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post #61 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Movie78 View Post
March is unacceptable...

I can't there and watch other people enjoy!!!!
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I can wait til March. No problem. I suspect I won't notice much difference between the 2 anyway.
I can definitely wait. It's less than two months wait anyway.

I'm more interested in whether the Yamaha retains DSU with DTS tracks or not with the forthcoming update.
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post #62 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 12:56 PM
 
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Arrow dts:X & dts Neural:X

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I'm more interested in whether the Yamaha retains DSU with DTS tracks or not with the forthcoming update.
Yes, and same with Onkyo/Integra and Pioneer and Anthem and Arcam and AudioControl and Trinnov Altitude (JBL Synthesis) and Datasat and Steinway Lyngdorf and Barco (IOSONO) as well. ...DTS Neural:X applicable on DD (DD+, Dolby TrueHD) soundtracks or not? ...And vice versa with DSU.
...Cross-pollination of sound up-mixers. ...Like Auro-Matic 2D and 3D applicable with all D THD and DTS-HD MA audio soundtracks and all their relatives.
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post #63 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 01:06 PM
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I've been trying to find a definitive answer
is DTS:X channel based or object based.
Be interested in reading JD's post ( Who I have great faith in ) but I cant seem to find it,would appreciate a link.
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post #64 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 01:30 PM
 
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The DTS:X white papers would be the official standards.
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post #65 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
At the end of the day are we not trying to hear what the director/ mixer intended rather than preference.
To each his own, but for me it's about entertainment, not a religious adherence to an ideal.

Regarding all the negative questioning, what is it about the below previously quoted statement that's unclear?

"In fact, the DTS Upmixer lays neatly away from the first setting: spaceships and aircraft roar now clearly audible from the ceiling speakers. The sounds are not just louder than the DSU, but also clearer. But above all, like the scene with the waterfall: The roar is not only clearly audible, it also migrates to match the camera movement from the left to the right side."

It remains to be seen if this is typical performance or a lucky break, but so far I don't recollect seeing any negative reactions.
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post #66 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
To each his own, but for me it's about entertainment, not a religious adherence to an ideal.

Regarding all the negative questioning, what is it about the below previously quoted statement that's unclear?

"In fact, the DTS Upmixer lays neatly away from the first setting: spaceships and aircraft roar now clearly audible from the ceiling speakers. The sounds are not just louder than the DSU, but also clearer. But above all, like the scene with the waterfall: The roar is not only clearly audible, it also migrates to match the camera movement from the left to the right side."

It remains to be seen if this is typical performance or a lucky break, but so far I don't recollect seeing any negative reactions.
Both can indeed co-exist, I want to here it as faithful to the source as allowed and should I from there decide to add a little or take a little away, then I'd like that option as well!
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post #67 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
I've been trying to find a definitive answer
is DTS:X channel based or object based.
Be interested in reading JD's post ( Who I have great faith in ) but I cant seem to find it,would appreciate a link.
That's what I want to know
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post #68 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
I need more info before Feb 4th as I'd hate to loose DSU+DTS MA for just a duplicated height layer as I already have it with DSU. Louder and more misplaced signal info above is not what I'm after and rather like DSU's subtle touch to way it places just a kiss of extraction above
There'll be no waiting, sir. Feb. 4th at 12:01am operation X will commence.
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post #69 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 02:33 PM
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There'll be no waiting, sir. Feb. 4th at 12:01am operation X will commence.
But Sir! Its that cold feet thing again like I had sending it off for the Hdmi board upgrade,only this time I'm seriously thinking of going AWOL


go a-wall
spoken A-Wall the real term is AWOL(Absent Without Official Leave)- it means leaving your post and not returning in the Military
Taking leave and not showing up when ordered
"Don't go a-wall soldier"
often heard in military videogames

This is no game Sir!
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post #70 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 02:34 PM
 
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To each his own, but for me it's about entertainment, not a religious adherence to an ideal.

Regarding all the negative questioning, what is it about the below previously quoted statement that's unclear?

"In fact, the DTS Upmixer lays neatly away from the first setting: spaceships and aircraft roar now clearly audible from the ceiling speakers. The sounds are not just louder than the DSU, but also clearer. But above all, like the scene with the waterfall: The roar is not only clearly audible, it also migrates to match the camera movement from the left to the right side.".
I agree, entirely.
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post #71 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by blackssr View Post
Did your source at Denon, specify what the reason is that the 7200 can not switch it up while bit streaming? Is it a hardware issue? Licensing Issue? or can it be added at a later date via firmware upgrade? This feature I would gladly pay for. It would make A-B testing really easy.
Here is my GUESS as to why this could be a problem.

From what I understand, the way the object audio is packed into the carrier is a deep part of the actual codec. The upmixer and renderer are all part of a routine running on the DSP chip. It has to break out the lossless audio into the 7.1 PCM before it can apply the upmixing. So let's say you have a computer that can open certain types of files and display them in Linux or Windows. Maybe the best format for the Linux setup has it's data on an EXT-2 formatted drive. It can open it and use all of it's tools and make the best use of the data. And can display it all correctly. Now you can also open and display a different type of file on a Windows system, stored on an NTFS drive and using a different type of packing. This system can also use all of it's tools on this data and display it properly. Both systems offer a lot of options on what to do with it's type of file, but they don't see each other. Before the update, there was room for a program on the "L" system to open the other file and make it so you could manipulate it and display it. Now you add all these new features to the "W" system and it takes a lot more resources to be able to run. The programs get too big to stay resident all the time, so if it has Brand "L" code running, it can open that file format and use the data and display, but not the Brand "W" anymore. When you switch modes, which may only take a second to swap out some code in the DSP ram, now it can open and manipulate the "W" type of file and and manipulate display that data, but it had to stop the code that could see the "L" style data. Both types of code have the ability to play a raw format, let's say a drive formatted FAT-32 (our stand in for PCM) to keep the computer file analogy going. This will let either run a simpler type of file with less information, but they can both do some manipulation and display the data, and even do some up mixing from it.

I may be totally wrong, but knowing that the codec to retrive the PCM out of the lossless codec is not a small task would actually explain why you can't be running both types of code at the same time. When you split it up and have the Blu Ray player strip it out to plain old PCM, now it can see the basic raw data and process it any way you like. This does not look political or trying to hose you, I think it might just be the only way they were able to jam all the code into the DSP in the AVR's. It is possible that future AVR's that have some more DSP power and memory just might be able to read the other codec and apply their upmixing, but at this point, just go to PCM when you need to do that.

I really think it is a non issue. If you are comparing native immersive audio,you have to change the player settings or even the disk and there is no content at this time coded in both formats to be able to do a true A/B comparison in the bit stream world. To do A/B comparisons of the upmixer, you just put the player in PCM, no big deal.
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post #72 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
I'll be interested to try out Neural X when I get the update for the Yamaha.

It's just that posting a graph showing that the DTS upmixer is louder or has more content in the heights means nothing. Tells us nothing. More signal doesn't mean "better" automatically just like that.

Only listening tests can approve a surround processor. Nothing else.

I think it's pretty plainly obvious that they are just using the graph to show how much more really is being thrown up there as a way to support the difference in sound they are hearing. It's not like they're saying "look more sound, it be better" with no context.
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post #73 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Contuzzi View Post
It's not like they're saying "look more sound, it be better" with no context.
Actually...

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Originally Posted by LukeSkywalker View Post
DTS Neural:X is much better than the Dolby Surround Upmixer (DSU).

Sooo.... really, he IS pretty much just saying "look more sound, it be better". The context is plainly clear that he came to that conclusion with displaying a few minutes from one movie.

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post #74 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 03:17 PM
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Regarding all the negative questioning, what is it about the below previously quoted statement that's unclear?
Unclear how the subjective preference of a reviewer can be touted as a demonstration of objective superiority.
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post #75 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 03:23 PM
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Now the hunt begins for the DTS:X demos..
See Dolby Atmos demos....

I wonder if DTS will take the same non responsive approach that Dolby Laboratories has regarding demo material. Off loading this function to an ineffective channel doesn't serve Dolby, IMHO, but there are a lot of posters on the AVS Forums that believe this is an acceptable practice and doesn't hurt Dolby at all.

I'd like to see DTS provide a much easier path to hear DTS:X & Neural X examples. If I were in DTS Marketing - - that's what I'd do. Since DTS:X was late to the game (just now providing the firmware upgrades) - - I'd do as much as I could to promote DTS:X /Neural X.

Then again, I'm old school. I like to make it easy for my prospects & customers to understand my product/benefit/value proposition and get it into their hands hassle free.

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post #76 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 03:27 PM
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If the 2016 DTS:X demo disk is anything like the 2015 disk.... you aren't missing much.
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post #77 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
I've been trying to find a definitive answer
is DTS:X channel based or object based.
Be interested in reading JD's post ( Who I have great faith in ) but I cant seem to find it,would appreciate a link.
Here's what I've dug up from the DTS web site and don't see were they've changed anything and with that (it being "Object based") I'm first on Feb 4th

http://www.dts.com/corporate/press-r...ch-hunter.aspx


This was taken from there post on "The Last Witch Hunter"

Quote:
ABOUT DTS:X™
DTS:X is the next generation object-based, multi-dimensional audio technology from DTS. Unbound from channels, DTS:X conveys the fluid movement of sound to create an incredibly rich, realistic and immersive soundscape - in front of, behind, beside and above the audience - more accurately than ever before. DTS:X offers the ability to automatically adapt the audio to the speaker layout that best fits the space, from a television’s built-in speakers to a home surround theater system to a dozen or more speakers in a commercial cinema. With DTS technology, even the smallest screens will sound huge. Immerse yourself at www.dts.com/dtsx.
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post #78 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 03:48 PM
 
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Yes, dts from their website said that dts:X is object-based.

Now, the two previous released BR dts:X titles...were they object or channel-based encoded?

Last edited by NorthSky; 01-29-2016 at 03:51 PM.
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post #79 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 03:53 PM
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So I'm guessing with the restrictions of using upmixers on opposing signals will mean that I can't use Neural:X on my cable/streaming content? I don't believe there's a way to convert either into 5.1LPCM, unless I am blind but I know how to access the system operated menus on the STB and I think streaming apps only support DD5.1 regardless.

Another query; does the same rule with turning bitstream on and to disable secondary audio apply to X as well, or can we push LPCM and the 11.1 info is still relayed the proper way?

I'd like some answers to those questions. I am curious also to see if the other Mfrs who aren't Denon/Marantz disable cross pollination as well. I mean it's too late as I already have and love my 7010, but I am one of the guys that like ACTIVE TOPS (Goosebumps <3 ) and if Neural:X is going to give me that, then I'll be pretty sore that I can't use it for my DVR shows or streaming apps material.
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post #80 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
Here's what I've dug up from the DTS web site and don't see were they've changed anything and with that (it being "Object based") I'm first on Feb 4th

http://www.dts.com/corporate/press-r...ch-hunter.aspx


This was taken from there post on "The Last Witch Hunter"



Many thanks Audiofan
That statement seems clear enough re objects

I am still confused because as I am sure you will agree JD is a reputable source of information,I would still like a link to read his post.

In any case I am going to update tonight, as whatever DTS does or doesn't do that is what we are getting so just go with it.

The review of neural:X whatever the right or wrong of the mix sounds impressive and I was always a fan of Neo:X in fact it was always my default selection.
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post #81 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
Many thanks Audiofan
That statement seems clear enough re objects

I am still confused because as I am sure you will agree JD is a reputable source of information,I would still like a link to read his post.

In any case I am going to update tonight, as whatever DTS does or doesn't do that is what we are getting so just go with it.

The review of neural:X whatever the right or wrong of the mix sounds impressive and I was always a fan of Neo:X in fact it was always my default selection.
Indeed my friend May as well get on with it! I'll be there with you come Thursday, I'm looking forward to your impressions as yours is an opinion I value
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post #82 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 04:19 PM
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Indeed my friend May as well get on with it! I'll be there with you come Thursday, I'm looking forward to your impressions as yours is an opinion I value
That's very kind of you to say
I don't think there is many would agree though

Will feedback my view whether positive or negative
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post #83 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 04:58 PM
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May as well get on with it! I'll be there with you come Thursday.
I had a feeling you'd be back on board with operation X. Resistance is futile.
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post #84 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 05:07 PM
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I had a feeling you'd be back on board with operation X. Resistance is futile.
Yeah! Looks like the operation has a better chance of success Thanks for talking me off the ledge,hallmarks of a true "Lodge" leader
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post #85 of 4009 Old 01-29-2016, 05:58 PM
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I had a feeling you'd be back on board with operation X. Resistance is futile.
Is that the urban dictionary definition of the word "Operation X"?
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post #86 of 4009 Old 01-30-2016, 12:01 AM
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So I'm guessing with the restrictions of using upmixers on opposing signals will mean that I can't use Neural:X on my cable/streaming content? I don't believe there's a way to convert either into 5.1LPCM, unless I am blind but I know how to access the system operated menus on the STB and I think streaming apps only support DD5.1 regardless.

Another query; does the same rule with turning bitstream on and to disable secondary audio apply to X as well, or can we push LPCM and the 11.1 info is still relayed the proper way?

I'd like some answers to those questions. I am curious also to see if the other Mfrs who aren't Denon/Marantz disable cross pollination as well. I mean it's too late as I already have and love my 7010, but I am one of the guys that like ACTIVE TOPS (Goosebumps <3 ) and if Neural:X is going to give me that, then I'll be pretty sore that I can't use it for my DVR shows or streaming apps material.
Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only source you'll have problems with is BR players Computers and Gaming Consoles, aren't most other sources already PCM by default, and don't even offer bitstream as an option. As long as it's been compressed, you should be able to use any platform.

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post #87 of 4009 Old 01-30-2016, 12:43 AM
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Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only source you'll have problems with is BR players Computers and Gaming Consoles, aren't most other sources already PCM by default, and don't even offer bitstream as an option. As long as it's been compressed, you should be able to use any platform.
Er ... uncompressed.
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post #88 of 4009 Old 01-30-2016, 02:30 AM
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Hard to gauge "accuracy" with blind upmixers since NONE of the sounds in a legacy soundtrack were intended to come from the height speakers. Still comes down to personal preferences.
Agreed. By definition, upmixing to speakers not present when the content was mixed can never, by definition, be accurate to the mix.

This feeds into the report from the German magazine that they preferred T4 upmixed with Neural X than played 'as intended' in real Atmos. I suspect many others will share that preference too. If one is seeking an exciting, involving home theater experience, then why not upmix with Neural X if it excites and involves more than the native Atmos?

If one is trying to reproduce "what the mixer heard" (which I think is a futile pursuit) then one can always play it in Atmos. Similarly though, this would mean the latter camp would always play their native 5.1 in 5.1 and their native 7.1 in 7.1, ignoring the upmixers altogether. How many people will do that after having paid for and installed extra speakers? Not many would be my guess.
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post #89 of 4009 Old 01-30-2016, 02:32 AM
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Both.

It's a sliding scale, imho. Not absolute.
If you want accuracy to the original intent, then you'd have to ignore your overhead speakers for 99% of all your movies (which are in 5.1, with a small number in 7.1). Who really is going to do that? Almost nobody IMO, so it boils down really to 'preference' for almost everyone, almost all the time.
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post #90 of 4009 Old 01-30-2016, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackssr View Post
Did your source at Denon, specify what the reason is that the 7200 can not switch it up while bit streaming? Is it a hardware issue? Licensing Issue? or can it be added at a later date via firmware upgrade? This feature I would gladly pay for. It would make A-B testing really easy.
Yes he did. However I am not sure if I am allowed to discuss it publicly since the information may have been provided in confidence. Sorry. I think I can say that Denon would like to resolve the issue, but whether they will or not is uncertain, since the relentless pressure of year-on-year new model releases means that allocating resources to discontinued models may be commercially problematic.
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