Beyond 7.1.4... Multi-AVR set-up for Immersive Audio - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 487Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #121 of 2169 Old 02-16-2016, 06:13 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rontalley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,222
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 809 Post(s)
Liked: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
@Rontalley

why do you have both front's and both rear's hooked up to their own PL2 receiver?

Are you trying to do a middle front and rear speaker?
I have not expanded my 4 overheads. I am using my second AVR as a 4 channel Amp via the 5.1 analog input. I wanted to use 2 of the same AVRs for "Scatmos" but I have purchased what I need to do a "True" VOG but haven't got around to it. See earlier post.

However, I can easily test stuff by experimenting with results from 1 side like I did above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Did you play the click test with ALL your speakers connected and active, and your Atmos AVR in DSU mode?

6-8 ms?? Did you hear one or two clicks in PLII mode? If you heard two, it is a lot more than 8ms!

Was your AVR calibrated with the PLII AVR in Stereo or PLII mode?
All speakers active but I had to turn up the overheads at first then I disconnected the fronts and sides to make sure they were playing. After, I confirmed that they were playing then I re-connected the speakers. Plugging the Left Front into the Center output enabled the click to play at 100% volume.

Although I could hear the very, very slight delay, I would still consider it as 1 click.

I calibrated using regular AMP mode. I do not see a point in calibrating with PLII enabled as it is just an extension of the speakers attached. Nothing should change sonically if you are using the same speaker...

I also tried it with Multi Stereo and the click was much louder in the Left and Right speakers and Center remained at 100%.

My Media Room
AVR 1-Yamaha RX-A3050 (7.2.4), AVR 2 Pioneer VSX-815-K(Used for 4ch Amp TF+TR)
Mains-Polk Audio RTi8, Center-Polk Audio CSi5, Surrounds-Polk Audio RTi4, Ceilings-Micca M-8C, Sub 1- UM18-22 (4cu.ft DIY) - iNuke 6000DSP, Sub 2-Klipsch RW12D
Projector-BenQ 3550 4K, Screen-110" Silver Ticket STR-169110, TV-Vizio P-65 4K
rontalley is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #122 of 2169 Old 02-16-2016, 06:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 3,918
Mentioned: 342 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2698 Post(s)
Liked: 3692
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
I am kind of lost in your setup.
I did a quick test, but I am unable to hear more than 1 click.
Part of the problem could be that I do not hear them from heights at all (only from the bed) no matter DSU or Neural:X.
May be I am not doing the right thing.
I am using the youtube app from my Sonly BDP5500 to play that video. (Which sends 2 channel stereo to AVR).
How are you guys playing it?
I agree, i didn't quite get his setup either.....

Well, it it just a stereo track, so yes it should work.
I just used airplay from my ipad to the 7200.
However i had the same problem with the click track Manni linked to in the Auro thread, strangely enough. It worked in Neural:X, though.

But good point though: make sure the click is in all speakers for the test to work!!

Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
Nalleh’s HT
Nalleh is online now  
post #123 of 2169 Old 02-16-2016, 06:26 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rontalley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,222
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 809 Post(s)
Liked: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
I agree, i didn't quite get his setup either.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
I am kind of lost in your setup.
I did a quick test, but I am unable to hear more than 1 click.
Part of the problem could be that I do not hear them from heights at all (only from the bed) no matter DSU or Neural:X.
May be I am not doing the right thing.
I am using the youtube app from my Sonly BDP5500 to play that video. (Which sends 2 channel stereo to AVR).
How are you guys playing it?
I am not running an extended double AVR setup yet. I AM using my second AVR as an AMP for my 4 heights via the 5.1 analog input. But I can check the results of PLII by simply switching to stereo input and enabling PLII. In this mode, it will use whatever is plugged into the DVD input L/R and expand it to 5.1.

So saying all that, if I unplug the the TFR going into the Right input and switch it with TRL, then I get TML via PLII. Again can only check one side but whatever happens on the left should happen on the right via a 2nd extension AVR right?

Again, like you, my delay is pretty much non-existent.

My Media Room
AVR 1-Yamaha RX-A3050 (7.2.4), AVR 2 Pioneer VSX-815-K(Used for 4ch Amp TF+TR)
Mains-Polk Audio RTi8, Center-Polk Audio CSi5, Surrounds-Polk Audio RTi4, Ceilings-Micca M-8C, Sub 1- UM18-22 (4cu.ft DIY) - iNuke 6000DSP, Sub 2-Klipsch RW12D
Projector-BenQ 3550 4K, Screen-110" Silver Ticket STR-169110, TV-Vizio P-65 4K
rontalley is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #124 of 2169 Old 02-16-2016, 06:29 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 3,918
Mentioned: 342 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2698 Post(s)
Liked: 3692
Quote:
Originally Posted by rontalley View Post
I have not expanded my 4 overheads. I am using my second AVR as a 4 channel Amp via the 5.1 analog input. I wanted to use 2 of the same AVRs for "Scatmos" but I have purchased what I need to do a "True" VOG but haven't got around to it. See earlier post
How can you get PLII processing from the 5.1 Multi Ch Input?

Isn't all processing disabled on that input, e.g one in=one out??

Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
Nalleh’s HT
Nalleh is online now  
post #125 of 2169 Old 02-16-2016, 06:30 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
aaranddeeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Lover's State
Posts: 4,079
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1874 Post(s)
Liked: 677
Quote:
Originally Posted by rontalley View Post
Again, like you, my delay is pretty much non-existent.
I am not too sure on that. I have to make sure the top layer is producing sound.
My problem is I can not silence all bed layer (except LCR).
But, yeah I will need some quiet time to do this test again.
aaranddeeman is offline  
post #126 of 2169 Old 02-16-2016, 06:47 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rontalley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,222
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 809 Post(s)
Liked: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
How can you get PLII processing from the 5.1 Multi Ch Input?

Isn't all processing disabled on that input, e.g one in=one out??
My AVR is weird and unusual is what I have found out. However that is not what I was doing for the test.

My AVR has DVD L/R then an additional Surround L/R and Center input in another section.

I can use either DVD L/R analog or Multi-input all with the same DVD input.

There is a button on the AVR that says "Signal Select"
The options are DVD 5.1, DVD, Auto or Digital. The Signal Select switches between the 4.

So using just the L/R input, I can switch to stereo analog and enable PLII. All 5 outputs will then be active matrixing the L/R input signal. This is what I did for the test.

Test 1 was TFL+TFR=TFM
Test 2 was TFL+TRL=TML

My Media Room
AVR 1-Yamaha RX-A3050 (7.2.4), AVR 2 Pioneer VSX-815-K(Used for 4ch Amp TF+TR)
Mains-Polk Audio RTi8, Center-Polk Audio CSi5, Surrounds-Polk Audio RTi4, Ceilings-Micca M-8C, Sub 1- UM18-22 (4cu.ft DIY) - iNuke 6000DSP, Sub 2-Klipsch RW12D
Projector-BenQ 3550 4K, Screen-110" Silver Ticket STR-169110, TV-Vizio P-65 4K
rontalley is online now  
post #127 of 2169 Old 02-16-2016, 06:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rontalley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,222
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 809 Post(s)
Liked: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
I am not too sure on that. I have to make sure the top layer is producing sound.
My problem is I can not silence all bed layer (except LCR).
But, yeah I will need some quiet time to do this test again.
Easy for me to to turn up all 4 of my Tops by just turning the knob. Bed Layer has banana plugs that I can just take out 1 side of the terminal.

1 Click for me but I do hear the slight delay but again, I would estimate it to be about less then ~10ms.

Quick history of me and input lag. I was a hobbyist then professional sound engineer for over 20 years. It drove me crazy to hear input lag and going from the first version of Cakewalk all the way to ProTools 11 I became very familiar with measuring in ms for various reasons. At around 8ms, the lag is very noticeable. Anything below that, most people can't hear.

I HATE WHEN LIPS ARE OUT OF SYNC! Even start noticing this at the Movies! WTF?!?!?

My Media Room
AVR 1-Yamaha RX-A3050 (7.2.4), AVR 2 Pioneer VSX-815-K(Used for 4ch Amp TF+TR)
Mains-Polk Audio RTi8, Center-Polk Audio CSi5, Surrounds-Polk Audio RTi4, Ceilings-Micca M-8C, Sub 1- UM18-22 (4cu.ft DIY) - iNuke 6000DSP, Sub 2-Klipsch RW12D
Projector-BenQ 3550 4K, Screen-110" Silver Ticket STR-169110, TV-Vizio P-65 4K
rontalley is online now  
post #128 of 2169 Old 02-16-2016, 07:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 3,918
Mentioned: 342 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2698 Post(s)
Liked: 3692
^^^ Ok, then it sounds like you did it correct.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rontalley View Post
1 Click for me but I do hear the slight delay but again, I would estimate it to be about less then ~10ms.

Quick history of me and input lag. I was a hobbyist then professional sound engineer for over 20 years. It drove me crazy to hear input lag and going from the first version of Cakewalk all the way to ProTools 11 I became very familiar with measuring in ms for various reasons. At around 8ms, the lag is very noticeable. Anything below that, most people can't hear.

I HATE WHEN LIPS ARE OUT OF SYNC! Even start noticing this at the Movies! WTF?!?!?

I agree, more than 8ms, you should easily hear it.
So can you imagine my 30+ms click test !?!

Already it seems there are BIG differenses in PLII processing from one AVR to the next.

Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
Nalleh’s HT
Nalleh is online now  
post #129 of 2169 Old 02-16-2016, 09:00 PM
Bass Enabler
 
Scott Simonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 21,509
Mentioned: 204 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5986 Post(s)
Liked: 5117
@Nalleh

Just spent the past couple hours in my HT room listening to stuff.

I started off with that 40bpm Metronome clip. Ran it quite a few times. The jist of it is, with my settings and Atmos-EX PL2 Movie active, I hear a single click. If I set to stereo on the Atmos-EX receivers, I get a double click. Even played around with listening to just the LCR's or just the presence speakers or just the surrounds. Interesting what goes where depending on surround decoder selected.

Setting my distance for the presence speakers to a more appropriate amount makes it solid again. To note, I keep x.x.6 mode on almost all the time. It's usually left in PL2 Movie mode. Only when playing around with stuff do I try the MUSIC or stereo mode. I found that I get mostly what I'm after using Atmos-EX but proper 4ch presence speakers is good too. Just in my room my front is more like a height and my rear is more like an overhead as far as angles are concerned...and they are with this niche of the hobby.

As expected, the click track renders with a whole wide gamut of decay as I found while cycling through various CinemaDSP modes. Some were quite pleasing (click track) even though you are acutely aware there is some processing going on. It's obvious but not always offensive.
Nalleh likes this.

Last edited by Scott Simonian; 02-16-2016 at 09:04 PM.
Scott Simonian is offline  
post #130 of 2169 Old 02-16-2016, 09:46 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 3,918
Mentioned: 342 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2698 Post(s)
Liked: 3692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
@Nalleh

Just spent the past couple hours in my HT room listening to stuff.

I started off with that 40bpm Metronome clip. Ran it quite a few times. The jist of it is, with my settings and Atmos-EX PL2 Movie active, I hear a single click. If I set to stereo on the Atmos-EX receivers, I get a double click. Even played around with listening to just the LCR's or just the presence speakers or just the surrounds. Interesting what goes where depending on surround decoder selected.

Setting my distance for the presence speakers to a more appropriate amount makes it solid again. To note, I keep x.x.6 mode on almost all the time. It's usually left in PL2 Movie mode. Only when playing around with stuff do I try the MUSIC or stereo mode. I found that I get mostly what I'm after using Atmos-EX but proper 4ch presence speakers is good too. Just in my room my front is more like a height and my rear is more like an overhead as far as angles are concerned...and they are with this niche of the hobby.

As expected, the click track renders with a whole wide gamut of decay as I found while cycling through various CinemaDSP modes. Some were quite pleasing (click track) even though you are acutely aware there is some processing going on. It's obvious but not always offensive.
Thanks, i believe that confirms a rather big delay using PLII.
And judging from your double click in stereo mode, you did your YPAO in PLII mode?
And then your heigths are at some 20 feet or so?
That is ok, as long as you mainly use PLII Mode, as you say.
Problem is if you want to run straight, without PLII.
In my case it wreaks havoc in one of the two situations, as i would need PLII for the matrixed VOG in Atmos mode, while i need the REAL VOG in Auro mode(multi ch input). And one of them would be out of sync either way.
Easy solution: drop the matrixed VOG

And yes, a click track really reveales a lot about the different modes. Kind of fun to explore, actually.
Scott Simonian likes this.

Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
Nalleh’s HT
Nalleh is online now  
post #131 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 06:28 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rontalley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,222
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 809 Post(s)
Liked: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by rontalley View Post
AVR used: Pioneer VSX-815-K
Short Result=1 Click...

...If not paying attention, then there would not be a noticeable delay using PLII with Pioneer VSX-815-K with regular content.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
@Nalleh

Just spent the past couple hours in my HT room listening to stuff.

I started off with that 40bpm Metronome clip. Ran it quite a few times. The jist of it is, with my settings and Atmos-EX PL2 Movie active, I hear a single click...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Thanks, i believe that confirms a rather big delay using PLII.
Huh?

My Media Room
AVR 1-Yamaha RX-A3050 (7.2.4), AVR 2 Pioneer VSX-815-K(Used for 4ch Amp TF+TR)
Mains-Polk Audio RTi8, Center-Polk Audio CSi5, Surrounds-Polk Audio RTi4, Ceilings-Micca M-8C, Sub 1- UM18-22 (4cu.ft DIY) - iNuke 6000DSP, Sub 2-Klipsch RW12D
Projector-BenQ 3550 4K, Screen-110" Silver Ticket STR-169110, TV-Vizio P-65 4K
rontalley is online now  
post #132 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 06:37 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 3,918
Mentioned: 342 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2698 Post(s)
Liked: 3692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
If I set to stereo on the Atmos-EX receivers, I get a double click.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rontalley View Post
Huh?
It all depends how the PLII AVR's are set during calibration. If set to PLII mode, then double click in stereo.

Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
Nalleh’s HT
Nalleh is online now  
post #133 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 06:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rontalley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,222
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 809 Post(s)
Liked: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
It all depends how the PLII AVR's are set during calibration. If set to PLII mode, then double click in stereo.
I am not understanding why one would calibrate via PLII...

Seems like you would calibrate normally, then switch to PLII? You don't calibrate your main floor speakers in DSU...But when DSU is active, it extracts from the Front and Left for Center and pulls information from various sounds for the remaining speakers that do not have a dedicated channel...

Isn't this the same with PLII? Why not calibrate the speakers in regular Amp mode (All AVR settings virgin with speaker set to large), then afterward kick on PLII? This is how all other speaker operate on main AVR. Right?

"This logic assumes that all speakers match".

Never-the-less, with my setup, stereo=solid absolutely no delay, PLII=very small delay. I calibrate as explained above. I can't see why it would be opposite. Unless the stereo doesn't have a delay and all other speakers do?

My Media Room
AVR 1-Yamaha RX-A3050 (7.2.4), AVR 2 Pioneer VSX-815-K(Used for 4ch Amp TF+TR)
Mains-Polk Audio RTi8, Center-Polk Audio CSi5, Surrounds-Polk Audio RTi4, Ceilings-Micca M-8C, Sub 1- UM18-22 (4cu.ft DIY) - iNuke 6000DSP, Sub 2-Klipsch RW12D
Projector-BenQ 3550 4K, Screen-110" Silver Ticket STR-169110, TV-Vizio P-65 4K
rontalley is online now  
post #134 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 07:26 AM
Member
 
howieshel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 160
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Wiring In extra Speakers

Question, I have 7-2-4 set up with a Yammy 3050, and a Yammy A1. The 3050 drives all except the front mains and SR"s, the A1 drives them. I also have 4 Butt shakers wired in series-parellel with the red & Black speaker wire input to the Front mains on the 3050, (i'm not sure yet if the Butt shakers will get what they need from that Input) I'm using this input for them because the front mains are empty on 3050 and because I input the Front mains to Mains on the A1. Front & rear subs are from 3050.

How would I wire the addition of extra speakers to this set up and where should I put these to get the most effect out of the entire setup?

Thanks
howieshel is offline  
post #135 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 07:49 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rontalley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,222
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 809 Post(s)
Liked: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by howieshel View Post
Question, I have 7-2-4 set up with a Yammy 3050, and a Yammy A1. The 3050 drives all except the front mains and SR"s, the A1 drives them. I also have 4 Butt shakers wired in series-parellel with the red & Black speaker wire input to the Front mains on the 3050, (i'm not sure yet if the Butt shakers will get what they need from that Input) I'm using this input for them because the front mains are empty on 3050 and because I input the Front mains to Mains on the A1. Front & rear subs are from 3050.

How would I wire the addition of extra speakers to this set up and where should I put these to get the most effect out of the entire setup?
Thanks
To the best of my knowledge, the Pre-outs on the 3050 are post. Meaning they have all all the processing that is applied to that channel but goes out right before amplification.

The shakers need a high and low-pass filter. No way to do it properly if they are married to your Front Speakers processing.

You should consider either, using the Front Terminal Outs for your main and using the sub out to the A1 for the shakers, if it provides enough output. Should be enough output between the two units to run everything.

If not then consider investing in an iNuke NU1000 DSP for you shakers. They will benefit from having a dedicated amp.

My Media Room
AVR 1-Yamaha RX-A3050 (7.2.4), AVR 2 Pioneer VSX-815-K(Used for 4ch Amp TF+TR)
Mains-Polk Audio RTi8, Center-Polk Audio CSi5, Surrounds-Polk Audio RTi4, Ceilings-Micca M-8C, Sub 1- UM18-22 (4cu.ft DIY) - iNuke 6000DSP, Sub 2-Klipsch RW12D
Projector-BenQ 3550 4K, Screen-110" Silver Ticket STR-169110, TV-Vizio P-65 4K
rontalley is online now  
post #136 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 08:07 AM
Member
 
howieshel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 160
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by rontalley View Post
To the best of my knowledge, the Pre-outs on the 3050 are post. Meaning they have all all the processing that is applied to that channel but goes out right before amplification.

The shakers need a high and low-pass filter. No way to do it properly if they are married to your Front Speakers processing.

You should consider either, using the Front Terminal Outs for your main and using the sub out to the A1 for the shakers, if it provides enough output. Should be enough output between the two units to run everything.

If not then consider investing in an iNuke NU1000 DSP for you shakers. They will benefit from having a dedicated amp.
I also have a pylepro pt2000 amp I could use but i don't know how or where to plug into or wire either Yammy's amp's for the Butt shakers to work, any help there?
howieshel is offline  
post #137 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 08:07 AM
Member
 
howieshel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 160
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by rontalley View Post
To the best of my knowledge, the Pre-outs on the 3050 are post. Meaning they have all all the processing that is applied to that channel but goes out right before amplification.

The shakers need a high and low-pass filter. No way to do it properly if they are married to your Front Speakers processing.

You should consider either, using the Front Terminal Outs for your main and using the sub out to the A1 for the shakers, if it provides enough output. Should be enough output between the two units to run everything.

If not then consider investing in an iNuke NU1000 DSP for you shakers. They will benefit from having a dedicated amp.
I also have a pylepro pt2000 amp I could use but i don't know how or where to plug into or wire either Yammy's amp's for the Butt shakers to work, any help there?
howieshel is offline  
post #138 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 08:21 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rontalley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,222
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 809 Post(s)
Liked: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by howieshel View Post
I also have a pylepro pt2000 amp I could use but i don't know how or where to plug into or wire either Yammy's amp's for the Butt shakers to work, any help there?
The Pyle is just a straight forward 2ch amp. How are you current subs hooked up? 7.2.4 would indicate that you had 2 subs in your setup. Are each on it's own output from the back of the 3050? I would imagine so.. The AVR has calibrated both subs separately right?

Now you have the shakers that also needs to be "calibrated". But really just need the proper low and high pass filters applied and take care of any delays that might throw the shake off from the actual low end. Most don't realize the delay or even care.

Quick easy solution:
You could split off of one of the sub outs (whichever one "feels" the best) to the pyle using a regular RCA Splitter, providing the Pyle has enough output...(it should). Don't know which shakers you have...

You would just need one side or you could run 2 shakers, in parallel, on one side and 2 on the other using another splitter like the one linked above (reversed). Don't know if the Pyle is bridgeable?...

My Media Room
AVR 1-Yamaha RX-A3050 (7.2.4), AVR 2 Pioneer VSX-815-K(Used for 4ch Amp TF+TR)
Mains-Polk Audio RTi8, Center-Polk Audio CSi5, Surrounds-Polk Audio RTi4, Ceilings-Micca M-8C, Sub 1- UM18-22 (4cu.ft DIY) - iNuke 6000DSP, Sub 2-Klipsch RW12D
Projector-BenQ 3550 4K, Screen-110" Silver Ticket STR-169110, TV-Vizio P-65 4K
rontalley is online now  
post #139 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 09:06 AM
Bass Enabler
 
Scott Simonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 21,509
Mentioned: 204 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5986 Post(s)
Liked: 5117
Quote:
Originally Posted by rontalley View Post
Huh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rontalley View Post
I am not understanding why one would calibrate via PLII...

Seems like you would calibrate normally, then switch to PLII? You don't calibrate your main floor speakers in DSU...
Right but DSU is built into the main receiver. You aren't using DSU in the extra receivers. THEY are adding delay only to the presence speakers because we are using PL2 to "generate" the two extra middle overhead speakers.

I have optimized my system to run full time in 7.1.6 mode with PL2 active on the two extra receivers. They add delay but only to the speakers high up so I must compensate for that with the main Atmos receiver settings. My front and rear presence speakers are set ~20ft further in distance relative to the rest of the speakers to make up for the delay that PL2 adds. Once I deactivate the PL2 processing, the delay added is gone revealing the large compensation I have added resulting in a 'double click'.

That's what Nalleh is saying and that is what is happening in my system.

While playing the click test I get a nice immersive single click while running 7.1.6 and using DSU. There are other modes that also net a single click. Other DSP modes add significant decay by design. It's an interesting experiment and a good control for the user to hear how well things are working.
Scott Simonian is offline  
post #140 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 09:19 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rontalley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,222
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 809 Post(s)
Liked: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Right but DSU is built into the main receiver. You aren't using DSU in the extra receivers. THEY are adding delay only to the presence speakers because we are using PL2 to "generate" the two extra middle overhead speakers.

I have optimized my system to run full time in 7.1.6 mode with PL2 active on the two extra receivers. They add delay but only to the speakers high up so I must compensate for that with the main Atmos receiver settings. My front and rear presence speakers are set ~20ft further in distance relative to the rest of the speakers to make up for the delay that PL2 adds. Once I deactivate the PL2 processing, the delay added is gone revealing the large compensation I have added resulting in a 'double click'.

That's what Nalleh is saying and that is what is happening in my system.

While playing the click test I get a nice immersive single click while running 7.1.6 and using DSU. There are other modes that also net a single click. Other DSP modes add significant decay by design. It's an interesting experiment and a good control for the user to hear how well things are working.
Understood but, are you doing full "calibration", with PLII on or just adding the delay after the main calibration to eliminate the delay?

My Media Room
AVR 1-Yamaha RX-A3050 (7.2.4), AVR 2 Pioneer VSX-815-K(Used for 4ch Amp TF+TR)
Mains-Polk Audio RTi8, Center-Polk Audio CSi5, Surrounds-Polk Audio RTi4, Ceilings-Micca M-8C, Sub 1- UM18-22 (4cu.ft DIY) - iNuke 6000DSP, Sub 2-Klipsch RW12D
Projector-BenQ 3550 4K, Screen-110" Silver Ticket STR-169110, TV-Vizio P-65 4K
rontalley is online now  
post #141 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 09:36 AM
Bass Enabler
 
Scott Simonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 21,509
Mentioned: 204 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5986 Post(s)
Liked: 5117
I haven't really run the full gamut of YPAO yet since picking up the 5100 last week but I did a short initial run. The Room EQ system (YPAO) detected the added delay caused from PL2 decoding applied to the two pairs of presence speakers and then adjusted accordingly. By adding a great distance to those speakers, the rest are delayed to match the six overhead speakers.


Sooooo.... if you mean to use x.x.6 layout using PL2 decoding, you'll need to do the same.

Just note that when disabling the PL2 decoding that there will need to be a new distance/delay profile for your system if you want it all aligned with the system bypassed. Since adding this I don't ever use my HT with it disabled so this is a total non-issue for me.
Scott Simonian is offline  
post #142 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 09:47 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 3,918
Mentioned: 342 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2698 Post(s)
Liked: 3692
^^^Correct as Scott says.

HOWEVER: for you guys with a Yamaha main Atmos AVR/AVP, there is actually a solution for this problem, as they can save two COMPELTELY different setups in so called "patterns". So you could save one pattern with the PLII distance setting, and one pattern with "correct" distance setting, and then just save the two on Scene1 and Scene 2.

Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
Nalleh’s HT
Nalleh is online now  
post #143 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 09:49 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mashie Saldana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 2,273
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1252 Post(s)
Liked: 1090
Is there any reason to switch back to .4 once .6 is set up?

Tower Cinema - 9.1.6 in a 12'x12' room
Input : Nvidia Shield TV, Panasonic DMP-UB400
Magic : Marantz SR7010, Marantz SR6010, 2x NAD T743
Output : Panasonic TX65EZ952B, SVS PB13 Ultra, Monitor Audio GSLCR 2xGS20 2xGS10 4xGSFX 6xBX1
Mashie Saldana is online now  
post #144 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 10:04 AM
Bass Enabler
 
Scott Simonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 21,509
Mentioned: 204 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5986 Post(s)
Liked: 5117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
^^^Correct as Scott says.

HOWEVER: for you guys with a Yamaha main Atmos AVR/AVP, there is actually a solution for this problem, as they can save two COMPELTELY different setups in so called "patterns". So you could save one pattern with the PLII distance setting, and one pattern with "correct" distance setting, and then just save the two on Scene1 and Scene 2.
Yup. Two avenues of solution if you own a Yamaha as your main Atmos system. There is two "Patterns" and numerous "scenes" to set. Not sure if the "scenes" work with different speaker configurations though. I think everything but those settings are an option. I'd have to look into them further to know, myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
Is there any reason to switch back to .4 once .6 is set up?
Sure. One may not actually like the decoded sound but too lazy to take it all apart.

I've mostly reverted to four channel presence to diagnose one thing or another. I find that most of the time I much prefer the sound of a full decoded six "channel" overhead system. Partly of which is because my front heights are really front heights and are the furthest speakers from the MLP. It's quite a stretch from front to back pairs. The middle pair really helps fill the overhead bubble in my case.

So to answer your question, Mashie.... you won't know til you try it yourself.
Scott Simonian is offline  
post #145 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 10:12 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mashie Saldana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 2,273
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1252 Post(s)
Liked: 1090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Sure. One may not actually like the decoded sound but too lazy to take it all apart.

I've mostly reverted to four channel presence to diagnose one thing or another. I find that most of the time I much prefer the sound of a full decoded six "channel" overhead system. Partly of which is because my front heights are really front heights and are the furthest speakers from the MLP. It's quite a stretch from front to back pairs. The middle pair really helps fill the overhead bubble in my case.

So to answer your question, Mashie.... you won't know til you try it yourself.
And I won't know until NAD release the Atmos MDC sometime this year... (latest info say summer)


I'm going to pick up a second PLII/5ch AVR on Friday though in preparation. My room is 12x12 so even though the speakers won't be that far apart it should still be a good 45degree separation if I use FH/TM/RH and only one pair of speakers needs to be ceiling mounted.

Tower Cinema - 9.1.6 in a 12'x12' room
Input : Nvidia Shield TV, Panasonic DMP-UB400
Magic : Marantz SR7010, Marantz SR6010, 2x NAD T743
Output : Panasonic TX65EZ952B, SVS PB13 Ultra, Monitor Audio GSLCR 2xGS20 2xGS10 4xGSFX 6xBX1
Mashie Saldana is online now  
post #146 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 11:18 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rontalley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,222
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 809 Post(s)
Liked: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
I haven't really run the full gamut of YPAO yet since picking up the 5100 last week but I did a short initial run. The Room EQ system (YPAO) detected the added delay caused from PL2 decoding applied to the two pairs of presence speakers and then adjusted accordingly. By adding a great distance to those speakers, the rest are delayed to match the six overhead speakers.


Sooooo.... if you mean to use x.x.6 layout using PL2 decoding, you'll need to do the same.

Just note that when disabling the PL2 decoding that there will need to be a new distance/delay profile for your system if you want it all aligned with the system bypassed. Since adding this I don't ever use my HT with it disabled so this is a total non-issue for me.
Interesting. I have noticed that when my AVR is in 5.1 Multi-Analog, the speakers are dead silent. However, when I switch to 2Ch analog input and enable PLII, there is a prominent hiss that I will not be able to deal with. At All...

However, the delay is not even enough to bother with for overheads...

When I finally have a dedicated space, 9.4.6, I will be buying at lest 2 brand new AVRs since my Mains will be running off of them. The other 2 can be used but they must be transparent. Or maybe by that time, they will have AVRs out that process more Atmos channels. Next Year?..

This weekend, I will be hooking up my VOG using the last Center input and output as my Amp for 7.2.5. After that, I am done experimenting. Should work.. "in theory". If not, oh well. Back to movie watching.

Well...I have been thinking about a couple of MiniMartys!

My Media Room
AVR 1-Yamaha RX-A3050 (7.2.4), AVR 2 Pioneer VSX-815-K(Used for 4ch Amp TF+TR)
Mains-Polk Audio RTi8, Center-Polk Audio CSi5, Surrounds-Polk Audio RTi4, Ceilings-Micca M-8C, Sub 1- UM18-22 (4cu.ft DIY) - iNuke 6000DSP, Sub 2-Klipsch RW12D
Projector-BenQ 3550 4K, Screen-110" Silver Ticket STR-169110, TV-Vizio P-65 4K
rontalley is online now  
post #147 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 11:24 AM
Bass Enabler
 
Scott Simonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 21,509
Mentioned: 204 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5986 Post(s)
Liked: 5117
You're now talking about something else entirely, Rontalley.

I also get LOTS of hiss from my two PL2 decoders but I am not using the MC input. I'm using the stereo CD input cuz... why not? I was able to greatly reduce the hiss from mine by digitizing the signal. Because we are not using ceiling subwoofers, you should set all the speakers on the two PL2 receivers to LARGE. My HK receivers run full analog in that case. Well... it let in a TON of hiss. So what I did was turn on the subwoofer and set it to essentially a double bass mode. This works fine because there is no sub used anyway and the mains stay LARGE. This forces the system to digitize the signal and in my case, greatly reduced the hiss.

I can not confirm this will work the same for you but I suggest you give it a shot.

Also... do you have an open stereo analog input on your receivers that is NOT the MC input? Would certainly be less confusing to other readers if you were.


MiniMarty's, eh? Baby steps, I guess.
Scott Simonian is offline  
post #148 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 12:25 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rontalley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,222
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 809 Post(s)
Liked: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
You're now talking about something else entirely, Rontalley.

I also get LOTS of hiss from my two PL2 decoders but I am not using the MC input. I'm using the stereo CD input cuz... why not? I was able to greatly reduce the hiss from mine by digitizing the signal. Because we are not using ceiling subwoofers, you should set all the speakers on the two PL2 receivers to LARGE. My HK receivers run full analog in that case. Well... it let in a TON of hiss. So what I did was turn on the subwoofer and set it to essentially a double bass mode. This works fine because there is no sub used anyway and the mains stay LARGE. This forces the system to digitize the signal and in my case, greatly reduced the hiss.

I can not confirm this will work the same for you but I suggest you give it a shot.

Also... do you have an open stereo analog input on your receivers that is NOT the MC input? Would certainly be less confusing to other readers if you were.
Will test the digitize thingy out later. Yeah, have plenty of stereo inputs, CD being one. PLII doesn't add any hiss on my kids entertainment room Sony AVR. It was only $180..Hmm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
MiniMarty's, eh? Baby steps, I guess.
Ha! Yeah...WAF brother.

My Media Room
AVR 1-Yamaha RX-A3050 (7.2.4), AVR 2 Pioneer VSX-815-K(Used for 4ch Amp TF+TR)
Mains-Polk Audio RTi8, Center-Polk Audio CSi5, Surrounds-Polk Audio RTi4, Ceilings-Micca M-8C, Sub 1- UM18-22 (4cu.ft DIY) - iNuke 6000DSP, Sub 2-Klipsch RW12D
Projector-BenQ 3550 4K, Screen-110" Silver Ticket STR-169110, TV-Vizio P-65 4K
rontalley is online now  
post #149 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 01:29 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 3,918
Mentioned: 342 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2698 Post(s)
Liked: 3692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Yup. Two avenues of solution if you own a Yamaha as your main Atmos system. There is two "Patterns" and numerous "scenes" to set. Not sure if the "scenes" work with different speaker configurations though. I think everything but those settings are an option. I'd have to look into them further to know, myself.
Sure they do speaker setup is one of the thing you can save on scenes.

Like i have a two channel stereo setup on pattern one, saved to scene one, and a 5 channel multi ch in on pattern two saved on scene two.
You can even save different lipsync on scenes.

It is actually genious.
Scott Simonian likes this.

Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
Nalleh’s HT
Nalleh is online now  
post #150 of 2169 Old 02-17-2016, 02:27 PM
Member
 
howieshel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 160
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Rontalley

Thanks for helping me out. My subs are coming out of my 3050, one is split to my left and right deff tech bp2000's with LFE, the other goes to my rear sub, I thought about splitting that one because I'm sure the bass signals are coming out with what the butt shakers need to vibrate but the splitter is a coaxial cable and what is coming from the 4 butt shakers is a single speaker wire. So not sure if a speaker wire to coaxial conversion is it or how do I get the buttshakers hooked into the 3050, this is why I did the buttshaker wire into the front left main red & black speaker post. So i don't know if the way I have it hooked up now will even work because I'm waiting for a TV so i can calibrate the sound to see if this will in-fact do Anything for the buttshakers or not.

The shakers are Max 50watts each, serial-parallel wired so it becomes a single speaker wire going to the 3050.

Hope this helps explain it better.
howieshel is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off