Emotiva Updates XPA Amplifiers to Generation 3 - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
But history and experience is on your side. And we come back to the old question that if one amp sounds different to another then one of them is distorting the input signal as it passes it to the output. Modern SS amps of even modest quality have measurements which show they just don't do that. Hence they have no 'sound' of their own. Nor would we want our amps to act as undefeatable tone controls either of course. But people will believe what they believe and you can show them the measurements till doomsday and they won't believe you, or them.
Measurements driving a static load.
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post #152 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
But history and experience is on your side. And we come back to the old question that if one amp sounds different to another then one of them is distorting the input signal as it passes it to the output. Modern SS amps of even modest quality have measurements which show they just don't do that. Hence they have no 'sound' of their own. Nor would we want our amps to act as undefeatable tone controls either of course. But people will believe what they believe and you can show them the measurements till doomsday and they won't believe you, or them.
Well if your speakers are good enough you will hear a difference.
For sure u would hear the A/B difference if you would have a listen here.


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post #153 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 09:11 AM
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Well if your speakers are good enough you will hear a difference.
For sure u would hear the A/B difference if you would have a listen here.


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As I was saying.....
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post #154 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 09:20 AM
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That's kind of my point, Mick. Look for the quality, not where it's made. If the best quality/performance/price ratio is from a unit made in <wherever> then that is the one to buy. It might be made in the US or in England or in Asia. Where it's made just isn't a factor in my decision-making process now that manufacturing is globalised. The Chinese make some brilliant gear - often it is designed in the US (eg Apple) and made in China, which is perhaps the best of both worlds since the consumer gets a well-made product but at a better price.
Completely agree with this. And when i was a teenager, evrerything was made in japan, and was considered bad quality, today we wish electronics were made in japan and not in china..
However, th chinese makes excellent products,and if quality control is good,they are todays japan.. Granted,they also make really cheap crap,but they are getting very good at what they do.
Just take Onkyo, i have had a lot of that brands items from early 80s up until 2 years ago, when i finally had enough when their avr-s kept frying the hdmi board, this company had an awesome "bang for your buck" reputation in late 80s all through the 90s,some of my bet gear has been made in japan onkyo,but because they chose to move production to china, and save on quality control and components, their reputation is now a brand to be avoided,and i am certain this will have an effect on onkyo in the coming years.
Now, everything EU made is bloated price wise,as this is also made in china or taiwan,but they still charge prices like it was made in EU, and this is just not a viable business model these days.
The stuff i have bought in USA i have been very pleasently surprised and happy with, be it clothes or electronics even though most of it was still made in china,the components or materials used are just that much better than EU,which nowadays is really cheap crap for 3 times the price.
I would not hesistate a moment to buy another Emotiva or ATI, and i already own SVS which is also very good quality for the price compared to the crap they peddle in EU unless you take out a second mortgage on your house.

I really dont care where stuff is made,as long as it lives up to the advertising and promises from the company,and is working as intended..

Like i mentioned earlier, my english designed speakers REALLY opened up when they got the power from the emotivas, and i am so happy with the sound my system now produces.

Emotiva and SVS are the best purchases i have done in a long time,and i would not hesitate to import again as i saved 50-60% compared to EU prices would i have bought similar items here, and this is including customs and shipping.

also, i have been very happy with the US customer service, be it from SVS or Emotiva, as they have been promt,kind and professional during the course of my purchases..
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post #155 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 10:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
So Emotiva, having built their entire success to date, and their business model entirely, on manufacturing in China and passing the savings of so doing onto their customers in the form of very highly specified amplifiers at exceptionally good prices, suddenly decide they are, at heart, down-home Tennessee boys with a duty to 'make it in America'.

Let's think about it. I use an iPhone, and a Mac, made in China. I have loudspeakers from England, Canada and Denmark. I drive a Jaguar made in England, but from a company owned in India. My car before was a Mercedes made in Germany. I've owned cars made by Honda in Japan too. I drink coffee from Brazil, tea from Ceylon, beer from Holland, stout from Ireland, whisky from Scotland, red wine from Australia and white wine from New Zealand. Oh, and water from France. I eat oranges from Spain, peaches from France, bananas from the Caribbean and tomatoes from Italy. My wristwatch is made in Switzerland. My suits are made in England, my shirts in France and my ties in Italy. My sneakers are made in Taiwan. I watch a TV made in Korea and a Projector made in Japan on a screen made in Norway. Using an Oppo Blu-ray player made in China. I insure my home with a company based in Switzerland and my bank is owned by guys in Hong Kong. I use arguably the world's best room correction software and it's made in Sweden. As is the desk I am sitting at and the chair I am sitting on. My oven was made by Germans and my dishwasher made by Americans. The floor in the kitchen came from a quarry in Italy.

But hey, I want an amplifier made in the good old US of A, because then I will be doing my bit. Really? I mean, really? It's not my responsibility to make sure the other guy has a job. That's his responsibility. My responsibility is to make sure I get the best I can get, at a price I'm happy to pay.

We live in the 21st century. In a global marketplace. So, to me, the notion of paying 25-40% more than I had to pay last year, so that a handful of people in Tennessee can build me an amplifier, made almost entirely of parts manufactured in Asia no less, is as ludicrous as driving a horse and carriage so that grooms remain in full employment. And were those people in Tennesse all unemployed before Emotiva made this momentous decision to offer less for more? Or did they just move from other jobs down the road? And if Emotiva's decision forces them out of business, will those people remain unemployed for ever?

So my advice is this: buy the best product you can, at the best price you can find and quit fretting about where it's made. Unless of course, every single thing you own is made in the country of your birth. If it is, then maybe, just maybe, you have a point.
Earlier you were discussing pro amps with another poster. At the end, you said it was his call, and you weren't trying to convince him, or something to that effect.
But now if someone wants to buy an American amp, suddenly they are not allowed to make that call? I don't see your logic here, either a person should have free will or they shouldn't.

I have a short list of countries whom I won't support economically if I have the option, and China is one of them. Human rights, internet espionage, building an island in the sea, and then extending their borders. Pirating technology stolen from foreign companies with factories in China. When a country ignores international law, it bothers me.

Most countries I'm fine with, and if a company manufactures in North America, that's cool with me too.

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post #156 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
Earlier you were discussing pro amps with another poster. At the end, you said it was his call, and you weren't trying to convince him, or something to that effect.
But now if someone wants to buy an American amp, suddenly they are not allowed to make that call? I don't see your logic here, either a person should have free will or they shouldn't.
Can you quote me the part where I say that?

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I have a short list of countries whom I won't support economically if I have the option, and China is one of them. Human rights, internet espionage, building an island in the sea, and then extending their borders. Pirating technology stolen from foreign companies with factories in China. When a country ignores international law, it bothers me.
Fair enough. Your call. Not mine though - I don't make purchasing decisions based on politics.

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Most countries I'm fine with, and if a company manufactures in North America, that's cool with me too.
Of course. I think you misunderstood my point. Some posters in the thread were saying they believed that 'made in America' was a good thing in itself and even if it made the prices higher, that was still a good thing in itself. I was countering that viewpoint with a different viewpoint: that of it not mattering where a product is made so long as the quality is good.
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post #157 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 10:27 AM
 
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Well if your speakers are good enough you will hear a difference.
For sure u would hear the A/B difference if you would have a listen here.


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I am one of those who could hear a difference with an XPA amp vs another, and it wasn't subtle. I didn't have to strain or concentrate to hear it, and I was shocked because I had believed that all amps were the same up until that point.
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post #158 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 12:21 PM
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I am one of those who could hear a difference with an XPA amp vs another, and it wasn't subtle. I didn't have to strain or concentrate to hear it, and I was shocked because I had believed that all amps were the same up until that point.
What amp was that if I may ask?

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post #159 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 12:27 PM
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Well if your speakers are good enough you will hear a difference.
For sure u would hear the A/B difference if you would have a listen here.


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Your right, my system is very sub par.
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post #160 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 12:45 PM
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What amp was that if I may ask?
For me it's XPA vs Electrocompaniet.
Speakers are PMC IB2i

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post #161 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 12:55 PM
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Big price hikes over the Gen 2 models. Made in the USA accounting for that?
Well, they're moving to using distributors I think I heard. Their pricing was built around not giving up margin to distributors in the supply channel. Since others are reselling their stuff, they need to margin to sell through someone else and still make money.

Most people didn't need this much amplification. Look through the emotiva posters here and you see things like power conditioners, fancy cables, etc. Just snake oil
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post #162 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 12:57 PM
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Not completely true.
The xpa sounds similar to a Rotel RMB1075.
But higher class still sounds better.
I haven't heard xpa2 or 1 or the xpr.
But the xpa-200 for example is similar to the xpa-5.

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Double blind tests show no differences in amplification in volume equalized tests below clipping.

You in the market for some great property in Florida? I can give you a good price. Great stuff I assure you.
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post #163 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
So Emotiva, having built their entire success to date, and their business model entirely, on manufacturing in China and passing the savings of so doing onto their customers in the form of very highly specified amplifiers at exceptionally good prices, suddenly decide they are, at heart, down-home Tennessee boys with a duty to 'make it in America'.

Let's think about it. I use an iPhone, and a Mac, made in China. I have loudspeakers from England, Canada and Denmark. I drive a Jaguar made in England, but from a company owned in India. My car before was a Mercedes made in Germany. I've owned cars made by Honda in Japan too. I drink coffee from Brazil, tea from Ceylon, beer from Holland, stout from Ireland, whisky from Scotland, red wine from Australia and white wine from New Zealand. Oh, and water fromr France. I eat oranges from Spain, peaches from France, bananas from the Caribbean and tomatoes from Italy. My wristwatch is made in Switzerland. My suits are made in England, my shirts in France and my ties in Italy. My sneakers are made in Taiwan. I watch a TV made in Korea and a Projector made in Japan on a screen made in Norway. Using an Oppo Blu-ray player made in China. I insure my home with a company based in Switzerland and my bank is owned by guys in Hong Kong. I use arguably the world's best room correction software and it's made in Sweden. As is the desk I am sitting at and the chair I am sitting on. My oven was made by Germans and my dishwasher made by Americans. The floor in the kitchen came from a quarry in Italy.

But hey, I want an amplifier made in the good old US of A, because then I will be doing my bit. Really? I mean, really? It's not my responsibility to make sure the other guy has a job. That's his responsibility. My responsibility is to make sure I get the best I can get, at a price I'm happy to pay.

We live in the 21st century. In a global marketplace. So, to me, the notion of paying 25-40% more than I had to pay last year, so that a handful of people in Tennessee can build me an amplifier, made almost entirely of parts manufactured in Asia no less, is as ludicrous as driving a horse and carriage so that grooms remain in full employment. And were those people in Tennesse all unemployed before Emotiva made this momentous decision to offer less for more? Or did they just move from other jobs down the road? And if Emotiva's decision forces them out of business, will those people remain unemployed for ever?

So my advice is this: buy the best product you can, at the best price you can find and quit fretting about where it's made. Unless of course, every single thing you own is made in the country of your birth. If it is, then maybe, just maybe, you have a point.
You, sir, are clearly a bon vivant!

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post #164 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 01:15 PM
 
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What amp was that if I may ask?
It was a Parasound Halo amp, the A21.
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post #165 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 01:16 PM
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Double blind tests show no differences in amplification in volume equalized tests below clipping.

You in the market for some great property in Florida? I can give you a good price. Great stuff I assure you.
I'll go one further. My Electrocompaniet sounds different after 1hr when it is heated up.

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post #166 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 01:37 PM
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I'm glad to hear Emotiva coming out with new gear.
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post #167 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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In case anyone wonders what motivates me personally, when it comes to posting AV news like this Emotiva Emersa piece, it's the pride of beating the likes of CNET and Sound & Vision in Google rankings for a search. In this case, a search for "Emotiva Emersa" brings up this article in the #2 slot, right after emotiva.com; it doesn't get much better than that.

Looking up just "Emersa" brings up some non-audio results, but this article is still the #1 result as far as editorial an forum-related search results are, as well as being number 5 overall. The lively discussion here helps make it so, so thank you all.
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post #168 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 01:50 PM
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Most people didn't need this much amplification. Look through the emotiva posters here and you see things like power conditioners, fancy cables, etc. Just snake oil
Yes, almost invariably a waste of money. Unfortunately, AV is still an area where science gives way to mythology and fantasy. I’d guess, too, that the overwhelming majority of users are loping along on 10 watts or less the vast majority of the time. The better AVRs these days have enough power for most.

HST, there is a place for more powerful amps of course - those with insensitive speakers, or hard to drive low or unstable ohm speakers, or those who like to listen at movie reference, or who sit a long way from the speakers etc may find more clean power is useful. But just assuming a more powerful amp is going to make some sort of difference, regardless is, I agree, futile.
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post #169 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 01:52 PM
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You, sir, are clearly a bon vivant!
I am guessing pretty much everyone is in a similar situation though wrt to the things they own and where they are made. (Was it the bananas that caused you to make that remark, BTW? LOL).
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post #170 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 01:54 PM
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I'm glad to hear Emotiva coming out with new gear.
Yes, me too. The only thing I dislike is the price hikes. The new Emersa Class D amps look pretty reasonable, on paper. The 2 channel 150 wpc unit replaces the XPA-200 and takes half the rack space, runs almost cold and weighs very little. About time. Just a pity it costs so much more.
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post #171 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 03:42 PM
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who hired this man Keith to answer techstuff for emotiva?
http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/t...ss-amps?page=7
http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/t...s-amps?page=10

seriosuly, first he claims that class D are "digital" amps, when they are nowhere near that.. then he suggest only tube amps are single ended, when all class D amps ARE considered single ended designs.(which they are now selling) there are no separate transistors doing + and - of the wave, and no crossover distortion for that matter.
for many years i have suspected that Emotiva products have been designed in-house at the factory in china. they certainly were at some point, along with sunfire, sherwood, outlaw? since they were all the same. but then i got some emails from them that didnt make any sense, they didnt understand the most basic 101 electronic questions. yet they strut around pretending like they are some independent advanced engineers doing work in the US. seriously, its embarrassing. they come across any other western rebranded chinese company.
chinese products are fine.. just dont sit there and wave a flag and suggest you made this.
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post #172 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 03:51 PM
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Yes, me too. The only thing I dislike is the price hikes. The new Emersa Class D amps look pretty reasonable, on paper. The 2 channel 150 wpc unit replaces the XPA-200 and takes half the rack space, runs almost cold and weighs very little. About time. Just a pity it costs so much more.
I guess there trying keep with Audio Control amps they are H rated.
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post #173 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 04:16 PM
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who hired this man Keith to answer techstuff for emotiva?
http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/t...ss-amps?page=7
http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/t...s-amps?page=10

seriosuly, first he claims that class D are "digital" amps, when they are nowhere near that.. then he suggest only tube amps are single ended, when all class D amps ARE considered single ended designs.(which they are now selling) there are no separate transistors doing + and - of the wave, and no crossover distortion for that matter.
for many years i have suspected that Emotiva products have been designed in-house at the factory in china. they certainly were at some point, along with sunfire, sherwood, outlaw? since they were all the same. but then i got some emails from them that didnt make any sense, they didnt understand the most basic 101 electronic questions. yet they strut around pretending like they are some independent advanced engineers doing work in the US. seriously, its embarrassing. they come across any other western rebranded chinese company.
chinese products are fine.. just dont sit there and wave a flag and suggest you made this.
I smell a pseudo forum name because someone wants to say something anonymously.
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post #174 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 04:28 PM
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...I am willing to wager that you nor anyone else would be able to pick out a high end amp vs an Emotiva in a double blind test. Emotiva doesn't get the social status of a...

As I expected.


I'm actually envious of you though. Whether it's just my brain telling me there is a difference, or there actually is one (amps measure differently and are built with different components in the signal path after all, so why shouldn't they sound different?), my enjoyment will likely need to come at a higher price point than yours.


So as not to turn this into an "all amps sound/don't sound the same" thread, for the sake of everyone's sanity and since no one will change anyone else's mind on the matter, this will be my last post in the thread.


EDIT: After reading through the last couple pages, it seems that the thread has already turned into that^^. I still will remain silent.

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Last edited by adrummingdude; 12-13-2015 at 04:33 PM.
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post #175 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe80 View Post
who hired this man Keith to answer techstuff for emotiva?
http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/t...ss-amps?page=7
http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/t...s-amps?page=10

seriosuly, first he claims that class D are "digital" amps, when they are nowhere near that.. then he suggest only tube amps are single ended, when all class D amps ARE considered single ended designs.(which they are now selling) there are no separate transistors doing + and - of the wave, and no crossover distortion for that matter.
for many years i have suspected that Emotiva products have been designed in-house at the factory in china. they certainly were at some point, along with sunfire, sherwood, outlaw? since they were all the same. but then i got some emails from them that didnt make any sense, they didnt understand the most basic 101 electronic questions. yet they strut around pretending like they are some independent advanced engineers doing work in the US. seriously, its embarrassing. they come across any other western rebranded chinese company.
chinese products are fine.. just dont sit there and wave a flag and suggest you made this.
That guy, Keith L, has made similar embarrassing gaffes in the past, as has their 'chief designer' Lonnie IIRC. They made similar basic errors revealing a total lack of understanding about the bass management in the UMC-1 processor too. If you recall, the BM in the UMC-1 was incorrectly implemented - Lonnie insisted they had 'designed' it that way! It all points to the units being designed in China, as you say, and then rebadged for sale in the US. Nothing wrong with that, if it is done well, of course - but no company should pretend to design stuff when they really don't, and often don't have a clue as to what they are talking about. Just calls the credibility of the company into question. Similar incorrect claims were also made about the XMC-1 during its long gestation period.
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post #176 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 05:55 PM
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Emotiva Updates XPA Amplifiers to Generation 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by normanu View Post
I'll go one further. My Electrocompaniet sounds different after 1hr when it is heated up.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

So is it a crappy design or is it broken and awaiting repair?
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post #177 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post
As I expected.


I'm actually envious of you though. Whether it's just my brain telling me there is a difference, or there actually is one (amps measure differently and are built with different components in the signal path after all, so why shouldn't they sound different?), my enjoyment will likely need to come at a higher price point than yours.


So as not to turn this into an "all amps sound/don't sound the same" thread, for the sake of everyone's sanity and since no one will change anyone else's mind on the matter, this will be my last post in the thread.


EDIT: After reading through the last couple pages, it seems that the thread has already turned into that^^. I still will remain silent.
Just because a few members took it upon themselves to act as the amplifier police doesn't mean the discussion should come to a grinding halt. I prefer discussion to dogma, nuance to negativity.

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post #178 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 06:28 PM
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Yep the all everything crowd comes in and pushes the science of it all and shuts it all down.
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JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.
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post #179 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
Not sure why this forum still produces so many double posts, or are only Mac users suffering through this?
Mac User here and yes, incredibly annoying.
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post #180 of 961 Old 12-13-2015, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I am guessing pretty much everyone is in a similar situation though wrt to the things they own and where they are made. (Was it the bananas that caused you to make that remark, BTW? LOL).
Jaguar. Mercedes. Rarified air for me. I buy high end toilet paper when it's on sale. That and "Two Buck Chuck" if it's not sold out. All in good fun.

Most folks on this thread are trying to get the biggest bang for their buck and learn as much as they can to improve their HT setup and enjoyment.

For what it's worth, I've really enjoyed my Emotiva XPA-3, Gen 2 amplifier even though I'm mixing a Class A/B with a Class D AVR/Integrated amp. (Blasphemy)

I can, however, tell the sonic difference between my Emotiva L/C/R speakers versus the rest of my setup that is using my Pioneer Elite SC-65 AVR. I had the double blind tests and two succinct graphs to support this but I had a hard drive crash and can't replicate them easily. You'll just have to take my word for it.
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Home Theater Setup
SONY 75X900F & 49X900E, BenQ W1080ST, Denon X5200 & Emotiva XPA-3
AudioSource 100VS, OPPO 103 & Samsung K8500, 9.1.4 Setup - Speakers - Studio 60's,
V.2 (FL/FR), CC-690 (C), V.5, ADP 590 V.5 (SS), MilleniaOne 2.0 (BS) - Velodyne 810 Sub,
Cornered Audio (FH/RH), Definitive Technology (Front Wides)
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