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post #3031 of 4008 Old 01-31-2017, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Even with channel-based DTS:X soundtracks, I don't think additional speakers will be silent. On last year's AVRs, DTS:X decoding used Neural to extract Wides when playing back 7.1.4 soundtracks on a 9.1.2 layout. As speaker counts grow, there's no reason it can't do the same extraction for Top Middles when playing 7.1.4 soundtracks on 7.1.6 or 9.1.6 layouts.

Sounds that are common to the L/R Front Height channels can feed a Centre Front Height speaker; sounds that are common to all 4 height channels can feed VOG speaker(s). After all, that's where those common sounds would have phantom imaged anyway. The intent of the mix remains intact. Which is why I said it wasn't a big deal either way.
Yes, that would be logical if channel based did that. A actual speaker is better than a phantom one.

I wish Auro could upmix say a 9.1 native mix to the speaker count you have 10.1, 11.. 13.1 etc.

DTS:X is a little smarter, maybe...

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post #3032 of 4008 Old 01-31-2017, 07:56 PM
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Bummer !!!

But hey, it was still a cool demo, right?
Yeah!

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Maybe there is hope for the other one... you know..
Lol, no.
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post #3033 of 4008 Old 01-31-2017, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
I wish Auro could upmix say a 9.1 native mix to the speaker count you have 10.1, 11.. 13.1 etc.
Auro and Atmos started off as theatrical formats, so it follows that neither one has upmixing built into the decoder (commercial cinemas don't use surround processing).
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post #3034 of 4008 Old 02-01-2017, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
I wish Auro could upmix say a 9.1 native mix to the speaker count you have 10.1, 11.. 13.1 etc. DTS:X is a little smarter, maybe...

Before the first consumer Auro3D decoders appeared, I seem to recall 'industry insiders' posting about negotiations between Auro Technologies and the film industry. My recollection is that they reported Auro Technologies made a commitment that mass market home decoders would be limited to Auro3D 9.1 and Auro3D 10.1 presentation speaker configurations, even though BDs can support Auro3D 8.0 thru Auro3D 13.1 input channel configurations, i.e., 8.0 thru 13.1 channel input will always be upmixed|downmixed to 9.1 or 10.1.

However it seems like it should be possible to transcode the Auro3D 9.1 content output from a BD player (Encrypted Auro-encoded 5.1 PCM Master) into a DTS:X bitstream (configured as 5.1.4 + 0 objects) in a standalone box placed between the BD player and an AVR. The delivered 'native' DTS:X bitstream would be upmixed|downmixed|remapped per the present|future capabilities of the DTS:X decoder in the AVR. The question remains whether a market exists for such a product at a reasonable price...?!


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post #3035 of 4008 Old 02-01-2017, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Even with channel-based DTS:X soundtracks, I don't think additional speakers will be silent. On last year's AVRs, DTS:X decoding used Neural to extract Wides when playing back 7.1.4 soundtracks on a 9.1.2 layout. As speaker counts grow, there's no reason it can't do the same extraction for Top Middles when playing 7.1.4 soundtracks on 7.1.6 or 9.1.6 layouts.

Sounds that are common to the L/R Front Height channels can feed a Centre Front Height speaker; sounds that are common to all 4 height channels can feed VOG speaker(s). After all, that's where those common sounds would have phantom imaged anyway. The intent of the mix remains intact. Which is why I said it wasn't a big deal either way.
So we have:

Auro3D = bed channels
ATMOS = bed channels + objects
DTS:X = bed channels + (user adjustable) objects + upmixer

If and when DTS gets its act together...
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post #3036 of 4008 Old 02-01-2017, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
So we have:

Auro3D = bed channels
ATMOS = bed channels + objects
DTS:X = bed channels + (user adjustable) objects + upmixer
There are a lot fewer objects with DTS:X . Hardly any, AFAIR.

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If and when DTS gets its act together...
if it does, what?

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post #3037 of 4008 Old 02-01-2017, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
DTS:X = bed channels + (user adjustable) objects + upmixer
Upmixer only for the channels portion of a DTS:X mix. Any objects in the mix will natively scale to the speaker layout.
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post #3038 of 4008 Old 02-01-2017, 08:26 AM
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There are a lot fewer objects with DTS:X . Hardly any, AFAIR.
True, but those few objects are unique in the way they can be made user-adjustable (e.g. sound level, position).
And who needs a whole lot of objects being rendererd during playback, if you can upmix a bed channel based 7.1.4 configuration all the way up to 14.1.13 discrete channels?

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if it does, what?
It will become the most versatile immersive format.

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post #3039 of 4008 Old 02-01-2017, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
There are a lot fewer objects with DTS:X . Hardly any, AFAIR.
The home version of DTS:X currently has 16.2 waveforms. The ".2" is for two independent LFE channels; the "16" can be channels or objects or any combination thereof. The 'Ip Man 3' Blu-ray, for example, has 7 main channels + 4 height channels + 5 objects. So it uses all 16 waveforms. If they had done 7.1 channels, then they would have had 9 objects available.

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post #3040 of 4008 Old 02-01-2017, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
True, but those few objects are unique in the way they can be made user-adjustable (e.g. sound level, position).
I don't want to make this into Atmos advocacy, but are you saying there's something unique about the user-adjustableness that is absent from Atmos?

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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
And who needs a whole lot of objects being rendererd during playback, if you can upmix a bed channel based 7.1.4 configuration all the way up to 14.1.13 discrete channels?
I wasn't talking about upmixing, but playback of genuine object-based audio.

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It will become the most versatile immersive format.
that doesn't follow.

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post #3041 of 4008 Old 02-01-2017, 09:18 AM
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It will become the most versatile immersive format.



The lack of efficiency in the DTS codec does not favor itself to versatility.

That and lack of studio support.
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post #3042 of 4008 Old 02-01-2017, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
So we have:

Auro3D = bed channels
ATMOS = bed channels + objects
DTS:X = bed channels + (user adjustable) objects + upmixer
And still forthcoming...

Dolby AC-4 = bed channels + (user adjustable) objects . . . stream|download|BD?
MPEG-H 3D Audio = bed channels + Higher Order Ambisonics (HOA) scenes + (user adjustable) objects . . . stream|download but no BD?


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If and when DTS gets its act together...
My guess is that we won't see a newer iteration of the DTS:X decoder until after Dolby defines the attributes of its integrated AC-4|Atmos|DSU code|firmware for 'future year' AVRs to the CEMs...?!


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post #3043 of 4008 Old 02-01-2017, 10:33 AM
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The lack of efficiency in the DTS codec does not favor itself to versatility.
I was merely referring to functional versatility, but yes, lack of efficiency seems to be their main bottle neck in 'getting their act together'.

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post #3044 of 4008 Old 02-01-2017, 10:46 AM
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I was merely referring to functional versatility, but yes, lack of efficiency seems to be their main bottle neck in 'getting their act together'.
Besides having a control for their dialog level object (if it is present, no retail software is currently) what does DTS have over Dolby are far as functions? They are quite equal wrt capability.
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post #3045 of 4008 Old 02-01-2017, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Besides having a control for their dialog level object (if it is present, no retail software is currently) what does DTS have over Dolby are far as functions? They are quite equal wrt capability.

With regard to dialog level control: My understanding is that this feature is intended to function for both Dolby AC-4 and DTS:X in AV environments either with or without an AVR present, e.g., a TV directly connected to a BDP. That scenario would seem to require some limited AC-4|DTS:X decoding|rendering to be included in either|both the HDTV and the BDP . . . plus possible changes to the [current] HDMI signalling between them?

My guess is we need to wait for the arrival of HDTVs carrying Dolby AC-4 or DTS:X ‘capable’ logos before dialog level control is available...?!


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post #3046 of 4008 Old 02-01-2017, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Besides having a control for their dialog level object (if it is present, no retail software is currently) what does DTS have over Dolby are far as functions? They are quite equal wrt capability.
AFAIK DTS:X doesn't have any added functionality over Dolby Atmos. I think DTS' sales proposition is more to the content producers: Dolby's is a very locked down ecosystem: mix your feature (or, eventually, TV episode) in Dolby Atmos, to be played back in cinemas or home theaters in Dolby Atmos. And, oh by the way, pay Dolby a licensing fee at each step in the chain. DTS's plan was to offer up MDA as an object-based equivalent to PCM - a file format that can be used, royalty free, for mixing content using objects, which can then be played back on any hardware that can decode it. DTS as a pure licensing play on the playback side, whereas Dolby trying to maintain their historical business of licensing the encoding codec to content producers.
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post #3047 of 4008 Old 02-02-2017, 12:37 AM
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Besides having a control for their dialog level object (if it is present, no retail software is currently) what does DTS have over Dolby are far as functions? They are quite equal wrt capability.
- DTS:X has a limitless number of objects available in the re-recording process;
- DTS:X has the ability to either array or up-mix bed channels to additional speakers;
- DTS:X can project sounds from coming below the screen.

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post #3048 of 4008 Old 02-02-2017, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
With regard to dialog level control: My understanding is that this feature is intended to function for both Dolby AC-4 and DTS:X in AV environments either with or without an AVR present, e.g., a TV directly connected to a BDP. That scenario would seem to require some limited AC-4|DTS:X decoding|rendering to be included in either|both the HDTV and the BDP . . . plus possible changes to the [current] HDMI signalling between them?

My guess is we need to wait for the arrival of HDTVs carrying Dolby AC-4 or DTS:X ‘capable’ logos before dialog level control is available...?!


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As a reminder, the new DTS:X Dialog Control feature on 2015 and 2016 DTS:X capable AVRs can be enabled when playing the 2016 DTS:X Demo Disc – “All Around Us” clip.

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post #3049 of 4008 Old 02-02-2017, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
I don't want to make this into Atmos advocacy, but are you saying there's something unique about the user-adjustableness that is absent from Atmos?
Yes.

Quote:
I wasn't talking about upmixing, but playback of genuine object-based audio.
When playing an ATMOS track on a 7.1 legacy lay-out, the ATMOS playback renderer is off. Though the vertical component (overheads) is missing, the spatial resolution of the objects embedded in the channel bed does not suffer. While ATMOS only has the object playback renderer to involve additional speakers, DTS:X can also apply logic steering (up mixer). If the same number of speakers are used, the resulting spatial resolution for a given sound will be the same with either method.

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post #3050 of 4008 Old 02-02-2017, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
- DTS:X has a limitless number of objects available in the re-recording process;
- DTS:X has the ability to either array or up-mix bed channels to additional speakers;
- DTS:X can project sounds from coming below the screen.
Are we likely to see any of that implemented in AVR's/processors?

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post #3051 of 4008 Old 02-02-2017, 02:24 AM
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Are we likely to see any of that implemented in AVR's/processors?
The first two already are, as:
1) A DTS:X soundtrack is made using objects (MDA), and
2) Adding wides to a 7.1.2 config will activate its up mixer.

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post #3052 of 4008 Old 02-02-2017, 02:26 AM
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Yes.

When playing an ATMOS track on a 7.1 legacy lay-out, the ATMOS playback renderer is off.
"off" how?

Someone said:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...l#post44777545
Quote:
Playing Atmos without overhead speakers engaged on a 7.1 speaker lay-out, is 100% identical to playing the TrueHD 7.1 legacy track.
batpig explains it well in https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...l#post45630697
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Let's say a particular movie on BD was originally a standard DTS 7.1 encode. Somebody sat down and made a 7.1 channel mix to put on the Blu-ray, and it was packed onto the disc in a DTS container. Now, they produce a "special edition" version with a brand new Atmos mix (e.g. what happened with The Fifth Element). They do not just take that same DTS 7.1 mix and stuff it into an Atmos container. The mixer will go back to the original sound elements (as much as possible) and produce a completely new mix of the soundtrack. Certain audio elements will be converted to objects, some elements (e.g. music) will be moved to the overheads, they will tweak other aspects to compensate for the different balance, etc. You end up with a totally new Atmos mix consisting of channels+objects.

Then that Atmos mix is encoded onto a BD via a Dolby TrueHD container. Part of the output is a "core" 7.1 channel based downmix, which includes all the object info folded into the channels for legacy support.

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post #3053 of 4008 Old 02-02-2017, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
The first two already are, as:
1) A DTS:X soundtrack is made using objects (MDA), and
2) Adding wides to a 7.1.2 config will activate its up mixer.
Noting that this only applies to the 2015 major brand models as Front Wide support was dropped on all major brand 2016 models.

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post #3054 of 4008 Old 02-02-2017, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
The first two already are, as:
1) A DTS:X soundtrack is made using objects (MDA), and
2) Adding wides to a 7.1.2 config will activate its up mixer.
I'm looking forward to try this out, wasn't expecting the wides to be used in DTS:X.

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post #3055 of 4008 Old 02-02-2017, 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
"off" how?
"Off" as in "not active", as the renderer would only extract the embedded objects from the 7.1 channel bed to put them back from where they came from. I used this example merely to point out that you do not necessarily need a playback object renderer to enjoy the increased spatial resolution of a soundtrack that is re-recorder/mixed using object based technology.

And that 'someone' said it right , as @baptig did.

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post #3056 of 4008 Old 02-02-2017, 02:46 AM
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Noting that this only applies to the 2015 major brand models as Front Wide support was dropped on all major brand 2016 models.
That makes that decision a slap in the face of both home Atmos and DTS:X.
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post #3057 of 4008 Old 02-02-2017, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
"off" how?
"Off" as in the TrueHD decoder is activated (to unpack the losslessly packed audio) but the Atmos decoder isn't active (no need to unpack objects). TrueHD has a nested structure: inside the Atmos mix is a 7.1 mix, inside the 7.1 mix is a 5.1 mix, inside the 5.1 mix is a 2.0 mix. So if you have a 5.1-speaker layout, only the 5.1-channel mix is decoded. No need to waste resources decoding 7.1 channels and objects only to then downmix to 5.1 when there already is a 5.1 mix nested inside. Atmos decoding never has to turn on.

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post #3058 of 4008 Old 02-02-2017, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
As a reminder, the new DTS:X Dialog Control feature on 2015 and 2016 DTS:X capable AVRs can be enabled when playing the 2016 DTS:X Demo Disc – “All Around Us” clip.
That DTS:X demo disc also has a song by Holly Miranda with her vocals as a separate object. Testing it on a Denon 4300, the adjustment range was -12dB to +12dB, even thought the manual says the range is from 0dB to +6dB.

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post #3059 of 4008 Old 02-02-2017, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Noting that this only applies to the 2015 major brand models as Front Wide support was dropped on all major brand 2016 models.
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
That makes that decision a slap in the face of both home Atmos and DTS:X.


Although forthcoming immersive audio codec Dolby AC-4 retains front wide speakers (FLw|FRw) for both input and presentation configuration (speaker layout) use, they appear in only two speaker configurations. Recommendation ITU-R BS.2051-0 channel|speaker layout H (AC-4 Channel layout 22.2) is presumably included [only] to support the next generation Japanese TV system, but AC-4 Channel layout 7.Xa has no obvious equivalent Rec. ITU-R BS.2051-0 channel|speaker layout?!


Source: ETSI TS 103 190-2 V1.1.1 (2015-09) Digital Audio Compression (AC-4) Standard Part 2: Immersive and personalized audio (link)


Other pertinent documents:

Recommendation ITU-R BS.2051-0 (02/2014) Advanced sound system for programme production (link)

ETSI TS 103 190 V1.1.1 (2014-04) Digital Audio Compression (AC-4) Standard (link)


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post #3060 of 4008 Old 02-02-2017, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
"Off" as in the TrueHD decoder is activated (to unpack the losslessly packed audio) but the Atmos decoder isn't active (no need to unpack objects). TrueHD has a nested structure: inside the Atmos mix is a 7.1 mix, inside the 7.1 mix is a 5.1 mix, inside the 5.1 mix is a 2.0 mix. So if you have a 5.1-speaker layout, only the 5.1-channel mix is decoded. No need to waste resources decoding 7.1 channels and objects only to then downmix to 5.1 when there already is a 5.1 mix nested inside. Atmos decoding never has to turn on.
Oh yes, indeed correct I knew that part. I thought "off" was meaning "out of kilter" in some way, glad it wasn't.
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