Beyond 7.1.4... Multi-AVR set-up for Immersive Audio - Page 37 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1081 of 2130 Old 10-05-2017, 09:57 AM
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Note that I suggest turning off Dynamic Volume and Dynamic Range when using scAtmos....

With those enabled I got a lot of extra noise/hiss on the speakers. When I turned it off it is now silent.

I think it must be related to using analog inputs with the dynamic volume and dynamic range features.

I also noticed that my AVRs had the dialogue set to +2.5db by default (or from Audyssey). I need to play around with that to see if it should be turned back to zero or if it is already combined with the center speaker levels to create the correct SPL to match the L/R.

-Rich

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post #1082 of 2130 Old 10-05-2017, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfb6435 View Post
I also noticed that my AVRs had the dialogue set to +2.5db by default (or from Audyssey). I need to play around with that to see if it should be turned back to zero or if it is already combined with the center speaker levels to create the correct SPL to match the L/R.
The "dialogue level" setting on D+M receivers is just a "pass through" to the center channel level. So it's just allowing you to tweak the center channel volume from the Audio menu vs. having to dig into the speaker setup zone and run the test tones.

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post #1083 of 2130 Old 10-05-2017, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
The "dialogue level" setting on D+M receivers is just a "pass through" to the center channel level. So it's just allowing you to tweak the center channel volume from the Audio menu vs. having to dig into the speaker setup zone and run the test tones.
Should the audyssey setup provide equal levels to the L/C/R including the dialogue offset? If so then I guess the center speaker level should be -2.5db in the speaker setup due to the dialogue offset of +2.5db?

If so then I will probably just leave it alone.

The strange thing with scAtmos is that the atmos AVR only sets the levels for L/R during its setup so double checking the C requires and SPL meter (I have one but so fare have only checked it by ear).

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post #1084 of 2130 Old 10-05-2017, 12:05 PM
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The levels for the LCR are whatever they need to be, they don't have to be equal. Especially if the speakers aren't identical.

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If so then I guess the center speaker level should be -2.5db in the speaker setup due to the dialogue offset of +2.5db?
No, you're not understanding, the dialogue level is NOT an offset, it's a direct "pass through" to the center speaker level. It's the same thing, just a different (shortcut) way of getting there.

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post #1085 of 2130 Old 10-05-2017, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
The levels for the LCR are whatever they need to be, they don't have to be equal. Especially if the speakers aren't identical.

No, you're not understanding, the dialogue level is NOT an offset, it's a direct "pass through" to the center speaker level. It's the same thing, just a different (shortcut) way of getting there.
Ok I get it...

It is exactly the same setting as the Center channel level. Now that I re-read your post it makes sense.

Changing one affects the other and they both adjust the same setting just through a different menu like you said. N

Kind of a nitpick but dialogue seems like a bad name given that more than dialogue comes from the center channel. I guess the name makes sense for a novice user (not that a novice user would even change it).

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post #1086 of 2130 Old 10-13-2017, 09:12 AM
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Thumbs up 11.2.8 Dolby Atmos Layout

I have been following this thread for some time now, really informative and impressive rigs.

I'm considering expanding my Dolby Atmos 7.2.4 speaker layout to 11.2.8.

I'm planning to use two AVRs:

Denon X6300H, it supports 11.2 channels, this receiver can do 7.2.4 without adding another amp.
Denon X6200W would add wide speakers support, 4 heights (FHR, HFL, THR, THL) and side surrounds.

Here's the layout (Layout in this images is 9.2.8 but I'm planning to add two speakers between Side and Rear speakers):

AVRs speaker connections:


Red Speakers: X6300H (7.2.4)


Blue Speakers: X6200W (7.x.4 with external amp)


Room layout:





Does this sound feasible? Is there something I'm missing?

I would like to get some feedback on my idea. Thank you guys!

(I'm kinda limited by my broken english)
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post #1087 of 2130 Old 10-13-2017, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by chroman View Post
I have been following this thread for some time now, really informative and impressive rigs.

I'm considering expanding my Dolby Atmos 7.2.4 speaker layout to 11.2.8.

Does this sound feasible? Is there something I'm missing?

I would like to get some feedback on my idea. Thank you guys!

(I'm kinda limited by my broken english)
That is kind of what i am doing. With two 11.1 ATMOS Avr’s, 11.1.8 is the maximum you can do. I’d say go for it

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post #1088 of 2130 Old 10-13-2017, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
That is kind of what i am doing. With two 11.1 ATMOS Avr’s, 11.1.8 is the maximum you can do. I’d say go for it
Oh man, this is all possible because of YOU! thank you so much

(I am a great fan of your crazy setup)

I'll keep you guys posted on this journey
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post #1089 of 2130 Old 10-13-2017, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
That is kind of what i am doing. With two 11.1 ATMOS Avr’s, 11.1.8 is the maximum you can do. I’d say go for it
Don't you need two AVRs which support WIDES/Special Wides to achieve 11.8 FrankenAtmos(FAtmos?)?
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post #1090 of 2130 Old 10-13-2017, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chroman View Post
I have been following this thread for some time now, really informative and impressive rigs.

I'm considering expanding my Dolby Atmos 7.2.4 speaker layout to 11.2.8.

I'm planning to use two AVRs:

Denon X6300H, it supports 11.2 channels, this receiver can do 7.2.4 without adding another amp.
Denon X6200W would add wide speakers support, 4 heights (FHR, HFL, THR, THL) and side surrounds.
The problem you run into is that these two receivers don't know about each other. When decoding the height layer of the soundstage, one AVR sends all of the height information to the Top Front and Top Rear speakers, while the other AVR sends the same info to the Front Height and Rear Height speakers, leading to duplication of sounds and potentially some imaging or object movement issues. You will never have an instance where, say, a helicopter pans from Front Height to Top Front to Top Rear to Rear Height, which would be the ideal goal. Instead, FH and TF are basically identically to each other, as are TR and RH.

If that's what you want to do, it would be simpler to just use one AVR and create arrays by wiring the Top Front and Front Height speakers to each other in series, then the same for the Top Rear and Rear Height.

Likewise on the ground level, the X6200 would create Wide channels for you, but (if it's configured for 7.1.4) the X6300 believes you only have 7 speakers there and will take all the audio intended for Wides and split it between the front mains and Surrounds. More duplication.

You could get accurate Wide channels by configuring the X6300 for 9.1.2 and simply not connecting any height speakers to it. That receiver would consolidate the entire height layer into 2 channels which are not actually connected to speakers. Then configure the X6200 for 7.1.4 and only connect height speakers to it. This gives you a total of 9.1.4, with all sounds going to an accurate placement. However, it will not give you the 8 height channels you want, just 4.

Quote:
Here's the layout (Layout in this images is 9.2.8 but I'm planning to add two speakers between Side and Rear speakers):
How are you planning to decode audio to get to those speakers? Are they just cloned from either the Surrounds or Surround Backs, or will you be adding two additional AVRs to matrix new channels between the Surrounds and Surround Backs?

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post #1091 of 2130 Old 10-13-2017, 11:37 AM
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Don't you need two AVRs which support WIDES/Special Wides to achieve 11.8 FrankenAtmos(FAtmos?)?
Yes, to get my full Pure Wides+Special Wides, you need one to do 9.1.2(pure wides) and one on top of that with 5.1.4+wides(special wides)., but with two AVR’s, this gets you furthest.

So in this example, the one doing 7.1.4 doesn’t need wides.

Just yet another way of expanding 7.1.4.

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post #1092 of 2130 Old 10-13-2017, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Yes, to get my full Pure Wides+Special Wides, you need one to do 9.1.2(pure wides) and one on top of that with 5.1.4+wides(special wides)., but with two AVR’s, this gets you furthest.

So in this example, the one doing 7.1.4 doesn’t need wides.

Just yet another way of expanding 7.1.4.
Ahh... I see. I need to read your thread and look at your diagram again. I got distracted by your awesome sub build!

I added WIDES and I have been playing around with rendered WIDES (no REARS) vs matrixed/summed in the Lyngdorf MP-50. I need to pay attention to how the surround rendering differs. Any test material you recommend?

Now I am wondering if ScAtmos HEIGHTS can work with RoomPerfect so I can render 9.3.2 in the Lyngdorf. I am a true believer in WIDES now!

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post #1093 of 2130 Old 10-14-2017, 11:46 AM
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I am going to implement my own version of ScAtmos, I'll call it RAtmos.

My speaker layout is 9.1.6. and my SSP is the Lyngdorf MP-50. The MP-50 allows for a 9.1.6 layout but is rendering 7.1.4 and matrix/summing WIDES and TOP MIDDLES. I am happy with the TOP MIDDLE matrixing in all the scenarios I have tested. However, I want to be able to switch between matrixed WIDES and rendered.

To achieve rendered wides and not fully lose REAR SURROUNDS here is my plan: I am going to run 5.1+WIDES on the floor level. I am going to add a single Outlaw 950 back into the mix to provide the ability extract a mono REAR using DLPII (I believe MUSIC will gave me an ability to dial in the REARS without worrying about RoomPerfect affecting the ability to extract a perfect center image).

I will then be able to switch between 7.1.4 w/matrixed WIDES & TOP MIDS and 8.1.4 w/rendered WIDES & matrixed TOP MIDS via remote.

Please let me know your thoughts guys, as well as any other ideas.

If someone implements RAtmos for the REARS and ScAtmos for TOP MIDS (8.1.6) they could call it ScRAtmos. 🤡
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post #1094 of 2130 Old 10-15-2017, 07:59 AM
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Rumor has it ScAtmos sounds like crap...

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post #1095 of 2130 Old 10-15-2017, 01:50 PM
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Wasilla - - - that's the punch line . . .

So, It's rumored, 2 Corinthians walk into a bar . .

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post #1096 of 2130 Old 10-16-2017, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I am going to implement my own version of ScAtmos, I'll call it RAtmos.

My speaker layout is 9.1.6. and my SSP is the Lyngdorf MP-50. The MP-50 allows for a 9.1.6 layout but is rendering 7.1.4 and matrix/summing WIDES and TOP MIDDLES. I am happy with the TOP MIDDLE matrixing in all the scenarios I have tested. However, I want to be able to switch between matrixed WIDES and rendered.

To achieve rendered wides and not fully lose REAR SURROUNDS here is my plan: I am going to run 5.1+WIDES on the floor level. I am going to add a single Outlaw 950 back into the mix to provide the ability extract a mono REAR using DLPII (I believe MUSIC will gave me an ability to dial in the REARS without worrying about RoomPerfect affecting the ability to extract a perfect center image).

I will then be able to switch between 7.1.4 w/matrixed WIDES & TOP MIDS and 8.1.4 w/rendered WIDES & matrixed TOP MIDS via remote.

Please let me know your thoughts guys, as well as any other ideas.

If someone implements RAtmos for the REARS and ScAtmos for TOP MIDS (8.1.6) they could call it ScRAtmos. 🤡
That should work Clever idea actually, as long as you do not sit dead center on front of that mono rear. It would work in my room
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post #1097 of 2130 Old 10-16-2017, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I will then be able to switch between 7.1.4 w/matrixed WIDES & TOP MIDS and 8.1.4 w/rendered WIDES & matrixed TOP MIDS via remote.
I predict that for Atmos the 8.1.4 configuration (5.1.4+wides+'extracted rear') will become your favorite, as it features the 'special wides' which are enriched with arrayed side surround info for a true 'cinemascopic' sound (a special present from the Atmos decoder for those that choose to live without rears )
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post #1098 of 2130 Old 10-16-2017, 12:19 PM
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That should work Clever idea actually, as long as you do not sit dead center on front of that mono rear. It would work in my room
I'm connecting two rear surrounds reminiscent of THX/EX/ES REARS. I've got the REARS connected to the Zone 2 output on the Outlaw so I can easily switch between ScrAtmos (Aux1 input, Y-split from C output) and standard 7.1.4 (Aux 2 input).

Unfortunately, the MP-50 requires WIDES and TOP MIDS to be assigned to the [4] Auxiliary outputs as well as L/R front/rear subs. I'm hoping I can get Lyngdorf to allow more assignment flexibility so I can connect stereo subs to the REAR outputs, allowing 8.3.6 (really 7¾.3.4½).

My carpet is being ripped out at the moment (replacing with wood). I just need to tidy up the wiring. [I added an Earthquake Cinenova Grande 7 (it is humongous!) last w/e and rearranged my racks]. I hope to get RoomPerfect run (w/Outlaw in stereo) and start listening tonight.

@Roger Dressler I haven't forgotten about measuring the Lyngdorf matrixing relative SPL levels. I've just been preoccupied with these WIDES! Too bad I can't afford the Altitude16, but I think this setup will be amazing.
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post #1099 of 2130 Old 10-16-2017, 03:04 PM
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Rumor has it ScAtmos sounds like crap...
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setup 9.2.6 with my three receiver and too bad only movie and tv app in the windows 10 can decode those atmos correctly.

test with the test tone from dolby website.
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post #1101 of 2130 Old 11-16-2017, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by michael1997 View Post
setup 9.2.6 with my three receiver and too bad only movie and tv app in the windows 10 can decode those atmos correctly.

test with the test tone from dolby website.
I think something is lost in translation.

I'm not sure what you mean by windows 10 decode. There are many programs that can bitstream the Atmos track out of HDMI from a Windows 10 PC. The only Windows 10 Atmos decode I am aware of is for headphones and I believe you either need special headphones or a Xbox One Controller (and buy the Atmos add-on). Bitstreaming has been supported for some time now and is free.

Has anyone tried the headphone Atmos? I can't imagine it being anywhere near as effective as even 5.1.2.
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post #1102 of 2130 Old 11-19-2017, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Using Multi Ch. Stereo for DSU content is a kludge, but it's better than letting everything collapse to the Top Middles with PLII Movie.

Given that DSU sums everything on the left side of the room to mono, and the same on the right, I don't see this as being any muddier than a typical 7.1.4 system.
So if I'm reading this correctly, with TF and TR overheads, DSU generates only a mono field on each side? (Which it expects will then span that bed array that it knows about, from front to back.)

But then running that through PLII center extraction results in TM only, with silent TF and TR? Thanks for that tidbit of info.
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post #1103 of 2130 Old 11-19-2017, 04:14 AM
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But then running that through PLII center extraction results in TM only, with silent TF and TR? Thanks for that tidbit of info.
Switching PLII to 'music' mode will prevent this...

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post #1104 of 2130 Old 11-19-2017, 04:33 AM
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Switching PLII to 'music' mode will prevent this...
Ah, thanks! I missed the distinction between the Movie mode Josh cited, and Music mode. (Hey, they both start with "M".) Sloppy reading on my part.
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post #1105 of 2130 Old 11-19-2017, 05:16 AM
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I don't have the issue with mono sound from DSU as I use Neural:X instead due to wides.

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post #1106 of 2130 Old 11-19-2017, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
I don't have the issue with mono sound from DSU as I use Neural:X instead due to wides.
Well, it's not really mono, right? DSU does generate L/R height beds. So L/R movement, just not F/B.

Neural:X is a good plan for your SR7010. Not so good for my SR7009.

It does have Neo:X though, that does FW+ FH. By extending the FH through the height arrays, you get the same speaker utilization as DSU, plus the FWs that DSU omits.


I did know about the PLII MusicMode that Maikel kindly pointed out. But I was confused that Josh contrasted MCS with MovieMode. Why not just use MusicMode? Wouldn't that be easier than MCS?

I was however unaware that DSU generates only two height signals, regardless of how many speakers you may have up there.

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post #1107 of 2130 Old 11-19-2017, 09:46 AM
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I did know about the PLII MusicMode that Maikel kindly pointed out. But I was confused that Josh contrasted MCS with MovieMovie. Why not just use MusicMode? Wouldn't that be easier than MCS?
I explained in post 1075 why I use Multi-Ch Stereo rather than PLII Music in my specific circumstance. In addition to the Top Middles, I am also extracting voice-of-god speakers using the Surround outputs on my secondary AVRs. PLII Music only spreads the sound among its L/C/R outputs, ignoring the Surround. Multi-Ch Stereo uses all of them.

If you're just doing Top Middle extraction with no VOG, PLII Music should work fine.

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post #1108 of 2130 Old 11-19-2017, 02:46 PM
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I explained in post 1075 why I use Multi-Ch Stereo rather than PLII Music in my specific circumstance. In addition to the Top Middles, I am also extracting voice-of-god speakers using the Surround outputs on my secondary AVRs. PLII Music only spreads the sound among its L/C/R outputs, ignoring the Surround. Multi-Ch Stereo uses all of them.

If you're just doing Top Middle extraction with no VOG, PLII Music should work fine.
Thanks, Josh. That makes perfect sense.

In spite of my lack of reading comprehension skills, I still learned something new and valuable from this exchange (about DSU limitations).

I even got a better understanding about Multi-Chan Stereo, which the manual on my Marantz AVR really fails to explain well. So thanks for that as well.
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post #1109 of 2130 Old 11-19-2017, 03:08 PM
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PLII Music only spreads the sound among its L/C/R outputs, ignoring the Surround.
Actually, PLII uses all 5 outputs, and PLIIx uses all 7 outputs. The result depends on the nature of the stereo source, as this is an active decoder, not a passive upmixer like All Stereo. If you play some uncorrelated stereo audio, it comes from all speakers at approx equal levels.

PLII has a 3-ch mode, if that is desired, which is accessed by deactivating the surround speakers.

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post #1110 of 2130 Old 11-20-2017, 07:06 AM
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Actually, PLII uses all 5 outputs, and PLIIx uses all 7 outputs. The result depends on the nature of the stereo source, as this is an active decoder, not a passive upmixer like All Stereo. If you play some uncorrelated stereo audio, it comes from all speakers at approx equal levels.

PLII has a 3-ch mode, if that is desired, which is accessed by deactivating the surround speakers.
For some reason, I had it in my head that the Music mode didn't use the Surround speakers. I will have to give that another try. Thanks, Roger.
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