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post #61 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
the audio store is not a good place to listen to speakers imo. you also dont know what kind of correction they have going on in the store receiver.

there are many well intentioned posts in the thread, and the room can affect the sound, but I promise you thats not the case here. I have three different sets of klipsch towers in my living room right now, and my room is well damped and the older klipsches are not bright, while the kg5.2 is PAINFULLY articulate( a friendly term for bright). and the kg5.2 is not even as bright as some of the newer klispches

audyssey will fix your problem. if it doesnt, you need new speakers.
Careful with promises. I have a room with KG 5.2's and neither I nor anyone else has ever hinted at them being bright. The room has tile flooring and sheet rock walls (no damping). I have listened to Dynaudio's (considered neutral by most) to be much brighter and harsh than any KG series that I have owned.

If KG's were bright I would suspect the AVR to be a likely cause.
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post #62 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 07:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
Careful with promises. I have a room with KG 5.2's and neither I nor anyone else has ever hinted at them being bright. The room has tile flooring and sheet rock walls (no damping). I have listened to Dynaudio's (considered neutral by most) to be much brighter and harsh than any KG series that I have owned.

If KG's were bright I would suspect the AVR to be a likely cause.
I really hope the receiver is the case with me. I have read many posts with people had my same issue pairing Onkyo receivers with Klipsch speakers. I even got a reply here asking for feedback once I get my new receiver because he has the same issue with his Onkyo/Klipsch pairing. I have read many threads which stated Marantz pairs really well with Klipsch. Even several responses here said the same thing. I really hope I notice a difference with the Marantz receiver. Going to be a long wait until that delivery on Thursday. Very curious to hear the difference (if any). Fingers crossed. Don't let me down Klipsch! I really want to like you!
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post #63 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
Careful with promises. I have a room with KG 5.2's and neither I nor anyone else has ever hinted at them being bright. The room has tile flooring and sheet rock walls (no damping). I have listened to Dynaudio's (considered neutral by most) to be much brighter and harsh than any KG series that I have owned.

If KG's were bright I would suspect the AVR to be a likely cause.
i wouldnt be so sure if i hadnt owned so many different klipsch speakers. and i spend a lot of time graphing them up. audyssey et al , or any good eq for that matter will easily take care of his situation. some new klipsches are just too bright plain and simple.

can i ask your age? its a fact that as we age we lose the highs so you may be of the age where the highs of the 5.2s are just perfect for you, but they are bright and i even have the rew graphs to prove it.

also, are you running your speakers flat with no eq or is there some eq/room correction going on?

i wish more klipsch owners would use REW

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post #64 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 09:19 PM
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I am following this thread with a lot of interest because I too have Klipsch (FC-20) towers with a Yamaha RX-v675 and still not completely "satisfied". In addition, I have a Klipsch 12" sub and my rears are in ceiling 8" proficient C801 (0* angled units - http://www.proficientaudio.com/produ...eiling-speaker).

So, I have been reading the forums a lot and learning about tuning the amp, making changes to the room, speaker placement, etc...

I am still in the learning phase and haven't had much time to fiddle with my setup. I did initially start calibrating with the YPAO mic, but have made so many changes to the calibration that I should just start over again.

My biggest issue is that I cannot hear dialogue well and that I really have to crank it up to get the performance I want during a movie action scene (for example). I just bought a center (Klipsch RC25) so that should make a big difference.

Since this thread is really active now and talking about Klipsch, I would like to get people's opinion given my hardware setup and the room itself (pic attached). My living and dining room is basically one big room, with hardwood floors and vaulted ceilings and I am starting to think that my setup is too bright for this environment or perhaps is it just a matter of calibration?

Thanks!
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post #65 of 80 Old 01-18-2016, 11:21 PM
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Lessons learned

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Originally Posted by JFriden View Post
... If it doesn't fix my problem then I know Klipsch speakers are certainly not for me. This is not good as that will leave me with another huge investment. These things sounded so natural, balanced, and clear in the audio store. ...
Having one through this scenario several times since I started to get into quality stereo components in 1977, I finally learned a few lessons the hard way ($$$$$)

1) Audio equipment never sound the same in your home as it does in the showroom
2) Old school designs, like the (Kliprsch speakers) have old style sound and old style problems.
3) Modern amplifiers, preamps, AV receivers, etc. have distortion levels well below 1% (many are well below 0.01%) which are ridiculously low and cannot be heard by the human ear. They are flat within a tolerance level that is not discernible by human ears. Numerous tests by qualified engineers have proven this to be true.
4) Speakers typically have distortion of 10 to 20% at listening levels.

Obviously speakers are still the weakest link in the audio chain and are most likely to be anyone's problem (which I suspect to be yours).

I've been running Pioneer Elite AV receivers for some years now because they sound just as good as my old high end components (i.e. I can't heard a difference between any of them), their automatic equalization process is very simple to use and sounds excellent to me.

5) Auto equalization now operates in the digital domain so it does not mess up the audio quality like it did on the old days. In the old days the analog equalizers we used introduced a huge amount of phase shift at each frequency that it was affecting, so yes the levels were flat but the sound was muddy or dull because of al the phase shifting all over the place. Today, quality AV receivers do this al in the digital woman which does not affect phase at all which partly is why a modern moderately priced AV receiver can sound so good compared to the old expensive gear.

6) The only way to know if a gear will sound good in your home is to try it in your home. You must audition everything you want to buy all at once, together. Run the auto-equalization feature (yes your room is altering your sound, it happens to everyone) and play a very wide variety of material that you are familiar with and will be enjoying in the future. Try to get as long a demo as possible, you'll be surprised to hear that the system doe snot sound as good the second or third day, when all your adrenaline has run out. That is when you will experience the system with a truly critical ear.

7) Future proof your system as much as possible. You might not think that you want or need all those fact features today but you will tomorrow. My friend's homes are all fully equipped with my leftover gear that I abandoned when I made each upgrade.

8) Put most of your money into your speakers. You did this correctly but you just needed to have a much better audition period in your home to see if they actually work well for you.

9) Salespeople lie. They are out to make a buck and I hold most of them with the same level of contempt as I do for used car salespeople. They get commissions (look up SPIF) from the manufacturers to push certain gear at certain ties of the year, regardless of it being good for you or not. Their demo rooms are set up much differently from your home and they put a lot of effort into making things sound much better in there than you can ever get in your home. This session cost me more than one small fortune, The only thing that you can trust are your ears in your own home.

10) Its worth putting the effort in to get your system to sound right for you, its a judge call and you are the sole judge that matters.
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post #66 of 80 Old 01-19-2016, 03:42 AM
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I had the same issue

Many years ago I had a set of Klipsch Quintets for surround sound. After 20 to 30 minutes of listening to music I found them very fatiguing to the ears.

I swapped out the front L & R channels for some B&W's and added an amp for front L&R. Stereo for music and surround for movies.

Hope that helps.
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post #67 of 80 Old 01-19-2016, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastsvo View Post
I am following this thread with a lot of interest because I too have Klipsch (FC-20) towers with a Yamaha RX-v675 and still not completely "satisfied". In addition, I have a Klipsch 12" sub and my rears are in ceiling 8" proficient C801 (0* angled units - http://www.proficientaudio.com/produ...eiling-speaker).

So, I have been reading the forums a lot and learning about tuning the amp, making changes to the room, speaker placement, etc...

I am still in the learning phase and haven't had much time to fiddle with my setup. I did initially start calibrating with the YPAO mic, but have made so many changes to the calibration that I should just start over again.

My biggest issue is that I cannot hear dialogue well and that I really have to crank it up to get the performance I want during a movie action scene (for example). I just bought a center (Klipsch RC25) so that should make a big difference.

Since this thread is really active now and talking about Klipsch, I would like to get people's opinion given my hardware setup and the room itself (pic attached). My living and dining room is basically one big room, with hardwood floors and vaulted ceilings and I am starting to think that my setup is too bright for this environment or perhaps is it just a matter of calibration?

Thanks!
nothing wrong with the setup.

dialogue can be hard to hear nowadays. nothing about the speakers imo. watch a movie from the 70s and 80s and the dialogue is crystal clear.

also, if you have a lot of "noise" from surround channels or a lot of bass it may be even more difficult to hear

THANK YOU!!! for your selfless contribution to the audio world
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Thomas Drugeon for Rephase
John Mulcahy for room eq wizard
Denis Sbragion for DRC room correction
Juha Hartikainen for Winisd
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post #68 of 80 Old 01-19-2016, 09:53 AM
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btw, this is how our age affects how we hear. and one of the reasons why we dont all hear the same


THANK YOU!!! for your selfless contribution to the audio world
Anders Torger for Brutefir
Thomas Drugeon for Rephase
John Mulcahy for room eq wizard
Denis Sbragion for DRC room correction
Juha Hartikainen for Winisd
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post #69 of 80 Old 01-19-2016, 11:09 AM
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I agree with the new Klipsch' sounding bright. I also have a Kg system and get offended when I hear the generality "Klipsch' are bright". My Klipsch system includes Kg4 mains, KV3 center, RS-3 surrounds and a custom ACI Saturn compound sub. I tried to listen to the recent models a couple of years ago, but just didn't like them. They are too bright. BTW Klipsch didn't move from Hope AR to Indianapolis. Their engineering facility is there. I went through it several years ago on one of their "Pilgrimages". It was very impressive and a lot of fun. As far as I know they still run production in Hope.

I've used several receivers with my Klipsch' over the years. I find Yamaha to be workhorses, being able to handle anything you can throw at them. It just doesn't have as much depth or detail as other brands. I also had a Sony flagship receiver which I felt sounded very nice. My Denon sounded the best out of all receivers I've had. Much more musical than the Sony with more depth and detail than the Yamaha. However I get my best sound using my Emotiva separates. I have the UMC-200 pre/pro and XPA-5 amp. My player is the OPPO 93. My Emo system sounds good with all my speaker systems, from my cheap NHT SAT 24, to my Legacy Focus/Silver Screen/Mist system. For the price of a good AVR, I think separates are a much better option.
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post #70 of 80 Old 01-19-2016, 12:32 PM
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I agree with the new Klipsch' sounding bright. I also have a Kg system and get offended when I hear the generality "Klipsch' are bright". My Klipsch system includes Kg4 mains, KV3 center, RS-3 surrounds and a custom ACI Saturn compound sub. I tried to listen to the recent models a couple of years ago, but just didn't like them. They are too bright. BTW Klipsch didn't move from Hope AR to Indianapolis. Their engineering facility is there. I went through it several years ago on one of their "Pilgrimages". It was very impressive and a lot of fun. As far as I know they still run production in Hope.

I've used several receivers with my Klipsch' over the years. I find Yamaha to be workhorses, being able to handle anything you can throw at them. It just doesn't have as much depth or detail as other brands. I also had a Sony flagship receiver which I felt sounded very nice. My Denon sounded the best out of all receivers I've had. Much more musical than the Sony with more depth and detail than the Yamaha. However I get my best sound using my Emotiva separates. I have the UMC-200 pre/pro and XPA-5 amp. My player is the OPPO 93. My Emo system sounds good with all my speaker systems, from my cheap NHT SAT 24, to my Legacy Focus/Silver Screen/Mist system. For the price of a good AVR, I think separates are a much better option.
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post #71 of 80 Old 01-20-2016, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by kjfalls View Post
I agree with the new Klipsch' sounding bright. I also have a Kg system and get offended when I hear the generality "Klipsch' are bright". My Klipsch system includes Kg4 mains, KV3 center, RS-3 surrounds and a custom ACI Saturn compound sub. I tried to listen to the recent models a couple of years ago, but just didn't like them. They are too bright. BTW Klipsch didn't move from Hope AR to Indianapolis. Their engineering facility is there. I went through it several years ago on one of their "Pilgrimages". It was very impressive and a lot of fun. As far as I know they still run production in Hope.

I've used several receivers with my Klipsch' over the years. I find Yamaha to be workhorses, being able to handle anything you can throw at them. It just doesn't have as much depth or detail as other brands. I also had a Sony flagship receiver which I felt sounded very nice. My Denon sounded the best out of all receivers I've had. Much more musical than the Sony with more depth and detail than the Yamaha. However I get my best sound using my Emotiva separates. I have the UMC-200 pre/pro and XPA-5 amp. My player is the OPPO 93. My Emo system sounds good with all my speaker systems, from my cheap NHT SAT 24, to my Legacy Focus/Silver Screen/Mist system. For the price of a good AVR, I think separates are a much better option.
i like separates myself , and use a umc200 too but I think the biggest thing is good room correction. I flat out just wont buy a receiver without advanced room correction. I made that mistake with a sony receiver and the r26f speakers. never again.

I have a sherwood r972 with trinnov and I would say its a pretty good challenger to the umc200

THANK YOU!!! for your selfless contribution to the audio world
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Thomas Drugeon for Rephase
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post #72 of 80 Old 01-20-2016, 10:36 PM - Thread Starter
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My Marantz receiver arrived today. Finished hooking it up about 6 hours ago. I have been waiting to reply but I couldn't leave my couch because it sounded so good. I will say Marantz has a new fan today as does Audyssey. The receiver was certainly the cause of my sound problems. My Klipsch speakers sound phenomenal now! Klipsch solidified a fan as well. That sharpness in certain sounds, the hissing of S sounds, sudden gains in volume on the same notes, all of that has disappeared. The speakers sound so full and balanced. Absolutely amazing. Anyone who says that receivers don't affect sound quality are 100% wrong. Prior to my receiver being delivered today I went back to the audio store where I first heard my Klipsch speakers and the sales rep verified that they were connected to a Marantz receiver at that time. He says the two brands pair very well.

The features of the Marantz absolutely blow the Onkyo away also. There's an option to turn the display completely off while the receiver is still running that way you don't have any annoying peripheral light when watching movies. My Sony blu ray player doesn't have a display so now there are no lights from my electrical equipment while watching movies. Awesome. Audyssey got my speaker size and crossovers perfect. The only thing I had to adjust was distance, which Audyssey actually did get correct as I placed my mic slightly in front of my listening position on the first measure. Audyssey recommends doing it that way as to not get any sound waves bouncing off the couch back into the mic. The sound levels were almost perfect as well. With my SPL meter I think I had to only adjust two speakers half a decibel. I guess room correction is a real thing. Audyssey MultEQ had an option for flat which is where sound would be balanced. Then it had an option for the reference that Audyssey measured and when that option was turned on the sound was as perfect as I've ever heard it. I think with the better receiver and the better auto EQ, it certainly had a very noticeable effect on my speakers. Thank God I don't have to replace my speakers. Was not happy about possibly having to do that.

One other thing that I did notice make a significant difference was my crossover point. The minimum frequency of my Klipsch fronts is 48hz and 60hz for my center channel. The sales rep in the store said to set my crossover to 60hz. I always had my crossover set to the THX standard of 80hz. He said that crossover should always be set to the minimum that your front speakers are able to handle and only to reserve the lowest of frequencies for the subwoofer. He stated that would ensure a fuller sound for my fronts. He also stated that when lower signals get sent to the fronts it tones down the highs and will eliminate some of the brightness. This guy knows his stuff because it worked really well. Audyssey even set my crossovers to 60hz. The speakers sounded great. I manually set them to 80hz to see if I noticed a difference and a very noticeable amount of brightness came back. The hissing of S sounds could be heard again. I set it back to 60hz and immediately the sound was crystal clear again. Amazing. My Onkyo receiver was set to 80hz for my crossover. I'm sure if I switched it to 60hz it would sound better but overall it would still be no much for the sound this Marantz puts out. The clarity of my mids is incredible. Instruments sound so clear and independent of each other. I just watched an Earth, Wind, & Fire concert DVD on DTS 5.1 surround. It felt like I was there. The drums, guitars, horns, saxophone, vocals, everything was so clear. I put in a blu ray to test it out. Dialogue was crystal clear. Both movies and music sound amazing. Although music sounds fantastic my Klipsch speakers really do shine during movies.

I have had these Klipsch speakers connected to two Onkyo receivers and a Yamaha receiver (which had a 5 star rating on CNET) and my speakers sounded awful. With the Marantz it's like I have a set of completely different speakers. I will never buy another brand of receiver again. I don't even want to experiment. The funny thing is, the Marantz is the lowest watts per channel receiver I have ever owned at 50 wpc. One of my Onkyo's was 80, the other 65, and the Yamaha 70. My speakers are very efficient however and at 10 watts my center channel plays at 106 db. Efficiency is a huge perk of owning Klipsch speakers. I think I finally found the right combo. I know other people had this same issue with Klipsch/Onkyo pairings. From first hand experience I'm telling you that switching receivers absolutely makes a very significant difference. I highly recommended switching receivers to those who had these same issue with their Klipsch speakers. I recommend Marantz all the way. Now I know why most people recommend them over other brands.

Last edited by JFriden; 01-21-2016 at 12:39 AM.
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post #73 of 80 Old 01-20-2016, 11:33 PM
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Great feedback! Which model of Marantz did you buy?
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post #74 of 80 Old 01-21-2016, 12:36 AM - Thread Starter
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NR1506. It's a 5.2 receiver which is what my setup is. I finally feel like I have surround sound. I just watched Terminator which I've seen plenty of times using my Onkyo receiver. I actually think the rear channels were malfunctioning on the Onkyo. I can only recall three scenes out of the hundreds of movies I own, mostly with 5.1 surround, where I could hear something from the rear channels. The first ten minutes of watching Terminator there were so many sounds coming from the rears. It was an entirely new experience. I'm glad I bought the new receiver or else I would've never known that. It makes me detest the Onkyo that much more. I finally have surround sound with the Marantz. It's such an awesome experience. It's truly amazing how sound quality can alter the movie experience. It makes the experience so much more engaging. I am very pleased with the Marantz and it's only day one. My sound has truly been transformed. Unless Marantz somehow has a complete reversal in their quality I will never buy another brand of receiver in the future. For all Klipsch users having brightness issues or a very sharp sound, I recommend pairing your speakers with a Marantz receiver. I still had to lower the treble a bit. About half way but the sound is perfect. With the Onkyo I had to turn the treble all the way down and it was still sharp. I'm hearing so many sounds I didn't hear before and with such clarity. Marantz all the way.
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post #75 of 80 Old 01-21-2016, 02:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFriden View Post
NR1506. It's a 5.2 receiver which is what my setup is. I finally feel like I have surround sound. I just watched Terminator which I've seen plenty of times using my Onkyo receiver. I actually think the rear channels were malfunctioning on the Onkyo. I can only recall three scenes out of the hundreds of movies I own, mostly with 5.1 surround, where I could hear something from the rear channels. The first ten minutes of watching Terminator there were so many sounds coming from the rears. It was an entirely new experience. I'm glad I bought the new receiver or else I would've never known that. It makes me detest the Onkyo that much more. I finally have surround sound with the Marantz. It's such an awesome experience. It's truly amazing how sound quality can alter the movie experience. It makes the experience so much more engaging. I am very pleased with the Marantz and it's only day one. My sound has truly been transformed. Unless Marantz somehow has a complete reversal in their quality I will never buy another brand of receiver in the future. For all Klipsch users having brightness issues or a very sharp sound, I recommend pairing your speakers with a Marantz receiver. I still had to lower the treble a bit. About half way but the sound is perfect. With the Onkyo I had to turn the treble all the way down and it was still sharp. I'm hearing so many sounds I didn't hear before and with such clarity. Marantz all the way.
Nice! Review the first few posts in the 2015 Marantz Owner's thread linked below and post any AVR related questions in that thread as well.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...-s-thread.html
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post #76 of 80 Old 01-21-2016, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFriden View Post
My Marantz receiver arrived today. Finished hooking it up about 6 hours ago. I have been waiting to reply but I couldn't leave my couch because it sounded so good. I will say Marantz has a new fan today as does Audyssey. The receiver was certainly the cause of my sound problems.
wellllll... technically the bright speakers are the cause of the problems. Its just that audyssey et al do a darn good job of fixing those upside down response problems.

btw, congrats on getting it to sound great. I bet you the soundstage is greatly improved as well.
my speakers are crossed over at 60hz as well

THANK YOU!!! for your selfless contribution to the audio world
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Thomas Drugeon for Rephase
John Mulcahy for room eq wizard
Denis Sbragion for DRC room correction
Juha Hartikainen for Winisd
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post #77 of 80 Old 01-21-2016, 07:04 AM
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btw, i'll have to check out the marantz receiver as I may be buying a new receiver.

my room sounds great. the umc200 is awesome and it uses IIR filters to create a pretty nice soundfield. but just for fun yesterday I took my sherwood r972 with trinnov and put it in place of the umc200 and used the preouts to the same amps I normally run. the main difference between the two is that, like audyssey, trinnov also does FIR filters.

it took the sound to a whole new level. like you, I was sitting there just wondering how it can be possible for my speakers and room to sound so good.

the r972 is on its way out though so Im going to be looking for a new FIR + IIR receiver soon.

THANK YOU!!! for your selfless contribution to the audio world
Anders Torger for Brutefir
Thomas Drugeon for Rephase
John Mulcahy for room eq wizard
Denis Sbragion for DRC room correction
Juha Hartikainen for Winisd
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post #78 of 80 Old 01-21-2016, 06:15 PM
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Thank you for keeping your post updated with your findings. I was following along, because I'm in the boat for a new receiver. Have 2 Klipsch RF 60 II in the fronts, 440C and 12" sub. Need to buy some good read surrounds to complete my 5.1.
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post #79 of 80 Old 05-21-2018, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videologist View Post
Having one through this scenario several times since I started to get into quality stereo components in 1977, I finally learned a few lessons the hard way ($$$$$)

1) Audio equipment never sound the same in your home as it does in the showroom
2) Old school designs, like the (Kliprsch speakers) have old style sound and old style problems.
3) Modern amplifiers, preamps, AV receivers, etc. have distortion levels well below 1% (many are well below 0.01%) which are ridiculously low and cannot be heard by the human ear. They are flat within a tolerance level that is not discernible by human ears. Numerous tests by qualified engineers have proven this to be true.
4) Speakers typically have distortion of 10 to 20% at listening levels.

Obviously speakers are still the weakest link in the audio chain and are most likely to be anyone's problem (which I suspect to be yours).

I've been running Pioneer Elite AV receivers for some years now because they sound just as good as my old high end components (i.e. I can't heard a difference between any of them), their automatic equalization process is very simple to use and sounds excellent to me.

5) Auto equalization now operates in the digital domain so it does not mess up the audio quality like it did on the old days. In the old days the analog equalizers we used introduced a huge amount of phase shift at each frequency that it was affecting, so yes the levels were flat but the sound was muddy or dull because of al the phase shifting all over the place. Today, quality AV receivers do this al in the digital woman which does not affect phase at all which partly is why a modern moderately priced AV receiver can sound so good compared to the old expensive gear.

6) The only way to know if a gear will sound good in your home is to try it in your home. You must audition everything you want to buy all at once, together. Run the auto-equalization feature (yes your room is altering your sound, it happens to everyone) and play a very wide variety of material that you are familiar with and will be enjoying in the future. Try to get as long a demo as possible, you'll be surprised to hear that the system doe snot sound as good the second or third day, when all your adrenaline has run out. That is when you will experience the system with a truly critical ear.

7) Future proof your system as much as possible. You might not think that you want or need all those fact features today but you will tomorrow. My friend's homes are all fully equipped with my leftover gear that I abandoned when I made each upgrade.

8) Put most of your money into your speakers. You did this correctly but you just needed to have a much better audition period in your home to see if they actually work well for you.

9) Salespeople lie. They are out to make a buck and I hold most of them with the same level of contempt as I do for used car salespeople. They get commissions (look up SPIF) from the manufacturers to push certain gear at certain ties of the year, regardless of it being good for you or not. Their demo rooms are set up much differently from your home and they put a lot of effort into making things sound much better in there than you can ever get in your home. This session cost me more than one small fortune, The only thing that you can trust are your ears in your own home.

10) Its worth putting the effort in to get your system to sound right for you, its a judge call and you are the sole judge that matters.
Wonderful post, this should be stickied!
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post #80 of 80 Old 05-21-2018, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1201 View Post

I have a sherwood r972 with trinnov and I would say its a pretty good challenger to the umc200
It’s so sad there isn’t a reasonably priced avr with trinnov nowadays.
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