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post #3571 of 3946 Old 02-19-2018, 09:45 AM
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So far, I'm not very impressed with DTS:X, which just sounds like a blurred mess of sound vs. the amazing experience that is Atmos. I thought it was just the movies, but I bought the Independence Day 4K disc, which seems to be one of the best and came away unimpressed.

After reading a blog the other day, it seems that it may have a lot to do with DTS' overly flexible speaker placement options. When I play the DTS:X Object Emulator, there's very little going on with the overhead panning in 7.1.2 set up, which uses Atmos front speakers (due to ceiling placement issues). Is this a common experience when using Atmos speakers?

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post #3572 of 3946 Old 02-19-2018, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MackGuyver View Post
So far, I'm not very impressed with DTS:X, which just sounds like a blurred mess of sound vs. the amazing experience that is Atmos. I thought it was just the movies, but I bought the Independence Day 4K disc, which seems to be one of the best and came away unimpressed.

After reading a blog the other day, it seems that it may have a lot to do with DTS' overly flexible speaker placement options. When I play the DTS:X Object Emulator, there's very little going on with the overhead panning in 7.1.2 set up, which uses Atmos front speakers (due to ceiling placement issues). Is this a common experience when using Atmos speakers?
I used that same clip, and heard a lot going on in my Atmos speakers. I have a 7.x 4... TF and TR.

I've always wondered... Since my receiver allows for many different 3D speaker configs, like FH/RH, FH/TR, TF/RH, and TF/TR, does my receiver do any of the steering? It does it just defer that to the built in algorithms from Atoms and DTS X?

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post #3573 of 3946 Old 02-19-2018, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by MackGuyver View Post
So far, I'm not very impressed with DTS:X, which just sounds like a blurred mess of sound vs. the amazing experience that is Atmos. I thought it was just the movies, but I bought the Independence Day 4K disc, which seems to be one of the best and came away unimpressed.

After reading a blog the other day, it seems that it may have a lot to do with DTS' overly flexible speaker placement options. When I play the DTS:X Object Emulator, there's very little going on with the overhead panning in 7.1.2 set up, which uses Atmos front speakers (due to ceiling placement issues). Is this a common experience when using Atmos speakers?
Actually, DTS: X has far less flexibility than Atmos. Part of your issue may be in using Atmos enabled bounce speakers. Your second best option apart from using ceiling speakers (ideal) is going with height speakers aimed toward the MLP. Either place them front wall/rear wall per Atmos angle requirements or side walls in the recommended overhead locations as per Atmos requirements.

Also, ID4 had a fairly tame immersive remix compared to the film's scene content. I was a bit disappointed.

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post #3574 of 3946 Old 02-19-2018, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
Since my receiver allows for many different 3D speaker configs, like FH/RH, FH/TR, TF/RH, and TF/TR, does my receiver do any of the steering? It does it just defer that to the built in algorithms from Atoms and DTS X?
Receiver manufacturers license technologies from Dolby and DTS. Those technologies determine which sounds go to which speakers. The only time a receiver is doing any of the steering is when proprietary processing (like Yamaha's Cinema DSP modes) is applied.

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post #3575 of 3946 Old 02-19-2018, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Actually, DTS: X has far less flexibility than Atmos. Part of your issue may be in using Atmos enabled bounce speakers. Your second best option apart from using ceiling speakers (ideal) is going with height speakers aimed toward the MLP. Either place them front wall/rear wall per Atmos angle requirements or side walls in the recommended overhead locations as per Atmos requirements.

Also, ID4 had a fairly tame immersive remix compared to the film's scene content. I was a bit disappointed.
Perhaps I'll try a few more movies, but the Atmos configuration is ideal, so I don't think I'll mess that up for the (thus far) small number of DTS:X releases.

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post #3576 of 3946 Old 02-19-2018, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Actually, DTS: X has far less flexibility than Atmos. Part of your issue may be in using Atmos enabled bounce speakers. Your second best option apart from using ceiling speakers (ideal) is going with height speakers aimed toward the MLP. Either place them front wall/rear wall per Atmos angle requirements or side walls in the recommended overhead locations as per Atmos requirements.

Also, ID4 had a fairly tame immersive remix compared to the film's scene content. I was a bit disappointed.
Perhaps I'll try a few more movies, but the Atmos configuration is ideal, so I don't think I'll mess that up for the (thus far) small number of DTS:X releases.
What I recommended in terms of heights if you cannot do ceilings, would help Atmos tracks as well. Enabled speakers are faaaaaaaaaar down my list of viable alternatives to reproduce immersive mixes effectively.
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post #3577 of 3946 Old 02-19-2018, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by MackGuyver View Post
So far, I'm not very impressed with DTS:X, which just sounds like a blurred mess of sound vs. the amazing experience that is Atmos. I thought it was just the movies, but I bought the Independence Day 4K disc, which seems to be one of the best and came away unimpressed...
It's possible that you may have additional "Neural:X processing" added onto your DTS:X tracks; it's on by default on my Denon, and the setting is only available during playback of said format under Setup>>Audio>>Surround Parameters (see attached)
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post #3578 of 3946 Old 02-19-2018, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by galonzo View Post
It's possible that you may have additional "Neural:X processing" added onto your DTS:X tracks; it's on by default on my Denon, and the setting is only available during playback of said format under Setup>>Audio>>Surround Parameters (see attached)
If Atmos or DTS:X is on the disc and in play, the DSU and Neural X modes are disengaged altogether.

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post #3579 of 3946 Old 02-19-2018, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
If Atmos or DTS:X is on the disc and in play, the DSU and Neural X modes are disengaged altogether.
If you look at the screenshot in my post (from the manual), this surround parameter setting is only available when the incoming signal is DTS:X or DTS: X MSTR (this is for D&M AVRs)

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post #3580 of 3946 Old 02-19-2018, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by galonzo View Post
If you look at the screenshot in my post (from the manual), this surround parameter setting is only available when the incoming signal is DTS:X or DTS: X MSTR (this is for D&M AVRs)
Correct, but Neural X is completely overridden if you are receiving a DTS:X signal. You can't play DTS:X and Neural X at the same time.

Just like DSU is overridden when Atmos is being received.

DSU and Neural X can be applied to any other Dolby or DTS signal otherwise and can be cross-matched (at least on my Anthem, it can).
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post #3581 of 3946 Old 02-19-2018, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
What I recommended in terms of heights if you cannot do ceilings, would help Atmos tracks as well. Enabled speakers are faaaaaaaaaar down my list of viable alternatives to reproduce immersive mixes effectively.
I understand they are far from ideal...but I actually tried other speakers mounted as front heights and compared them and found the enabled speakers to work better in my room. I have a lot of acoustic treatment on the walls and none on the ceiling, so it actually works quite well.

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post #3582 of 3946 Old 02-19-2018, 12:56 PM
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Correct, but Neural X is completely overridden if you are receiving a DTS:X signal. You can't play DTS:X and Neural X at the same time.

Just like DSU is overridden when Atmos is being received.

DSU and Neural X can be applied to any other Dolby or DTS signal otherwise and can be cross-matched (at least on my Anthem, it can).
From our D&M resident expert, @jdsmoothie , here's the post from two years ago regarding this setting that only applies to the object-based DTS:X tracks (otherwise, why wouldn't the setting be available when using the Neural:X upmixer on any other type of signal)?

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I understand they are far from ideal...but I actually tried other speakers mounted as front heights and compared them and found the enabled speakers to work better in my room. I have a lot of acoustic treatment on the walls and none on the ceiling, so it actually works quite well.
Andrew Jones seems to think so, too... and I agree!

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post #3584 of 3946 Old 02-19-2018, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by galonzo View Post
From our D&M resident expert, @jdsmoothie , here's the post from two years ago regarding this setting that only applies to the object-based DTS:X tracks (otherwise, why wouldn't the setting be available when using the Neural:X upmixer on any other type of signal)?
OK. Wow, what a horrifically stupid design decision that was. My Anthem completely disengages those modes when either Atmos or DTS:X is present.

That's like having to turn off the Dolby 5.1 mode in order for Dolby TrueHD to work.
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post #3585 of 3946 Old 02-19-2018, 01:12 PM
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OK. Wow, what a horrifically stupid design decision that was. My Anthem completely disengages those modes when either Atmos or DTS:X is present.

That's like having to turn off the Dolby 5.1 mode in order for Dolby TrueHD to work.
Right, now that we're on the same page, this whole discussion was to help @MackGuyver with what he was hearing ("sounds like a blurred mess of sound vs. the amazing experience that is Atmos"); this setting may be ON by default in his case (should now be the default setting for more recent firmware), thus up-mixing non-object-based audio to all of his speakers

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post #3586 of 3946 Old 02-19-2018, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by galonzo View Post
Right, now that we're on the same page, this whole discussion was to help @MackGuyver with what he was hearing ("sounds like a blurred mess of sound vs. the amazing experience that is Atmos"); this setting may be ON by default in his case (should now be the default setting for more recent firmware), thus up-mixing non-object-based audio to all of his speakers

Yuck, so he's basically getting two different tracks sent to the same speakers.

That needs to be fixed with a firmware update.

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Originally Posted by galonzo View Post
If you look at the screenshot in my post (from the manual), this surround parameter setting is only available when the incoming signal is DTS:X or DTS: X MSTR (this is for D&M AVRs)
When that parameter is On, the wides get a centre output extracted from the front & side channels. When that parameter is Off, wides get a copy of the side channels. Matrix scaling is part of decoding a DTS:X track. When the bitstream is unpacked, channels and objects are sent down separate paths. Channels are scaled (up or down) to your speaker layout while objects are mapped/rendered to that same layout. Once everything is conformed to your layout, the two paths are combined for output. The scaling is done using Neural:X. It can't be disengaged since it is built into the decoder. This is separate from the Neural:X mode that is applied to legacy (non-immersive) soundtracks.

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post #3588 of 3946 Old 02-19-2018, 03:11 PM
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When that parameter is On, the wides get a centre output extracted from the front & side channels. When that parameter is Off, wides get a copy of the side channels. Matrix scaling is part of decoding a DTS:X track. When the bitstream is unpacked, channels and objects are sent down separate paths. Channels are scaled (up or down) to your speaker layout while objects are mapped/rendered to that same layout. Once everything is conformed to your layout, the two paths are combined for output. The scaling is done using Neural:X. It can't be disengaged since it is built into the decoder. This is separate from the Neural:X mode that is applied to legacy (non-immersive) soundtracks.

Yes. When DTS:X is being decoded, it looks like Neural:X is described as "the DTS:X spatial remapping engine" in some product literaature.

However, the only reason I can see to disable Neural:X remapping during DTS:X decoding is if the input 7.-.2 channel spaceframe is part of a DTS:X AV stream (and NOT from a DTS:X BD) for which the 7.-.2 channel component of the DTS:X input stream is NOT in DTS:X BD "HOA|G-format"(?) but rather already remapped into the actual N.-.M speaker format emplaced on the AVR. One example of this might be an external BD player with on-board Auro3D decoding plus AuroMax style post processing directly optimized for the actual speaker layout, and delivering 'finished' AV content transcoded into DTS:X to the AVR.


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post #3589 of 3946 Old 02-19-2018, 03:47 PM
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Yes. When DTS:X is being decoded, it looks like Neural:X is described as "the DTS:X spatial remapping engine" in some product literaature.
It's basically parts of Neural:X that do 2 in 3 out and 2 in 4 out. When upmixing 5.1 to 7.1, the 2 surround channels are converted to 4 surround outputs. When upmixing a 2-channel signal, the two main inputs are converted to 3 front outputs. These parts of Neural:X are used during DTS:X decoding whenever the soundtrack lacks channels for any of the speakers in your layout (e.g., wides, top middles, etc).
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However, the only reason I can see to disable Neural:X remapping during DTS:X decoding is if the input 7.-.2 channel spaceframe is part of a DTS:X AV stream (and NOT from a DTS:X BD) for which the 7.-.2 channel component of the DTS:X input stream is NOT in DTS:X BD "HOA|G-format"(?) but rather already remapped into the actual N.-.M speaker format emplaced on the AVR. One example of this might be an external BD player with on-board Auro3D decoding plus AuroMax style post processing directly optimized for the actual speaker layout, and delivering 'finished' AV content transcoded into DTS:X to the AVR.
I'll have to consult my SoundChex to English dictionary to parse the above text. Higher Order Ambisonics, Auro3D, Auro-Max; what, no mention of your fave Hamasaki 22.2 format?
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I checked and it's just DTS:X, no Neural:X, so we're good there, and after running through the demos again, it seems that DTS is more focused on the ambient soundfield and less on the overhead pans and directionality. At least that's what I've gleaned from their demos, and it makes sense for the home format. I listened to those and several of my discs.

In that regard, I think DTS:X works quite well and Ex Machina and Atomic Blonde do a great job. For the Fate of the Furious and Independence Day, I didn't think it did as good of a job with pans and overhead effects as Atmos, though, but that may be more an effect of the sound mixes themselves vs. the tech.

Thanks for all of the input!

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post #3591 of 3946 Old 02-20-2018, 06:59 AM
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@Nalleh @Manni01 @jpco @whitetrash66 @Scott Simonian Hey guys, i was reading through the beginning of this thread, which was in about 2016 from the beginning to about page 30, and tbh i really dont have the patience to continue reading to find the solution. There was a big issue at the time about the DTS:X firmware update, it messed up alot of things, such as you would have to switch the settings from TF and TR to FH and FR in order to get the dts:x soundtrack working properly, but that would mess up the dolby atmos tracks and they wouldn't sound nearly as good. Especially for the overhead sound. And also there was alot of sound leaking into other speakers, i think there was also center channel distortion e.t.c e.t.c There were many problems after the dts:x update. @fbrighi contacted denon on fb and they said they are investigating the issues. So since it's 2018 now i'm hoping it has all been figured out? Can someone please inform me what the solution ended up being? Did denon or someone release a firmware fix or something? Are all problems with dts:x and atmos fixed now on all recieverS? Do atmos and dts:x co-exist nicely now? Can we now use TF and TR for both atmos as well as dts:X?

And also something i was curious about, during that time there was talk about how it was not possible to use neutral x for a dolby soundtrack, and that it was not possible to use DSU for a dts soundtrack. Is that still the case? Or is there more freedom now in using whichever you want on any track?

Thanks
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post #3592 of 3946 Old 02-20-2018, 09:15 AM
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Can we now use TF and TR for both atmos as well as dts:X?

I'd like to know the answer to this too; I have AV7702MkII.



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And also something i was curious about, during that time there was talk about how it was not possible to use neutral x for a dolby soundtrack, and that it was not possible to use DSU for a dts soundtrack. Is that still the case? Or is there more freedom now in using whichever you want on any track?

7702 does it, not sure about other brands/models

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post #3593 of 3946 Old 02-20-2018, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by sahil0909 View Post
Can we now use TF and TR for both atmos as well as dts:X?

I'd like to know the answer to this too; I have AV7702MkII.



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Originally Posted by sahil0909 View Post
And also something i was curious about, during that time there was talk about how it was not possible to use neutral x for a dolby soundtrack, and that it was not possible to use DSU for a dts soundtrack. Is that still the case? Or is there more freedom now in using whichever you want on any track?

7702 does it, not sure about other brands/models
Onkyo RZ920 (2017 model) allows mix and match of up-mixers.

Regarding TF and TR, I have my onkyo setup that way. I always assumed that my onkyo would do the right thing with DTS X if it allowed me to choose a TF/TR configuration.

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post #3594 of 3946 Old 02-20-2018, 11:27 AM
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Regarding TF and TR, I have my onkyo setup that way. I always assumed that my onkyo would do the right thing with DTS X if it allowed me to choose a TF/TR configuration.

My memory is fuzzy, but I believe that was not the case, at least for Marantz.

Not sure if it was fixed by f/w update.

Anyone?

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post #3595 of 3946 Old 02-20-2018, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by sahil0909 View Post
Can we now use TF and TR for both atmos as well as dts:X?
Yup. Note however, that using TF+TR is considered more ideal with Atmos while using FH+RH is more ideal with DTS:X. Making this speaker configuration change on the fly is now much easier (~1 min) with the more current 2016 and newer Denon/Marantz models that are able to use the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app or SAVE to a USB stick. Additionally, those using Auro 3D/AuroMatic will generally just use a FH+RH setup as this can be utilized by all three 3D codecs (Atmos/DTS:X, Auro 3D).

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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I'd like to know the answer to this too; I have AV7702MkII.
You'll note on p. 324 of the AV7702MKII Owner's manual it indicates as such for both Atmos and DTS:X.
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Last edited by jdsmoothie; 02-20-2018 at 11:40 AM.
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post #3596 of 3946 Old 02-20-2018, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Yup. Note however, that using TF+TR is considered more ideal with Atmos while using FH+RH is more ideal with DTS:X. Making this speaker configuration change on the fly is now much easier (~1 min) with the more current 2016 and newer Denon/Marantz models that are able to use the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app or SAVE to a USB stick. Additionally, those using Auro 3D/AuroMatic will generally just use a FH+RH setup as this can be utilized by all three 3D codecs (Atmos/DTS:X, Auro 3D).



You'll note on p. 324 of the AV7702MKII Owner's manual it indicates as such for both Atmos and DTS:X.
jdsmoothie dives in with the great info, as always.

however, that is slightly overselling the speed of the app in uploading info to the AVR - the last time I tried it took nearly 20 minutes (AVR is hardwired and network is gigabit).

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Currently watching on: JVC X790, 106" 0.8 Gain Screen, FireTV Stick 4K, PS4, Oppo 203, w/Marantz SR6011, 2 Outlaw M2200, Outlaw Model 5000, SVS Subs, Def Tech Speakers
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post #3597 of 3946 Old 02-20-2018, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by fredxr2d2 View Post
jdsmoothie dives in with the great info, as always.

however, that is slightly overselling the speed of the app in uploading info to the AVR - the last time I tried it took nearly 20 minutes (AVR is hardwired and network is gigabit).
I'd suggest there is an issue with your network as it only takes about 1-2 minutes for me using either method with an X6300H (7.2.4) setup using the wireless connection to my router.
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post #3598 of 3946 Old 02-20-2018, 12:30 PM
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I don't know about Denon, but Lyngdorf has a remapping option for DTS:

"When enabled -will decode TOP speakers as Height speakers, when in DTS."

With it on, it sounds pretty weird to have fairly loud L/R sounds coming out of the tops. I wonder if some receivers default to this option(or don't have the option to turn it off).

Might explain some negative user experiences with DTS:X/Neural:X.

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post #3599 of 3946 Old 02-20-2018, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
I'd suggest there is an issue with your network as it only takes about 1-2 minutes for me using either method with an X6300H (7.2.4) setup using the wireless connection to my router.
I don't' want to like this post, so I will just say that maybe my GF was doing something else on the network at the same time...

I do remember it going faster when no one else was home.

Always helpful, though, and I appreciate that.

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Currently watching on: JVC X790, 106" 0.8 Gain Screen, FireTV Stick 4K, PS4, Oppo 203, w/Marantz SR6011, 2 Outlaw M2200, Outlaw Model 5000, SVS Subs, Def Tech Speakers
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post #3600 of 3946 Old 02-20-2018, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
You'll note on p. 324 of the AV7702MKII Owner's manual it indicates as such for both Atmos and DTS:X.

Yes, I know it can be configured either way; the question is, with TF/TR configured, are there weird steering effects when using DTS.

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