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-   -   Denon AVR-x2200w vs Onkyo TX-NR646 (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/2263954-denon-avr-x2200w-vs-onkyo-tx-nr646.html)

soapboxpreacher 12-28-2015 07:43 AM

Denon AVR-x2200w vs Onkyo TX-NR646
 
So I am in the market for a new AV receiver and these two fit my budget. I currently have a Denon 2311ci that just lacks some features and I am looking to start building my 4K setup so the 2311ci will be on eBay shortly. My room is 18x18 with 8' ceilings. I currently have a 5.1 setup consisting over front klipsch reference 5.3I believe and kilpsch dipole 4.3 in the rear with an rc10 center. I also have a rythmik 12 port sub. My 2311ci is rated for 130 watts x7. I am first concerned that the x2200 might be under powered. But I like the feature set tremendously. I do like to turn it up some but not over board when we watch movies. It is purely a tv/movie setup, no music. I am planning on adding some ceiling speakers as well for my sides. I am trying to keep my expenses for the receiver under 700. The denon is on sale for 599 and the Onkyo is the same. The Onkyo is rated for 5 watts more. Power isn't as my driving factor as much as sound quality, sorround quality and 4K. I sorround fields and fullness, imaging and so on are my main points. Back in the day when I bought my 2311 I had a pioneer 1123k I tested along side the 2311 as well as a Yamaha and the denon clearly had the better fuller sound, better imaging, better dialogue and better fuller bass. So the other went back. Let me know what you guys think. Or if I should consider something else. Dts X/atoms seems like it would be wise to have considering my speaker layout with the two side ceiling so I believe I should be looking at units that support it. Once again let me know. Hope I gave you guys enough info. Thanks.

jdsmoothie 12-28-2015 08:08 AM

Power difference between the three models will be moot, although the 2311CI is rated at 105W/2CH and the 646 is rated at 100W/2CH and the X2200W is rated at 95W/2CH. The X2200W uses the same version of Audyssey as does your 2311CI which is likely to provide better audio quality than ACCUEQ on the Onkyo.

soapboxpreacher 12-28-2015 10:15 AM

thanks jdsmoothie, so it seems like you like the X2200W better. Considering the price is equal (because of the sale) the denon to me seems like a better option. I can get the Onkyo 838 for the same as the X2200W as well but it is last years model, has no DTS:X but does have power and a better block/transformer. But I do like the DAC on the 646. Seems like onkyo has stepped up their game! The 192K/24 Bit DACs Burr-Brown is on the 838 and the 646 has a 384 kHz/32-bit Hi-Grade DAC Asahi Kasei AKM4458. What does denon use for their DAC?

jdsmoothie 12-28-2015 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soapboxpreacher (Post 40097378)
thanks jdsmoothie, so it seems like you like the X2200W better. Considering the price is equal (because of the sale) the denon to me seems like a better option. I can get the Onkyo 838 for the same as the X2200W as well but it is last years model, has no DTS:X but does have power and a better block/transformer. But I do like the DAC on the 646. Seems like onkyo has stepped up their game! The 192K/24 Bit DACs Burr-Brown is on the 838 and the 646 has a 384 kHz/32-bit Hi-Grade DAC Asahi Kasei AKM4458. What does denon use for their DAC?

Depends on the model. On the X3200W and lower models, AFAIK, 192K/24 bit PCM 1690.

nohcho 12-28-2015 10:53 AM

Denon AVR-x2200w vs Onkyo TX-NR646
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by soapboxpreacher (Post 40097378)
thanks jdsmoothie, so it seems like you like the X2200W better. Considering the price is equal (because of the sale) the denon to me seems like a better option. I can get the Onkyo 838 for the same as the X2200W as well but it is last years model, has no DTS:X but does have power and a better block/transformer. But I do like the DAC on the 646. Seems like onkyo has stepped up their game! The 192K/24 Bit DACs Burr-Brown is on the 838 and the 646 has a 384 kHz/32-bit Hi-Grade DAC Asahi Kasei AKM4458. What does denon use for their DAC?


Keep in mind that jd smoothie is heavily on Denon's side, in fact that is the only thing (and marantz) he ever recommends.

That being said, 646 has higher grade DAC, a little more robust amp section, both will have atmos and dts x. 646 is a purely pass through only avr so no upscaling of any sort. The smart phone app on onkyo is much better than what denon has going on. Two year warranty vs three on x2200. Onkyo has alot more music app built in for online listening like shazam deezer and Tune in which x2200 lacks.


X2200 has a lower grade dac so higher dsd files are a no go, it has audyssey xt, which is better than accueq, has hdcp 2.2 on all inputs vs three on 646. Three year warranty vs two on 646. X2200 has an analog upscaling as well as hdmi upscaling, atmos and dts x.


Hopefully this will help you make a decision.


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nohcho 12-28-2015 11:03 AM

Denon AVR-x2200w vs Onkyo TX-NR646
 
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Prime316 12-28-2015 11:22 AM

I have also been looking at these two receivers. I have an Onkyo 809 right now (going out for repairs) so I'm used to Audyssey XT. From what I've read, the 646 no longer has Audyssey but the X2200 does. I don't really do a lot of music streaming. I am watching movies 97% of the time. As recently as last night, I was going to forgo Atmos and maybe I will....all depends on watch DTS:X does. I believe both receiver have access to both.


I will be ordering one of the two within the next hour. Anymore input?

jdsmoothie 12-28-2015 11:50 AM

Either model gives you the option of Atmos and DTS:X 5.2.2, but the X2200W has the Audyssey MultEQ XT. ;)

Prime316 12-28-2015 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdsmoothie (Post 40100082)
Either model gives you the option of Atmos and DTS:X 5.2.2, but the X2200W has the Audyssey MultEQ XT. ;)


I would like to stay with Onkyo and I guess I am by keeping my 809 (once it's fixed) but I'm am rather suspicious about their move to save money by dropping Audyssey which I happen to like. I'm not sure how well their new room correction works. I'm used to XT and maybe it's time to switch it up a little. I placed my order for the X2200.

soapboxpreacher 12-28-2015 09:12 PM

I ended up grabbing an Onkyo 747 as well as a Denon X2200W. Gonna hook them both up and the victor stays! Was able to find both for a very reasonable price. X2200W was 599 and the 747 I got for 639...open box.

nohcho 12-28-2015 09:15 PM

Let us know which one wins

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pooter03 12-30-2015 09:17 AM

I'm in the same position. Upgrading an older Onkyo and am waffling between the 646 and the Denon x220W. This is primarily for movies and games, not music. I'm leaning Onkyo, but the Denon is looking better and better.

jdsmoothie 12-30-2015 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soapboxpreacher (Post 40116858)
I ended up grabbing an Onkyo 747 as well as a Denon X2200W. Gonna hook them both up and the victor stays! Was able to find both for a very reasonable price. X2200W was 599 and the 747 I got for 639...open box.

Denon has reduced the MSRP on the X2200W from $799 to $599 thru this Saturday. :)

pooter03 12-30-2015 10:30 AM

I decided to stick with what I know and ended up getting the Onkyo 646. It arrives on Saturday.

DrewB 12-30-2015 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pooter03 (Post 40158746)
I decided to stick with what I know and ended up getting the Onkyo 646. It arrives on Saturday.

Where from?

jplyman325 12-30-2015 10:40 PM

Sign up for Fry's promo code and if your local Fry's has the X3200 you can pick it up for $499 plus tax - I was looking at the X2200 or the Marantz SR5009 from A4L until I found out about this sale - i'm now enjoying my new X3200

spieg 12-30-2015 10:58 PM

A little late to the game here but I had always been an Onkyo fan. I went from a 505 to a 709 to a 646. After having the 646 for a little while, I really missed audyssey. AccuEQ was horrible for me. If you value room correction at all, its a no brainer in my opinion. I ended up jumping to an x4200w almost solely based on xt32. I definitely preferred the bluetooth implementation in the Onkyo, but other than that, I like everything about the Denon better. I realize that the 646 to the 4200 isnt really a fair comparison, but accueq was so horrible for me I wont own another Onkyo until they do something different/better. My 646 has been relegated to music duty in the basement for now.

nohcho 12-31-2015 12:08 AM

X4200 is a solid piece of equipment, enjoy

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pooter03 12-31-2015 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrewB (Post 40177274)
Where from?

Amazon for $527. I had $50 in rewards and used a credit card that gave 10% cash back, so it was a decent deal. They even threw in a free copy of Kung Fu Panda. :)

jsb75 12-31-2015 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spieg (Post 40178970)
A little late to the game here but I had always been an Onkyo fan. I went from a 505 to a 709 to a 646. After having the 646 for a little while, I really missed audyssey. AccuEQ was horrible for me. If you value room correction at all, its a no brainer in my opinion. I ended up jumping to an x4200w almost solely based on xt32. I definitely preferred the bluetooth implementation in the Onkyo, but other than that, I like everything about the Denon better. I realize that the 646 to the 4200 isnt really a fair comparison, but accueq was so horrible for me I wont own another Onkyo until they do something different/better. My 646 has been relegated to music duty in the basement for now.

What was the problem with accueq? Wrong distance and such or just sounded like crap? Also is there a manual eq on the 646?

Prime316 12-31-2015 10:16 AM

I also left Onkyo behind for A Denon unit this time because of the lack of audyssey but it seems that even though the Denon has the same version that my Onkyo 800 has that it does not have the same capabilities.

spieg 12-31-2015 10:26 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by jsb75 (Post 40183890)
What was the problem with accueq? Wrong distance and such or just sounded like crap? Also is there a manual eq on the 646?

I dont want to give the wrong impression, its still a good receiver. It set distance and levels ok, but that's basically all it does. As far as flattening out response, it actually made some peaks worse in my room. It does offer manual EQ, but from memory I think you are only allowed 8 frequencies, and there isn't much granularity. Almost nothing on the low end. If room correction doesnt matter to someone, it's got a solid feature set. But if you value room correction, accueq is enough reason in and of itself to look elsewhere in my opinion. Here's a graph of accueq(orange line) vs audyssey(blue line; audyssey reference curve) in my room. I ran them back to back with the 646 and then the 4200. These are averages of my LCR+Sub.

Prime316 12-31-2015 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soapboxpreacher (Post 40116858)
I ended up grabbing an Onkyo 747 as well as a Denon X2200W. Gonna hook them both up and the victor stays! Was able to find both for a very reasonable price. X2200W was 599 and the 747 I got for 639...open box.


And the winner is?

jsb75 12-31-2015 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spieg (Post 40189194)
I dont want to give the wrong impression, its still a good receiver. It set distance and levels ok, but that's basically all it does. As far as flattening out response, it actually made some peaks worse in my room. It does offer manual EQ, but from memory I think you are only allowed 8 frequencies, and there isn't much granularity. Almost nothing on the low end. If room correction doesnt matter to someone, it's got a solid feature set. But if you value room correction, accueq is enough reason in and of itself to look elsewhere in my opinion. Here's a graph of accueq(orange line) vs audyssey(blue line; audyssey reference curve) in my room. I ran them back to back with the 646 and then the 4200. These are averages of my LCR+Sub.

Thanks for the reply. Been trying to find out any info on accueq now that it eq's the fronts and sub. Guess it's just as crappy as last years

DrewB 12-31-2015 03:45 PM

I was just starting to settle on the 646 and now it sounds like Accueq is even worse than mcacc. guess it's now time to look at Denons.

jsb75 12-31-2015 04:55 PM

Yeah, I was leaning towards the 646 also. Might wait to see what the 2016 crop of receivers have to offer

spieg 12-31-2015 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsb75 (Post 40201266)
Yeah, I was leaning towards the 646 also. Might wait to see what the 2016 crop of receivers have to offer

Since you're in GR, if you decide you want the 646 send me a PM. I know where you can get a good deal on a very lightly used one. ;)

soapboxpreacher 01-03-2016 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prime316 (Post 40190834)
And the winner is?

The x2200w just showed up late yesterday and the Onkyo is scheduled for tomorrow. Gonna get the denon in this afternoon. Will let you guys know.

soapboxpreacher 01-03-2016 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prime316 (Post 40190834)
And the winner is?

The x2200w just showed up late yesterday and the Onkyo is scheduled for tomorrow. Gonna get the denon in this afternoon. Will let you guys know.

jsb75 01-05-2016 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soapboxpreacher (Post 40263010)
The x2200w just showed up late yesterday and the Onkyo is scheduled for tomorrow. Gonna get the denon in this afternoon. Will let you guys know.

So how do they sound?

soapboxpreacher 01-05-2016 09:30 PM

So I got both setup and tried the Denon for a Day and the Onkyo for a Day. Early observations are: The Denon produces significantly better video. My picture detail, sharpness, and so on have improved!!! This I was not expecting at all!! So that video processor is either not degrading via pass thru or it is processing. Either way my picture looks AMAZING going thru the Denon! Ill take it! As for the Onkyo the picture when passing thru the HDMI gets degraded.. huge disappointment. As a long time Onkyo owner and one that got stung by the HDMI issues in the past this is really frustrating. Not that the picture is bad but there is a noticable difference. All thru the same cables and Samsung 65" HDTV. Now on to the sounds early observations. Dialogue is better on the denon...you get more detail and clarity. It isnt a big difference like the video differences but it is noticeable. Bass the onkyo is nothing short of amazing. I replayed tron legacy light cycle scene about 20x on both! The scene where the two go guys sandwich the bad guys bike! It is a rumbler!! My FV12 really rolled the floor. It was also more apparent during Star Wars ep 2 of the nubian craft enters the atmosphere as well as the seismic charge sequence. Have lots more listening to do. I do not like the calibration of the Onkyo AccuEQ is complete garbage!! It crossed my main at 120hz...we are talking about Klipsch RF52. They arent bookself speakers!!! I believe they should be xover to something in the neighborhood of 60-80hz. Audessey is significantly more accurate and more comprehensive!! These are early observation but the where also the obvious ones. The AccuEQ takes a few minutes where as the Audessey takes 20 mins with multiple measure positions. AccuEQ...one location? It also didnt crossover my towers correctly! Level were also very goofy! They should not have cut this corner! The Onkyo does have more balls but it is more like a bull in a china shop than somes powerful yet refined! The Denon which I thought was going to be inferior is actually my early favorite. I just need to see how I cant get my sub to perform better with it. I am going to post another thread on how to config my sub with the denon. I hope this is a case of a bad LFE port on the denon where I lose all my dynamics. The guys over at SVS have said in the past to watch for this. Know how my sub performs I believe I need to take a deeper look. More to come!

Stangvert2000gt 01-05-2016 09:38 PM

I still like to play SACD and DVD-A discs, so I went with the Onkyo N646. No regrets. Plays everything great. Very punchy sounds for Atmos discs. I didn't try the higher model Denons, but I did try the AVR-S910W, but returned it for the Onkyo. The AVR-S910W wasn't more docile and didn't support SACD's or DVD-A.

Stangvert2000gt 01-05-2016 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stangvert2000gt (Post 40361090)
I still like to play SACD and DVD-A discs, so I went with the Onkyo N646. No regrets. Plays everything great. Very punchy sounds for Atmos discs. I didn't try the higher model Denons, but I did try the AVR-S910W, but returned it for the Onkyo. The AVR-S910W wasn't more docile and didn't support SACD's or DVD-A.

I also didn't like that fact that I needed to turn the volume of the Denon almost all the way up to get decent volume for movies.

Prime316 01-05-2016 09:44 PM

I got a chance to do some more critical viewing with my X2200 earlier. I agree, the picture does seem sharper than with my Onkyo 809.

What jumped out at me more were that my subs seemed to performing better at lower levels than with the 809. Not that my subs need any help in any size room. I actually had to back them down a notch or two.

I threw in the original Iron Man where Stark builds the armor in the cave. When he was walking around in that thing, my subs made it sound as if that armor weighed thousands of pounds...lol.

Prime316 01-05-2016 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stangvert2000gt (Post 40361178)
I also didn't like that fact that I needed to turn the volume of the Denon almost all the way up to get decent volume for movies.

You're right about the volume deal when comparing Denoms and Onkyos. It seems that Denons while less powerful are a bit more refined. It's only a couple extra clicks of the volume button to get what I need out of the X2200.

nohcho 01-05-2016 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soapboxpreacher (Post 40360826)
So I got both setup and tried the Denon for a Day and the Onkyo for a Day. Early observations are: The Denon produces significantly better video. My picture detail, sharpness, and so on have improved!!! This I was not expecting at all!! So that video processor is either not degrading via pass thru or it is processing. Either way my picture looks AMAZING going thru the Denon! Ill take it! As for the Onkyo the picture when passing thru the HDMI gets degraded.. huge disappointment. As a long time Onkyo owner and one that got stung by the HDMI issues in the past this is really frustrating. Not that the picture is bad but there is a noticable difference. All thru the same cables and Samsung 65" HDTV. Now on to the sounds early observations. Dialogue is better on the denon...you get more detail and clarity. It isnt a big difference like the video differences but it is noticeable. Bass the onkyo is nothing short of amazing. I replayed tron legacy light cycle scene about 20x on both! The scene where the two go guys sandwich the bad guys bike! It is a rumbler!! My FV12 really rolled the floor. It was also more apparent during Star Wars ep 2 of the nubian craft enters the atmosphere as well as the seismic charge sequence. Have lots more listening to do. I do not like the calibration of the Onkyo AccuEQ is complete garbage!! It crossed my main at 120hz...we are talking about Klipsch RF52. They arent bookself speakers!!! I believe they should be xover to something in the neighborhood of 60-80hz. Audessey is significantly more accurate and more comprehensive!! These are early observation but the where also the obvious ones. The AccuEQ takes a few minutes where as the Audessey takes 20 mins with multiple measure positions. AccuEQ...one location? It also didnt crossover my towers correctly! Level were also very goofy! They should not have cut this corner! The Onkyo does have more balls but it is more like a bull in a china shop than somes powerful yet refined! The Denon which I thought was going to be inferior is actually my early favorite. I just need to see how I cant get my sub to perform better with it. I am going to post another thread on how to config my sub with the denon. I hope this is a case of a bad LFE port on the denon where I lose all my dynamics. The guys over at SVS have said in the past to watch for this. Know how my sub performs I believe I need to take a deeper look. More to come!


There are few reviews out there that knock denon x series for lack of any low end punch so im not sure if there is anything that could be done about that. Even my x3200 was quite lacking in the base department compared to vsx90. I have svs sb 12nsd sub btw.


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spieg 01-05-2016 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soapboxpreacher (Post 40360826)
I just need to see how I cant get my sub to perform better with it. I am going to post another thread on how to config my sub with the denon. I hope this is a case of a bad LFE port on the denon where I lose all my dynamics. The guys over at SVS have said in the past to watch for this. Know how my sub performs I believe I need to take a deeper look. More to come!

Do you have a way to measure response? On my 646, AccuEQ didnt really do anything with the low end so I had some nasty peaks compared to audyssey. Some frequencies sounded a lot louder, for sure. But the overall bass response was smoother after running audyssey. Maybe Audyssey is pulling down some of your low end frequencies to level things out and that is what's making the bass less impactful on the Denon. Have you tried boosting your subwoofer levels a few DB's in the speaker settings? Audyssey will adjust the levels to hit reference and im not sure AccuEQ does. Audyssey also doesnt always get delay right. If the delay between your mains and subs isnt right that could potentially be affecting your low end as well. If you dont have a way to measure, just try increasing the distance setting for the sub on the denon 1ft at a time between tests and see if that helps.

On my Denon I had to adjust subwoofer levels (audyssey makes things very flat, most people prefer a boost in the 20-100hz range), and adjust delay a little bit. After doing so, there certainly isnt a lack of punch. And everything is a lot smoother overall. Just my $.02 for what its worth.

soapboxpreacher 01-05-2016 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stangvert2000gt (Post 40361178)
I also didn't like that fact that I needed to turn the volume of the Denon almost all the way up to get decent volume for movies.

I didnt find this at all. The output was higher then my 2311CI and that is rated 10 watts per channel more. I do have Klipsch RF52 which have a sensitivity of 96db so they do tend to sound louder with any amp. I was pleasantly surprised with the output of the X2200W, when I ordered it I was nervous about its rating. The Transformer is smaller than my 2311CI and only slightly smaller than the 747 but the capacitors are bigger on the X2200W than the 747.

soapboxpreacher 01-05-2016 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spieg (Post 40361778)
Do you have a way to measure response? On my 646, AccuEQ didnt really do anything with the low end so I had some nasty peaks compared to audyssey. Some frequencies sounded a lot louder, for sure. But the overall bass response was smoother after running audyssey. Maybe Audyssey is pulling down some of your low end frequencies to level things out and that is what's making the bass less impactful on the Denon. Have you tried boosting your subwoofer levels a few DB's in the speaker settings? Audyssey will adjust the levels to hit reference and im not sure AccuEQ does. Audyssey also doesnt always get delay right. If the delay between your mains and subs isnt right that could potentially be affecting your low end as well. If you dont have a way to measure, just try increasing the distance setting for the sub on the denon 1ft at a time between tests and see if that helps.

On my Denon I had to adjust subwoofer levels (audyssey makes things very flat, most people prefer a boost in the 20-100hz range), and adjust delay a little bit. After doing so, there certainly isnt a lack of punch. And everything is a lot smoother overall. Just my $.02 for what its worth.


Spieg you might have something here!! I never thought of this but it is possible. The 747 seems to produce a ton of boomy bass at times. Exaggerates some of the frequencies that the denon and Audyssey smooth out or possibly smooth out too much. AccuEQ I believe doesnt do what you are describing. I will give it a shoot. I have an older FV12 Rythmik hooked up to the X2200W. As for a meter...dont laugh I only have an old Radio Shack SPL. Not sure how it would be used in this or if it could even help.

spieg 01-06-2016 03:54 AM

Using a mic and REW or something similar would be the easiest way to check it. You could probably use a frequency generator at specific frequencies with your SPL meter and then plot out the response for a similar result. I posted a REW graph of my accueq vs audyssey results back in post #22 . I intentionally left off all EQ on the subs and tried to make it as close of an "out of the box" type of comparison to remove other variables and just show the differences between the two for my room. There was a difference of ~9db at 50hz (higher on the Onkyo), but the entire 40-60hz range was quite a bit higher on the Onkyo. Adding a few db to the subwoofer channel on the Denon after running audyssey brought things up to more comparable levels without having the boomy peaks as with accueq. If your system/room responds similarly, I think that could definitely explain why the bass is louder on the Onkyo for you. Neither AccuEQ or Audyssey are perfect, but I definitely like what Audyssey is doing a lot more than what AccuEQ did (or didnt do).

jdsmoothie 01-06-2016 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stangvert2000gt (Post 40361178)
I also didn't like that fact that I needed to turn the volume of the Denon almost all the way up to get decent volume for movies.

Denon uses a logarithmic volume scale such that after running Audyssey, which sets reference movie volume level to 80/0db, average volume levels for most will be about 50-70/-30db to -10db.

jdsmoothie 01-06-2016 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soapboxpreacher (Post 40360826)
So I got both setup and tried the Denon for a Day and the Onkyo for a Day. Early observations are: The Denon produces significantly better video. My picture detail, sharpness, and so on have improved!!! This I was not expecting at all!! So that video processor is either not degrading via pass thru or it is processing. Either way my picture looks AMAZING going thru the Denon! Ill take it! As for the Onkyo the picture when passing thru the HDMI gets degraded.. huge disappointment. As a long time Onkyo owner and one that got stung by the HDMI issues in the past this is really frustrating. Not that the picture is bad but there is a noticable difference. All thru the same cables and Samsung 65" HDTV. Now on to the sounds early observations. Dialogue is better on the denon...you get more detail and clarity. It isnt a big difference like the video differences but it is noticeable. Bass the onkyo is nothing short of amazing. I replayed tron legacy light cycle scene about 20x on both! The scene where the two go guys sandwich the bad guys bike! It is a rumbler!! My FV12 really rolled the floor. It was also more apparent during Star Wars ep 2 of the nubian craft enters the atmosphere as well as the seismic charge sequence. Have lots more listening to do. I do not like the calibration of the Onkyo AccuEQ is complete garbage!! It crossed my main at 120hz...we are talking about Klipsch RF52. They arent bookself speakers!!! I believe they should be xover to something in the neighborhood of 60-80hz. Audessey is significantly more accurate and more comprehensive!! These are early observation but the where also the obvious ones. The AccuEQ takes a few minutes where as the Audessey takes 20 mins with multiple measure positions. AccuEQ...one location? It also didnt crossover my towers correctly! Level were also very goofy! They should not have cut this corner! The Onkyo does have more balls but it is more like a bull in a china shop than somes powerful yet refined! The Denon which I thought was going to be inferior is actually my early favorite. I just need to see how I cant get my sub to perform better with it. I am going to post another thread on how to config my sub with the denon. I hope this is a case of a bad LFE port on the denon where I lose all my dynamics. The guys over at SVS have said in the past to watch for this. Know how my sub performs I believe I need to take a deeper look. More to come!


For the best sub performance, ideally you'll want to perform a "Subwoofer Crawl" (google it) which will identify the best places in your room to place the sub which will result in the best performance at the main listening position (ie. mic position 1). Also, when taking the Audyssey mic positions, after doing the mic 1 position, the remaining 7 mic positions should all be within a 1-2' radius around that first mic position (ie. not where others actually sit, rather focusing only on the main listening position). The sub gain knob should be set to about 10 o'clock prior to running Audyssey such that the subwoofer level after Audyssey results in a setting between about -8db and -4db. Most will find the result to be rather weak, which can be resolved by going into the Manual Setup - Test Tones - Subwoofer and simply raising the level up about +3db to +5db (eg. if sub is set to -6db after Audyssey, bump it up to about -2db).

For more helpful information on the Denon X2200W, review posts 3-6 in the 2015 Denon AVR Owner's thread ....

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...dcp-2-2-a.html

soapboxpreacher 01-06-2016 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nohcho (Post 40361762)
There are few reviews out there that knock denon x series for lack of any low end punch so im not sure if there is anything that could be done about that. Even my x3200 was quite lacking in the base department compared to vsx90. I have svs sb 12nsd sub btw.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think I have found that audyssey can do this not the AVR. I reran mine and did the manual adjustments that seemed to really fix the issues.

soapboxpreacher 01-06-2016 04:10 PM

So I ran the Audyssey this AM and then did some manual adjustments to it. For starters I spoke with Rythmik and asked about what I should do prior to calibration. My FV12 has an older amp with a bass extension section on the amp. On there you have Freq and Damping. They said set it at 14hz for Freq and Low for Damping. I also set the level at 12 o'clock. And finally on the sub set the freq crossover at 120hz...its highest so the AVR would do the crossover. Then ran Audyssey. It set the speakers to full which they told me is a no no. So I manually adjusted it to small and set the crossover at 60hz for the fronts however I worry about the EQ...for it is set for what audyssey room calibration...not sure how I can get around it. LFE was on 100Hz on the denon in the bass section. Did a listen and the Denon is much better and dynamic more controlled and lower...and tons of power/punch. It hits lower then the Onkyo. The onkyo seems to have a hair more authority but that seems to be because it exaggerates the boomy section of bass more then the denon which some HT listener might find good...I dont because it overwhelms the other tracks making those details absent!! So as it stands...the denon in my subjective opinion is the better piece. AccuEQ is a failure! It made so many mistakes. To the untrained ear...not that mine is, might find it ok. I do not like it when doing back to back listening. I have more to do. So stay tuned.

jdsmoothie 01-06-2016 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soapboxpreacher (Post 40388234)
I think I have found that audyssey can do this not the AVR. I reran mine and did the manual adjustments that seemed to really fix the issues.

Exactly the case .. and as you learned, can be very easily improved up with some minor adjustments. :)

soapboxpreacher 01-09-2016 09:38 AM

Did more tweaking and the Denon looks to be staying. AccuEQ is just flat out bad! It exaggerated certain low frequencies after listening a number of times that it would overwhelm other parts of a movies track. I tried to adjust it out but then you would end up the other way. It is just a poor calibration tool. I did try calibrating it a few more times...and once again, would always get my towers in front incorrect. The 747 is not bad by any means I just found the denon to be better in my opinion. It has significantly better imaging, dialogue is more distinct, and overall cleaner. I will say this onkyo has came a long way from my older piece I had 7 years ago. This is a significantly improved product. If they went back to Audyssey I believe this would be very close. However I cant recommend the 747 from a picture standpoint. Seeing both back to back a number of time, the denons video handoff left the picture very nice. The 747 there was some loss. That is what put me over the edge. As for bass once I got the audyssey set right the bass on the denon was deeper and less intrusive. So the power was there without ruining the other parts of the movies soundtrack.

spieg 01-09-2016 10:47 AM

Glad to hear you got things dialed in!

Prime316 01-09-2016 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soapboxpreacher (Post 40480370)
Did more tweaking and the Denon looks to be staying. AccuEQ is just flat out bad! It exaggerated certain low frequencies after listening a number of times that it would overwhelm other parts of a movies track. I tried to adjust it out but then you would end up the other way. It is just a poor calibration tool. I did try calibrating it a few more times...and once again, would always get my towers in front incorrect. The 747 is not bad by any means I just found the denon to be better in my opinion. It has significantly better imaging, dialogue is more distinct, and overall cleaner. I will say this onkyo has came a long way from my older piece I had 7 years ago. This is a significantly improved product. If they went back to Audyssey I believe this would be very close. However I cant recommend the 747 from a picture standpoint. Seeing both back to back a number of time, the denons video handoff left the picture very nice. The 747 there was some loss. That is what put me over the edge. As for bass once I got the audyssey set right the bass on the denon was deeper and less intrusive. So the power was there without ruining the other parts of the movies soundtrack.



Glad I went for the X2200 instead of the 646. I had my suspicions about AccuEQ so I stayed with what I knew...Audyssey.

soapboxpreacher 01-10-2016 04:59 AM

Unfortunately discovered a small problem (major!!)...sad day! So I am not certain what the deal is but when I play certain Blu-rays via my xbox one the denon does something strange. It will dim the screen 50%!!! It is random in nature and only happens with the xbox one and denon x2200w combination. For example, I was playing the matrix revolution and when a scene switches to a dark area the screen dims 50% and stays there. If I unplug and replug in the HDMI while it is still going it will go back to full but will not stay. So I hooked up the 747...doesnt do this! I also tried the old 2311ci...doesnt do this either. I can duplicate the issues everytime and it doesnt just happen with the matrix, when my sons started a game of NHL 15 it did it as well. If I switch from the blu-ray source to the CBL/SAT it is bake to normal but doesnt stay. I believe to either have a bad unit or denon has a problem on their hands here! Once again I cannot tell you how much I like the sound better on the Denon but this is a major problem. Some background and why I believe this is pointing to the new denon is this. I have had the Xbox One hooked up to my old Denon 2311Ci for over a year, it has seen 100s of Blu-rays. All the cabling is the same (Xbox came with a 4k xbox one cable) so It is not a cabling issues not to mention it does NOT exhibit this with the 747 either. My trouble shooting has been power cycling on the xbox one, power cycle on the denon. I have tried different HDMIs on the X2200W as well. Still the same dimming issues. I have scoured google for this issue with no avail. It only does this with the xbox one. I might grab another blu-ray player to see if that is the case. Either I have a defective x2200w or this is a design issue. Either way it really breaks my heart!! Its a sad day!

soapboxpreacher 01-14-2016 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsb75 (Post 40341002)
So how do they sound?

I like the sound better on the X2200W. Imaging is better and depth is better. The Sub initially was more present on the 747 but once I redid the calibration on the Denon the denon is less muddy and more accurate. The Low frequency tracks would nearly wash out some of the mid subtle details on the 747. Video was significantly better on the Denon. It is cleaning and sharper with more depth as well. Power wise...I thought the 747 would have way more power...not the case. The 747 is good but I like the denon way better. AccuEQ is terrible! It cant as I have already mentioned get the fronts right. I have larger Klipsch REF52s and it would pick them up as 120Hz??? Terrible! I tried a ton of times and it would never get it right! I am an onkyo fan but this was an average offering from them. My 626/560 is a significant yet older improvement.

spectorcz 01-19-2016 04:40 PM

Soapboxpreacher,
did you figure out that issue with diming on Denon? That would be no go for me, if it has such bug. My local dealer recommended me Denon AVR-x2200w with Klipsch RF 52 II 5.0 set ? Is that reasonable set ? Yet considering Magnat Supreme 1002 5.0

nohcho 01-19-2016 07:44 PM

I would avoid klipsch RF if possible, they are pretty bright and get fatiguing after a period of time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

soapboxpreacher 01-20-2016 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spectorcz (Post 40796474)
Soapboxpreacher,
did you figure out that issue with diming on Denon? That would be no go for me, if it has such bug. My local dealer recommended me Denon AVR-x2200w with Klipsch RF 52 II 5.0 set ? Is that reasonable set ? Yet considering Magnat Supreme 1002 5.0

That is my set (klipsch). I like it however audyssey can make or break any speaker. In my case they didnt quite get my klipsch right because the horn can over power the highs and they EQ out a ton of stuff that caused my klipsch mains to get lost or less impactful. Once I adjusted some of audyssey misconfiguration my klipsch came alive such as going from reference to flat. As for recommending or not, speaker sound is subjective...some prefer a brighter, some prefer a warmer..etc. Dont let anyone ever talk you out of a speaker until you listen and make your own determination. No one typically has the same listen preferences...and when you factor audyssey in the mix it can alter a speaker that you might normal like so a speaker you dont like!! Audyssey is such a critical tool but one that needs to be watched and adjusted right! I think in most cases it can get you close and then you can make tweaks as I have.

spectorcz 01-21-2016 02:00 AM

thanks! It's good to know. Btw, what about the issue with brightness diming when you use Xbox One? You said that the issue stays also when you then switch to another source. It's quite dissapointing.

soapboxpreacher 01-21-2016 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spectorcz (Post 40839194)
thanks! It's good to know. Btw, what about the issue with brightness diming when you use Xbox One? You said that the issue stays also when you then switch to another source. It's quite dissapointing.

Factory/manufacturer reset took care of it. I have not yet seen the dimming issue since then. I retested the media I was having the issue with it and nothing since. Happy to say it works well.

spiroh 01-23-2016 08:18 AM

Good timing of this thread as I was about to buy a X2200W over others. Denon has been very good to me throughout the years so I'm glad to hear the audio still sounds great on them. Thanks

dingleberries 03-14-2016 06:27 PM

Purchased the Denon AVR 710W, X2200, and Onkyo NR-646. Here are thoughts of what may have already been mentioned. I owned and listened to each receiver for at least one week.

Denon Pros:
- Detailed clarity during movies.
- More available options: Eco mode, Audyssey, Dialog level adjust
- Better looking screen layout.

Denon Cons:
- Consistently lacked bass while watching movies. Although I made adjustments, I could not reproduce decent bass and thus the movie watching experience felt hollow.
- Volume needed to be turned up significantly.
- Speaker crossover could only be set in intervals of "20". ex: 40hz, 60hz

Onkyo Pros:
- Detailed clarity, bass, sounds were full and didn't lack anything.
- Volume levels were more consistent.
- Speaker crossover's could be set in intervals of "10". ex. 40hz, 50hz
- Ability to manually adjust treble, and bass.

Onkyo Cons:
- Lackluster screen layout, but manageable.
- Only 3, 2.2 HDMI compliant outputs.

Final Decision: I will be returning the Denon X2200 and re-purchasing the Onkyo 646. Should have stayed with the Onkyo but wanted to make sure I wasn't missing out on anything with the x2200.

jdsmoothie 03-14-2016 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dingleberries (Post 42393841)
Denon Cons:
- Consistently lacked bass while watching movies. Although I made adjustments, I could not reproduce decent bass and thus the movie watching experience felt hollow.
- Volume needed to be turned up significantly.
- Speaker crossover could only be set in intervals of "20". ex: 40hz, 60hz

1. Many owners find the bass to be a little weak after running Audyssey, which simply requires boosting the subwoofer level about 3-5db to suit one's preference.
2. Speaker crossovers vary from 10db to 50db depending on where the crossover is situated. The general recommendation after running Audyssey is to raise any crossover set to 40Hz or 60Hz up to 80Hz to let the subwoofer handle the lower end and any crossover set >80Hz leave alone.

dingleberries 03-14-2016 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdsmoothie (Post 42396385)
1. Many owners find the bass to be a little weak after running Audyssey, which simply requires boosting the subwoofer level about 3-5db to suit one's preference.
2. Speaker crossovers vary from 10db to 50db depending on where the crossover is situated. The general recommendation after running Audyssey is to raise any crossover set to 40Hz or 60Hz up to 80Hz to let the subwoofer handle the lower end and any crossover set >80Hz leave alone.

I guess, I find it counter productive to run Audyssey, then raise the subwoofer 3- 5db. During setup, I'm allowing the software to complete it's computations and measurements to determine the best sound quality. Of course, "the best sound quality" is subjective from person to person.

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll try the changes tomorrow. One last push to keep the X2200.

jdsmoothie 03-15-2016 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dingleberries (Post 42398585)
I guess, I find it counter productive to run Audyssey, then raise the subwoofer 3- 5db. During setup, I'm allowing the software to complete it's computations and measurements to determine the best sound quality. Of course, "the best sound quality" is subjective from person to person.

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll try the changes tomorrow. One last push to keep the X2200.


The Audyssey process simply provides for the same volume level for each speaker/sub at the main listening position. Most owners prefer a louder boom boom which is easily accomplished as previously discussed.

royalj7 03-15-2016 07:32 AM

I also looked at these two receivers also, and posted a short comparison of them in the forums. Ultimately went with the X2200 and am happy with the choice. However, with the current price of the Onkyo it would be hard to pass up now if I had to do it over again.

--Jamie

gilbreen 03-31-2016 03:41 PM

I am glad I came across this thread. I am looking to upgrade from an Onkyo TX-SR609 that has been a solid performer since I bought it about 5 years ago. I was looking at both models today at Fry's. The Denon is on sale for $398 and the Onkyo is $425. I have typically used Onkyo receivers, starting with a TX-SR800 over 10 years ago. The Fry's rep felt the Onkyo was a better receiver but really couldn't tell me why other than stating that the Onkyo was more powerful. I don't think the power output will make that much of a difference as was previously stated in the thread. The sale lasts for a couple of more days. Unfortunately, I don't have the ability time-wise to do an extended test with both units.

With price basically the same for both units, from what I have read, the Denon seems to be a strong candidate at this point.

The receiver is in our media room with moderate use (10-20 hours/week) only for movies and TV - no music. I use an ATV4, Tivo Mini, Roku 3, and a Blu-Ray player all via HDMI feeding a ViewSonic Pro8200.

It appears that the big difference is Audyssey on the Denon.

Any other items to consider between the two models?

kazinvan 04-29-2016 11:02 PM

I have heard several people mention smaller punch of the Denon bass, both review sites and posts in the forums. Since the sub has it's own amp, can't you just turn up the volume on the sub? I'm assuming that the signal the Denon is sending the sub is fine, just not high enough. So if that is the only real flaw, then turn up the sub and be done with it. Am I missing something?

My X2200 is getting shipped next week, so just curious.

jdsmoothie 04-30-2016 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazinvan (Post 43671706)
I have heard several people mention smaller punch of the Denon bass, both review sites and posts in the forums. Since the sub has it's own amp, can't you just turn up the volume on the sub? I'm assuming that the signal the Denon is sending the sub is fine, just not high enough. So if that is the only real flaw, then turn up the sub and be done with it. Am I missing something?

My X2200 is getting shipped next week, so just curious.

Nope .. not missing anything. Most owners who have AVRs that use Audyssey generally prefer to bump up the sub volume +5db (or whatever you prefer) after Audyssey has completed. :)

suji1 05-05-2016 07:39 PM

So i got JBL nightlife surround sound system.

I need an amp, my 3 options are:
Onkyo nr-tx646 540$ +60$ canadian 4 yearsbestbuy geeksquad waranty

Denon x2200 or s910w 540$ canadian Manufacture Waranty

Im only going to watch movies and tv.not music.

I read many reviews online where Denon lacks in the BASS department which is huge for me but the sound clarity is awesome and the video upscaling is a huge difference.

Onkyo I read reliability issues (why the 4 year waranty from.best buy would be peace of mind). But The Bass is awesome on this one from what I read and sound but cheap interface.

The bass on the denon is low after the Audessy calibration but why cant you raise the bass since it has its own amp? To bring it to the same level as Onkyo?.

which would be recommebded and yes im a newbie.

diceman1000 05-05-2016 09:42 PM

Just got my X2200W today, haven't had a chance to hook it up yet. I'm coming from a Harman Kardon AVR-1700 and am hoping the Denon has the same level of sound quality as the HK.

Sent from my LGUS990 using Tapatalk

ddvette9 05-06-2016 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diceman1000 (Post 43822386)
Just got my X2200W today, haven't had a chance to hook it up yet. I'm coming from a Harman Kardon AVR-1700 and am hoping the Denon has the same level of sound quality as the HK.

Sent from my LGUS990 using Tapatalk

Im very curious to hear your thoughts.....

suji1 05-06-2016 07:12 AM

How is the Denon s910w the lower version of x2200? When the sw910 is a 630watt and x2200 is 500watt and x2200 is 100$ cheaper

ddvette9 05-06-2016 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suji1 (Post 43827354)
How is the Denon s910w the lower version of x2200? When the sw910 is a 630watt and x2200 is 500watt and x2200 is 100$ cheaper

It has the lower version of Audyssey as well as some missing features that the X series has. And the X series has another year of warranty.

suji1 05-06-2016 08:52 AM

So the extra 130watts doesnt make a difference? 910w has 630 vs the500 for x2200 and 910w is more expensive. For the less punchier bass does turning up the bass knob on the sub solve this problem?

vipergts2207 05-06-2016 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suji1 (Post 43829594)
So the extra 130watts doesnt make a difference? 910w has 630 vs the500 for x2200 and 910w is more expensive. For the less punchier bass does turning up the bass knob on the sub solve this problem?

Not sure where you're getting your numbers from, but both the S910 and X2200 are rated 95 watts. The X2200 has been on sale for maybe 2 weeks or so to clear out stock for the 2016 model. Previously it was $220 more than the S910. Why none of the other 2015 models are on sale yet I have no idea. I bought an S910 last month, but then returned it for an X2200, when it went on sale.

ddvette9 05-06-2016 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vipergts2207 (Post 43845394)
Not sure where you're getting your numbers from, but both the S910 and X2200 are rated 95 watts. The X2200 has been on sale for maybe 2 weeks or so to clear out stock for the 2016 model. Previously it was $220 more than the S910. Why none of the other 2015 models are on sale yet I have no idea. I bought an S910 last month, but then returned it for an X2200, when it went on sale.

How do you like your 2200?

vipergts2207 05-06-2016 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddvette9 (Post 43845794)
How do you like your 2200?

Definitely a great purchase. This is my first AVR though so I can only compare it to using TV speakers, which is a basically a useless comparison. There's no features I feel like I'm missing out on though. I feel like it's a steal right now for $500.

suji1 05-06-2016 09:57 PM

Damn that means Im getting a better deal then you 540 canadian! Lol

suji1 05-06-2016 09:58 PM

Whats a better deal? 600$ denon x2200 or Onkyo tx nr646 600$ but with best buy 4 year waranty where I dont need to deal with Manufacture

suji1 05-10-2016 12:30 PM

Hello?

diceman1000 05-23-2016 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddvette9 (Post 43825586)
Im very curious to hear your thoughts.....

Absolutely loving it. Much clearer sounding than the HK was as well as more user friendly.

Sent from my LGUS990 using Tapatalk


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