Beyond 7.1.4... Multi-AVR set-up for Immersive Audio - Page 35 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1021 of 2134 Old 08-27-2017, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humbland View Post

Rich,
Thanks.
Can you link me to the place to get the "tritton decoder boxes with A/D converters in front of them"?
Knowledge takes work, it is time for you to actually read through this thread (or at least search it).

Look for post 997....

You can get the A/D converters on ebay or amazon but the tritton boxes are probably only available on ebay. They did have a higher noise floor than the technics unit and less control. There was no way to set distances, etc. I think part of the noise problem was with the A/D optical outputs but some was just with the Tritton unit. I converted one tritton box to use a coax input instead of optical but it was only a marginal improvement. They just always had some level of white noise that made tweeter hiss. It didn't matter during the movies but it was noticeable when no source was playing.

For A/D converters (be sure to get analog to digital and not digital to analog) they look similar but do the opposite job...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
or
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


I do have 3 of the tritton boxes and 2 portta covnerters and one j-tech. One j-tech was slightly lower noise than the portta's but the other I bought was much worse so I returned it. The tritton boxes also have 3.5mm stereo outputs rather than RCA's so you will need an RCA stereo to 3.5mm stereo adapter to connect them... I did find these to be far better than the HD audio rush units (another thing to search for in this thread) at the expense of requiring the A/D converters...

Be careful because there are other tritton boxes that look similar but don't have the analog outputs. Be sure to see the analog outputs before buying. The analog output versions also seem to have two headphone connections on the front... They have to be models 90303 or 90302 from what I have found.... The cheaper more common ones don't work because they don't have the analog outputs (or the internal circuits for them).

ebay search for tritton boxes:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...02%29&_sacat=0

You will also need a 9 volt DC power supply for each tritton box if it doesn't come with it (which they usually don't when used) but they are pretty easy to find. I usually look at goodwill for power supplys or break down and buy on on ebay.

Rotel RSP-1066 or RSP-1068 are also prologicII pre-processors but they cost almost as much as the Marantz Slimline NR1403's used and don't have room correction or internal amplification so I went with the slimlines.

-Rich
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Marantz MM8003 150W/ch Amplifier Driving (L/C/R/SL/SR/SBL/SBR)
HTD Speakers L3 Tower L/R, L3 Center, Dual 12" L3 Subs, L2 Tower SL/SR, L2 Bkshlf SBL/SBR, Flat Panel WL/WR, Angled 6.5" In Ceiling FH/RH, 8" In Ceiling TM
Epson 5040UB Faux-K/3D with 106" Multi-Format Screen.

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post #1022 of 2134 Old 08-28-2017, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfb6435 View Post
Knowledge takes work, it is time for you to actually read through this thread (or at least search it).

Look for post 997....

You can get the A/D converters on ebay or amazon but the tritton boxes are probably only available on ebay. They did have a higher noise floor than the technics unit and less control. There was no way to set distances, etc. I think part of the noise problem was with the A/D optical outputs but some was just with the Tritton unit. I converted one tritton box to use a coax input instead of optical but it was only a marginal improvement. They just always had some level of white noise that made tweeter hiss. It didn't matter during the movies but it was noticeable when no source was playing.

For A/D converters (be sure to get analog to digital and not digital to analog) they look similar but do the opposite job...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
or
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


I do have 3 of the tritton boxes and 2 portta covnerters and one j-tech. One j-tech was slightly lower noise than the portta's but the other I bought was much worse so I returned it. The tritton boxes also have 3.5mm stereo outputs rather than RCA's so you will need an RCA stereo to 3.5mm stereo adapter to connect them... I did find these to be far better than the HD audio rush units (another thing to search for in this thread) at the expense of requiring the A/D converters...

Be careful because there are other tritton boxes that look similar but don't have the analog outputs. Be sure to see the analog outputs before buying. The analog output versions also seem to have two headphone connections on the front... They have to be models 90303 or 90302 from what I have found.... The cheaper more common ones don't work because they don't have the analog outputs (or the internal circuits for them).

ebay search for tritton boxes:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...02%29&_sacat=0

You will also need a 9 volt DC power supply for each tritton box if it doesn't come with it (which they usually don't when used) but they are pretty easy to find. I usually look at goodwill for power supplys or break down and buy on on ebay.

Rotel RSP-1066 or RSP-1068 are also prologicII pre-processors but they cost almost as much as the Marantz Slimline NR1403's used and don't have room correction or internal amplification so I went with the slimlines.

-Rich
Rich,
Thanks again. I'm definitely considering it.
What were your overall impressions of the 7.1.6 set up (using the A/D converters and the PLII decoders)? You mentioned that the noise floor was still audible. Was it a nuisance?
Also, I think that I could manually balance out the 6 overhead channels using the additional stereo amp volume controls and a db meter. However, how did you turn on/off the converters and the PLII decoders? I currently use a 12v trigger system for my outboard components. That won't work in this case. Do you know of an AC power strip that has a 12v trigger? How did you do it?
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post #1023 of 2134 Old 08-28-2017, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humbland View Post
Rich,
Thanks again. I'm definitely considering it.
What were your overall impressions of the 7.1.6 set up (using the A/D converters and the PLII decoders)? You mentioned that the noise floor was still audible. Was it a nuisance?
It wasn't bad. My with 89db speakers I could only hear it when movies/shows were paused from about 4-5 feet away with an 8.5ft ceiling. Unless your speakers are more sensitive than that it should not be a huge deal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by humbland
Also, I think that I could manually balance out the 6 overhead channels using the additional stereo amp volume controls and a db meter.
You will need 6 channels of external amplification....

The prologicII matrix changes all 6 speakers. The original 4 speakers are turned off when the center's are on so you can't use the pre-matrixed L/R signals or amplifiers. This is another reason that I ended up just using the Slimline AVRs. The slimlines matrix so well that I can actually do an audyssey calibration with them in prologicII mode with no leakage to the center channel so I get the real delays of the processing and didn't need to switch them to stereo mode when calibrating to get the speaker distances.... Of course I then turn off audyssey in the second AVR to avoid confusing it.

6 channels of amplification is pretty expensive for this purpose and there was no need for 150w/ch amplifiers on the ceiling speakers. A "small" 50 or 60w/ch 6 channel amplifier would work just fine.

I really did debate it though because I am currently only using 7/8 channels in my mm8003 and I had to remove my Adcom GFA-7500 from the system to have enough rack space. So I get 13 channels right now from the mm8003/slimlines where I could have had 15 from using all 8 of the mm8003 and 5 of the adcom. The tritton boxes are small enough to hide below the bottom shelf so they essentially use no rack space. If I am still happy with the slimlines in a month I will probably sell my Adcom amp...

Quote:
Originally Posted by humbland
However, how did you turn on/off the converters and the PLII decoders? I currently use a 12v trigger system for my outboard components. That won't work in this case. Do you know of an AC power strip that has a 12v trigger? How did you do it?
I connected them to an outlet on my power center that is switched by the 12v trigger. If you don't have a power center you could get a "smart" power strip that detects the power on current from the main AVR and turns on the rest of the outlets when it is on.

-Rich

Quad Marantz AVR 9.2.(4+2) Atmos/DTS:X using Dual sr7010's + Dual scAtmos nr1403's
Marantz MM8003 150W/ch Amplifier Driving (L/C/R/SL/SR/SBL/SBR)
HTD Speakers L3 Tower L/R, L3 Center, Dual 12" L3 Subs, L2 Tower SL/SR, L2 Bkshlf SBL/SBR, Flat Panel WL/WR, Angled 6.5" In Ceiling FH/RH, 8" In Ceiling TM
Epson 5040UB Faux-K/3D with 106" Multi-Format Screen.

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post #1024 of 2134 Old 08-28-2017, 01:06 PM
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[QUOTE=rfb6435;54706302]
You will need 6 channels of external amplification....

The prologicII matrix changes all 6 speakers. The original 4 speakers are turned off when the center's are on so you can't use the pre-matrixed L/R signals or amplifiers.

I do not understand why this is so? I will split the overhead Atmos pre-out signals from my Pioneer SC-97 AVR. Then feed the RCA amp inputs on the SC-97 to get two channels. I will use an existing stereo amp to feed 2 more channels. Then get one more stereo amp for the remaining two. The down side is that it could be difficult to balance with the onboard MCACC room correction. My thoughts were to get it in the "ball park", then do the overhead by ear.
Not sure why this will not work.
If it won't then I'm SOL. No practical way to add a 6 channel amp. I may as well get to more Atmos AVRs (like you).
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post #1025 of 2134 Old 08-28-2017, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humbland View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfb6435 View Post
You will need 6 channels of external amplification....

The prologicII matrix changes all 6 speakers. The original 4 speakers are turned off when the center's are on so you can't use the pre-matrixed L/R signals or amplifiers.
I do not understand why this is so? I will split the overhead Atmos pre-out signals from my Pioneer SC-97 AVR. Then feed the RCA amp inputs on the SC-97 to get two channels. I will use an existing stereo amp to feed 2 more channels. Then get one more stereo amp for the remaining two. The down side is that it could be difficult to balance with the onboard MCACC room correction. My thoughts were to get it in the "ball park", then do the overhead by ear.
Not sure why this will not work.
If it won't then I'm SOL. No practical way to add a 6 channel amp. I may as well get to more Atmos AVRs (like you).
Think about a stereo signal on each side of the ceiling.

If you take a stereo signal and convert it from stereo to L/C/R. The new L/R are not the same as the old L/R because they have to be modified to work correctly for the C channel. The original L/R will both be on equally to create a phantom C. If you apply prologic then it turns off the L/R when they are trying to form the phantom image and it uses the real C instead.

If you were to leave the original L/R untouched then you would get both the L/R and C playing at the same time which is not how it is supposed to work.

You can't use the original L/R signals and you can't pass the processed L/R back into the same AVR so I think you are indeed SOL, it just doesn't work that way.

I think you need to read this whole thread before proceeding. It is a lot of reading but you need to do the work to get the knowledge...

This thread describes a complicated solution. It takes a lot to get it right. I had to go back and re-read a lot of it and still missed a lot at first and because of that asked some questions that had been answered. There are a lot of diminishing returns from doing this and a lot of added problems. My wife asked me more than once why everything works worse than it used to before I started adding stuff.

The differences between 7.1.4, 9.1.4, (two AVRs), 7.1.6(3 AVRs) and 9.1.6 (4 AVRs) are there but they are a ton of work and there are a lot of stumbling blocks along the way. It just isn't for the faint of heart or budget conscious!

I am still somewhat considering that 7.1.6 with front wide speakers instead of SB speakers is good enough.. I would just give up the SB speakers and remove the complexity of the second atmos AVR if I did that.... That also requires playing around with the front and rear speakers to get room correction to play nice with the prologic matrixing so even that has a lot of extra complexity.

-Rich
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HTD Speakers L3 Tower L/R, L3 Center, Dual 12" L3 Subs, L2 Tower SL/SR, L2 Bkshlf SBL/SBR, Flat Panel WL/WR, Angled 6.5" In Ceiling FH/RH, 8" In Ceiling TM
Epson 5040UB Faux-K/3D with 106" Multi-Format Screen.

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post #1026 of 2134 Old 08-28-2017, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfb6435 View Post
Think about a stereo signal on each side of the ceiling.

If you take a stereo signal and convert it from stereo to L/C/R. The new L/R are not the same as the old L/R because they have to be modified to work correctly for the C channel. The original L/R will both be on equally to create a phantom C. If you apply prologic then it turns off the L/R when they are trying to form the phantom image and it uses the real C instead.

If you were to leave the original L/R untouched then you would get both the L/R and C playing at the same time which is not how it is supposed to work.

You can't use the original L/R signals and you can't pass the processed L/R back into the same AVR so I think you are indeed SOL, it just doesn't work that way.

I think you need to read this whole thread before proceeding. It is a lot of reading but you need to do the work to get the knowledge...

This thread describes a complicated solution. It takes a lot to get it right. I had to go back and re-read a lot of it and still missed a lot at first and because of that asked some questions that had been answered. There are a lot of diminishing returns from doing this and a lot of added problems. My wife asked me more than once why everything works worse than it used to before I started adding stuff.

The differences between 7.1.4, 9.1.4, (two AVRs), 7.1.6(3 AVRs) and 9.1.6 (4 AVRs) are there but they are a ton of work and there are a lot of stumbling blocks along the way. It just isn't for the faint of heart or budget conscious!

I am still somewhat considering that 7.1.6 with front wide speakers instead of SB speakers is good enough.. I would just give up the SB speakers and remove the complexity of the second atmos AVR if I did that.... That also requires playing around with the front and rear speakers to get room correction to play nice with the prologic matrixing so even that has a lot of extra complexity.

-Rich
Rich,
Thanks for your patience. I think I get it now...
Adding a second Atmos capable AVR that did "Front heights" would allow me to add the remaining two ceiling level speakers to the right and left of the projector screen. Pioneer does not have this capability. Is there an AVR that will allow a 7.1.2 configuration (with front heights being the .2)?
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post #1027 of 2134 Old 08-28-2017, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by humbland View Post
Rich,
Thanks for your patience. I think I get it now...
Adding a second Atmos capable AVR that did "Front heights" would allow me to add the remaining two ceiling level speakers to the right and left of the projector screen. Pioneer does not have this capability. Is there an AVR that will allow a 7.1.2 configuration (with front heights being the .2)?
I don't think you understand it still. Take a look at this one:


Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
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post #1028 of 2134 Old 08-28-2017, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
I don't think you understand it still. Take a look at this one:

Wow! I can see that I'm way over my head.
A simpler solution would be to add an older 5.1 or 7.1 AVR (non Atmos). Some of them had flexible positioning for the surrounds. A possible configuration would be for "Front heights" in the surrounds placement option. Not sure where to try and locate one...
What do you think?

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post #1029 of 2134 Old 08-28-2017, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humbland View Post
Wow! I can see that I'm way over my head.
A simpler solution would be to add an older 5.1 or 7.1 AVR (non Atmos). Some of them had flexible positioning for the surrounds. A possible configuration would be for "Front heights" in the surrounds placement option. Not sure where to try and locate one...
What do you think?
IF you want to go Scatmos, you need to send all 4 overhead pre-outs through the PL2 processors, not just the top middle, to get the "new" 6 overheads. You can not just "extract" the center, and leave the 4 overheads from your SC97.

Do you understand the drawing i posted above?

If you do, then yes, you can use two old 5.1 AVR's with PL2 to get 6 overheads, as explained above.

Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
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post #1030 of 2134 Old 08-28-2017, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humbland View Post
Wow! I can see that I'm way over my head.
A simpler solution would be to add an older 5.1 or 7.1 AVR (non Atmos). Some of them had flexible positioning for the surrounds. A possible configuration would be for "Front heights" in the surrounds placement option. Not sure where to try and locate one...
What do you think?
Then the Front heights wouldn't be atmos at all... They would be just the older technology upmixed height channels.

I think you need to do more research on what atmos is and how it works.

Don't take it personally but right now until you do the research this thread is way beyond your current level of understanding. It was beyond mine for a while and I am sure some aspects still are.

-Rich

Quad Marantz AVR 9.2.(4+2) Atmos/DTS:X using Dual sr7010's + Dual scAtmos nr1403's
Marantz MM8003 150W/ch Amplifier Driving (L/C/R/SL/SR/SBL/SBR)
HTD Speakers L3 Tower L/R, L3 Center, Dual 12" L3 Subs, L2 Tower SL/SR, L2 Bkshlf SBL/SBR, Flat Panel WL/WR, Angled 6.5" In Ceiling FH/RH, 8" In Ceiling TM
Epson 5040UB Faux-K/3D with 106" Multi-Format Screen.

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post #1031 of 2134 Old 08-28-2017, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr.tinnitus View Post
i see,darn it thought i had a workaround.guess ill use the cheap avr to play with the speakers as they come in and get either get the next gen 7.1.4 or save some cash on the current model.those arm some slick setups you guys are running.
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Didn't @Peterc613 find something compact? Perhaps he will post.

Seek and ye shall be rewarded...


The solution that I originally planned on using was the SMART 3X Jr processor. It came out back in 1999 when Dolby moved from 5.1 surround to 6.1 EX with the addition of a center rear channel for the Star Wars movie "The Phantom Menace". It used dolby pro logic to extract a center rear channel from the right and left rear channels in my system. The enclosure is fairly small (approx 7" x 5" x 1.5") and has tiny volume adjustment screws on the back. I looked long and hard for two more to extract Atmos top center channels from the Atmos top front / rear channels, but only found one more over the last several years.

SMART 3X JrLexicon MC-1

http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_...arch-2000.html



A superior solution, I think is to pick up a used Lexicon processor. Back in the really early days of home theater, Lexicon ruled the roost for high end pro logic processors with the CP-1, CP-2 and then the CP-3.

Lexicon CP-1

http://www.lexicon.com/lexicon-suppo...duct/cp-1.html



Lexicon CP-2

http://www.lexicon.com/lexicon-suppo...duct/cp-2.html



Lexicon CP-3

http://www.lexicon.com/lexicon-suppo...duct/cp-3.html



After the CP-3, Dolby moved from Pro Logic to Dolby Digital surround. Lexicon leveraged off their pro-audio technical expertise to come out with proprietary Lexicon digital surround sound codec called Logic 7. They included Logic 7 in their next two processors the DC-1 and DC-2. My first Lexicon processor was a used DC-2 that I picked up for $1,200 which was considered the finest processor available at the time. To my ears Logic 7 sounded much better than with the Dolby processing. It had a more expansive sound field in the surround channels and a much more solid and clear center channel image. This ability to extract the center was really evident on dialog for movies and on localizing musical instruments for music.

Lexicon Logic 7 white paper

http://www.lexicon.com/tl_files/cata...per%202006.pdf

Lexicon DC-1

http://www.lexicon.com/lexicon-suppo...duct/dc-1.html



Lexicon DC-2

http://www.lexicon.com/lexicon-suppo...duct/dc-2.html



After the DC-2, I upgraded to Lexicon's next generation processor the MC-1 which I picked up used for $2,300. It had both Dolby pro logic, Dolby Digital and included the latest version of Logic 7.

Lexicon MC-1

http://www.lexicon.com/lexicon-suppo...duct/mc-1.html



After the MC-1 Lexicon tripled the cost of their next processor the MC-12 at $10,000, which basically priced me out of the used market. They still come up on ebay for between $1,000 - $6,000 used depending on the version. Today, the CP-1, CP-2 and CP-3 processors are about $75-$150 on ebay. The DC-1 or DC-2 go for about $100-$200 on ebay. The MC-1 usually sells for about $200-$350 on ebay. Since I already have an DC-2 and MC-1 in storage (I never throw audio gear away), I was planning on picking up another MC-1 and using Logic 7 for the top centers.

Lexicon MC-12HD



This might not be as small of a form factor as the SMART 3X Jr., but it does a superior job of extracting a center from the side channels. Plus it has an IR remote which is much easier to adjust on the fly than getting up and going to the back of the AV rack to turn the volume adjustment screws with a small screwdriver. I'm sure any old pro logic receiver might do, but Lexicon was built to last because of their pro-audio background. I think Logic 7 will do a more defined top center extraction than Dolby pro logic. Finally, the Lexicons are very slim compared to a large AVR which will help with tight spaces in the AV rack.

Last edited by Peterc613; 08-28-2017 at 07:43 PM.
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post #1032 of 2134 Old 08-28-2017, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by rfb6435 View Post
Then the Front heights wouldn't be atmos at all... They would be just the older technology upmixed height channels.

I think you need to do more research on what atmos is and how it works.

Don't take it personally but right now until you do the research this thread is way beyond your current level of understanding. It was beyond mine for a while and I am sure some aspects still are.

-Rich
No offense taken.
I understand that an older AVR with PLIIz will extract height channels from the front R/L. I would then add those to my current Atmos 7.1.4 array. Not sure how it would sound. The only way to know would be to try it.
About the time that this thread comes up with a straightforward/cost effective solution, AVRs will probably go to a 7.1.6+ configuration. I think that Dolby has it in it's spec. sheet...
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post #1033 of 2134 Old 08-29-2017, 12:29 AM
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More Small and Smallish prologic and prologicII processors.

Prologic does work for scAtmos but I found prologic II to be a bit cleaner. The matrixing should be and did seem more precise.
If you are on a budget then either works.

Audiosource SS Three/Four

The audiosource SS Three/Four are simple prologic processors from ~1990 that have surround speaker amplifiers only (which are useless for scAtmos)
The SS Three is actually a higher quality unit than the SS Four. It has a better circuit board and a toroid transformer that hums a lot less than the pair of EI transformers in the SS Four (although I was able to cut the power to the larger amplifier EI transformer in the SS Four and the rest of the unit did not need it)

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Onkyo ES-600PRO
Prologic processor from Onkyo that has a 50w center channel amplifier built in. This is a well built older unit from a reputable AV supplier.

It would still require 4 channels of amplification for the Front and rear on each side but it does save something... It doesn't have a center channel preout so it would have to use the internal 50w amplifier for the center channels but given that it is rated at 50W into 8 ohms @ .09 THD it should do the job.

Manual: https://www.eu.onkyo.com/downloads/2...-600PRO_En.pdf


Technics SH-AC500D (requires A/D converters): (had a pair of these)
I actually liked these. I had no real issues with them and they worked just fine but they don't have the extra control of prologic II music mode.
http://www.audio-ideas.com/backiss/w..._sh-a500d.html
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Technics SH-AC300D: (requires A/D converters):
I went with the SH-AC500D instead and didn't try these. I guess I just hated the Tan faceplate too much...
http://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3181


Prologic II Processors:

The original and current recommendation for scAtmos is to run prologicII decoders. While the original prologic works well it doesn't have the advanced features of "music mode" that allow for adjustment of the center channel width.


Tritton Pro+ Headset decoders:

Cheapest little box I found! 6.5" wide, 5.5" deep, 1.5" tall (they even come in black, white, red, and silver) They save rack space but then require 6 channels of external amplification which kind of cancels out the savings...

They have to be models 90303 or 90302 to have the 3.5mm 5.1 analog outputs but they seem to show up on ebay pretty regularly and I even found one at goodwill for 3 bucks! Lesser models don't have the analog inputs.

They require an external Analog to digital optical converter ($15 or less on amazon) and a 9V power supply.
They use 3.5mm stereo outputs so you have to buy some 3.5mm to rca adapters (or cables) but it isn't that big of a deal.
Other than that they plug in and work. They do have volume control but it is fairly basic, essentially you can turn down the volume on the center relative to the L/R. They also don't have any control over movie or music mode. It appeared to be only movie mode based on my testing.

They were much better than the HD Audio Rush boxes in my experience with MUCH less noise.
There was some noise on mine but it really seemed like it was from the A/D conversion because if I unplugged the digital input from the boxes the noise was drastically reduced. A better A/D converter might have helped.

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I did actually try a set of the much older Tritton AX360 prologic modules just for fun which also worked....
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Rotel RSP-1066 and RSP-1068:

Smallish Prologic II preprocessors, They were surely top of the line in their day.
I almost bought one but they were over $100 on ebay and actually larger than a marantz slimline and also require 6 channels of external amplification so it wouldn't save any rack space.

They also don't have modern room correction.


https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...eamp-processor


https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...fier-processor


The winner for me was:

Marantz Slimline NR140x/NR150x/NR160x:

Much more modern, the NR140x units are 5.1 and the NR160X units are 7.1. Most of the NR150x units are 5.1 but some are 7.1.




I recommend getting a NR1403/NR1603 or newer model used on ebay. The NR1501s work and are often found for a good price but run too hot to stack.

The NR1X03 and newer models are also fully compatible with the newer Marantz remotes. While this might seem like a bad thing it is easy to disable the IR sensor for normal usage and turn it back on to configure them. It is nicer than having to search for a remote to configure them if you want to re-run audyssey or play around with prologic II music settings.

I found the NR1403s to be the most common and cheapest of the slimlines that met my scAtmos needs.

They have HDMI onscreen setup, Audyssey MultEQ, 50w/channel amplifiers and are only 4" tall.

The menus on the NR1403 use older looking on screen display graphics compared to the NR1603 but they are really only needed for audyssey so it doesn't matter at all.

The 5.1 receiver was just fine for me where the 7.1 just had more potential to get hot from idle amplifiers running. I also like the extra empty space in the NR1403 where I added a rear exit 80mm PWM controlled computer fan.

Below are some pictures of my modified nr1403 where I added heatsinks to the hdmi board chips, a 4 wire temperature sensitive pwm fan controller, and an 80mm pwm fan with a decent grill to cover it. The airflow out of the top of the AVR from the HDMI board was much more restricted when stacking them than the amplifier heat sinks were. The main amplifier heat sinks are open to the top and bottom so stacking two aligned units still allows the air to flow freely through the amplifier boards. I added the fan so that I can stack them 2 high and not worry about it. The fans now pull air from inside the unit and out the back. The temperature sensor is on one of the heat sinks and if it were to get warm the fan will speed up and move more air. Setting the fan controllers to a low start speed where it ramps the fan speed quickly doesn't seem to ever cause the fans to speed up so they run quietly.

The fan controller is a simple ebay unit that costs about $4 shipped from China. I used an all plastic velcro on both it and a spot on the board where there were no components. I then used a 3" hole saw to cut the hole for the 80mm fan and drilled holes for the mounting screws. I then also drilled a small hole for an added 12v DC input jack to power the fan.

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The nr1403s in my setup are running prologic II exclusively they really can't have more than 2 channels driven at a peak of 2x50W at a time. Even if they have all 3 channels running it is just matrixing the sound intended for 2 speakers so the spl and power used shouldn't increase. I have not noticed any heat issues even after running a full atmos movie at ~72 on the sr7010's.


http://www.us.marantz.com/us/product...oductId=NR1403


Pioneer VSX-S520:
Compact class D amplified current model pioneer.
I haven't seen one in person but I like how small they are and the class D amplifiers explain how.
If you want a new compact unit this should fit the bill!


http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...ivers/VSX-S520

-Rich
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post #1034 of 2134 Old 08-29-2017, 06:30 AM
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Rich,
The multiple "Scatmos" AVR approach is beyond my space and logistical capabilities.
However, I would like to experiment with adding R/L front height channels on either side of the screen near the ceiling. From my reading, the most straightforward way would be to decode them with ProLogic IIz. PL IIz was the precursor to Atmos. There is not a lot of info out there on it, and what there is is "mixed".
I looked around for a PLIIz decoder. No luck.

I just posted this thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...l#post54709792

Hoping to get some help on where to get PLIIz to play around with. I get that adding it to Atmos 7.1.4 is problematical. So, I don't want to spend a lot of $, just to find out it doesn't work well.
Any ideas?
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post #1035 of 2134 Old 08-29-2017, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humbland View Post
Rich,
The multiple "Scatmos" AVR approach is beyond my space and logistical capabilities.
However, I would like to experiment with adding R/L front height channels on either side of the screen near the ceiling. From my reading, the most straightforward way would be to decode them with ProLogic IIz. PL IIz was the precursor to Atmos. There is not a lot of info out there on it, and what there is is "mixed".
I looked around for a PLIIz decoder. No luck.

I just posted this thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...l#post54709792

Hoping to get some help on where to get PLIIz to play around with. I get that adding it to Atmos 7.1.4 is problematical. So, I don't want to spend a lot of $, just to find out it doesn't work well.
Any ideas?
Don't expect any improvements what so ever, you will most likely mess up the whole experience. Either go Scatmos or don't.
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post #1036 of 2134 Old 08-29-2017, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
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Don't expect any improvements what so ever, you will most likely mess up the whole experience. Either go Scatmos or don't.
With all respect to the incredible Scatmos efforts you guys have put forth, how do you know that this will "mess up the whole experience"? Have you tried it?
Do you have any experience with PLIIz?
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post #1037 of 2134 Old 08-29-2017, 08:27 AM
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With all respect to the incredible Scatmos efforts you guys have put forth, how do you know that this will "mess up the whole experience"? Have you tried it?
Do you have any experience with PLIIz?
Have you read this thread from the beginning? All of your questions have been asked and answered before. There are no shortcuts.

You are welcome to try anything. There are just no shortcuts and you can't reinvent the wheel.
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post #1038 of 2134 Old 08-29-2017, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by rfb6435 View Post
Knowledge takes work, it is time for you to actually read through this thread (or at least search it).
This +1
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Originally Posted by humbland View Post
Do you have any experience with PLIIz?
The PLIIz algorithm feeds the front height speakers with decorrelated (out of phase) info from the L/R surround channels. In the days prior to having actual height information in a soundtrack it wasn't a problem to send random ambience from the surround channels to the height speakers. But these days, with real height content coming out of 4 height speakers, I don't see the advantage of sending surround channel ambience to another pair of heights next to them.
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Sanjay
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This +1
FWIW, I have read the thread. You can see that I posted in it way back. If I had the space, time and money, I would follow your Scatmos lead. I'm not trying to subvert your efforts. Part of the HT fun is in exploring new ideas.
I don't recall anyone experimenting specifically with PLIIz. Perhaps I missed it...
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I don't recall anyone experimenting specifically with PLIIz. Perhaps I missed it...
It's been discussed. Simply search for pliiz
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@rfb6435 the Outlaw 950 are great lower cost alternative to the Rotel RSPs and Adcom GTP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I decided to look at DPLII prepros. The Adcom GTP-860 and Rotels RSP-1066 & 1068 were $200+/each. I was finally able to find Outlaw 950s for under $100/each. The Outlaws save more rack space at just 10" tall for the pair.
For sale here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2915764

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It's been discussed. Simply search for pliiz
My bad. We actually discussed it back in January...
However, as far as I can tell, no one actually tried it out...


I'll keep my eyes open on Clist and see if I can turn up a PLIIz AVR. If I can, I'll check it out and post back here.
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My bad. We actually discussed it back in January...
However, as far as I can tell, no one actually tried it out...
That is because it is a step back as Sanjay explained.
Quote:
I'll keep my eyes open on Clist and see if I can turn up a PLIIz AVR. If I can, I'll check it out and post back here.
Cool
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Here is an interesting audio processor...

https://www.anthemav.com/products-cu.../page=overview


If I read it correctly, the Anthem D2V Statement processor seems to be able to take 5.1 analog inputs, digitize them and apply prologicIIx to it...

https://www.anthemav.com/downloads/d2v_manual.pdf

This means that hypothetically one could setup a D&M receiver in 7.1.4 with Wides instead of surround backs and expand it to 9.1.4.
The Atmos receiver would strip out the height channels from the base layer leaving a 5.1 analog source on its preouts which the Anthem D2V could expand it to 7.1 with prologicIIx. Of course there wouldn't be much point in sending it the subwoofer signal.

The bad part is that they still seem to cost more than an atmos AVR on ebay and it would also require an external 7 channel amplifier.
So it is basically just as expensive and worse than using a second Atmos AVR as everyone would have expected.

I bet that the delays are even bigger than scAtmos so it might be more than we could adjust out anyway.

But hey it "could" work...

-Rich

Quad Marantz AVR 9.2.(4+2) Atmos/DTS:X using Dual sr7010's + Dual scAtmos nr1403's
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gordojones88 View Post
Hi, it looks like this thread might be able to answer my question. I am looking for a receiver that has 7.1 amplification, but in addition pre-out processing for a .2 Atmos. Reason being there are lots of nice 7.1/5.1.2 receivers for $500, but to get the 7.1.2 it doubles the price past $1000. Thanks.
That will not work, sorry.

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Originally Posted by gordojones88 View Post
Hi, it looks like this thread might be able to answer my question. I am looking for a new 2017 receiver that has 7.1 amplification, but in addition pre-out processing for a .2 Atmos. Reason being there are lots of nice 7.1/5.1.2 receivers for $500, but to get the 7.1.2 it doubles the price past $1000. Thanks.
The Denon X4300H is being closed out -- $799 brand new on Amazon or $699 refurb at accessories4less if you are ok w a one year warranty vs three years. Grab it now before close out stock is gone. It's your cheapest path to 9-11 channels (9 amps built in and can expand to 11) with current features (HDCP 2.2 etc).

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The Denon X4300H is being closed out -- $799 brand new on Amazon or $699 refurb at accessories4less if you are ok w a one year warranty vs three years. Grab it now before close out stock is gone. It's your cheapest path to 9-11 channels (9 amps built in and can expand to 11) with current features (HDCP 2.2 etc).
The downside of the x4300h is the lack of support for wide speakers. That limits a setup to 7.1.6 with scatmos unless it is used as a secondary avr to something like the x6200/x7200.

This same limitation exists for pretty much all of the mainstream AVRs from 2016 onward. This is a big reason that I have the pair of sr7010s and not something newer like the sr6011 or x4300h.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

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Marantz MM8003 150W/ch Amplifier Driving (L/C/R/SL/SR/SBL/SBR)
HTD Speakers L3 Tower L/R, L3 Center, Dual 12" L3 Subs, L2 Tower SL/SR, L2 Bkshlf SBL/SBR, Flat Panel WL/WR, Angled 6.5" In Ceiling FH/RH, 8" In Ceiling TM
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The downside of the x4300h is the lack of support for wide speakers. That limits a setup to 7.1.6 with scatmos unless it is used as a secondary avr to something like the x6200/x7200.

This same limitation exists for pretty much all of the mainstream AVRs from 2016 onward. This is a big reason that I have the pair of sr7010s and not something newer like the sr6011 or x4300h.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
LOL, forgot which thread I'm posted in! I was just trying to help the dude out That "limitation" is not really relevant to most outside of the bounds of this thread
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post #1050 of 2134 Old 09-24-2017, 11:44 AM
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LOL, forgot which thread I'm posted in! I was just trying to help the dude out That "limitation" is not really relevant to most outside of the bounds of this thread
Agreed, It is probably only a "limitation" for people pushing the limits so it is mainly relevant to this thread.

I just mentioned it because it isn't that obvious given that many articles only list the 7.x.4 capabilities of AVRs even when the older AVRs could support 9.x.2. After 9.x.2 support was dropped manufacturers didn't go out of their way to point out that they dropped the feature for obvious reasons.

-Rich

Quad Marantz AVR 9.2.(4+2) Atmos/DTS:X using Dual sr7010's + Dual scAtmos nr1403's
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