Emotiva Updates XPA Amplifiers to Generation 3 - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 961 Old 12-10-2015, 10:29 PM
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Adding Class H topology would also explain some price increase over the old model. I can't wait for some product reviews.
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post #92 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
Hey, any idea how much Parasound gear goes for across the pond, like the A21 or P5?
In the UK the A21 is £2,500 ($3,800USD) and the P5 is about £1,100 ($1,670USD).
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post #93 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Fattykidd View Post
One of the guys over on the lounge did a dollar per watt spreadsheet of current xpa amps compared to what's proposed for the new gen 3 amps and it was within pennies between the two generations of amps.. most people don't take the big picture in to account. Yes gen 3 is more expensive, but it also has improved efficiency and higher wattage per channel.

The Gen 2 XPA-7 (to pick the one most useful for HT use) currently costs $1,599 regular price and is currently available for $1,279. The Gen 3 XPA-7 is listed at $2,000, a price hike of $400 over the listed price of the Gen 2 unit and offers 250 watts into 8 ohms. Gen 3 = 250 watts into 8 ohms, Gen 2 = 200 watts into 8 ohms.


Given you need to double wattage to get a 3dB increase in SPL, an extra 50 watts is pretty much meaningless, accounting for less than half a dB difference in SPL output. So the guy in the Lounge seemed to be wasting his time with that comparison.
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post #94 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by nx211 View Post
For me, it's actually a very sad thing to know that the XPR line is going to be discontinued.

I just love those blue LED vertical stripes that the company does on each side of their XPR-2 amps. IMO, it's an aesthetic mistake to discontinue that look. I would buy one of those XPR-2 amps tomorrow if I had use for it, but I'm pretty well covered with amps at this point with all my NAD gear. Even have a couple of hot spares ready to go if lightning could get through my wall of electrical surge suppression.


nx211

If indeed the XPR lines are going away, I concur. In fact, I would pay extra for an Emotiva option to add a digital display that could show virtual VU meters, etc.
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post #95 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by murphy2112 View Post
In fact, I would pay extra for an Emotiva option to add a digital display that could show virtual VU meters, etc.
How about analog VU meters?

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post #96 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 05:52 AM
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Ever heard of measurements like IMD? You should seriously research this, yes it is real and measurable. That's why any decent review will have few IMD plots.

At least you didn't tell us a $400 AVR will sound the same, etc... I hate the BS on here.

It turns out an amp's topology can impact sound... Now if you can hear the difference, I'd think it depends on how bad the IMD is, how quiet your room is, if your speakers are very sensitive, etc...

Read the Secrets review for the XPR-1 and compare it to their XPA review. Pretty clear there's measurable differences there.

I know the old XPA Gen 1 series had a lot of hiss too. My XPR's have almost none. That alone is audible at the mlp and why a lot of folks with horn speakers sold their XPA amps.

I'm an EE by the way.

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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
Mate, please don't fall for the PR nonsense and you won't be disappointed either way:



Flowery descriptors of the so-called sound of the amp from reviewers based on their "listening sessions" are completely useless too.

Remove the confounding effects of various sighted biases from the equation, and they'll be utterly indistinguishable from any other well engineered SS amp operating as intended, Emotiva or otherwise. They shouldn't sound like anything at all, and something like this (for example) doesn't:



There's a great deal to like about Emotiva's range of power amps - past, present and pending - but their sound isn't one of them. Their complete lack of it is.

Cheers!
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post #97 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 06:28 AM
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Wow, those are very steep price hikes. Too high imho.

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post #98 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 06:43 AM
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The last few days I've wondered if the AVS home page is Emo's? Add in Google's ad algorithm (it knows I visit emo.com) and its is overwhelming. Great that Emo has come out with some new amps, price competitiveness or sound improvements I won't debate but I agree completely that a well made amp has no sound, its just disappointing to see them promoted so much when there are a lot of other products in a/v land that deserve a little love and attention. How about a single story with links to the appropriate product discussions?

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post #99 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
The last few days I've wondered if the AVS home page is Emo's? Add in Google's ad algorithm (it knows I visit emo.com) and its is overwhelming. Great that Emo has come out with some new amps, price competitiveness or sound improvements I won't debate but I agree completely that a well made amp has no sound, its just disappointing to see them promoted so much when there are a lot of other products in a/v land that deserve a little love and attention. How about a single story with links to the appropriate product discussions?
IMO, each of those announcements was newsworthy. Had some other AV product manufacturer sent me press releases—on that same day—about a new line of speakers/processors/amps, then that news would have made the homepage as well.

It's Emotiva's prerogative to buy ad space when and where it wishes to do so, which the company clearly did in support of its CES-related new product announcements.

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post #100 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
Great that Emo has come out with some new amps, price competitiveness or sound improvements I won't debate but I agree completely that a well made amp has no sound, its just disappointing to see them promoted so much when there are a lot of other products in a/v land that deserve a little love and attention.
I'd love to see a list of Class D amps for under ~$1k with RCA in, trigger in, output >150 RMS, and look good. Class A/B would interest me, except for the size and weight. (The Emotiva XPA-series are just too big for what I want)

Peachtree 220 and Emotiva XPA-200 is gone; Nuprime, Wyred, Red Dragon, IQ m300, and D-Sonic amps are too expensive; and the Crown amps are ugly.

Emo's Emersa line checks almost all the boxes; hopefully Emotiva comes out with a good replacement for the XPA-200 as I would consider that as well.

If all else fails, I may look into a Hypex NC400 build.

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post #101 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post
Ever heard of measurements like IMD? You should seriously research this, yes it is real and measurable. That's why any decent review will have few IMD plots.

At least you didn't tell us a $400 AVR will sound the same, etc... I hate the BS on here.

It turns out an amp's topology can impact sound... Now if you can hear the difference, I'd think it depends on how bad the IMD is, how quiet your room is, if your speakers are very sensitive, etc...

Read the Secrets review for the XPR-1 and compare it to their XPA review. Pretty clear there's measurable differences there.

I know the old XPA Gen 1 series had a lot of hiss too. My XPR's have almost none. That alone is audible at the mlp and why a lot of folks with horn speakers sold their XPA amps.

I'm an EE by the way.
Amp measurements are a great starting point, but even with their limitations they measure differently.

Most amp measurements are steady state RMS which is required for test equipment. In addition to IM, there can be for non-linearity driving speaker loads and momentary clipping on peaks. Current limiting can occur as well and this is not traditionally considered distortion but it is an inaccuracy that is system dependent.

Many AVR's current limit and will simply be unable to provide for an short musical peak. Less power = less sound. All AVR's I have had with 4 ohm switches sound flat when this feature is engaged. Even with bookshelf speakers (Revel M20) and 80 DB listening levels. The 4 ohm setting turns on current limiting. Measurements have show the power measurements can drop in to the 30 watt range, roughly 5DB drop. Simple math shows that the AVR should not be clipping. Yet, the sound is noticeably degraded.

These types of experiments are easily performed at home and the results are obvious.

- Rich
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post #102 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 08:26 AM
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Yeah, there's a lot of stuff I left out of my post, but yes you are right about the power supply limitations of using an AVR.

I haven't tried one of the newer ones with a switching power supply though. I'd assume they have more power available, but they could never compare to a big mono block like my XPR-1's.

No doubt even on my nice ATI AT2007 amp I was clipping before on a few of my most dynamic tracks. I used the Foobar2000 DR plugin to verify this. Some of my Chesky test tracks have 45dB+ of dynamic range.

So what happens when I turn my volume up just 5-10dB above my room's noise floor? Apparently some clipping as these tracks sound clearer now with the XPR-1's.

To reach these 105dB-115dB (55dB noise floor + 5dB + 45dB) peaks on dynamic tracks you need an amp with high enough voltage rails. What about a gun shot during a movie? I wonder what that dynamic range is...

My guess is a lot of folks experience clipping on certain tracks/movies and never know it. Granted most tracks aren't very dynamic.

Here's an online amp calculator like this one for folks. I'd assume 60dB of range for the recording if you never want to clip + your room's noise floor.
http://geoffthegreygeek.com/calculator-amp-speaker-spl/

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Amp measurements are a great starting point, but even with their limitations they measure differently.

Most amp measurements are steady state RMS which is required for test equipment. In addition to IM, there can be for non-linearity driving speaker loads and momentary clipping on peaks. Current limiting can occur as well and this is not traditionally considered distortion but it is an inaccuracy that is system dependent.

Many AVR's current limit and will simply be unable to provide for an short musical peak. Less power = less sound. All AVR's I have had with 4 ohm switches sound flat when this feature is engaged. Even with bookshelf speakers (Revel M20) and 80 DB listening levels. The 4 ohm setting turns on current limiting. Measurements have show the power measurements can drop in to the 30 watt range, roughly 5DB drop. Simple math shows that the AVR should not be clipping. Yet, the sound is noticeably degraded.

These types of experiments are easily performed at home and the results are obvious.

- Rich
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post #103 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 08:32 AM
 
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In the UK the A21 is £2,500 ($3,800USD) and the P5 is about £1,100 ($1,670USD).
Thanks, I had no idea that the prices were so inflated!
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post #104 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Tsunamijhoe View Post
No thank you, i really like emotiva,and i want to keep within the same brand. Also,i am not an american so price is a LOT different here.
Also,i do not like those class d amps,i had 3 different kinds on test,and the fans were godawful loud,and since i have my amps in my theater, it is a no go
Ok, suit yourself. But the XLS fans never go on. They have to be pushed hard and a period of time for something to happen.
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post #105 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 09:10 AM
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Ok, suit yourself. But the XLS fans never go on. They have to be pushed hard and a period of time for something to happen.
I bet you they would go on in my room,i use my equipment on average 8-12hrs a day with volumes ranging from -12db to referrence lvl,so the equipment gets a hammering,and it gets hot. I am disabled and use a lot of time watching movies hence why i am so sensitive to fan noise,ground hum and other annoying things you hear in the low passages. I kid you not,on the t.Amps the fan was so loud i could hear it even during action scenes.

I am not familiar with Crown and how easy/hard it would be to replace the fans,but then you run the risk of overheating,and lose warranty..Those types of amps are just not suited for in-room equipment
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post #106 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by amatuerholic View Post
How about analog VU meters?

Love the idea, but today's CPUs can simulate analog quite well.
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post #107 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 09:19 AM
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i use my equipment on average 8-12hrs a day with volumes ranging from -12db to referrence lvl,so the equipment gets a hammering,and it gets hot.
Those seem like perfect conditions for pro gear. How efficient are your speakers?

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post #108 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 09:20 AM
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I have always eyed the Emotiva line for its elegance, but went with six Crown XLS 1500 and 1000 amps for driving 12 speakers. These amps are fantastic; they are dead silent, light as a feather, and put out more power than you'll ever really need (with good quality speakers attached). The newer Crown models are a bit pricey, but still worth a look.

If Emotiva had speakon outputs, that might make me look again.
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post #109 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 09:21 AM
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Love the idea, but today's CPUs can simulate analog quite well.
Oh, I hear you on that. It's just different looking through the glass and seeing the meters there when the unit's off: shadows and all that stuff. There's still something different to the physical nature of analog gauges.
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post #110 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 09:23 AM
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Oh, I hear you on that. It's just different looking through the glass and seeing the meters there when the unit's off: shadows and all that stuff. There's still something different to the physical nature of analog gauges.

Totally agree, which is why I would absolutely consider getting a much older amp for this exact reason
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post #111 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 09:39 AM
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post #112 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Tsunamijhoe View Post
I bet you they would go on in my room,i use my equipment on average 8-12hrs a day with volumes ranging from -12db to referrence lvl,so the equipment gets a hammering,and it gets hot. I am disabled and use a lot of time watching movies hence why i am so sensitive to fan noise,ground hum and other annoying things you hear in the low passages. I kid you not,on the t.Amps the fan was so loud i could hear it even during action scenes.

I am not familiar with Crown and how easy/hard it would be to replace the fans,but then you run the risk of overheating,and lose warranty..Those types of amps are just not suited for in-room equipment
I get what you're saying. I have all my amps in room and all with fan mods. Can't hear them. I've done mods on iNukes and Behringer EP2500. No problems. I haven't done the XLS because they just don't go on. Keep in mind, you're not listening reference levels all the duration of the movies. Just in spurts. If someone can fan mod your amps, you'll love them.

Having said that, Emotiva does make a fine product and I don't see ever getting rid of my XPA-3. They no longer offer affordable, quality power. Too bad.

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20% sales tax here.
Good grief! The taxes you guys pay is crazy, why so high? Does the British government have a big debt to service?
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post #114 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by crimsonblue View Post
I have always eyed the Emotiva line for its elegance, but went with six Crown XLS 1500 and 1000 amps for driving 12 speakers. These amps are fantastic; they are dead silent, light as a feather, and put out more power than you'll ever really need (with good quality speakers attached). The newer Crown models are a bit pricey, but still worth a look.

If Emotiva had speakon outputs, that might make me look again.
Yep and right now the Gen1's are still on sale at great prices. I was lucky to snatch up a pair of 2500 from MF for $299 each shipped. (sold out now) Ridiculous amount of power that Emo and other consumer amps can't ever come close to this price point. Light, powerful, suburb build quality, silent and CHEAP. Can't beat that.

The XPA do have speakon outputs.
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post #115 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 10:00 AM
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Good grief! The taxes you guys pay is crazy, why so high? Does the British government have a big debt to service?
It's mostly welfare. Welfare is the biggest government spend. Second is the socialised health service we have to endure. Britain spends more on welfare than all of the income tax revenue collected, so we have to fund everything else out of the non-income taxation. Gas for example here is just over £1 a litre - 75% of that price is tax. We pay property taxes, local taxes, insurance taxes, sales taxes, capital taxes and when you finally keel over and die from the strain of it all, they take up to 40% of what you have managed to leave behind as 'inheritance tax'.
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It's mostly welfare. Welfare is the biggest government spend. Second is the socialised health service we have to endure. Britain spends more on welfare than all of the income tax revenue collected, so we have to fund everything else out of the non-income taxation. Gas for example here is just over £1 a litre - 75% of that price is tax. We pay property taxes, local taxes, insurance taxes, sales taxes, capital taxes and when you finally keel over and die from the strain of it all, they take up to 40% of what you have managed to leave behind as 'inheritance tax'.
Wow, that's not a pretty picture. Sorry for provoking the thread drift folks, back to regularly scheduled programming...
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post #117 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 10:37 AM
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It's mostly welfare. Welfare is the biggest government spend. Second is the socialised health service we have to endure. Britain spends more on welfare than all of the income tax revenue collected, so we have to fund everything else out of the non-income taxation. Gas for example here is just over £1 a litre - 75% of that price is tax. We pay property taxes, local taxes, insurance taxes, sales taxes, capital taxes and when you finally keel over and die from the strain of it all, they take up to 40% of what you have managed to leave behind as 'inheritance tax'.
Outrageous!

How does anyone make a decent living there? I know it's easier said than done, but I'd be out of there YESTERDAY.
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post #118 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Gas for example here is just over £1 a litre - 75% of that price is tax.
So that's about $6 a gallon U.S.?

The 4 V-8's sitting in my driveway collectively shuddered when I read this.
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post #119 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 11:59 AM
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Same in NL, more like 7 dollar a gallon

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post #120 of 961 Old 12-11-2015, 12:16 PM
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Good grief! The taxes you guys pay is crazy, why so high? Does the British government have a big debt to service?
Hehe, that is nothing, we have a 25% sales tax on everything. Denmark have the highest taxes in the world,which is why everything cost double or triple what americans pay. And we happen to have a registration tax on new cars on 180% beat that.. Only the very rich can afford even moderatly sized cars with good safety features,everyone else are more or less forced to buy sardine cans made in korea.

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Those seem like perfect conditions for pro gear. How efficient are your speakers?
I cant recall, my speakers are in my signature.

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