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post #31 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by LukeSkywalker View Post
DTS Neural:X is much better than the Dolby Surround Upmixer (DSU).
Attached Comparison: First minutes of "Transformers: Age Of Extinction" using DSU and Neural:X - yes, you can also hear the difference!

Best,
Luke
You arrived at this conclusion on the basis of a few minutes of one soundtrack?

EDIT: I have read Noah's more fulsome response now. I thought it was an experiment you had conducted yourself and drawn a quick conclusion, so I apologise for ass-u-ming.

From what the original article says, Neural:X seems to be showing great promise. I do hope so. I'd like to have a choice of two upmixers for immersive audio.

Although Lesmore makes a good point. Do we want accuracy or 'sounds good to me'? It's certain that the Director didn't hear what the magazine reviewer heard, but he (the reviewer) enjoyed it more. Interesting times.
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post #32 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by blackssr View Post
What AVR do you have again? Does it allow for DTS HD+DSU as well as native DTS:X? My Denon 7200 does not allow for this once the upgrade is done. I am not willing to give up DTS HD+DSU until I have more info with regard to how Neural sounds with DTS HD titles. Most of my collection is DTS HD native and love the DSU sound. I would hope DTS Neural would be equally as good.
Remember if you set your player to send PCM you can use Neural:X on Dolby tracks and DSU on DTS tracks if you wish. You’d have to change back to bitstream to play your Atmos content of course.
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post #33 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Could be. Idk, that's why I'd like to hear his response about this.

All it looks like to me is two single mono waveforms. One showing more variation and amplitude compared to the other.

Reading between the lines here, I see that the more exciting looking one would probably be the Neural:X height content compared to the more restrained DSU. I'm guessing. So more is better, I guess.
Of course, more could be worse, if what was being extracted was inappropriate.

EDIT. Although based on that German magazine review, Neural:X is a winner it seems. I hope so. I’d like to see a lot more comparisons and analysis though before coming to a conclusion.

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post #34 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Remember if you set your player to send PCM you can use Neural:X on Dolby tracks and DSU on DTS tracks if you wish. You’d have to change back to bitstream to play your Atmos content of course.
Instead of having to switch back and forth between PCM and bitstream to achieve this purpose, how about adding a lesser featured blu-ray player to the setup to handle PCM duties, and just choose the player of choice for the desired results?
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post #35 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
It's a comparison of height channel amplitude time histories of DSU and DTS Neural X from this article http://www.heise.de/ct/artikel/DTS-X...-3085326.html; the caption is "Upmixer compared: DTS: X Neural (below) adds the opening scene of "Transformers: Age of Extinction" much more than Dolby effects to DSU as the waveform of the left rear height channel shows."

DTS Neural X was the clear winner, at least for Xformers AOE, where it's even way better than native Atmos:

"Almost a classic for Test all-round sound Upmixern is the opening sequence of "Transformers: Age of Extinction": On the Atmos track prevails here on the height channels silence - although spaceships fly into the picture, the camera standing under a waterfall, Dinosaurierer screech, a spaceship small satellite settles and at the end even from behind the right front flying a plane left.

Dolby Upmixer adds this scene actually only a few altitude effects - for example, when the waterfall can be seen. All in all, the result remains unsatisfactory but: When overflight of spaceships continue to do very little, the plane one hears only a little about the height speakers. Therefore, we were curious to see what DTS Neural: X delivers.

In fact, the DTS Upmixer lays neatly away from the first setting: spaceships and aircraft roar now clearly audible from the ceiling speakers. The sounds are not just louder than the DSU, but also clearer. But above all, like the scene with the waterfall: The roar is not only clearly audible, it also migrates to match the camera movement from the left to the right side. DTS Neural: X and DSU can be distinguished easily in a blind test."

This is really exciting if it's as typically effective for other movies; if I had to choose I'd gladly take a good upmixer over the ability to decode native content.



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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Of course, more could be worse, if what was being extracted was inappropriate.

EDIT. Although based on that German magazine review, Neural:X is a winner it seems. I hope so. I’d like to see a lot more comparisons and analysis though before coming to a conclusion.
And really... I'm totally fine with that. If Neural X ends up being better then.... well.... AWESOME! Makes no difference to me which brand does it. I am interested in the best product.

But so far I just see a little graph of a waveform. More amplitude compared to another tells me nothing of it's performance.
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post #36 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Do we want accuracy or 'sounds good to me'?
Hard to gauge "accuracy" with blind upmixers since NONE of the sounds in a legacy soundtrack were intended to come from the height speakers. Still comes down to personal preferences.
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post #37 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Do we want accuracy or 'sounds good to me'?
Both.

It's a sliding scale, imho. Not absolute.
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post #38 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Remember if you set your player to send PCM you can use Neural:X on Dolby tracks and DSU on DTS tracks if you wish. You’d have to change back to bitstream to play your Atmos content of course.
Did your source at Denon, specify what the reason is that the 7200 can not switch it up while bit streaming? Is it a hardware issue? Licensing Issue? or can it be added at a later date via firmware upgrade? This feature I would gladly pay for. It would make A-B testing really easy.

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post #39 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Well, the big difference seems to be, according to JD Smoothie on the other DTS:X thread, that DTS:X is using a channel-based system (due to a limitation in the codec) and not an object-based system, as promised.

After all this delay, DTS still don't have an object based system and are resorting to channels? Like Auro. It is scarcely believable, but JD is a reliable source and he quotes an acknowledged industry insider as his own source.

So in the world of object-based audio, there is still only player: Dolby.



Are you serious when did this happen So basically its not DTS:X (glorified Neo ?) This will make the comparison point moot as Atmos is the true Advanced Codec (object based) here and as far as I'm concerned the defacto standard , the rest is more like a condiment bar ,so top it off with what ever you want (preference) I'm so hurt now! I'm more hesitant about updating my unit now!
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post #40 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 10:13 AM
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post #41 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
It's a comparison of height channel amplitude time histories of DSU and DTS Neural X from this article http://www.heise.de/ct/artikel/DTS-X...-3085326.html; the caption is "Upmixer compared: DTS: X Neural (below) adds the opening scene of "Transformers: Age of Extinction" much more than Dolby effects to DSU as the waveform of the left rear height channel shows."

DTS Neural X was the clear winner, at least for Xformers AOE, where it's even way better than native Atmos:
What I'm taking from this comparison is that Neural:X drew more sounds to the heights than DSU.

Which is good, I guess? Because more is always better?

Were the sounds it drew to the heights appropriate? I certainly don't want to hear dialogue in the heights, for example. I'm not saying that happened here, but I think we need more than one article from one person who compared one scene in one movie before it's safe to draw any conclusions.

I'm reminded of the use of Wide channels in Audyssey DSX vs. DTS Neo:X. Audyssey draws a lot more sounds to those speakers, but is widely regarded to be inferior because it pulls too much inappropriate audio there and is distracting.

Perhaps a more appropriate analogy here would be to the Auromatic upmixer, which simply duplicates the entire ground-level channel in the heights, reduced in volume a little and with some reverb added. Is that all Neural:X is doing?

Maybe not. I'm not trying to lay accusations here. I don't have a DTS:X capable receiver. I'd just like to see a whole lot more testing done before I'll be convinced to upgrade my gear.
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post #42 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 10:35 AM
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post #43 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 10:54 AM
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What I'm taking from this comparison is that Neural:X drew more sounds to the heights than DSU.

Which is good, I guess? Because more is always better?

Were the sounds it drew to the heights appropriate? I certainly don't want to hear dialogue in the heights, for example. I'm not saying that happened here, but I think we need more than one article from one person who compared one scene in one movie before it's safe to draw any conclusions.

I'm reminded of the use of Wide channels in Audyssey DSX vs. DTS Neo:X. Audyssey draws a lot more sounds to those speakers, but is widely regarded to be inferior because it pulls too much inappropriate audio there and is distracting.

Perhaps a more appropriate analogy here would be to the Auromatic upmixer, which simply duplicates the entire ground-level channel in the heights, reduced in volume a little and with some reverb added. Is that all Neural:X is doing?

Maybe not. I'm not trying to lay accusations here. I don't have a DTS:X capable receiver. I'd just like to see a whole lot more testing done before I'll be convinced to upgrade my gear.
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Exactly. Well said.
I sure hate being a "Debbie Downer" but is what I'm thinking as well , I never did the DTS Neo:X or Audyssey DSX based on how they worked as I saw no interest in having sounds distracting me from what's on the screen. I think you guys are on the right track on this and time and more listening evaluations are due! I'm hoping it doesn't come down to DTS:X being more like Auro rather than Atmos but hey at least its free and not an upcharge.
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post #44 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 11:00 AM
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I'll be interested to try out Neural X when I get the update for the Yamaha.

It's just that posting a graph showing that the DTS upmixer is louder or has more content in the heights means nothing. Tells us nothing. More signal doesn't mean "better" automatically just like that.

Only listening tests can approve a surround processor. Nothing else.
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post #45 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
I'll be interested to try out Neural X when I get the update for the Yamaha.

It's just that posting a graph showing that the DTS upmixer is louder or has more content in the heights means nothing. Tells us nothing. More signal doesn't mean "better" automatically just like that.

Only listening tests can approve a surround processor. Nothing else.
I need more info before Feb 4th as I'd hate to loose DSU+DTS MA for just a duplicated height layer as I already have it with DSU. Louder and more misplaced signal info above is not what I'm after and rather like DSU's subtle touch to way it places just a kiss of extraction above
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post #46 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 11:06 AM
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Then wait. Nobody is forcing you to do the update. Just wait and see what people say. When you're comfortable then do the update.

It's not certain if even Yamaha products will retain the ability to apply DSU to DTS-HD MA encodes with their DTS:X update. I'd be pretty apprehensive about updating it, myself, if that is the case.
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post #47 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 11:24 AM
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Then wait. Nobody is forcing you to do the update. Just wait and see what people say. When you're comfortable then do the update.

It's not certain if even Yamaha products will retain the ability to apply DSU to DTS-HD MA encodes with their DTS:X update. I'd be pretty apprehensive about updating it, myself, if that is the case.
Are you kidding me!The little guy inside me that's been waiting a year for this says "you are doing this asap right"! He's swayed me into doing things before as his peer pressure has gravitas
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post #48 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 11:26 AM
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Hey, I waited a full year to get into Atmos. All better for the wait.

It's your choice though.
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
It's a comparison of height channel amplitude time histories of DSU and DTS Neural X from this article
http://www.heise.de/ct/artikel/DTS-X...-3085326.html; the caption is "Upmixer compared: DTS: X Neural (below) adds the opening scene of "Transformers: Age of Extinction" much more than Dolby effects to DSU as the waveform of the left rear height channel shows."

DTS Neural X was the clear winner, at least for Xformers AOE, where it's even way better than native Atmos:

"Almost a classic for Test all-round sound Upmixern is the opening sequence of "Transformers: Age of Extinction": On the Atmos track prevails here on the height channels silence - although spaceships fly into the picture, the camera standing under a waterfall, Dinosaurierer screech, a spaceship small satellite settles and at the end even from behind the right front flying a plane left.

Dolby Upmixer adds this scene actually only a few altitude effects - for example, when the waterfall can be seen. All in all, the result remains unsatisfactory but: When overflight of spaceships continue to do very little, the plane one hears only a little about the height speakers. Therefore, we were curious to see what DTS Neural: X delivers.

In fact, the DTS Upmixer lays neatly away from the first setting: spaceships and aircraft roar now clearly audible from the ceiling speakers. The sounds are not just louder than the DSU, but also clearer. But above all, like the scene with the waterfall: The roar is not only clearly audible, it also migrates to match the camera movement from the left to the right side. DTS Neural: X and DSU can be distinguished easily in a blind test."

This is really exciting if it's as typically effective for other movies; if I had to choose I'd gladly take a good upmixer over the ability to decode native content.
The link above says: 404 Not Found

________

* Test: http://www.heise.de/ct/artikel/DTS-X...t-3085326.html

Fixed.

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post #50 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 11:37 AM
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Now the hunt begins for the DTS:X demos..


Thankfully this guy scored a demo disc a while back. Waiting to see how much dust I have to blow off of it by the time Yamaha releases the update in (hopefully) March as claimed.

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post #51 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 11:46 AM
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Thankfully this guy scored a demo disc a while back. Waiting to see how much dust I have to blow off of it by the time Yamaha releases the update in (hopefully) March as claimed.
March is way too far..

I want it NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
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Lightbulb DTS:X (Native) & DTS Neural:X (Up-mixer)

Quote:
I'll be interested to try out Neural X when I get the update for the Yamaha.
It's just that posting a graph showing that the DTS upmixer is louder or has more content in the heights means nothing.
Tells us nothing. More signal doesn't mean "better" automatically just like that.

Only listening tests can approve a surround processor. Nothing else.
Exactly indeed, but it's much more than that as Nalleh,
and other members have already described how DTS:X and DTS Neural:X sound marvelous...from their EARS...in their own setup rooms.

___________

Question:

Is DTS:X object rendition based, or not? ...Channel based?
Does it really matter? Is sound quality immersion the ultimate goal?

And, is it not supporting Wides as is Neural:X up-mixer as well, as opposed to the erroneous claim presented before?
We now know that it does support Wides, for both DTS:X Native and DTS Neural:X Up-mixer.
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post #53 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 11:55 AM
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Exactly indeed, but it's much more than that as Nalleh,
and other members have already described how DTS:X and DTS Neural:X sound marvelous...from their EARS...in their own setup rooms.
Right. That's why I'm interested (at this point) in what people actually think of Neural X compared to DSU. Posting a graph of a single waveform tells us NOTHING.

___________
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Question:

Is DTS:X object rendition based, or not? ...Channel based?

Umm...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Does it really matter?
Of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Is sound quality immersion the ultimate goal?
Of course.


Ugh. I got all pink in there.
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post #54 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 11:57 AM
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I'll be interested to try out Neural X when I get the update for the Yamaha.
Any word on when the update will be available?
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post #55 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 11:59 AM
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Any word on when the update will be available?
It was mentioned in an official press release from Yamaha that March is our month.
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It was mentioned in an official press release from Yamaha that March is our month.
March is unacceptable...

I can't sit and watch other people enjoy their gadget!!!!
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post #57 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 12:06 PM
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It was mentioned in an official press release from Yamaha that March is our month.
I can wait til March. No problem. I suspect I won't notice much difference between the 2 anyway.
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post #58 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 12:14 PM
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Hard to gauge "accuracy" with blind upmixers since NONE of the sounds in a legacy soundtrack were intended to come from the height speakers. Still comes down to personal preferences.
How do you know what was intended unless you saw it in a ATMOS movie theater? If someone could comment on that it would help to decide what was intended. Going by a home video release isn't necessarily what the director intended. The audio mix for the home release could've been done differently or even botched (in the ATMOS implementation).

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post #59 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 12:34 PM
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Instead of knocking the original post of the waveform take it for what it is, a piece of information. I don't think it tells us "NOTHING". It certainly shows there is more going on in the DTS track than Dolby (and the link says as much). I liken it to all those low frequency bass plots with different colors for intensity. Do they tell us NOTHING also? It's information we can use to investigate ourselves and go listen to those releases to see what we think of them.
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post #60 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 12:36 PM
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is DTS:X for real and really coming out???

I'm holding out on buying new Atmos enabled AVR until I know for sure whether i should make sure it has DTS:X capability as well. Make sense or what?? thanks
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