Receiver predicament. Need advice... - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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My Marantz receiver will be here within the next couple of days. I will report back and let you know how the receiver/speaker combo pairs. I did notice a significant difference in sound when demoing in best buy. The Marantz sounded very balanced and natural with the B&W speakers they demoed with while the Yamaha he demoed produces a sound as bright as I'm hearing with my Klipsch's. I would've never figured receivers could produce such drastic differences in sound quality. I figured power was power and the speakers had 100% say in what you hear. I was certainly wrong.

I've read other threads where people stated that Marantz and Klipsch pair well. I've heard the warm sound of the Marantz receiver balances the Klipsch speakers very well. The proof will be in the pudding. I will let you know shortly. I will say, although Onkyo receivers may produce a bright sound not pairing well with my Klipsch speakers, they sure are reliable. I've owned three, one a stereo receiver from the early 90's, and never had one fail on me. After spending around 2,500 on speakers I would really hate to replace them. I hope the new receiver resolves my issue. Klipsch reviews are so contrasting. People either swear by them or completely trash them. I figured if they're good enough for movie theatres then they're good enough for my home. I did demo them in the store prior to buying them. The sales rep was playing an audio CD and it was crystal clear and sounded rather neutral and not bright at all. But... Different receiver! Very curious to see how Marantz pairs. Do not want to spend thousands of dollars on new speakers.
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post #32 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 08:58 AM
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I was under the impression that Audyssey made adjustments that are not available to the user to manually adjusted. At least I believe that was true to early Audyssey EQ modes, as in what is in my Marantz SR5003. And yes running the room/speaker calibration does wonders for your listening pleasure. I have only ever adjusted minor settings to balance out the sound.
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post #33 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I think I will go back to the audio store today where I bought the Klipsch's. I want to see what receiver the sales rep used. The guy definitely knew his stuff. I'll ask him if I made a good decision with the Marantz (although I will know myself when it arrives) or if he prefers a different receiver that pairs best with them.
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post #34 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 09:36 AM
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2 cents

I have been messing with my setup for years... there is way more to just the setup of everything than meets the eye... so, a few thoughts for you.
Got an android phone? Install SPL Meter, it has a frequency graph which I find quite helpful, if your gear is bright, it will show (to prove it to yourself use it one few different systems to see the comparative results)
Your center channel IS reflecting off of your cabinet, messing with center channel clarity.
I have an Integra DTR 80.1 and Bowers Wilkins 603 s3 mains, I have removed as much setup as possible from the amp, the only eq the amp does is @ 60 hz to counter a room harmonic, try to diminish the speaker distance setting as much as possible, confirm by listening. Just get as much modern voodoo as you can out of the way. Hear it as straight as you can make and then re-evaluate your tweaks to the setup.
Good luck.
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post #35 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 09:44 AM
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Elite been good for me

I have used my Pioneer Elite alone to run Magneplanar 3.6's as my fronts and it was sufficient.
I have since added a Class D 400 WPC (at 4 ohm) to run them and it is much better.
I have been happy with the ease and simplicity of using the Pioneer as the sole control unit and to power my current rears, which are a set of Hartley Bookshelves (circa 1979), and also the center, a Maggie CC3.

Just remember, you will spend exponentially to get only small percentages of improvement once you get to a "happy place". And then you have to decide how much you want your money tied up into more stuff that prompts you to just KEEP sitting there--

For the long story--read on--

I was very heavily into trying to attain perfection in both home audio and home theater in the same room.
I am sure many folks here are well beyond my experiences. But here are my two-cents--

I am a Magneplanar guy, have been since 1979.
In my book, the sense of "being there" and dimension from speakers is just as paramount as tonal reproduction.

I've been down the 225 tube-watts per channel road, then added a class D 800 watt per to Bi-amp the front 3.6 (each with a 6' ribbon tweeter).
I had a tube Cary SLP-05 ? pre-amp for two channel --
I had 1.6's as rears in my 5.1 system. Those were powered by a separate 140 watt Rotel SS stereo power amp.
The center was (is) a Maggie CC3. that was powered by my AVR--an Integra 9.1.
Only the center was powered by the AVR.

I have a self powered- lower end Klipsch 12-D sub. (I think it's a 12, might be a 10, I'm not to worried about the subsonic stuff.)
It was incredible. I fell in love with playing 5.1 surround SACDs --Then they went away--

aside--One really should hear both Pink Floyds "Dark Side of the Moon" in the 5.1 mode just for the sheer amusement park like experience.
And also Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms" (5.1) for an awesome recording and the musical experience!--

Trouble was, my system sounded better to me than most live concerts and definitely better than any movie theaters.
Yes, live music IS better, but that may not necessarily mean the sound quality is--but I digress--

Point of all that story is-- I sold off the tubes and the 1.6's and now the Rotel powers the basement system. (MMG's down there)

I first tried powering the 3.6's with just the Integra--It sounded adequate, you just had to crank it to get to a level that was close enough (80%) of the quality of the "big system".
So I sold the Class D too.
After a few weeks without the Class D, it killed the Integra.
I was very impressed with the Class D amps I had, so I went after the Pioneer Elite that was rated for the 4 ohm speaker load the giant 3.6's require.
It worked adequately, but I wasn't quite at my 80% requirement, so I bought another Class D for the fronts. I'm there. But really that last 20% (just to get where I was) cost a lot of money and is a pain in the butt to manage it all just to watch a movie or listen to some tunes--.
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post #36 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by JFriden View Post
... My speakers are very efficient and at 30 watts I'm getting 105 decibels from my fronts and 108 from the center. Well, according to paper. My SPL meter read 115 at my usual listening volume
Are you reading 115 dB at your normal listening position? If so that's ear-damaging loud for any period of time. This site gives a 30-second safe exposure at 115 dB.

In any case, it's unlikely you're getting a flat response at that volume level--low bass takes a lot more wattage to hit those levels than higher frequencies. A good subwoofer will automatically drop low bass to meet higher volume levels to stay within the amp's power profile. I don't know if receivers do this too. This could be a cause of brighter sound. Does it sound bright at lower listening levels, say 85 dB? Play some test tones at 20/30/50/100/200 Hz and see how close they are at the 115 dB listening level.
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post #37 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 10:05 AM
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Which receiver were the Klipsch reference speakers connected to upon your listening before purchase? What were the dimensions and qualities of the environment that you listened in?

I also purchased Klipsch over five years ago, very hard not judging anything else as inferior. And they aren't even reference speakers!

It it is your goal, it is possible to duplicate the previous experience to great degree. Feasibility may be another matter. It boils down to the physics of the receiver, the room, what's in it, and what's on the walls, basically anything that can interact with the generation and interaction of the sound. In fact, you may be able to improve or tailor listening experiences to your liking with most any combination, more or less. Or at least come to some acceptable compromise.

Another thought: If the reference speakers are producing bright sound, then the author of what you may be listening to, intends for the most part, just that.
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post #38 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by JFriden View Post
I have Klipsch Reference Pemiere front, center, and surrounds. I mainly got them for Home Theatre use but I do listen to a lot of music. I figured if Klipsch is good enough for commercial theatres then it's good enough for my home. I went to an audio store, did a demo, and they sounded crystal clear. I knew those were the speakers I wanted. I know Klipsch are known to be bright. I have them connected to an Onkyo receiver. The speakers are already broken in. Hundreds of hours of listening time so far and receiver is perfectly calibrated with speaker size, distance, crossover, level, tone. These speakers sounds very bright and not natural like I heard in the audio store. Even Klipsch described these speakers as having the most natural sound possible and not sounding as bright as their previous lines. The professional reviews on these speakers were all very positive.

Upon research, I found that Onkyo receivers produce a very bright sound. I have seen other threads where people had the same issues with Onkyo/Klipsch pairings. Most of the comments said that these two are a horrible combination. If I turn the treble all the way down it does sound better but I would prefer to these speakers paired with a receiver that produces a warmer sound without having to mess with the tone too much. Most forums I read stated that Marantz produces the best receivers on the market and produce a very warm sound and don't sound bright like Onkyos. Prior to dropping the money (because I'm not replacing my speakers which I just spent thousands on) do you feel like switching receivers from Onkyo to Marantz would make a noticeable difference in sound quality? I'm not sure which receiver the audio salesman was using but I'm sure in a high end audio store it was probably a 1,500+ receiver with features I will never use and wattage I don't need. Any advice would be welcome. Thanks. There is actually another issue I'd like to address but this post is too long already. I'll write it in another one.
What model Onk? What model Klipsch Reference Series. Are you using Audessey?

My experience is I am using Klipsch Synergy 3 system, with a Onkyo 809 and it sounds like heaven. So talk of a too bright Onkyo, maybe, but maybe also it has to do with the model of Onk. I'm not sure what other changes, other than eliminating Audessey, they've done in the new generation. But my Onk has beautiful balance with my Klipsch speakers.

Al lot of this could be room acoustics too. I think I have a fairly nuetral room. 14'X26' with cathedral ceiling and it sounds open, spatial, beautiful sound stage and the Onk just has it so much better than the VSX-1015 Pioneer it replaced, which was no slouch itself.

Tell us more. You've left a LOT of detail out. Your Klipsch should sound beautiful, nuetral, tight/punchy and with good low end as well. Not harsh at all, but possible bright compared to some.
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post #39 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Are you reading 115 dB at your normal listening position? If so that's ear-damaging loud for any period of time. This site gives a 30-second safe exposure at 115 dB.

In any case, it's unlikely you're getting a flat response at that volume level--low bass takes a lot more wattage to hit those levels than higher frequencies. A good subwoofer will automatically drop low bass to meet higher volume levels to stay within the amp's power profile. I don't know if receivers do this too. This could be a cause of brighter sound. Does it sound bright at lower listening levels, say 85 dB? Play some test tones at 20/30/50/100/200 Hz and see how close they are at the 115 dB listening level.
It was 115db where the speaker was located. Around 100 at listening position.
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post #40 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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I have been messing with my setup for years... there is way more to just the setup of everything than meets the eye... so, a few thoughts for you.
Got an android phone? Install SPL Meter, it has a frequency graph which I find quite helpful, if your gear is bright, it will show (to prove it to yourself use it one few different systems to see the comparative results)
Your center channel IS reflecting off of your cabinet, messing with center channel clarity.
I have an Integra DTR 80.1 and Bowers Wilkins 603 s3 mains, I have removed as much setup as possible from the amp, the only eq the amp does is @ 60 hz to counter a room harmonic, try to diminish the speaker distance setting as much as possible, confirm by listening. Just get as much modern voodoo as you can out of the way. Hear it as straight as you can make and then re-evaluate your tweaks to the setup.
Good luck.
I moved my center channel speaker to the front of the entertainment center and redid AccuEQ and no difference. The guy demoing those in the store had them on a similar entertainment system at the back just below the projector like I have and it was still crystal clear. Going back there now to see which receiver he had them connected to.
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post #41 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 10:27 AM
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Find a classic retro stereo amp!

Sit back and enjoy where we all started, and i have gone back there.
Stereo, deep true tone which fills the empty gap in todays multi channel av systems.
I will never go forward and will stick with the beautiful true tone from a dd stereo cda, no compression!
Sound is life and sometimes we loose the plot, we only have 2 ears.
I am chilling to phil collins on a reworked retro aiwa nsx s90.
Would not change foe any multi channel besides an ax540 with one pair of speakers!
Colin44ct357 cape town sa.
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post #42 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Are you reading 115 dB at your normal listening position? If so that's ear-damaging loud for any period of time. This site gives a 30-second safe exposure at 115 dB.

In any case, it's unlikely you're getting a flat response at that volume level--low bass takes a lot more wattage to hit those levels than higher frequencies. A good subwoofer will automatically drop low bass to meet higher volume levels to stay within the amp's power profile. I don't know if receivers do this too. This could be a cause of brighter sound. Does it sound bright at lower listening levels, say 85 dB? Play some test tones at 20/30/50/100/200 Hz and see how close they are at the 115 dB listening level.
My crossover is set to 80hz so all my low frequencies are going to my sub. My Klipsch subs have their own 450 watt amplifiers built it. I will try to do some test tones later and see if my speakers are balanced. I really think a better receiver like Marantz with Audyssey where I can perform a half dozen measurements as opposed to AccuEQ's one will yield much better sound from my speakers. Very curious to hear the Marantz once it arrives.
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post #43 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Sit back and enjoy where we all started, and i have gone back there.
Stereo, deep true tone which fills the empty gap in todays multi channel av systems.
I will never go forward and will stick with the beautiful true tone from a dd stereo cda, no compression!
Sound is life and sometimes we loose the plot, we only have 2 ears.
I am chilling to phil collins on a reworked retro aiwa nsx s90.
Would not change foe any multi channel besides an ax540 with one pair of speakers!
Colin44ct357 cape town sa.
I mentioned this to the sales rep when I bought my Klipsch Reference Premieres. I told him that I remembered stereo receivers with two channel speakers sounding amazing. I had an Onkyo (and even a Sony which sounded awesome back then) stereo receiver with DCM loudspeakers. The sound played so loud and so clear. Heart thumping bass, perfect mids, crystal clear highs. I even had a 12" Technics subwoofer. Best subwoofer I've ever owned in my life. My brother would put it in his trunk and connect it to his car audio amp. All connections were analog also. Composite cables. No HDMI. The rep in the store told me it was just nostalgia and that if I listened to my 90's equipment today with the better ear I have now that it would not sound the same. I'm not so sure.
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post #44 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 10:55 AM
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I'm unwilling to dismiss the influence of this room on the sound you're hearing.

I own both the Marantz 1504 in my family room and a Pioneer Elite SC71 in my theater room. I've owned Onkyo in recent years. All of them drive Infinity (Primus/family; Interlude/theater) speakers which admittedly have very different characteristics from Klipsch. But these receivers are all relatively benign regarding frequency emphasis and all are easily modified with tone controls. I prefer the Pioneer, but they are also paired with Interludes which are smooth and detailed. The Primus are laid back in comparison and I equalize upwards in the higher frequencies to get the detail I like.

Your room is worlds different from a typical retail showroom where you selected the speakers. All those showroom speakers, staggered along the walls, with mostly acoustically transparent (false) ceilings and covered concrete floors will absorb more high frequency energy than your room and these same features reinforce bass energy. You, on the other hand, have a very acoustically hard room paired with speakers that will have more energy in the middle and lower treble than others. I'd bet that most of what you hear is reflected sound at modest to high volumes. At low volumes it becomes harder to predict. Your speakers get almost NO bass reinforcement because of their locations (away from walls/floor) and the sub is in fairly low bass location. It's nothing that can't be addressed. A heavily furnished room, with thick carpet padding and window curtains would go a long way towards taking the edge off. I'd probably move the sub into a corner. Other issues related to bass might be addressed with the tone controls.

If you are really listening at 115db I'd also predict you have significant room resonances that are distorting your perception of the sound balance. Most people would quickly tire at these levels and lower the volume. You're not doing so because you are struggling to get a satisfactory sound balance. It's not good for your ear health.

Last edited by ritech; 01-18-2016 at 10:58 AM. Reason: clarity
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post #45 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm unwilling to dismiss the influence of this room on the sound you're hearing.

I own both the Marantz 1504 in my family room and a Pioneer Elite SC71 in my theater room. I've owned Onkyo in recent years. All of them drive Infinity (Primus/family; Interlude/theater) speakers which admittedly have very different characteristics from Klipsch. But these receivers are all relatively benign regarding frequency emphasis and all are easily modified with tone controls. I prefer the Pioneer, but they are also paired with Interludes which are smooth and detailed. The Primus are laid back in comparison and I equalize upwards in the higher frequencies to get the detail I like.

Your room is worlds different from a typical retail showroom where you selected the speakers. All those showroom speakers, staggered along the walls, with mostly acoustically transparent (false) ceilings and covered concrete floors will absorb more high frequency energy than your room and these same features reinforce bass energy. You, on the other hand, have a very acoustically hard room paired with speakers that will have more energy in the middle and lower treble than others. I'd bet that most of what you hear is reflected sound at modest to high volumes. At low volumes it becomes harder to predict. Your speakers get almost NO bass reinforcement because of their locations (away from walls/floor) and the sub is in fairly low bass location. It's nothing that can't be addressed. A heavily furnished room, with thick carpet padding and window curtains would go a long way towards taking the edge off. I'd probably move the sub into a corner. Other issues related to bass might be addressed with the tone controls.

If you are really listening at 115db I'd also predict you have significant room resonances that are distorting your perception of the sound balance. Most people would quickly tire at these levels and lower the volume. You're not doing so because you are struggling to get a satisfactory sound balance. It's not good for your ear health.
I know I could use curtains. But my house is up for sale and I should be moving soon. Definitely in the new home. I have my HT setup according to THX recommendations, including speaker placement, angle, viewing position relative to the screen, sub crossover at 80hz, etc, etc... I do have carpet and not hard floors so that is a plus. I have no problems with my sub. Bass sounds deep, fills the room, and is crisp. I have a second identical sub on the way. So bass is not an issue. The only issue is the brightness on the highs. I will do a tone test later like someone recommended and see if my speakers are balanced.
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post #46 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 11:20 AM
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The differences in sound between any modern receiver is going to be VERY subtle. Don't listen to me, go back to the dealer you got the speakers and ask for a weekend demo of the receiver of your choice, a Marantz would be a good one, any reputable dealer will work with you. I'm sure you'll find it will sound just the same as your current choice.
You have two choices if you can't satifiy using the available tone eq or different settings/adjustments.
The inexpensive way is taming the room sound with funishings, rugs, drapes, etc.
The other is different speakers. Deal with someone who will offer you extended trial times.
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post #47 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 11:23 AM
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Speaker placement

There is a lot of technical detail in this thread and frankly, I'm not too clued up on the topic. I do however own a Marantz and make use of Klipsch for my rear surround speakers. (Old UBL's in the front is not ready for replacement yet.)

When I switched from Onkyo to Marantz everything was fine, except for the Pink Floyd : "The Wall" dvd. This now only plays at approximately 20% of the output it produced with the Onkyo, even though my Pioneer dvd player is unchanged. Other dvd's does not show this problem.

By the way, I absolutely love the Klipsch rear mounted speakers.

I did however see in the photo that the centre speaker is situated very close to the back wall and this would almost certainly affect the sound quality as well, you should move this a bit further from the wall.

Regards - Werner
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post #48 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 11:26 AM
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I think at the level you stated as your normal listening volume (115) is far too loud with horns (think loud speaker that your Principal in high school had to yell at the students). No amount of EQ will have them sounding warm at that decibel unless you have a giant acoustically treated room. If your going experiment a new receiver make sure they have a good return policy just incase. I have Klipsch R26F's, R25C and R15M's as surrounds and I play them at around 90 decibels max when gaming or watching movies. At first my speakers were a bit on the bright side but they settled in pretty darn well. I also acoustically treated my room for 1st reflection points which helped give more definition and balance. I love the Klipsch sound but at plus 100 decibels it will be harsher on the ears than a non horn tweeter. Just for reference I'm using a Sony 750 7.2 145w X7 @ 6ohms AVR. Plenty of power for my small 10x13x8 room. As far as receivers sounding different (digital AVR's) I think receivers that sound "different" is due to being EQ'd differently or the room acoustics, I don't think there is much difference at all so long as the audio is played at the receivers stated ability. Good luck and lower your volume! lol
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post #49 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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I must clarify. That 115db was directly in front of the speaker. At listening position my spl meter fluctuated between 95-101db. At 115 at listening position I would be deaf.
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post #50 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I stand very corrected. I just measured my normal listening level with an SPL meter. It was 105db at the speaker and approx. 80 at listening position. I played Earth, Wind, & Fire and they have a very big sound. I believe this is exactly where you want the volume for movies and music. I see no reason why this level would cause my speakers to sound so bright. I just turned the sound down fairly low and it is still bright so I know it's not the volume. The S's sound hissy and T's and F's sound so sharp. I have to turn the treble all the way down for a somewhat balanced sound. And it's not because of where my center channel is located because I'm listening to only my fronts on stereo mode. Still very bright. Again, I moved my center channel speaker to the front of my entertainment center so that no sound could bounce directly off the wood, redid AccuEQ, and I noticed no difference. Again, there is no distortion to my center speaker. Dialog is very clear, just way to bright and sharp. Movies, music, whatever. I will wait for the Marantz receiver and use Audyssey and see how that fairs compared to my Onkyo with AccuEQ. If it doesn't fix my problem then I know Klipsch speakers are certainly not for me. This is not good as that will leave me with another huge investment. These things sounded so natural, balanced, and clear in the audio store. Really messing with my head right now. Hoping the Marantz helps. The audio store was closed today so I couldn't find out what receiver the guy had the Klipsch's connected to.
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post #51 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 02:59 PM
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I think you're comparing apples to oranges. You said some maker's gear is good enough for a pro venue and then seem to be expecting similar performance from that maker's commercial audio line of products. Ain't happnin'.
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post #52 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jim Pearce 2 View Post
I think you're comparing apples to oranges. You said some maker's gear is good enough for a pro venue and then seem to be expecting similar performance from that maker's commercial audio line of products. Ain't happnin'.
I'm well aware of that but I figured if their pro lineup is top tier than their commercial products would be held to the same standard. Plus my lineup of Klipsch's received wonderful reviews from pro reviewers and I even heard them for myself at the audio store. My Onkyo has AccuEQ which has horrible feedback from pretty much every source I've seen and it only allows you to measure one time. Marantz which builds better receivers to begin with, comes with Audyssey which is supposedly far superior to AccuEQ and the Audyssey that comes with the unit I purchased will allow me to measure in six different areas. It may not make a night and day difference, and probably won't, but at minimum it shouldn't sound worse. At best, my problem is solved. If not, then I know that I need to purchase a different brand of speakers. Lesson learned. Take more time to research and demo something before buying it. I'm sure we've all been there.
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post #53 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 03:49 PM
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Klipsch & 'bright' - what are your EQ capabilities?

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Originally Posted by JFriden View Post
I have Klipsch Reference Pemiere front, center, and surrounds. I mainly got them for Home Theatre use but I do listen to a lot of music. I figured if Klipsch is good enough for commercial theatres then it's good enough for my home. I went to an audio store, did a demo, and they sounded crystal clear. I knew those were the speakers I wanted. I know Klipsch are known to be bright. I have them connected to an Onkyo receiver. The speakers are already broken in. Hundreds of hours of listening time so far and receiver is perfectly calibrated with speaker size, distance, crossover, level, tone. These speakers sounds very bright and not natural like I heard in the audio store. Even Klipsch described these speakers as having the most natural sound possible and not sounding as bright as their previous lines. The professional reviews on these speakers were all very positive.

Upon research, I found that Onkyo receivers produce a very bright sound. I have seen other threads where people had the same issues with Onkyo/Klipsch pairings. Most of the comments said that these two are a horrible combination. If I turn the treble all the way down it does sound better but I would prefer to these speakers paired with a receiver that produces a warmer sound without having to mess with the tone too much. Most forums I read stated that Marantz produces the best receivers on the market and produce a very warm sound and don't sound bright like Onkyos. Prior to dropping the money (because I'm not replacing my speakers which I just spent thousands on) do you feel like switching receivers from Onkyo to Marantz would make a noticeable difference in sound quality? I'm not sure which receiver the audio salesman was using but I'm sure in a high end audio store it was probably a 1,500+ receiver with features I will never use and wattage I don't need. Any advice would be welcome. Thanks. There is actually another issue I'd like to address but this post is too long already. I'll write it in another one.

Great brand to go with and yes, many have opinions of 'brightness'. I am exposed in the professional world as an audio engineer so once horn loaded setups are understood you can probably understand your investment a little better.
- Horns are super efficient due to the design enabling quickly elevated sound like when shouting and using your hands to amplify it. . . When you heard them in store, how close were you to them? And was it in an open store or closed room? If open, there's no reflections - so the horn energy dissipates and the main mid/bass driver reigns
- Try not toeing them in to the center position. Just try in parallel. The horn mouthpiece has dispersion angles built in. If you don't like it, toe them back in.
- If you have EQ control, try to aim for an X-curve (small or large) Check here: http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_...es-6-2002.html
Reason being is the woodiness of vocals is your 300-6/800hz, mid at 1-2khz and definition 4k and above or so and the body is 200-300hz.
Utilising an X-Curve should generally reflect room anomalies and matches theatre studio recording standards from what I've read and learnt... And it enhances all the mid range of vocals, instruments, everything.

If none of this proves helpful, review your seating position. With room reflections and diffractions your best listening position is in the first or last third of the room, never the middle.

If you don't have EQ control, grab your Bass and treble masters and wind them down; bass -2/3dB and treble up to 5/6db down. Then just push your volume up and you should hear more mids come through. You'll still have your bass & treble but what you're doing is trying to push the mids, the 'wood' sounds forward a little more.
This is essentially do the same thing as creating an X-curve but only from an output point of view, not actually what your room itself is doing.

Hope something helps there!

-- 133" AT 2.35:1 Screen -- JVC X500 -- Oppo UDP-205 -- Cambridge 650R -- QSC DCM 10-D -- 2x Emotiva XPA-5 -- Krix Theatrix (L,C,R), Krix Megaphonix surrounds -- 4x Velodyne DD18 --
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post #54 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 04:45 PM
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Unless I missed it, there's a lot of posts and replies but no mention of what model Onkyo receiver is in question.....
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post #55 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by MCharlie View Post
With my hearing loss, I would love to have excessive highs in my system. I too run an Onkyo (TX-NR626) and Klipsch speakers in a 7.1 setup. The theater room is 30 by 17 with a 12 foot high side sloping ceiling. I have great volume but had to set the levels manually as Audyssey has always failed on one speaker. Never found the reason for it..switching wires did not correct it nor did switching speakers, Even switched receivers, same results. So the p/u mic stays in the drawer.

Anywho....I have considered a different receiver, even though I like the Onkyo.

I will follow this thread closely as it hit close to home, but on the opposite side of the listening spectrum, but I suspect some solutions to *my* issues will be solved by this one!

MC
which speakers do you use? i know some klipsch speakers that are VERY bright.

there are some solutions that will allow you to get a high frequency response like you want but they are not cheap. an emotiva fusion 8100 would probably be the cheapest way i know of to get there.

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post #56 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by JFriden View Post
I stand very corrected. I just measured my normal listening level with an SPL meter. It was 105db at the speaker and approx. 80 at listening position. I played Earth, Wind, & Fire and they have a very big sound. I believe this is exactly where you want the volume for movies and music. I see no reason why this level would cause my speakers to sound so bright. I just turned the sound down fairly low and it is still bright so I know it's not the volume. The S's sound hissy and T's and F's sound so sharp. I have to turn the treble all the way down for a somewhat balanced sound. And it's not because of where my center channel is located because I'm listening to only my fronts on stereo mode. Still very bright. Again, I moved my center channel speaker to the front of my entertainment center so that no sound could bounce directly off the wood, redid AccuEQ, and I noticed no difference. Again, there is no distortion to my center speaker. Dialog is very clear, just way to bright and sharp. Movies, music, whatever. I will wait for the Marantz receiver and use Audyssey and see how that fairs compared to my Onkyo with AccuEQ. If it doesn't fix my problem then I know Klipsch speakers are certainly not for me. This is not good as that will leave me with another huge investment. These things sounded so natural, balanced, and clear in the audio store. Really messing with my head right now. Hoping the Marantz helps. The audio store was closed today so I couldn't find out what receiver the guy had the Klipsch's connected to.
the audio store is not a good place to listen to speakers imo. you also dont know what kind of correction they have going on in the store receiver.

there are many well intentioned posts in the thread, and the room can affect the sound, but I promise you thats not the case here. I have three different sets of klipsch towers in my living room right now, and my room is well damped and the older klipsches are not bright, while the kg5.2 is PAINFULLY articulate( a friendly term for bright). and the kg5.2 is not even as bright as some of the newer klispches

audyssey will fix your problem. if it doesnt, you need new speakers.

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Thomas Drugeon for Rephase
John Mulcahy for room eq wizard
Denis Sbragion for DRC room correction
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post #57 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
the audio store is not a good place to listen to speakers imo. you also dont know what kind of correction they have going on in the store receiver.

there are many well intentioned posts in the thread, and the room can affect the sound, but I promise you thats not the case here. I have three different sets of klipsch towers in my living room right now, and my room is well damped and the older klipsches are not bright, while the kg5.2 is PAINFULLY articulate( a friendly term for bright). and the kg5.2 is not even as bright as some of the newer klispches

audyssey will fix your problem. if it doesnt, you need new speakers.
Thanks. I think it will help also. My receiver is supposed to arrive Thursday. I will post my results after hook up and calibration. I mentioned earlier but for everyone asking my current Onkyo receiver is the TX-NR535 and my Klipsch speakers are rp-250c center, rp-150m fronts and surround, r-110sw subwoofer. I have had no problem with the sub. The bass is deep, wide, and crisp. I love it. Just ordered a second one which should arrive soon. My family room opens up to the rest of the house and I have cathedral ceiling so I think the two subs will fill my listening field a bit better. I have also heard that two subs produces a much better bass response as compared to one, especially with stereo music. If my surround speakers weren't so piercing I would be happy.
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post #58 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 06:17 PM
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also, if you dont have it, i would invest in a usb measurement mic and download room eq wizard(dont forget to donate if you like it)

btw, i got rid of my surround speakers and dont miss them one bit. i found it to be very distracting "noise"

THANK YOU!!! for your selfless contribution to the audio world
Anders Torger for Brutefir
Thomas Drugeon for Rephase
John Mulcahy for room eq wizard
Denis Sbragion for DRC room correction
Juha Hartikainen for Winisd

Last edited by 1201; 01-18-2016 at 06:20 PM.
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post #59 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 06:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFriden View Post
Thanks. I think it will help also. My receiver is supposed to arrive Thursday. I will post my results after hook up and calibration. I mentioned earlier but for everyone asking my current Onkyo receiver is the TX-NR535 and my Klipsch speakers are rp-250c center, rp-150m fronts and surround, r-110sw subwoofer. I have had no problem with the sub. The bass is deep, wide, and crisp. I love it. Just ordered a second one which should arrive soon. My family room opens up to the rest of the house and I have cathedral ceiling so I think the two subs will fill my listening field a bit better. I have also heard that two subs produces a much better bass response as compared to one, especially with stereo music. If my surround speakers weren't so piercing I would be happy.
Advantage to multiple subs is smoother frequency response throughout the room, hopefully to alleviate any room modes at your listening position particularly. I don't know why that would particularly help 2ch music, though any more than other types of audio.

I think its silly to try and "match" brand names to each other, particularly to shape sound with just purchase of an avr; it is not going to be as effective as changing speakers or treating your room (let alone the various eq options an avr can offer). Good luck, tho. Personally I find this level of Klipsch to be fatiguing.
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post #60 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Sal1950 View Post
The differences in sound between any modern receiver is going to be VERY subtle. Don't listen to me, go back to the dealer you got the speakers and ask for a weekend demo of the receiver of your choice, a Marantz would be a good one, any reputable dealer will work with you. I'm sure you'll find it will sound just the same as your current choice.
You have two choices if you can't satifiy using the available tone eq or different settings/adjustments.
The inexpensive way is taming the room sound with funishings, rugs, drapes, etc.
The other is different speakers. Deal with someone who will offer you extended trial times.
I agree with this statement, The Marantz might help you but only because it has Audyssey not because it's a Marantz. I went thru 6 + receivers thinking the same thing. 4 Yamaha's, 1 NAD and finally a Marantz SR5008. Why did the Marantz SR5008 make my system sound so much better then the rest? Because it has Audyssey multEQ XT. Problem really was my room.
Why do i know this. Because it made my system sound like i changed out my whole speaker system. It made that much of a difference! I am now running the Marantz with a Def Tech/SVS system in a living room.
Another thing is one of my good friends now has my Yamaha RX-A820 receiver and has a complete Klipsch 5.1 system with horns and it to absolutely sounds awesome in his house. Not to harsh, not to bright, doesn't hurt your ears and he likes to listen to music loud as well. I know, i set the whole system up for him. they were my old speakers to. He has the perfect room for Klipsch. Small room, heavily carpeted and rugs! thick window blind coverings ( there never open) he likes it dark even in the day time. only one opening in the back of the room.
So the Yamaha and Klipsch are a great combo too, but they must be in the right room.

You should have at least bought a Marantz with Audyssey multEQ XT not the std multEQ system. You can buy last year Models or older models at excellent prices from places like Accessories4less or even Best buy clearance. I think i have seen the Marantz SR5008 or SR5009 for around $400.00. My brother just bought a Denon with Audyssey multEQ XT for $270.00 2 weeks ago from Accessories4less and it really help his system sound much better. He very Happy with it.

Another thing i learned while doing all this was what sounds good in the demo room at Best buy or your local Hi-Fi shop will sound completely different in your home. You can not get the same sound from two very different environments or from any of the receivers until you take it home and set it up in your room with your speakers. There is to many sound modes and settings on these Home theater receivers to compare them side by side at Best-buy Magnolia or what ever shop you go to. All these receivers will need the auto set up run in your room before you can actually say if you like it or not.

I'm no expert at this but i thought i would give you my 2 cents with what i went thru the last 4 years. Good luck!
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(Living Room) Sony XBR-65X900E 4K TV, Sony UBP-X800 4K BD player, Pioneer SC-LX502, Def Tech BP9020's, A90 atmos, CS-9040 C and Di 5.5R surrounds

(Garage) Sherwood RX-4105 Receiver, Samsung DVD/CD player, Klipsch 2.5 med oak speakers

Last edited by RKSKYDANCER; 01-18-2016 at 07:09 PM.
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