about to buy a new amp. Buy it by all means, but buy it for the right reasons.
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post #63 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 07:27 AM
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An alternative are the Crown XLS (gen1) line. Way more power per buck, light and the fan never goes on. Plenty of XLS 1000, 1500 and 2000 left. Check out Ebay or Musicians Friend.

I have the XPA-3 back when they were $350 shipped. THAT was a bargain. They're no longer the better affordable company they once were famous for. Great amps and decent prices. It's now gone.
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post #64 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 07:43 AM
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But they look much nicer! I personally like the idea of the Emersa line if they can get a mono block going. A competitor to Outlaws 2200s would be very welcome from Emotiva; I'd like to stack two of those on top of each other for my fronts. 150wpc in the 2-channel amp isn't quite enough! (unless they implement some sort of soft clipping)

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post #65 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by vitod View Post
I have the XPA-3 back when they were $350 shipped. THAT was a bargain. They're no longer the better affordable company they once were famous for. Great amps and decent prices. It's now gone.

Beats mine, I paid $529 for my XPA-3 back in November 2010. Still a good price though IMO. That amp has been in daily use now for 5 years and has never missed a beat.

Agreed about Crown XLS - I am a big fan and own one of them. Also never missed a beat. Fugly though, for those who care about these things.
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post #66 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 08:21 AM
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I have the XPA-3 back when they were $350 shipped. THAT was a bargain. They're no longer the better affordable company they once were famous for. Great amps and decent prices. It's now gone.
I've personally compared Rotel, Marantz, and Emotiva amps, head-to-head-to-head. To my ears, on my system, a $1199 Marantz MM7055, a $1295 Rotel RMB-1565 and a $799 Emotiva XPA-5 sound A LOT alike. They sound so much alike that with the help of a friend I couldn't tell the difference between any of the amps during a blind test, although I did guess the Marantz sound more times than the other two brands.

When I switch from the XPA line to the XPR line, I could tell a difference between those two amps and favored the XPR. I'm guessing the same could be said if I compared the XPR to the Rotel and Marantz (but it didn't do it). From what I've read and from what I've concluded the Gen 3 XPA is basically a XPR amp with a few part differences and a cosmetic change. Its my opinion if Emotiva is using XPR topology, module design and makes the product in the USA, the Gen 3 XPA-5 for $1600 is a great amp and a good value.

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post #67 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 08:49 AM
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I currently have a XPA-2 G2 and a XPA-5 G2 and i am VERY happy with them.. So the news about them making modular amps is a good one,as i have been wanting an emotiva 4 chan for my atmos setup to go with my current emotiva.. And if they weigh less than the xpa and sound the same,or better i am all for it.. the xpa are friggin heavy.

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post #68 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 08:54 AM
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Agreed about Crown XLS - I am a big fan and own one of them. Also never missed a beat. Fugly though, for those who care about these things.
Yep, they're not too pretty. But, I'd guess that most of them are used for HT and usually hidden away. I have a 1500 powering my living room Paradigms in plain sight. Not bad looking and wife doesn't mind. Bless her.

So yeah, though you paid about $200 more, it still was a good deal. They're trying to be in the big leagues and their original idea of offering affordable power is dead. Nothing wrong with making more money. It's a business and I get that. The only thing I see them justifying the huge price increase is IF they have the XPR topology like Deewan mentioned and made in the USA (higher labor cost). Now, if they added a lifetime transferable warranty, that would be a game changer.

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post #69 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 09:06 AM
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the xpa are friggin heavy.
Two Crown XLS 1000 and you're set. Super light weight. 11lbs. $179 each shipped at Musicians Friend.

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post #70 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 09:47 AM
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It's my opinion that Emotiva is revamping the family of products and we just don't understand what other products are coming and the new naming structures. The XPR lineup is gone, I'm guessing the Gen 3 XPA-2/3/4/5/7 line is essentially taking the XPR place for performance and topology at a slightly reduced price and module design.

Let's not forget Emotiva currently has the XPA-1/2/3/5/7 and XPA-100/200 models, both in the XPA family. Could be the same situation with Gen 3 XPA amps. Gen 3 XPA-1/2/3/4/5/6 could be module design and use a lot of the XPR technology and performance. Emotiva could also have a Gen 3 XPA-100/200/300/500/700 in the works that is modeled after XPA-1/2/3/5/7 amps, but unlike the known Gen 3 XPA lineup, they aren't modular and use the Gen 2 technology. those amps could stay right in line with the current price points. Something like that would make all the complaints about Emotiva no longer being based on performance and value look silly.

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post #71 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 09:58 AM
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Ya know, writing is like cooking. A bit of spice goes a long way toward keeping the person consuming the content happy. Just like a steak can be described as "properly cooked and seasoned" or "delicious and tender, perfectly salted and braised to rare perfection" so it is with audio and stuff like solid-state amps and DACS. Ultimately, you'll continue to see a bit of purple prose in reviews because it makes reading them more pleasant.

Basically, I agree with you, but I also find it tiresome to read polemics about the evils of sighted bias whenever topic of the "sound" of solid-state gear with impeccable specifications comes up.
I have also seen reports that the noise floor of some pretty good amps can be heard on very, very, sensitive speakers, like Blazer's (sp.?) horn set-up, so at least to an extent an amp's noise floor can still be relevant to how it sounds in a system, even if the amp is otherwise well designed and has a flat FR.
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post #72 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I have also seen reports that the noise floor of some pretty good amps can be heard on very, very, sensitive speakers, like Blazer's (sp.?) horn set-up, so at least to an extent an amp's noise floor can still be relevant to how it sounds in a system, even if the amp is otherwise well designed and has a flat FR.
I have experienced that.

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post #73 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 12:19 PM
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The original XPA series had higher gain than is usual for audio amplifiers and as a result were reputedly more problematic with high-sensitivity speakers. High-power amps in general, e.g. some pro amps, have had similar issues.

Fortunately I have low sensitivity speakers so do not suffer from that malady.

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post #74 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 12:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
Mate, please don't fall for the PR nonsense and you won't be disappointed either way:



Flowery descriptors of the so-called sound of the amp from reviewers based on their "listening sessions" are completely useless too.

Remove the confounding effects of various sighted biases from the equation, and they'll be utterly indistinguishable from any other well engineered SS amp operating as intended, Emotiva or otherwise. They shouldn't sound like anything at all, and something like this (for example) doesn't:



There's a great deal to like about Emotiva's range of power amps - past, present and pending - but their sound isn't one of them. Their complete lack of it is.

Cheers!
Giegar, I don't fall for PR prose, especially coming from Emotiva. That said, I do fall for sound quality differences that I can easily hear. My old XPA-3 amp would produce sibilance that a Halo A21 did not. It was not subtle, and it was repeatable with certain tracks at certain volumes. You are free to believe whatever your experience, etc., has led you to. I am not going to ask you not to fall for the science crowd theories.

But to have another debate on the science vs impressions of sound is pointless. Let's please not do it again, I think the debate on this forum has been repeated over a million times by now. Let's just agree to disagree, shall we? And again, I'll wait for owners, not Emotiva or internet friends like Audioholics , to share their thoughts and impressions on these amps.
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post #75 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by vitod View Post
Two Crown XLS 1000 and you're set. Super light weight. 11lbs. $179 each shipped at Musicians Friend.

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No thank you, i really like emotiva,and i want to keep within the same brand. Also,i am not an american so price is a LOT different here.
Also,i do not like those class d amps,i had 3 different kinds on test,and the fans were godawful loud,and since i have my amps in my theater, it is a no go
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post #76 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 12:51 PM
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Also,i am not an american so price is a LOT different here.
Actually that's a good point. I am in England and the carriage for my Emo amps was a significant percentage of the total outlay. Still better value than anything I could find here though (this was before I discovered Pro amps like the XLS series, which is what I would likely choose nowadays). The new Emo amps, being much lighter, would cost much less in carriage than their old leviathans - makes them more attractive to overseas customers perhaps.
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post #77 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 01:17 PM
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Actually that's a good point. I am in England and the carriage for my Emo amps was a significant percentage of the total outlay. Still better value than anything I could find here though (this was before I discovered Pro amps like the XLS series, which is what I would likely choose nowadays). The new Emo amps, being much lighter, would cost much less in carriage than their old leviathans - makes them more attractive to overseas customers perhaps.
Yep, i bought Emotiva,because the similar amps on the european market is extremely overpriced.. The Marantz and Onkyo power amps were double at least of what Emotiva was INCLUDING shipping.. This was when the dollar was a lot cheaper though, the difference is significantly less now.
But i still feel the price vs quality is excellent with Emotiva,and i am very happy with them.
And like i mentioned, pro amps are for people with racks and gear closets or whatever,not for people who have their gear in the theater,as the fans are ridiculously high,at least they were on the ones i had home to test, also 2 of the 3 gave me ground hum, so no thanks to pro gear

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post #78 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 01:21 PM
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Yep, i bought Emotiva,because the similar amps on the european market is extremely overpriced.. The Marantz and Onkyo power amps were double at least of what Emotiva was INCLUDING shipping.. This was when the dollar was a lot cheaper though, the difference is significantly less now.
But i still feel the price vs quality is excellent with Emotiva,and i am very happy with them.
Agreed. The American guys don't know how lucky they are to have such a fantastic choice of gear at prices way below what we have to pay in Europe. They even get free shipping on the Emotiva gear. There are still no really great value amps in the UK, which is why I would look at pro gear if I was starting over. But my gear is all in a closet outside the HT so looks and fan noise don't worry me at all. HST the new Crown amps in black trim look a bit better.
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post #79 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 01:24 PM
 
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Hey, any idea how much Parasound gear goes for across the pond, like the A21 or P5?
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post #80 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 02:00 PM
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Hey, any idea how much Parasound gear goes for across the pond, like the A21 or P5?
Exactly which side of the pond do you mean?

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post #81 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 03:35 PM
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I'm glad they're going back to the modular design. I had one of the mps-2 amps. Was basically 7 monoblocks in one chassis. If there's an issue you pull the one amp blade and send it in. No more lugging 100+pounds around..

Me too. Although I have an old Sherbourn 5/5210a that Emotiva will no longer expand from my current 5 to a proposed 7 channels due to its age (understandable), the idea is the same. So for those wanting odd channels, such as 4, 9, 10, etc., looks like any combination is possible now.

The price difference going to an XPR-like amp with these Gen 3s seems well worth it to me. To compare the current Gen 2 XPAs to these new ones isn't quite fair. The current models are not only outgoing, they are running a 20% off special that is really quite good.
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post #82 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 04:25 PM
 
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Me too. Although I have an old Sherbourn 5/5210a that Emotiva will no longer expand from my current 5 to a proposed 7 channels due to its age (understandable), the idea is the same. So for those wanting odd channels, such as 4, 9, 10, etc., looks like any combination is possible now.

The price difference going to an XPR-like amp with these Gen 3s seems well worth it to me. To compare the current Gen 2 XPAs to these new ones isn't quite fair. The current models are not only outgoing, they are running a 20% off special that is really quite good.
One of the guys over on the lounge did a dollar per watt spreadsheet of current xpa amps compared to what's proposed for the new gen 3 amps and it was within pennies between the two generations of amps.. most people don't take the big picture in to account. Yes gen 3 is more expensive, but it also has improved efficiency and higher wattage per channel.
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post #83 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 04:27 PM
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I am hoping for a 8 channel version at some point. 11 channels in two boxes would be nice (3 channel for LCR and 8 channel for surrounds/Atmos).

3 +4 + 4 is to pricey due to extra enclosures which are often a fairly significant percentage of the overall cost.

Running Crown/QSC now but they are lacking in the looks department.
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post #84 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 05:20 PM
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One of the guys over on the lounge did a dollar per watt spreadsheet of current xpa amps compared to what's proposed for the new gen 3 amps and it was within pennies between the two generations of amps.. most people don't take the big picture in to account. Yes gen 3 is more expensive, but it also has improved efficiency and higher wattage per channel.
But It it worth double the price than what the Gen 2 is going for now? I don't think so. Buy cheap while you can and be happy.
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post #85 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 06:16 PM
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But It it worth double the price than what the Gen 2 is going for now? I don't think so. Buy cheap while you can and be happy.
And I just put my money where my mouth is and ordered one.
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post #86 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 07:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Fattykidd View Post
One of the guys over on the lounge did a dollar per watt spreadsheet of current xpa amps compared to what's proposed for the new gen 3 amps and it was within pennies between the two generations of amps.. most people don't take the big picture in to account. Yes gen 3 is more expensive, but it also has improved efficiency and higher wattage per channel.
Well they are massaging the data then. Comparing retail, not sale prices, the XPA-5 is priced at $999. The 3rd gen XPA-5 is 1600. the audio difference between 200 and 275 watts per channel WILL NOT BE AUDIBLE. Same goes for the whole line up. It is what it is. Emotiva has been leaving money on the table on every amp they sold during the last 5 years.
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post #87 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 08:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
Well they are massaging the data then. Comparing retail, not sale prices, the XPA-5 is priced at $999. The 3rd gen XPA-5 is 1600. the audio difference between 200 and 275 watts per channel WILL NOT BE AUDIBLE. Same goes for the whole line up. It is what it is. Emotiva has been leaving money on the table on every amp they sold during the last 5 years.
The difference between 125 and 200 would be just as inaudible. Yet more people own xpa series amps than upa series amps.. having owned one of every series they've owned in the last five years, the difference between amp lines is 100 % audible. So if the xpa gen 3 amps sound like the xpr amps They are supposed to he modeled after the price increase should reflect that.
Some will say it's a cash grab some will say it's justified. I could care less either way. I'm pretty well set for amps. (For this week anyway..LOL)
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post #88 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 09:32 PM
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For me, it's actually a very sad thing to know that the XPR line is going to be discontinued.

I just love those blue LED vertical stripes that the company does on each side of their XPR-2 amps. IMO, it's an aesthetic mistake to discontinue that look. I would buy one of those XPR-2 amps tomorrow if I had use for it, but I'm pretty well covered with amps at this point with all my NAD gear. Even have a couple of hot spares ready to go if lightning could get through my wall of electrical surge suppression.


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post #89 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 09:35 PM
 
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The difference between 125 and 200 would be just as inaudible. Yet more people own xpa series amps than upa series amps.. having owned one of every series they've owned in the last five years, the difference between amp lines is 100 % audible. So if the xpa gen 3 amps sound like the xpr amps They are supposed to he modeled after the price increase should reflect that.
Some will say it's a cash grab some will say it's justified. I could care less either way. I'm pretty well set for amps. (For this week anyway..LOL)

Any difference in the UPA and XPA amp lines(The UPA line has always had way too many compromises to be a serious amp line) a) has nothing to do with the wattage difference, and B) has nothing to do with what a 3rd gen XPA line might sound like. Either way, it doesn't refute the data massaging accusation. It's a stiff price increase, and there is no getting around that. That said, it's nice to see them moving to USA manufacturing and it's nice to see an attempt at improving the XPA SQ.
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post #90 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 09:45 PM
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A good amount of XPA's just popped up in the classifieds lol. someone grab em!

JTR Speakers, RSL Atmos, Kaleidescape, Lumagen Radiance Pro, Marantz Processor, Emotiva Amps, JVC RS540
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