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post #2371 of 4119 Old 08-07-2016, 01:50 PM
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First I tried DD+ & DTS, then just DD+. Both were the same as in the picture. Maybe it's Vudu or this version of Pacific Rim Ultra HD. I'm watching Enemy at the gates on Demand from HBO through my Hopper 3 and it has Dolby D 3/2 on the Anthem.

I'll keep trying. I ordered Sicario, the Martian, and Revenant UHD disks and have a Samsung 8500 coming so we'll see then.
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post #2372 of 4119 Old 08-07-2016, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Though sonically, excellent I'm unsure of where Datasat will end up.

I sold early as I could see the value plummeting in the event DTS doesn't come to be or is significantly delayed. When I sold it, it was the only one I saw on the Internet for sale in the USA and Europe, and it sold fast. Now there are quite a new for sale in the USA and Europe. That could mean anything...

Maybe not publicly. I checked a few obvious websites beyond the A/V classifieds, including a certain forum frequented by Brits, and there were only about two or three used Datasats for sale this year other than the one you sold before you upgraded to the Altitude. That's not to say that there aren't more private sales of used equipment through dealers, of course.

However, I think your general point is well taken. Datasat's falling into being a niche product with a head-start due to prominent trade reviews, an established dealer network, and the brand name, falling somewhere between the more expensive four figure processors and Trinnov in terms of overall utility. That's especially true IMO with the MiniDSPs offering Dirac Live combined with bass management. If they stay in the 11 channel DSP world for Atmos and don't offer DTS:X even at parity with, say, Denon, they'll lose that advantage in the high-end market and become more of a legacy brand. Meaning that Trinnov will stay on an island with > 11 independent channel processing WRT Atmos (and > 11 channel processing for DTS:X if and when that happens) for the forseeable future.

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post #2373 of 4119 Old 08-07-2016, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
That magazine has had an anti-Dolby bias since the days of laserdisc (two decades ago). It's never a surprise when they find everything (Auro, DTS, whatever) better sounding than Dolby.

Said with true understatement..

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post #2374 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 06:18 AM
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Sorry if this has already been discussed, I have searched both DTS:X threads and also the DTS website, and have been unable to find a DTS white paper discussing the speaker layouts for DTS:X.

Does anyone have a link, or can point me to the appropriate post if this has already been posted? Thanks.
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post #2375 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 06:28 AM
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^ Sanjay (sdurani) posted a DTS:X speaker layout about 3 pages ago. At work or I would hunt it down for you. Have you tried an AVS search and/or Google?

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post #2376 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
^ Sanjay (sdurani) posted a DTS:X speaker layout about 3 pages ago. At work or I would hunt it down for you. Have you tried an AVS search and/or Google?
Found it - though that is just a image rather than a comprehensive white paper like the one provided by Dolby, but thanks for pointing me to it, it is a good starting point.

Yes, I've tried both, Google drew a complete blank for me, as did multiple searches of both DTS threads. As for the DTS website, that couldn't be a greater shining example of marketing smoke and mirrors if it wanted to be!
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post #2377 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Found it - though that is just a image rather than a comprehensive white paper like the one provided by Dolby, but thanks for pointing me to it, it is a good starting point.
No comprehensive install guide, but once you know the rendering assumptions (azimuth & elevation for all the speaker locations), what more would you need?

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post #2378 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
No comprehensive install guide, but once you know the rendering assumptions (azimuth & elevation for all the speaker locations), what more would you need?
It's those that I don't have Sanjay, do you have them?
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post #2379 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
It's those that I don't have Sanjay, do you have them?
Check out the DTS:X slides at the following link: http://58.64.214.132/wordpress/?p=92868

As with Atmos, there are two layers of speakers above the listeners: Heights and Tops. All 8 Heights all are evenly spaced on a ring at 45° elevation, all 4 Tops are evenly spaced on a ring at 60° elevation. I guess VOG can be considered a third layer, at 90° elevation.

The diagram of all 30 speaker locations shows the actual azimuth of each speaker (i.e., if the speaker in the diagram is 30° from centre, then it's DTS:X rendering assumption really is 30° azimuth).

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post #2380 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Check out the DTS:X slides at the following link: http://58.64.214.132/wordpress/?p=92868

As with Atmos, there are two layers of speakers above the listeners: Heights and Tops. All 8 Heights all are evenly spaced on a ring at 45° elevation, all 4 Tops are evenly spaced on a ring at 60° elevation. I guess VOG can be considered a third layer, at 90° elevation.

The diagram of all 30 speaker locations shows the actual azimuth of each speaker (i.e., if the speaker in the diagram is 30° from centre, then it's DTS:X rendering assumption really is 30° azimuth).
OK, thanks for that Sanjay. Whilst I understand they aren't available yet in the consumer space, do we know the azimuth angles for other speakers (i.e. those in the non-9.1.4 positions)?



Ls/Rs I would assume are +/- 120 degrees?

Lc/Rc at +/- 15 degrees?

and Cb, what is that?

Lb/Rb at +/- 45 degrees? (what does the 'b' stand for?)

- are we safe to assume the elevation angle for all the above is zero also (i.e. same vertical plane as the LCR)? Unless that 'b' stands for base/bottom and they are some sort of floor mount positions?
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post #2381 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Ls/Rs I would assume are +/- 120 degrees?
Yup, even spacing:
Side = 90
Surround = 120
Rear = 150
Centre Rear = 180

Don't know if those were all intended to be used together, though they probably could eventually. Seems more like you pick the ones that apply to your layout: e.g., 5.1 uses Surrounds, 6.1 makes use of Centre Rear, 7.1 uses Sides & Rears.
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Lc/Rc at +/- 15 degrees?
Yes.
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and Cb, what is that?

Lb/Rb at +/- 45 degrees? (what does the 'b' stand for?)
Below or Bottom; at -30° elevation. Correct on the azimuth.
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- are we safe to assume the elevation angle for all the above is zero also (i.e. same vertical plane as the LCR)?
Says that explicitly in the link I posted earlier.

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post #2382 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 09:23 AM
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Here you go:

HEIGHT



TOP
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post #2383 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Yup, even spacing:
Side = 90
Surround = 120
Rear = 150
Centre Rear = 180

Don't know if those were all intended to be used together, though they probably could eventually. Seems more like you pick the ones that apply to your layout: e.g., 5.1 uses Surrounds, 6.1 makes use of Centre Rear, 7.1 uses Sides & Rears.
Yes.
Below or Bottom; at -30° elevation. Correct on the azimuth. Says that explicitly in the link I posted earlier.
Thanks Sanjay - yes, I was thinking more toward future extended higher speaker count use of DTS:X, rather than the current implementation, so hopefully all zero elevation speakers might be useable at once at a future date, especially since they tie in nicely with Atmos positions - difficult to see those 'bottom' speakers ever making it into the home though, but never say 'never' I guess .
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post #2384 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Thanks Sanjay - yes, I was thinking more toward future extended higher speaker count use of DTS:X, rather than the current implementation, so hopefully all zero elevation speakers might be useable at once at a future date, especially since they tie in nicely with Atmos positions - difficult to see those 'bottom' speakers ever making it into the home though, but never say 'never' I guess .
Except with Trinnov Altitude, that is, which is still oriented toward a (high-end) home theatre rather than commercial cinema per se and could be updated by software update if the need ever arose. But even there it's a matter of diminishing returns. You might find someone using screen speakers between the left and right mains or a pair of "wides" speakers alongside side surround and rear surrounds for an Atmos application, but how many Altitude users go beyond that for zero-elevation speakers?

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post #2385 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I was thinking more toward future extended higher speaker count use of DTS:X, rather than the current implementation, so hopefully all zero elevation speakers might be useable at once at a future date, especially since they tie in nicely with Atmos positions...
The main 7 speakers and 4 (maybe 6) of the heights do tie in nicely; well, close enough that one layout can be used for both formats. The bigger differences in the extended speakers are: DTS:X has 2 speakers between the L/C/R (Lc, Rc) while Atmos has 4 speakers between their L/C/R; DTS:X Wides split the gap between their Fronts & Sides while Atmos Wides are the next speaker over from the Fronts.
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...difficult to see those 'bottom' speakers ever making it into the home though, but never say 'never' I guess .
To get a sense of where they would go in your room: IF your ears are 1m off the floor, then the Cb would be on the floor roughly 1.75m forward of you while Lb & Rb would spread out be on a line 1.25m forward of you.

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post #2386 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Atmos has 4 speakers between their L/C/R
Sanjay, you keep saying this. I'm not seeing FOUR speakers between the LCR. Just two.

The left and right are designated as 30 degrees with the center as 0 degrees. The slices are all 15 degrees, IIRC. That would be a pair at 15 degress (screen center L&R).

Then there could be a pair at 45 degrees but then the wides don't come in til 60 degrees.

What am I missing, brosky?
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post #2387 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Except with Trinnov Altitude
A what?

What is this fictional creation, Stuart? Do you own one?













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post #2388 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
I'm not seeing FOUR speakers between the LCR. Just two.
Count the number of speakers from L to R.




Count the number of speakers on the front wall.



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post #2389 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Thanks Sanjay - yes, I was thinking more toward future extended higher speaker count use of DTS:X, rather than the current implementation, so hopefully all zero elevation speakers might be useable at once at a future date, especially since they tie in nicely with Atmos positions - difficult to see those 'bottom' speakers ever making it into the home though, but never say 'never' I guess.

This NHK-JEITA 8KSHV TV exhibit at CEATEC Japan 2012 appears intended to show the feasibility of including an SHV display plus 22.x speakers in an "average family living room" circa 2020. Note that the 22.x speaker config at the show is a DSP processing variation from the nominal Hamasaki 22.x layout occasioned by the need to apply Dialogue Lift compensation consequent to use of a direct view display . . . and the missing ceiling! The Bottom Front Center speaker has been omitted likely because the ((Middle) Front) Center speaker is slightly below eye|ear level, but the Bottom Front Left|Right speakers are in their nominal locations (Bottom Front Right speaker visible on floor in photo).




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post #2390 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Count the number of speakers from L to R.




Count the number of speakers on the front wall.



Rrriiigggghhhtttt.

So... take another look. The first picture shows the L&R at 45 degrees not 30. Also the last picture shows only two screen center channels labeled as 11 and 12.

Last edited by Scott Simonian; 08-08-2016 at 10:55 AM.
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post #2391 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 10:55 AM
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I mean... I'm ALL for having our L&R at 45 degrees instead of 30...

Definitely don't need wides if that were the case.
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post #2392 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 11:02 AM
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You win Scott: for you, consumer Atmos has only 2 speaker locations between the L/C/R. Ignore the pics I posted.

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post #2393 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 11:11 AM
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Dude.... I'm not trying to "win" anything.

Are front L&R not supposed to be at 30 degrees instead of 45 degrees?

If anything, "ignore" the labels that say those are L&R when they should be one position forward with wides being at 60 degrees.


Unless things have changed yet once again and you're holding out on all of us.
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post #2394 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Are front L&R not supposed to be at 30 degrees instead of 45 degrees?
Sit further back, they'll be at 30 degrees.
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Unless things have changed yet once again and you're holding out on all of us.
The Dolby diagram is from their very first install guide 2 years ago. It's not new. The speaker locations haven't changed.

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post #2395 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 11:34 AM
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post #2396 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
It's not automatic on the Yamaha, Bob. You have to setup two patterns (total system config). One for TOP. One for HEIGHT. Then you have to make two scenes to recall these patterns. Only then do you still have to manually select these scenes.
Can you change scenes from the remote, 1 button click? I'm thinking of returning my X4200 (has a loose screw inside anyways) and getting an A2050.
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post #2397 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Are front L&R not supposed to be at 30 degrees instead of 45 degrees?

The question becomes more complicated when viewers sit closer than 1.5 screen heights from the display ("closest for 4k"--screen azimuthal span approx 55 degrees) and sit somewhere between 0.75 and 1.5 screen heights from the display to watch 8K content--screen azimuthal span up to 100+ degrees. The Left|Right Main channel content still needs to be delivered 'outside' the edges of the screen, even though the current usual names for those speaker positions are Left|Right Wides. One solution to this is the Left|Right Center (Lc|Rc) speakers we've seen suggested for the last decade. Another newer strategy involves using Left|Right Edge of Screen (Lscr|Rscr) speakers, which requires the immersive audio rendering engine to be made aware of the screen azimuthal span; this functionality is included in the Dolby AC-4 specifications, although we'll have to wait to see if it is actually implemented...?!


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post #2398 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 12:25 PM
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I have a single row in my theater, Front Heights would be at 45 degrees, while I could do tops at 55-60 degrees.
Looking at the DTS image as well as Atmos installation guide Link it looks like these would fall close to DTS guide and within range of Atmos. Am I to understand that one of the soundfields will be compromised if I chose either of these locations?

Also the atmos installation guide shows a 24.1.10 with fronts at 30 degrees and only 1 pair more center (Figure 1) while saying later that the Fronts would be pushed out to 45 degrees if both center pair and screen pair are used (Figure 20)
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post #2399 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Dude.... I'm not trying to "win" anything.

Are front L&R not supposed to be at 30 degrees instead of 45 degrees?

If anything, "ignore" the labels that say those are L&R when they should be one position forward with wides being at 60 degrees.

Unless things have changed yet once again and you're holding out on all of us.
FWIW, as of the spring software update, you can choose between cinematic Atmos for the L/R or the "consumer" version on my imaginary processor , so you select between them at 45 (standard) or 30 degrees (narrow Atmos). I've tried both, as have some other folks, and at least for me, the uber-wide didn't sound particularly good at 45 degrees once I'd heard the L/Rs at 30, except for possibly DSU. Maybe I need a bigger house LOL....or screen speakers

Anyway, back to the ivory tower ..have fun...

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post #2400 of 4119 Old 08-08-2016, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
...while Atmos has 4 speakers between their L/C/R; DTS:X Wides split the gap between their Fronts & Sides while Atmos Wides are the next speaker over from the Fronts...
Sanjay - to be clear, those two statements are predicated on the fronts being at +/-45 right?

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