Beyond 7.1.4... Multi-AVR set-up for Immersive Audio - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 2185 Old 02-14-2016, 12:47 PM
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reg. my post No 89 and first feedback:

I was not patient enough to wait for reply or ideas and choose a different aproach - maybe even more simple for me..
I have attached the surround-box directly to my surround left and right boxes SRL SRR and have connected the aditional Top Middle R and Top Middle L to it.
No AVR no Power needed just parallel connection.
So far I am exited the missing sound from the TOP direction is now here (even if I have connected spare small ****y Creative Speakers there). Much better and rounder spacial impression, the previous sound gap from above the head is now definitely gone, I am really happy about that. Unfortunately probably nobody can replicate due to this special ancient surround box I bought directly from the engineer-developer (side job getting some extra bucks while selling it anonymously) in 1995....
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post #92 of 2185 Old 02-14-2016, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Hey guys...

I just had a thought while redoing everything while adding a Yamaha 5100 to my system.


This is important for anyone attempting x.x.6 Atmos-EX


In order for the center extraction to work flawlessly you must set the distance/delay for each respective front/rear pair to be identical.




If you have the Dolby Atmos 9.1.6 layout test tones, I HIGHLY suggest you use them to make sure of this correct processing.

Suggest using the furthest distance as the one. If your front heights are 10ft away but your rear heights are 8ft away, use the 10ft one. Or whatever really but the important part is that they are the same. 10ft for the front, 10ft for the rear pair. In this example stated, the number itself was arbitrary. Also, since the left and right side of the room are on different receivers it's okay if one side is a different distance. Just as long as that sides front and rear are the same distance/delay. Left and right are independent from one another.




I HIGHLY suggest editing this line. What you want to do is make sure that each respective side front and rear distance are identical to one another. If Audyssey sets the front and rear speakers different, change it immediately.


@rontalley

That was an excellent write up and jives with my own experience with Atmos-EX 7.1.6 sound. Critical listening to some Dolby demo disk reveals some limitations of this arrangement. You can improve from there though. But still, demos like the helicopter a really rough. Sounds bad. The 747 I thought sounds better when processing with MUSIC mode, oddly enough. Including some others. I highly recommend you test with MUSIC mode if you find MOVIE mode doesn't sound well enough.

Actual movie watching OTOH sounds really good with a great sense of front, back and direct overhead imaging.
Hi Scott,

So you still recommend that
1. Set the external AVRs in PL-II mode when running Audyssey (unlike you mentioned you had disabled the PL-II mode when running Room correction)
2. Whatever Audyssey (or any other room correction has set), pick the higher for that side and set it for front and rear equally in the Atmos AVR.

Nallah posted a page ago (post 58) that Audyssey does not set the distance beyond certain limit. I was just wondering what is the sure shot way to get that exact distance.

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post #93 of 2185 Old 02-14-2016, 01:54 PM
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Honestly, I doubt it makes much difference at all running it enabled or disabled while running room EQ. Yeah, you'll get a 20ft addition to the distance but whatever.

My point was to set the front and rear pairs equidistant from each respective sides front and rear. Whether your distance is 7ft or 27ft away, make sure the front and rear are set the same. The PL2 decoding WILL NOT WORK PROPERLY if you don't.
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post #94 of 2185 Old 02-14-2016, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Honestly, I doubt it makes much difference at all running it enabled or disabled while running room EQ. Yeah, you'll get a 20ft addition to the distance but whatever.

My point was to set the front and rear pairs equidistant from each respective sides front and rear. Whether your distance is 7ft or 27ft away, make sure the front and rear are set the same. The PL2 decoding WILL NOT WORK PROPERLY if you don't.
Gotcha..

Edit: Also setting PLII or direct does matter on the trim levels. I have noticed that there is boost on trims when using PLII vs them in Direct.

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post #95 of 2185 Old 02-15-2016, 09:00 AM
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My TF speaker is 5 ft forward of my seated position, only 2 seats, to achieve a 45 degree angle, the TR speakers would also be 5 feet behind the seated position for a 45 degree angle. A TM speakers would then be only 5 feet from each of the TF/TR. Would they be too close to each other to really distinguish overhead panning or improve any height ambiance beyond what only TF/TR would provide?
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post #96 of 2185 Old 02-15-2016, 08:26 PM
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^ same concern

TF is 7' from TR,
and hung up TM's in the middle.

I asked earlier about what anyone might think is "too close" or an "optimal range"
the silence is still thundering
but really, your set up is different, your room is different, a lot of this is still new and an evolving and thoroughly clever extrapolation,
so the best answer is "TRy it"

many of us have "some" extra" gear so a bit of ad hoc work maybe all it takes . . . if at least to find out what does or does not work, at least for you

and Architectural Digest is not coming in for a photo shoot yet

We not going to just quit,
we like asking "what If?"
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post #97 of 2185 Old 02-15-2016, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
^ same concern

TF is 7' from TR,
and hung up TM's in the middle.

I asked earlier about what anyone might think is "too close" or an "optimal range"
the silence is still thundering
but really, your set up is different, your room is different, a lot of this is still new and an evolving and thoroughly clever extrapolation,
so the best answer is "TRy it"

many of us have "some" extra" gear so a bit of ad hoc work maybe all it takes . . . if at least to find out what does or does not work, at least for you

and Architectural Digest is not coming in for a photo shoot yet

We not going to just quit,
we like asking "what If?"
Here's how My Atmos in ceiling speakers are laid out. The room is 24' long . Each speaker is 72" apart , either forward or back from the top middle speakers. Between the three layers there is 12' total distance, this is optimal in my room, note the middle speakers are at the 13' distance from the front wall into the ceiling. I sit at the 14' from the front wall on a riser. There is a front row of seats, and a rear bar with two matching leather stools that adjust to height. So the front top ceiling speaker is 7' forward of the mlp,the top middle 12" forward, with the top rear at 48" behind. The bar and stools are beyond the rear tops and not within the ceiling 6 speaker rectangle . All sounds proper. Look close and you can see the top rear,top middle and top front. Disregard the speaker over the column that's for a separate speaker layout for Auro3D. The tops are all in line as required by Dolby Atmos so called standard .

PeterV
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post #98 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonleepenn View Post
Here's how My Atmos in ceiling speakers are laid out. The room is 24' long . Each speaker is 72" apart , either forward or back from the top middle speakers. Between the three layers there is 12' total distance, this is optimal in my room, note the middle speakers are at the 13' distance from the front wall into the ceiling. I sit at the 14' from the front wall on a riser. There is a front row of seats, and a rear bar with two matching leather stools that adjust to height. So the front top ceiling speaker is 7' forward of the mlp,the top middle 12" forward, with the top rear at 48" behind. The bar and stools are beyond the rear tops and not within the ceiling 6 speaker rectangle . All sounds proper. Look close and you can see the top rear,top middle and top front. Disregard the speaker over the column that's for a separate speaker layout for Auro3D. The tops are all in line as required by Dolby Atmos so called standard .

PeterV

That looks great, thanks. And most importantly it does add to the height immersion which was my main concern.
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post #99 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post
My TF speaker is 5 ft forward of my seated position, only 2 seats, to achieve a 45 degree angle, the TR speakers would also be 5 feet behind the seated position for a 45 degree angle. A TM speakers would then be only 5 feet from each of the TF/TR. Would they be too close to each other to really distinguish overhead panning or improve any height ambiance beyond what only TF/TR would provide?
Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
^ same concern

TF is 7' from TR,
and hung up TM's in the middle.

I asked earlier about what anyone might think is "too close" or an "optimal range"
the silence is still thundering
but really, your set up is different, your room is different, a lot of this is still new and an evolving and thoroughly clever extrapolation,
so the best answer is "TRy it"

many of us have "some" extra" gear so a bit of ad hoc work maybe all it takes . . . if at least to find out what does or does not work, at least for you

and Architectural Digest is not coming in for a photo shoot yet

We not going to just quit,
we like asking "what If?"
I believe that a TF+TR spread of 9'6" or less with speakers that have a high dispersion rate, TM is not necessarily needed. I also believe that a spread of 10' still phantoms TM pretty good but a PLII TM wouldn't hurt. The higher the ceiling the further apart 45 degrees becomes. IMHO, TF+TM+TR should be at least 4'9" apart from each other or 57".

Three Ceiling Heights are presented below 8', 10' and 12'.
Top Measurement for each is the distance between speakers if they were at 45 degrees.
The bottom measurements for each: On the right side is from over MLP to minimum. On the left side is from over MLP to where you "must" designate as "Height" in AVR.
The Grey area is personal choice.
The Tan area is where you "must" designate as "Top/Overhead"
The Red area is reaching where you should consider just .2 unless you have speakers with a low dispersion rate.

There is no front or back. These are only suggestions. Adjust accordingly

I hope this helps someone.


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post #100 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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So has anyone received their PLII surround sound decoder box(s)?

I am still skeptical yet curious regarding those boxes, I should have been the beta tester since I was the one that brought them up.

My apologies (in advance) to anyone that buys them if they do not work out.

Here's to hoping they work,
Jason

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post #101 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post
So has anyone received their PLII surround sound decoder box(s)?

I am still skeptical yet curious regarding those boxes, I should have been the beta tester since I was the one that brought them up.

My apologies (in advance) to anyone that buys them if they do not work out.

Here's to hoping they work,
Jason
Do you mean those cute little 5.1 decoders from ebay?

Would not be my first choice but for $30 a pop, why not give it a try. Unfortunately, you will require external amplification. If you have that already, all good but most do not have six channels of amp laying around with no use. That's why I always suggested old receivers since they can be had cheap and will have built in amp.
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post #102 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Do you mean those cute little 5.1 decoders from ebay?

Would not be my first choice but for $30 a pop, why not give it a try. Unfortunately, you will require external amplification. If you have that already, all good but most do not have six channels of amp laying around with no use. That's why I always suggested old receivers since they can be had cheap and will have built in amp.
Yeah, those funky little things.

I have the external amplification and it appears several others in the thread do as well (that have mentioned ordering the boxes).

What I have not ordered as of yet is the extra speakers, still trying to decide on the best over-all set-up (if pseudo 7.1.6 is worth it over 7.1.4 in a compromised Atmos layout or if I need to go 9.1.6/9.1.8 to make it worthwhile). Then there's the room correction aspect to consider for the tops.

I'll never know unless I try it for myself.
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post #103 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rontalley View Post

Three Ceiling Height are presented below.
Very nice drawing! Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Do you mean those cute little 5.1 decoders from ebay?

Would not be my first choice but for $30 a pop, why not give it a try. Unfortunately, you will require external amplification. If you have that already, all good but most do not have six channels of amp laying around with no use. That's why I always suggested old receivers since they can be had cheap and will have built in amp.
If you have a old AVR with 7.1. Multi ch in, you're all set

Not to nag, but regarding PLII processing delay. For those of you with an PLII AVR already in your system, try this click test:

Play it, and switch your PLII AVR between stereo(or pure direct) and PLII mode.

With my Yama AVR i hear MASSIVE delay in PLII mode! In stereo(wich is how it was Audyssey'ed) it is one dry click, but in PLII it is a distinct click-click!! Maybe it is just Yama, but could anyone try and confirm?

PS: i am not talking about playing just your PLII AVR! Play it connected to your Atmos AVR, with the PLII AVR in the loop.

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post #104 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 03:50 PM
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Sure. I'll give it a shot (and compare with CinemaDSP) tonight.

Though I already know there is added delay.
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post #105 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
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Sure. I'll give it a shot (and compare with CinemaDSP) tonight.

Though I already know there is added delay.
Thanks

Actually cinema DSP added a HORRIBLE echo! Hehe

Edit: ohh and @Scott Simonian : since you have all heights trough PLII AVR's, you should try that click test with just switching one of them

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post #106 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 04:00 PM
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Thanks

Actually cinema DSP added a HORRIBLE echo! Hehe
Oh, yeah. It's terrible when listening to stuff like this. Ripples all over the place. More like a "splash" of sound than a click.

That being said, I meant I'll test out DSU versus CinemaDSP not so much the PL2 decoding part for x.x.6 expansion. That will stay stereo, direct or PL2.
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post #107 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Very nice drawing! Thanks



If you have a old AVR with 7.1. Multi ch in, you're all set

Not to nag, but regarding PLII processing delay. For those of you with an PLII AVR already in your system, try this click test:
http://youtu.be/dMX3svjulec

Play it, and switch your PLII AVR between stereo(or pure direct) and PLII mode.

With my Yama AVR i hear MASSIVE delay in PLII mode! In stereo(wich is how it was Audyssey'ed) it is one dry click, bit in PLII it is a distinct click-click!! Maybe it is just Yama, but could anyone try and confirm?

PS: i am not talking about playing just your PLII AVR! Play it connected to your Atmos AVR, with the PLII AVR in the loop.
DSU? Multi-Stereo?

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post #108 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 04:08 PM
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If anyone has a spare miniDSP 2x4 they could try the centre channel plugin.

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post #109 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 04:18 PM
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Edit: ohh and @Scott Simonian : since you have all heights trough PLII AVR's, you should try that click test with just switching one of them
Huh?
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post #110 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Oh, yeah. It's terrible when listening to stuff like this. Ripples all over the place. More like a "splash" of sound than a click.

That being said, I meant I'll test out DSU versus CinemaDSP not so much the PL2 decoding part for x.x.6 expansion. That will stay stereo, direct or PL2.
Quote:
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DSU? Multi-Stereo?
Yes, in DSU. As you would normally use it. And in DSU, it is still one dry click.

To explain: i have the height2 pre-out from my 7200 going to AV1 input on my Yama. My top middle speakers are then connected to the Yama front speaker output. And i have a VOG connected to the center speaker output on the Yama, witch then becomes a matrixed VOG when the Yama is set to PLII mode.
So Yama stereo mode= top middle left and right active.
Yama PLII mode= top middle + matrixed VOG active.
This means that, as opposed to Scott's x.x6 solution where all heights get the same delay, in my case only one set of heights get the delay.

Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
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post #111 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post
So has anyone received their PLII surround sound decoder box(s)?

I am still skeptical yet curious regarding those boxes, I should have been the beta tester since I was the one that brought them up.

My apologies (in advance) to anyone that buys them if they do not work out.

Here's to hoping they work,
Jason
Mine are supposed to be here next week, but even then I'll have to crack into them to try and lose the frequency limiting, so I'm figuring at least the following weekend to get them working. (That's if I don't have to send then to someone a little better versed in electronics to do the conversion)
Oh, to me, for $57.00 shipped (for both) it's well worth the try, esp. since my main focus it's simply to get 7.2.6 with my current speaker location layout.

*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
My Build Thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...formation.html
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post #112 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 04:22 PM
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Seeing as how PL2 does in fact delay the signal, I should expect at least two distinct clicks. One for the bottom speakers and another for the top set. Possibly three since my two PL2 aren't 100% identical.
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post #113 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 04:23 PM
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Huh?
Well, it the point is to hear the delay it induces, you only need to switch one of them, otherwise all of your heigths get the same change. You should probably still hear the double click, but it would be more clear if you switch just one.

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post #114 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Seeing as how PL2 does in fact delay the signal, I should expect at least two distinct clicks. One for the bottom speakers and another for the top set. Possibly three since my two PL2 aren't 100% identical.
Correct, that is what i hear.

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post #115 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 04:51 PM
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AVR used: Pioneer VSX-815-K
Short Result=1 Click

Normal Setup:
Atmos AVR TF L/R sent to L/R DVD input of Extension (Amp) AVR
Atmos AVR TR L/R sent to Surround L/R DVD 5.1 input of Extension (Amp) AVR

Test 1 Setup:
Atmos AVR TF L/R sent to L/R DVD input of Extension (Amp) AVR
Switch to Analog 2ch and switch to PLII
Results:
DSU=TF volume say 50%, TR volume say 30%
Switch TFL to Center output volume 100%
Click just a slight delay with PLII (~6ms)
Click plays with no noticeable delay in stereo, TF only

Test 2 Setup:
Atmos AVR TF L sent to L DVD input of Extension (Amp) AVR
Atmos AVR TR L sent to R DVD input of Extension (Amp) AVR
Switch to Analog 2ch and switch to PLII
Results:
DSU=TF volume say 50%, TR volume say 30%
Switch TFL to Center output volume 100%
Click just a slight delay with PLII (~8ms)
Click plays with no noticeable delay in stereo, TF only

If not paying attention, then there would not be a noticeable delay using PLII with Pioneer VSX-815-K with regular content.

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AVR 1-Yamaha RX-A3050 (7.2.4), AVR 2 Pioneer VSX-815-K(Used for 4ch Amp TF+TR)
Mains-Polk Audio RTi8, Center-Polk Audio CSi5, Surrounds-Polk Audio RTi4, Ceilings-Micca M-8C, Sub 1- UM18-22 (4cu.ft DIY) - iNuke 6000DSP, Sub 2-Klipsch RW12D
Projector-BenQ 3550 4K, Screen-110" Silver Ticket STR-169110, TV-Vizio P-65 4K

Last edited by rontalley; 02-16-2016 at 04:55 PM.
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post #116 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 05:01 PM
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@Rontalley

why do you have both front's and both rear's hooked up to their own PL2 receiver?

Are you trying to do a middle front and rear speaker?
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post #117 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rontalley View Post
AVR used: Pioneer VSX-815-K
Short Result=1 Click

Normal Setup:
Atmos AVR TF L/R sent to L/R DVD input of Extension (Amp) AVR
Atmos AVR TR L/R sent to Surround L/R DVD 5.1 input of Extension (Amp) AVR

Test 1 Setup:
Atmos AVR TF L/R sent to L/R DVD input of Extension (Amp) AVR
Switch to Analog 2ch and switch to PLII
Results:
DSU=TF volume say 50%, TR volume say 30%
Switch TFL to Center output volume 100%
Click just a slight delay with PLII (~6ms)
Click plays with no noticeable delay in stereo, TF only

Test 2 Setup:
Atmos AVR TF L sent to L DVD input of Extension (Amp) AVR
Atmos AVR TR L sent to R DVD input of Extension (Amp) AVR
Switch to Analog 2ch and switch to PLII
Results:
DSU=TF volume say 50%, TR volume say 30%
Switch TFL to Center output volume 100%
Click just a slight delay with PLII (~8ms)
Click plays with no noticeable delay in stereo, TF only

If not paying attention, then there would not be a noticeable delay using PLII with Pioneer VSX-815-K with regular content.
Did you play the click test with ALL your speakers connected and active, and your Atmos AVR in DSU mode?

6-8 ms?? Did you hear one or two clicks in PLII mode? If you heard two, it is a lot more than 8ms!

Was your AVR calibrated with the PLII AVR in Stereo or PLII mode?

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post #118 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Did you play the click test with ALL your speakers connected and active, and your Atmos AVR in DSU mode?

6-8 ms?? Did you hear one or two clicks in PLII mode? If you heard two, it is a lot more than 8ms!

Was your AVR calibrated with the PLII AVR in Stereo or PLII mode?
So, do you think this click test be useful in tuning the delay (distance) that Audyssey is not able to set correctly?
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post #119 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 06:07 PM
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So, do you think this click test be useful in tuning the delay (distance) that Audyssey is not able to set correctly?
No, in my case i can not compensate enough no matter what i try. Like i said earlier, Audyssey Pro measured top middle, when in PLII mode, at 50 feet!! It should be 6!
And REW showed a 50ms delay!

In my case, the click test is a conclusive test that my Yama AVR does indeed introduce a large delay.

I hear it in the Audiosphere demo too, in stereo it is very precise, swithcing to PLII makes the bells more diffuse and echo-ish.

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post #120 of 2185 Old 02-16-2016, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rontalley View Post
AVR used: Pioneer VSX-815-K
Short Result=1 Click

Normal Setup:
Atmos AVR TF L/R sent to L/R DVD input of Extension (Amp) AVR
Atmos AVR TR L/R sent to Surround L/R DVD 5.1 input of Extension (Amp) AVR

Test 1 Setup:
Atmos AVR TF L/R sent to L/R DVD input of Extension (Amp) AVR
Switch to Analog 2ch and switch to PLII
Results:
DSU=TF volume say 50%, TR volume say 30%
Switch TFL to Center output volume 100%
Click just a slight delay with PLII (~6ms)
Click plays with no noticeable delay in stereo, TF only

Test 2 Setup:
Atmos AVR TF L sent to L DVD input of Extension (Amp) AVR
Atmos AVR TR L sent to R DVD input of Extension (Amp) AVR
Switch to Analog 2ch and switch to PLII
Results:
DSU=TF volume say 50%, TR volume say 30%
Switch TFL to Center output volume 100%
Click just a slight delay with PLII (~8ms)
Click plays with no noticeable delay in stereo, TF only

If not paying attention, then there would not be a noticeable delay using PLII with Pioneer VSX-815-K with regular content.
I am kind of lost in your setup.
I did a quick test, but I am unable to hear more than 1 click.
Part of the problem could be that I do not hear them from heights at all (only from the bed) no matter DSU or Neural:X.
May be I am not doing the right thing.
I am using the youtube app from my Sonly BDP5500 to play that video. (Which sends 2 channel stereo to AVR).
How are you guys playing it?
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