Beyond 7.1.4... Multi-AVR set-up for Immersive Audio - Page 54 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1591 of 2062 Old 09-12-2018, 02:29 PM
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Well, the new Onkyo did NOT have the remote included as advertised (I'm having a few words with the seller), but otherwise, at least this one doesn't smell funny and it has the identical output of the other one. With an additional remote control module plugged in, I can now turn both of them and the subwoofer on with my 5-device RF remote (which also controls room lighting and atmospheric (ceiling) projections; Hollywood stars downstairs and plasma clouds in the Carver room). I then applied the DIM LED strips to the Onkyo units and my large LED clock (that I bought after ditching my cable boxes along with cable too). Now they're tolerable in the dark.

Unfortunately, it was the speaker selector box that was loose at the connector, but I think I have it locked down for now (I'd have to take it apart to totally tighten it; as long as no one tugs on it, it's OK). I've tested both modes (move rear to side heights and duplicate to back; no need to move top middle to back, but you 'could' do it).

9.1.6 sounds pretty darn good.... (Edit: 11.1.6 sounds even better!)

Still need to hide wires, etc. and neat & tidy and still waiting on furniture, etc. and still keeping an eye out for 2 more T45 in Black Ash for Front L/R to match new center (ordered two, but the guy disappeared; has the same drivers as the B15, though, just one less woofer and a smaller case on the B15). Once all the furniture is in, it will have 3 seats in front (looking at a curved powered set), 2 in the middle and one in the back (3 28" powered recline leather chairs on order).

Here's some photos:


"MagnaTRON 11.1.6" in a 12x24 Room

Left Rack (Top To Bottom, L to R) Underline = Shelf below:
NVidia Shield (with KODI), AppleTV 4K, Zidoo X9S 3D MVC Capable Media Player
Sony PS4 (just below Shield)
Onkyo ES-600Pro ("Top Middle" Height Left)
Marantz SR7010 AVR with Auro3D Upgrade (EDIT 11-9-18: Now SR7012)
Pioneer Laserdisc CLD-D501 (With Side Change)

Right Rack (Top To Bottom L to R):
Monoprice A/B 2-channel IN/Out With Volume Selector Box
LG UP875 UHD BD Player
Onkyo ES-600 Pro ("Top Middle" Height Right)
Yamaha HTR-5960 AVR (Front Height, Front Wide and Rear Height Amplification)
3x Rolls Active Mini-Mixers (Top for Rear Wide Matrixed; Middle for Front Wide Matrixed; Bottom for FL+FR+C+LH+RH for Dialog Lift + Atmos/X/Auro Height)
SMSL SA50 50Wx2 Amp (for Rear Wides)
Nintendo GameCube
Large LED Clock

Speakers:

Bed Speakers
Left/Right Mains = PSB T45 (Black)
Center = PSB T45 (Black)
Front Wides = PSB B15 (Black)
Side Surround = PSB B15 (Maple)
Rear Wides = PSB B15 (Black)
Rear Surrounds = PSB X1T (Black)

Height Speakers
Front Heights = PSB B15 (Maple)
Side Heights = PSB S50 Bipolars (White)
Rear Heights = PSB CS500 (White)

Subwoofer = DefTech PF1500 15" 250W (20Hz-80Hz)

Projector: Epson 3100 3D/2K
Screen: DaLite 92"

EDIT: New Photos edited with 2nd/3rd row chairs and movie posters added (Nov-22-2018)
EDIT2: New Photo of new rocking recliners added to room (now seats 6) (Dec-10-2018)
EDIT3: PSB T45 speakers replace B15s in front main L/R positions. PSB B15s replace Def Tech BP2s at side surround position. New Pics Added (12-14-2018)
EDIT4: New wedge table added between MLP and front right with cup holders and 120V outlets and USB charging ports; New Photos of Front overview; some older photos removed (Dec-23-2018)
-Still waiting on new heat/massage chair for 2nd row center position....

EDIT5: "Rear Wides" B15s have arrived to make it 11.1.6 (new photos soon). Added speaker angle diagram. (Dec-28-2018)
EDIT6: Photos of Rear Wides and new Front/Rear and equipment rack images added/changed (Dec-29-2018)
EDIT7: Photo of new middle row center recliner chair with heat, lumbar, power and 'airbag' based massage added (Jan-15-2019)
EDIT8: Photos removed and added back reorganized by view of looking around room (Jan-16-2019)
EDIT9: Newer Photos added and reorganized (April-9-2019)
EDIT10: Newer Overall Room Photos showing new Movie Props in place and some new viewpoints (May-22-2019)
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Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-21-19)

Last edited by MagnumX; 05-22-2019 at 01:56 PM. Reason: New Additions
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post #1592 of 2062 Old 09-12-2018, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
That's a crazy amount of equipment, especially duplicating it with AVRs. I love that equipment rack. Do you have photos of the rest of your system or a link to them I could look at?
Here is a few. Most all the speakers are behind/screen/Pilar’s/ ceiling artifact etc. The walls are acoustically treated, fabric covered . You asked for photos magnumx . Just added that 18” rythmik sub just under the center speaker.
Four 15” rythmik subs and the newly added 18” . There’s four 15” rythmik subs at the back wall...NO....corner loaded
subs in my theater by design. Room is simply “LOUD ” yet clear. Dialogue clear. Room is 15’x24’,ceilings 8’.

PeterV
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post #1593 of 2062 Old 09-12-2018, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonleepenn View Post
Here is a few. Most all the speakers are behind/screen/Pilar’s/ ceiling artifact etc. The walls are acoustically treated, fabric covered . You asked for photos magnumx . Just added that 18” rythmik sub just under the center speaker.
Four 15” rythmik subs and the newly added 18” . There’s four 15” rythmik subs at the back wall...NO....corner loaded
subs in my theater by design. Room is simply “LOUD ” yet clear. Dialogue clear. Room is 15’x24’,ceilings 8’.

PeterV
Killer system dude. I now feel utterly inadequate once again.

Fortunately, my system looks a lot better in the dark than with the lights on.

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-21-19)
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post #1594 of 2062 Old 09-12-2018, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
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Killer system dude. I now feel utterly inadequate once again.

Fortunately, my system looks a lot better in the dark than with the lights on.
Your setup is very cool, anyone would be happy with that setup myself included. What you see in mine is years of wanting it to be a place to chill with my wife. And to get her there, it had to have her seal of esthetic approval.
For me a media style like yours and Nalleh’s would be very cool. My den has a full setup with all reference paradigm
speakers and sub. 7.1.5 layout with the denon avr6200 and a 75” 4k sony... soon to change to a oled Sony. I got nothing
better to do i’m retired and don’t travel....so it’s ht stuff

PeterV
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post #1595 of 2062 Old 09-12-2018, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonleepenn View Post
Your setup is very cool, anyone would be happy with that setup myself included.
Nice of you to say, at least.

Quote:
What you see in mine is years of wanting it to be a place to chill with my wife.
Where's the loveseat? That 2-seater in the back could have been a loveseat.

Oh wait. You said 'chill' not turn up the heat.

Seriously, I've been looking at those theater style chairs. The issue I have is the room isn't quite wide enough to have a good amount of room to walk left over if I do 3 in the front. It's why I ordered 28" wide recliners for the second row as they will leave enough space to walk between them (there's an outboard fireplace on the right side so no chair there). With the sliding door in the back and the edge of the fireplace's brick floor (where wood used to sit; it's now gas converted), I can only put one recliner in the back (3rd row). I did find this one set at Great Escape that has angled chairs on the left/right with a straight on one in the middle. The middle seat is manual recline (which I prefer for myself since I'd likely wear a powered on out). It has USB charging and 120V outlets in the armrests and isn't quite as wide as the theater ones with the LED lighting. It's just a question of how much space is enough to walk into the room to get to them (that end table with the lamp might have to go; I hate to ditch it because for some reason aiming the subwoofer straight into it balances the bass out in the room unbelievably well (tried all kinds of positions when I first set it up 12 years ago and that's what worked; now with EQ and a second sub, I might be able to ditch it (that wall kind of rattles a bit on some notes for some reason anyway; I'd prefer to move the sub elsewhere, like right behind the couch to shake the crap out of it.

It does occur to me there's one angular "hole" left in my room and that's between the side surround and rear surround speakers. It's probably 10 feet away whereas the side to wides is only 4 feet away and 4 more to the fronts. That "Amaze" demo has that bird moving a bit less smoothly between the left side and rear surrounds whereas it moves with silky precision from the right side halfway into the front of the room and changes direction flying back towards the left surround (while rising in height a bit if I'm not mistaken there and in the back of the room sound like upward arcs, but it's subtle; the bird doesn't go all the way to the ceiling). Since the front wides are matrixed, it'd be similarly easy to matrix a set of rear "wides" (or whatever you'd call a set of speakers between the side surround and rear surround speakers) and I could set them just before the half bathroom takes up part of the left wall and move the speakers inward part way so the bird moves in nice circular arc into the back of the room (it'd sound like it would fly right through the bathroom). I'm out of amplification (one channel left; center on the Yamaha, which I thought I might add an actual VOG speaker with) so I'd have to find a small 2-channel amp to power it (and yay, even more wires going over the doorway!).

11.2.6 has a nice ring to it, though....

Quote:
And to get her there, it had to have her seal of esthetic approval.
For me a media style like yours and Nalleh’s would be very cool. My den has a full setup with all reference paradigm
speakers and sub. 7.1.5 layout with the denon avr6200 and a 75” 4k sony... soon to change to a oled Sony. I got nothing
better to do i’m retired and don’t travel....so it’s ht stuff

PeterV
Yeah, the traveling thing is doing me in the past nine years.... I could have easily bought a Trinnov, really for the price of the just the past few years. I've been to 10 countries (not counting Caribbean Islands), 26 states (although not all in that time frame), all points of the Bermuda Triangle (including sailing through the middle of it where I could tell you a story about the strange things I saw that evening), almost every filming location in the Da Vinci Code (save the French Chateaux), stayed at the Hotel where the Cannonball Run started/ended (in 1&2) (i.e. The Portofino in Redondo Beach), Alaska, Yukon Territory and three Continents. I've drank Columbian Coffee in Columbia (I enjoyed holding a 3 toed sloth more that trip, though), visited the Panama Canal on its 100th Anniversary, visited Hamburg, Germany on its 827th year port anniversary (quite a party) and ate rum cakes in the Grand Caymans. I went to a coffee plantation resort in Costa Rica, saw Steve Jobs' custom yacht while in Saint Martin and drove a boat in Aruba. I went air boat riding in Miami, hot air ballooning over Cottonwood, Arizona, stayed in haunted hotel in Jerome (and Niagara on the Lake for that matter), went boat riding in Lake Havasu, Lake Powell and Loch Ness plus the Niagara River, the Seine and the Thames and a road a huge cruise ship down the Elbe River in Germany. I ate waffles and drank fruit beer in Belgium, bangars and mash in Dublin and London. Fish & Chips in Edinburgh, Winchester and London and Sticky Toffee Pudding (cake) in more places than I can recall in the UK and Canada. I've visited the 9-11 memorial, ate New York pizza in New York, had a butler and Penthouse in a cruise out of Manhattan and visited the original Starbucks in Seattle and the Anchor Bar in Buffalo. I rented a 180 year old cottage in Niagara-on-the-Lake (with 300 year old beams from the original that burned in 1812) and flew in a sea plane over Parry Sound (while on the way there driving a 305HP WRX well over the speed limit past a Mounty too busy eating a donut from Tim Hortons to notice....

Those are just some of the things I've done just since 2009.... I also wrote and recorded a rock album during that time. (good thing I don't have kids) I suppose the Trinnov would last longer, but hell you only live twice (or so it seems), so might as well make some memories and try to live a couple of dreams.
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Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-21-19)
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post #1596 of 2062 Old 09-13-2018, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonleepenn View Post
Here is a few. Most all the speakers are behind/screen/Pilar’s/ ceiling artifact etc. The walls are acoustically treated, fabric covered . You asked for photos magnumx . Just added that 18” rythmik sub just under the center speaker.
Four 15” rythmik subs and the newly added 18” . There’s four 15” rythmik subs at the back wall...NO....corner loaded
subs in my theater by design. Room is simply “LOUD ” yet clear. Dialogue clear. Room is 15’x24’,ceilings 8’.

PeterV

Great looking room. If you don't mind me asking, how did you get the ceiling to look like that? Thanks
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Great looking room. If you don't mind me asking, how did you get the ceiling to look like that? Thanks
If you mean the ceiling part in my theater that has lights..black paint with a slight satin finish. The lights are
5050 led inside the soffit...they can strobe in many different ways if that’s your thing. Or just provide solid color lighting. Then I got a fabric with the nebula inprinted , put together a wood frame wrapped the material over it.
It had to be big enough around 8’x8’, put different led lights (Christmas type) inside which creates a space galaxy
pushing thru the fabric. It looks cool...hung it connected to my remote. Looks like space when the room lights are off.
Esthetics,makes for a nice atmosphere in the theater.

PeterV
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post #1598 of 2062 Old 09-13-2018, 08:51 AM
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Nice of you to say, at least.



Where's the loveseat? That 2-seater in the back could have been a loveseat.

Oh wait. You said 'chill' not turn up the heat.

Seriously, I've been looking at those theater style chairs. The issue I have is the room isn't quite wide enough to have a good amount of room to walk left over if I do 3 in the front. It's why I ordered 28" wide recliners for the second row as they will leave enough space to walk between them (there's an outboard fireplace on the right side so no chair there). With the sliding door in the back and the edge of the fireplace's brick floor (where wood used to sit; it's now gas converted), I can only put one recliner in the back (3rd row). I did find this one set at Great Escape that has angled chairs on the left/right with a straight on one in the middle. The middle seat is manual recline (which I prefer for myself since I'd likely wear a powered on out). It has USB charging and 120V outlets in the armrests and isn't quite as wide as the theater ones with the LED lighting. It's just a question of how much space is enough to walk into the room to get to them (that end table with the lamp might have to go; I hate to ditch it because for some reason aiming the subwoofer straight into it balances the bass out in the room unbelievably well (tried all kinds of positions when I first set it up 12 years ago and that's what worked; now with EQ and a second sub, I might be able to ditch it (that wall kind of rattles a bit on some notes for some reason anyway; I'd prefer to move the sub elsewhere, like right behind the couch to shake the crap out of it.

It does occur to me there's one angular "hole" left in my room and that's between the side surround and rear surround speakers. It's probably 10 feet away whereas the side to wides is only 4 feet away and 4 more to the fronts. That "Amaze" demo has that bird moving a bit less smoothly between the left side and rear surrounds whereas it moves with silky precision from the right side halfway into the front of the room and changes direction flying back towards the left surround (while rising in height a bit if I'm not mistaken there and in the back of the room sound like upward arcs, but it's subtle; the bird doesn't go all the way to the ceiling). Since the front wides are matrixed, it'd be similarly easy to matrix a set of rear "wides" (or whatever you'd call a set of speakers between the side surround and rear surround speakers) and I could set them just before the half bathroom takes up part of the left wall and move the speakers inward part way so the bird moves in nice circular arc into the back of the room (it'd sound like it would fly right through the bathroom). I'm out of amplification (one channel left; center on the Yamaha, which I thought I might add an actual VOG speaker with) so I'd have to find a small 2-channel amp to power it (and yay, even more wires going over the doorway!).

11.2.6 has a nice ring to it, though....
Sounds like you’ve done some serious thinking in your setup...rattles can be a problem if there are objects not bolted down. I can hear some rattles in my den setup from what is on top of tables etc.


Yeah, the traveling thing is doing me in the past nine years.... I could have easily bought a Trinnov, really for the price of the just the past few years. I've been to 10 countries (not counting Caribbean Islands), 26 states (although not all in that time frame), all points of the Bermuda Triangle (including sailing through the middle of it where I could tell you a story about the strange things I saw that evening), almost every filming location in the Da Vinci Code (save the French Chateaux), stayed at the Hotel where the Cannonball Run started/ended (in 1&2) (i.e. The Portofino in Redondo Beach), Alaska, Yukon Territory and three Continents. I've drank Columbian Coffee in Columbia (I enjoyed holding a 3 toed sloth more that trip, though), visited the Panama Canal on its 100th Anniversary, visited Hamburg, Germany on its 827th year port anniversary (quite a party) and ate rum cakes in the Grand Caymans. I went to a coffee plantation resort in Costa Rica, saw Steve Jobs' custom yacht while in Saint Martin and drove a boat in Aruba. I went air boat riding in Miami, hot air ballooning over Cottonwood, Arizona, stayed in haunted hotel in Jerome (and Niagara on the Lake for that matter), went boat riding in Lake Havasu, Lake Powell and Loch Ness plus the Niagara River, the Seine and the Thames and a road a huge cruise ship down the Elbe River in Germany. I ate waffles and drank fruit beer in Belgium, bangars and mash in Dublin and London. Fish & Chips in Edinburgh, Winchester and London and Sticky Toffee Pudding (cake) in more places than I can recall in the UK and Canada. I've visited the 9-11 memorial, ate New York pizza in New York, had a butler and Penthouse in a cruise out of Manhattan and visited the original Starbucks in Seattle and the Anchor Bar in Buffalo. I rented a 180 year old cottage in Niagara-on-the-Lake (with 300 year old beams from the original that burned in 1812) and flew in a sea plane over Parry Sound (while on the way there driving a 305HP WRX well over the speed limit past a Mounty too busy eating a donut from Tim Hortons to notice....

Those are just some of the things I've done just since 2009.... I also wrote and recorded a rock album during that time. (good thing I don't have kids) I suppose the Trinnov would last longer, but hell you only live twice (or so it seems), so might as well make some memories and try to live a couple of dreams.
Traveling is just not my thing..to many logistics and evil lurking at airports... I know from the work I did.
There are places i’d Like to go in the future..ISRAEL !

PeterV
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post #1599 of 2062 Old 09-13-2018, 11:01 AM
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inspired by this thread i finally pulled my old Sony TA-E9000ES from the basement and increased the 7.2.4 to a 7.2.5 system.
short: it's the best thing i've done in this space since years! I'm angry with myself why i haven't done it much earlier...

the "old" system is in a roughly 15x25x8ft room with the screen at a shorter end and main seating position 12ft away from it.
the lower system consists of Audio Physic speakers (Avanti 3, Avanti RR Center, "small" Avanti3 (unique pieces without the 4 subwoofer chassis) surround and Tempo3 back surround) at nearly optimal positions.
the upper system is/was based on 4 AudioPro Bravo FX01 located at the side walls directly beyond the ceiling at the 30° elevation positions.

all powered by a Yamaha MX-A5000 11-channel amp which i modified to switch between XLR and RCA inputs via wifi/remote. Connected to the XLR is a Yamaha CX-A5100 and the RCA a Marantz 7009 as Auro3D decoder.

now i added an Audio Physic Celsius (unique as well: sealed, same midrange/tweeter as front/surround/center) as height center, powered by a simple stereo amp. It located at the ceiling in front of the screen (the active part starts low enough) with provisional mounts (no pictures, for sure).
the front height connections from the CX-A (i haven't completed it for the Marantz yet) are connected to stereo inputs on the TA-E9000, its front out go to the XLR input (via adapter) to the MX-A the center out to the stereo amp for the height center.

with adequate test signals from a separate source (not that easy, since the TA-E9000 accepts DD/dts SD only and has no HDMI input just S/PDIF) i adjusted the distance settings for the Sony.
with these settings i could run a normal YPAO measurement. YPAO addresses only one height speaker at the time. With the Sony running in ProLogic mode it directs this signal to only one speaker as well.
but if both front height speakers are addressed with the same signal its directed to the new height center with the according delay/time correction.
I need to figure out how to get the angle measurement right. Since the FH are nearer to the MLP than the height center they are delayed by the Sony and so the Yamaha measures them farer away as they are. For the pure time correction that's correct, the delay exists. But the angle measurement is "a little bit confused".

I started with 6.1.2 18 years ago with the Yamaha AX-1. Since 10 years i'm using 7.2.4 started with the Z11, CX-A5000 and now 5100 (+Marantz).
and from the beginning with the Z11 (came together with the first projector) the Dialog Lift function was one of the (if not THE) most appreciated features at all!
due to the very low reverb times in the room (from 200Hz to 20kHz about or below 200ms) and the speaker quality (i tried a lot, believe me) the sound and speech quality was good even with higher DL values.
but i have to admit: with higher values (usually i set DL to 2 or 3) the center sound was a little bit blurred, still fine but compared to a single center less precise.

now i'm really overwhelmed!
there's nearly no difference in the sound itself between single center and Dialog Lift with (high quality) center below and above the screen, the sound just moves up, nothing else.

Again, why haven't i done this before?
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post #1600 of 2062 Old 09-13-2018, 01:00 PM
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I can't fit a top center too well here, but that does give me another idea... rear surround center. I now have an extra Onkyo unit (musty smell notwithstanding). I could create rear surround center and lock the center position down (would help for all off-center seats to nail the sounds in that region. Or alternatively, I could add rear height center (and use the second of the pair for the VOG, which for intensive purposes is middle height center with Auro3D material). Yeah, a top center and rear surround center would then cover all "centered" angles. The sound in the room would image correctly for every single seat. Throw in the mid-surround backs matrixed in and there wouldn't be more than a 40 degree angle anywhere in the system. I'd have to take the laserdisc player out to make room for more Onkyo units (need 2 plus another amp for matrixed rear wides and I already have the amp/channel for VOG).

That would be at least 12.1.8 (only VOG wouldn't work in all modes, although that could be solved by extracting it instead from the middle heights instead). In fact, I'm thinking what would the out of phase mono outputs from the middle heights Onkyo processors be equivalent to? There's actually already 25 watt amps for those mono speakers. Typically, in a dolby system, the out of phase information goes to a rear mono channel. Well, rear mono relative to the middle height is the center of the room when it comes from both sides. I don't know how sharp the image would be (typically nebulous in a Pro Logic system), but I wonder how that would sound from a speaker in the middle of the room? If I had a speaker already mounted there, I'd try it just to find out.

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-21-19)
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post #1601 of 2062 Old 09-14-2018, 07:36 AM
 
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I think I need 1million dollar to buy a new house. can anybody donate some money to me. lol
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post #1602 of 2062 Old 09-14-2018, 10:47 AM
 
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inspired by this thread i finally pulled my old Sony TA-E9000ES from the basement and increased the 7.2.4 to a 7.2.5 system.
short: it's the best thing i've done in this space since years! I'm angry with myself why i haven't done it much earlier...

the "old" system is in a roughly 15x25x8ft room with the screen at a shorter end and main seating position 12ft away from it.
the lower system consists of Audio Physic speakers (Avanti 3, Avanti RR Center, "small" Avanti3 (unique pieces without the 4 subwoofer chassis) surround and Tempo3 back surround) at nearly optimal positions.
the upper system is/was based on 4 AudioPro Bravo FX01 located at the side walls directly beyond the ceiling at the 30° elevation positions.

all powered by a Yamaha MX-A5000 11-channel amp which i modified to switch between XLR and RCA inputs via wifi/remote. Connected to the XLR is a Yamaha CX-A5100 and the RCA a Marantz 7009 as Auro3D decoder.

now i added an Audio Physic Celsius (unique as well: sealed, same midrange/tweeter as front/surround/center) as height center, powered by a simple stereo amp. It located at the ceiling in front of the screen (the active part starts low enough) with provisional mounts (no pictures, for sure).
the front height connections from the CX-A (i haven't completed it for the Marantz yet) are connected to stereo inputs on the TA-E9000, its front out go to the XLR input (via adapter) to the MX-A the center out to the stereo amp for the height center.

with adequate test signals from a separate source (not that easy, since the TA-E9000 accepts DD/dts SD only and has no HDMI input just S/PDIF) i adjusted the distance settings for the Sony.
with these settings i could run a normal YPAO measurement. YPAO addresses only one height speaker at the time. With the Sony running in ProLogic mode it directs this signal to only one speaker as well.
but if both front height speakers are addressed with the same signal its directed to the new height center with the according delay/time correction.
I need to figure out how to get the angle measurement right. Since the FH are nearer to the MLP than the height center they are delayed by the Sony and so the Yamaha measures them farer away as they are. For the pure time correction that's correct, the delay exists. But the angle measurement is "a little bit confused".

I started with 6.1.2 18 years ago with the Yamaha AX-1. Since 10 years i'm using 7.2.4 started with the Z11, CX-A5000 and now 5100 (+Marantz).
and from the beginning with the Z11 (came together with the first projector) the Dialog Lift function was one of the (if not THE) most appreciated features at all!
due to the very low reverb times in the room (from 200Hz to 20kHz about or below 200ms) and the speaker quality (i tried a lot, believe me) the sound and speech quality was good even with higher DL values.
but i have to admit: with higher values (usually i set DL to 2 or 3) the center sound was a little bit blurred, still fine but compared to a single center less precise.

now i'm really overwhelmed!
there's nearly no difference in the sound itself between single center and Dialog Lift with (high quality) center below and above the screen, the sound just moves up, nothing else.

Again, why haven't i done this before?

what is the advantage of top center speaker?
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post #1603 of 2062 Old 09-14-2018, 02:06 PM
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what is the advantage of top center speaker?
Direct dialog lift of the lower center speaker (so it comes from the screen, not below it). Combine lower + upper = middle.
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Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-21-19)
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post #1604 of 2062 Old 09-14-2018, 02:43 PM
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Exactly!
Dialog Lifts works pretty well with a center below and two front height/presence speakers left and right above the screen ... as long as you sit exactly at the MLP the system is configured for (distance correction). And even then there are 3 speakers in use which makes the sound some kind of blurry.
As soon as you move to a seat beside the MLP it's not that perfect anymore.
With FH at the side walls to get more elevation angle it's getting worse.

The distance difference between height and bottom center stays the same while moving sideways. That is the advantage!
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post #1605 of 2062 Old 09-14-2018, 05:51 PM
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Exactly!
Dialog Lifts works pretty well with a center below and two front height/presence speakers left and right above the screen ... as long as you sit exactly at the MLP the system is configured for (distance correction). And even then there are 3 speakers in use which makes the sound some kind of blurry.
Blurry? Why would it be blurry? I assume you're referring to the Yamaha "dialog lift" modes? Yeah, the thing there is they were ALWAYS accompanied with some stupid "DSP" mode that sucked to hell. I quickly discovered using an active mixer you could recreate the effect with no DSP mode and it's clear as a bell here. Yeah, it doesn't work quite as well off-center (pulls slightly to one side of center), but it's still better IMO than no dialog lift (i.e. coming from below the screen that makes no sense at all). But if you have the same speakers/drivers, it should be clear as a bell regardless if you're using 4 speakers (and sitting center) or just one. Blur indicates some other kind of problem present. Speakers within a few feet of each other combine as one phantom image. They don't "blur" or using matrixed wides would "blur" the image as well with stereo material (if anything, I have a hard time telling they're even turned on from the MLP).

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As soon as you move to a seat beside the MLP it's not that perfect anymore.
To be fair, panned dialog will not work with just top center and bottom center. You have to lift the entire front soundstage, which is why I lift L + C + FHL and R + C + FHR. This keeps a consistent phantom image across the entire screen from left to right. Yes, it would be even better if it were only L+FHL, C+TC and R+FHR as that would keep the effect perfectly even for all seats, but if you're not lifting left and right to front height left and front height right, it will be a mess in movies like Toy Story.

Quote:
With FH at the side walls to get more elevation angle it's getting worse.
How do the side walls get more of an elevation angle? It either has to go higher up the wall (if you have a higher ceiling than screen) or further into the room (towards the listening couch), which is then out of the plane of the screen. You can correct that distance to some degree with a timing delay.

Even without a top center (I'd use one if I could fit it, but the screen goes all the way to the ceiling here), I still keep the heights pretty much in line with the bottom speakers. The only one affected is the center (i.e. L/R are lifted evenly regardless of position in the room; center pulls slightly left/right of center sitting in the left/right seat of center, but it still at least 2/3 the way to the center of the screen. Given most movies don't have dialog lift, it doesn't exactly matter whether the dialog is perfectly centered since the voices don't come from their mouths anyway if the people aren't centered on the screen (i.e. I'd rather it come from somewhere on the screen than perfectly centered BELOW the screen (plus most of the time I'm the only one watching anyway from the MLP where it is centered regardless and half my family don't even notice such thing to begin with so they couldn't care less).

Even then, there's no vertical dialog panning in any movies that I'm aware of so it will only ever truly come out of their mouths if they are centered on screen (my #1 complaint about "3D Immersive Sound" that it still doesn't place dialog and other objects with their correct position on the screen itself, not even at the theater with speakers behind the screen. It would need vertical and horizontal panning to do so. At home, if you have a very small screen you won't notice because the sound image will be the size of the entire screen in those cases, although then dialog panned movies are absurd sounding with the voices moving past the screen edge while the people on the screen can't move any further due to the small screen.

Quote:
The distance difference between height and bottom center stays the same while moving sideways. That is the advantage!
That was my original point. It has a solidified imaging advantage over using two overheads to phantom the center. I believe my Yamaha did lift the entire front stage, though, not just the center. My complaint was it only did it in those stupid DSP modes which all added unwanted reverb/echo that 100% without exception sounded WORSE than the original soundtrack by itself. It's one of the reasons I went with simulated dialog lift using an active mixer instead (the other being I wanted Auro3D and Yamaha didn't offer it on a single model).

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-21-19)
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Exactly!
Dialog Lifts works pretty well with a center below and two front height/presence speakers left and right above the screen ... as long as you sit exactly at the MLP the system is configured for (distance correction). And even then there are 3 speakers in use which makes the sound some kind of blurry.
As soon as you move to a seat beside the MLP it's not that perfect anymore.
With FH at the side walls to get more elevation angle it's getting worse.

The distance difference between height and bottom center stays the same while moving sideways. That is the advantage!
http://www.analogueseduction.net/cat...er-stands.html
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post #1607 of 2062 Old 09-14-2018, 08:24 PM
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I can't fit a top center too well here, but that does give me another idea... rear surround center. I now have an extra Onkyo unit (musty smell notwithstanding). I could create rear surround center and lock the center position down (would help for all off-center seats to nail the sounds in that region. Or alternatively, I could add rear height center (and use the second of the pair for the VOG, which for intensive purposes is middle height center with Auro3D material). Yeah, a top center and rear surround center would then cover all "centered" angles. The sound in the room would image correctly for every single seat. Throw in the mid-surround backs matrixed in and there wouldn't be more than a 40 degree angle anywhere in the system. I'd have to take the laserdisc player out to make room for more Onkyo units (need 2 plus another amp for matrixed rear wides and I already have the amp/channel for VOG).

That would be at least 12.1.8 (only VOG wouldn't work in all modes, although that could be solved by extracting it instead from the middle heights instead). In fact, I'm thinking what would the out of phase mono outputs from the middle heights Onkyo processors be equivalent to? There's actually already 25 watt amps for those mono speakers. Typically, in a dolby system, the out of phase information goes to a rear mono channel. Well, rear mono relative to the middle height is the center of the room when it comes from both sides. I don't know how sharp the image would be (typically nebulous in a Pro Logic system), but I wonder how that would sound from a speaker in the middle of the room? If I had a speaker already mounted there, I'd try it just to find out.

The experience of a rear center (height or otherwise) will be disappointing from the MLP IMO.


The typical claim is that sound coming from directly behind the head is poorly localized because the pinnea is long in that direction and it filters out much of the directional cue information in the higher frequencies (rear height center might be even worse in that regard due to the even longer pinnea in that direction).


That implied claim of vaguely localized to the rear has not been my experience however.


I find that rear center channel in my 6.1 system just confuses the surround imaging from the MLP. This is because it doesn't sound like the rear center is playing vaguely behind me. It sounds like it is playing inside my head.


Maybe it has something to do with my hearing loss too. YMMV.



I find that sitting off-center in such a system helps with the sense of imaging and ambiance. Sitting on-center just sounds vaguely off and the rear channel is not localized to the rear at all. Even cranking the level won't take it outside of my head, it just gets worse by muddying up the imaging more.


For off-center seating positions, sure, that rear center will help. If your MLP is centered you might be better off without the rear center.


You can test for this issue by sitting backwards in the center of your home theater while there is dialog etc. playing from your front center in a movie sound mode (no panoramic blending of channels to create a continuous sound stage like there is in music mode). If you hear your center speaker coming from 'all inside the head' like you are wearing headphones, that's probably what a rear center channel will sound like too.


The rear center imaging might actually be superior from a centered MLP if you have two rear channels rather than one, but I can't say from experience what it will be like with three rear channels. You should just try sitting backwards first before you invest the time in wiring it, unless you rarely sit in the exact center of your theater anyway, then maybe it will help all seats. Whether it helps all seats would depend on the physical location of your seating.
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post #1608 of 2062 Old 09-14-2018, 09:23 PM
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a wiseman somewhere once said....... simplicity is the first step of nature ;-)

not to say that a multi AVR setup can't be good but just as with anything in life there's always that fine line...... you make things too complex and finer details becomes lost


I've walked down that path before
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post #1609 of 2062 Old 09-15-2018, 05:39 AM
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Blurry? Why would it be blurry? I assume you're referring to the Yamaha "dialog lift" modes?
i believe it's not difficult to notice i'm no native english speaking person and never lived in an english speaking country. Please be gentle with me and the words i'm choosing

if you split a signal destined for a single speaker to more than one it always "a little bit more blurry" compared to a single speaker. Even a large 3-way speaker can't be used a near field monitor since the sound is dispersed not from one small single point.
if you have two identical speakers in the identical distance it's ok.

now to Yamaha Dialog Lift: the standard configuration uses even three speakers for a sound exactly from the middle (without DL from the center only, unfortunately below the screen)
as long as you sit exactly at the sweet spot and the different distances are corrected accordingly it's still fine but a little bit more blurry.
switch DL to 0 and the sound is a really small spot, increase DL, the sound spot raises but "grows" as well.
and if you move to seat left ore right the distances don't match anymore and the whole thing gets worse.

please don't get me wrong! It's still better than without Dialog Lift!
but with a height center and splitting the dialog to two speakers instead of three and both keep the distance if you switch seats.
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post #1610 of 2062 Old 09-15-2018, 05:45 AM
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a wiseman somewhere once said....... simplicity is the first step of nature ;-)
i would phrase it this way:
It's always a good idea to start with a simple setup
BUT there's nothing wrong to diagnose the weak spots, think about it, do target oriented enhancements and compare the result with the previous state.

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I've walked down that path before
every room, every speaker and of course everyones taste is different
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post #1611 of 2062 Old 09-15-2018, 09:40 AM
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All I'll say is that I thought it actually got clearer sounding when I added the dialog lift effect. I could actually tell when my left and right speakers were out of alignment by comparing the center + height to left/right alone + height (full phantom). When they were in exact alignment, they sounded identical with a track like Bill Withers, "Ain't No Sunshine" with his voice in the middle at the start. When they were off, the center would sound clearer than the left/right speakers. But that was also true when the center was louder. They had to be level matched exactly.

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-21-19)
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a wiseman somewhere once said....... simplicity is the first step of nature ;-)

not to say that a multi AVR setup can't be good but just as with anything in life there's always that fine line...... you make things too complex and finer details becomes lost


I've walked down that path before
can you find me a single avr do 9.2.6 atmos without any amp? that is my simplicity standard.

hint
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...ro-thread.html

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post #1613 of 2062 Old 09-15-2018, 04:44 PM
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Seems you already found your answer there. Good luck with it. Emotiva has been promising the moon for a long time now. They're not so good at delivering it.

It also won't work with pre-rendered Atmos or DTS beyond 11 channels. The best thing about extracted pro logic or even matrixed channels is they work with everything, even Auro 3D. Simplicity isn't always as simple as it appears to be....
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Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-21-19)

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If you mean the ceiling part in my theater that has lights..black paint with a slight satin finish. The lights are
5050 led inside the soffit...they can strobe in many different ways if that’s your thing. Or just provide solid color lighting. Then I got a fabric with the nebula inprinted , put together a wood frame wrapped the material over it.
It had to be big enough around 8’x8’, put different led lights (Christmas type) inside which creates a space galaxy
pushing thru the fabric. It looks cool...hung it connected to my remote. Looks like space when the room lights are off.
Esthetics,makes for a nice atmosphere in the theater.

PeterV
Love that ceiling. Nice job! Do mine?

What if I get some Milliskin(?) spandex, stretch it, and silkscreen something on it?
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post #1615 of 2062 Old 09-16-2018, 08:48 AM
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Love that ceiling. Nice job! Do mine?

What if I get some Milliskin(?) spandex, stretch it, and silkscreen something on it?
Thanks, if your in ny i’d consider doing yours. Spandex may work!


PeterV
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post #1616 of 2062 Old 09-16-2018, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey Mouse View Post
if you split a signal destined for a single speaker to more than one it always "a little bit more blurry" compared to a single speaker. Even a large 3-way speaker can't be used a near field monitor since the sound is dispersed not from one small single point.
if you have two identical speakers in the identical distance it's ok.
In my apartment, sitting 7' from 3-way towers up front had its issues. Yes, the sound was somewhat fragmented. It was even worse sitting 5' from 3-way towers to the sides and rear, particularly with the front and rear woofers partially obstructed. The side towers were poorly place for bass.

It's not just how widely spread the drivers are and how far away, but also the path the sound takes through the room acoustics, that matter.

The acoustics are better now that I'm back in my house. Under construction.

Quote:
now to Yamaha Dialog Lift: the standard configuration uses even three speakers for a sound exactly from the middle (without DL from the center only, unfortunately below the screen)

as long as you sit exactly at the sweet spot and the different distances are corrected accordingly it's still fine but a little bit more blurry.
switch DL to 0 and the sound is a really small spot, increase DL, the sound spot raises but "grows" as well.
and if you move to seat left ore right the distances don't match anymore and the whole thing gets worse.

please don't get me wrong! It's still better than without Dialog Lift!
but with a height center and splitting the dialog to two speakers instead of three and both keep the distance if you switch seats.
I noticed the same thing with my Onkyo 'screen-centered dialog'. It also matrixes the center in to the height channels. The mismatch in performance between the center and height channels blurred the phantom imaging even from the MLP let alone from the other seats that also had some height skew from the lateral asymmetry.

The frequency response of my 2-way WTW center speaker was ripply from a strong floor bounce at my prior install. It actually sounded better and measured better when it was horizontally mounted on top of the TV than when it was closer to the floor and vertically oriented/aligned with the MTM in the towers. That floor reflection completely changed my mind for me about whether to use bookshelf speakers at floor level. No.

I've got more space now so I'm using all towers on the floor. The bass woofers need to be literally on the floor in the bottom of a tower so the reflection mutually couples when listening up close with a strong floor bounce, or the voices don't sound right.

The height speakers were tucked into the corner between the front wall and ceiling. The ceiling corner also added strong reflections and colored the midrange noticeably. I'm considering mounting the ceiling speakers in the top position this time rather than the height position as I migrate to 9.2.6, primarily to avoid that tonal coloration from having them all in the corners of the ceiling where their voicing is affected by the reflections.

It was obvious that 'screen-centered dialog' was playing from three different locations. It didn't merge. The tonal coloration in those disparate locations was too skewed for it to ever sound right. It's not the speakers. It's the location.

A dedicated theater with risers and stage and high ceiling probably doesn't have as strong reflections off the more distant floor and ceiling. I wouldn't know from experience.

Probably what sounds best for a center height doing dialog lift duty to augment the center channel is when both of the speakers and their reflections create an approximately vertically centered phantom image directly in the middle of the screen from the MLP. It's not so much about the levels matching as it is that the total image -- including the floor and ceiling reflections -- needs to approximate a speaker in the middle of the screen in the phantom sense, without having too strong a coloration from the perturbation in the frequency response from those reflections. Experimentation is probably required to get it right if the screen height is a substantial portion of the room height.

Nearfield tower in a small space wasn't quite as corrupted in sound as the vertically mounted WTW with the tweeter 36" off the floor, but with all the clutter in that small space the ambiance was scattered and the imaging suffered even between towers. And despite the center speaker being overall better in frequency response than any of the towers because I focused the sub integration on it, the towers still sounded better without that strong separate floor bounce making ripples in the upper bass, obstructed woofer and all.

If the acoustics of the space aren't up to snuff, these tech tweaks like dialog lift can actually make things worse. I stopped using it because it sounded so unnatural. It did help bring out the dialog though by increasing the overall center channel level in the front sound stage, at least until I got the center frequency response somewhat tamed with absorption on the rear wall to attenuate that extremely strong nearfield reflection in a short room. Ugh, acoustics in a compromised space is a nightmare. So glad it's over.
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post #1617 of 2062 Old 09-16-2018, 09:39 AM
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Thanks, if your in ny i’d consider doing yours. Spandex may work!


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Wrong coast. Sigh.

Oh well. At least I don't have to de-ice my door locks any more.
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post #1618 of 2062 Old 09-16-2018, 10:06 AM
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For my homemade dialog lift with an active mixer, I'm using identical front L/R and front height speakers. The center has the same drivers, just an extra woofer (so all three have the same total woofer/midranges at work. Other than the jump in height and 3dB sound level increase, I can't tell any change in the sound if I mute the height speakers while playing 2 or 3 channel sound.

I did notice a difference when I used the Yamaha lift effect, but on my older model, at least, it required the use of a DSP mode to even function so that colored the output. Speaker distance settings also greatly affected how it sounded (ranging from no lift to excessive lift). The active mixer requires no modes, works in all receiver modes including stereo and is less affected by the distance setting. It also can blend seamlessly with the front height channels.

Height can be varied as well. It does not have to be 50/50, but you have to make sure the overall individual channels all have the same levels (if you decrease the height level for L/R you need to increase the lower level to match or your front channels end up too low.). Height channels should be set separately from the mixed height lift effect as they're really just sharing the same speaker.

I set dialog to be about 1\3 up the screen. Thus gives more separation from the heights than 50\50 and lets leaky upmixers like Auro and Neural X have a little breathing room (they then tend to end up at halfway up for those upmixers). The "apparent" height can vary a bit with some (usually music) sources. These often sounded higher in just stereo too. I assume it's some psycho-acoustic thing or added mixing effect causing it.

The center height can be set independent of the left/right channels if desired as well (adjust mixer input for center).

I would not use some cheap speaker for dialog height. It should have the same drivers as the mains, IMO or it might "blur" as you say.

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-21-19)
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All I'll say is that I thought it actually got clearer sounding when I added the dialog lift effect. I could actually tell when my left and right speakers were out of alignment by comparing the center + height to left/right alone + height (full phantom). When they were in exact alignment, they sounded identical with a track like Bill Withers, "Ain't No Sunshine" with his voice in the middle at the start. When they were off, the center would sound clearer than the left/right speakers. But that was also true when the center was louder. They had to be level matched exactly.
'Screen-centered dialog' in the Onkyo seems like it just mixes center into the heights rather than shifting the center image toward the heights. It actually perturbs the balance. I tried lowering the volume of the center but it just made things worse because of the frequency response perturbation in the heights that were tucked into the corner not matching the frequency response perturbation in the center that was reflecting off the floor. Instead of dialog lift I got dialog in a box.

Another factor is that the phantom imaging between typical 2-way and 3-way speakers with 2nd order inverting crossovers has a phasy sound, almost like a miswire. There are two frequency bands that end up out of phase with each other. The first band starts at the first 3-way bass-to-midrange crossover, then the 2-way crossover from bass-to-treble puts things back in phase, then the 3-way midrange-to-treble crossover puts things back out of phase again through the rest of the spectrum. It's evil to the phantom imaging.

I noticed a dramatic difference in the imaging between discrete movie mode and panoramic music mode with 2-way speakers in center/wide/height positions, and 3-way towers in the l/r positions. With panoramic blending engaged, the mismatch in the crossovers of the l/r vs. the center/wides completely messed with the phantom imaging up front and the frequency response sounded just as weird in the midrange and treble as an actual miswire would. The only part that meshed was the bass. I thought there was a problem with my speakers... oh wait, there is!

This time I'll have 3-way on the floor and 2-way on the ceiling, so I'll still have an issue with phantom imaging in the vertical dimension, but there's a strong mismatch there anyway from the acoustics alone. Maybe it won't be as noticeable that two frequency bands are out of phase. I'm not planning on using any dialog lift. It won't work well anyway with my speakers.

I never considered the effect of a mismatch in crossovers until I noticed the issue it causes. Nobody seems to mention it. I think it's crucial. Everyone who is using budget (some pro too) equipment with typical 2nd order inverting crossovers, 2-way horizontal center, and 3-way l/r towers, plus maybe 2-way bookshelf surrounds too, is subject to it, and I'm still subject to it with the smaller ceiling speakers because there's no bookshelf 3-way in this model line.

Why aren't more people mentioning it? I brought it up after the Revel Salon vs. JBL M2 shootout. Only one response acknowledging the issue. I think the Salon line might be affected too because it has several models that are all intended to be used in a surround system together. No idea about the M2 crossover phasing. It's in a DSP and not published anywhere that I know of, and there's no complement of surround models for the M2 either, so no direct comparison between the lines is even possible because they aren't even intended for the same application.

I suggested that the blind motorized speaker shootout should have included the Salon center speaker in a 2-channel mono test for channel match with differing speakers, or at least someone should have mentioned it if the crossovers are 2nd order and there's a phase mismatch between models that are typically used together in a surround system. The shootout omitted vital information by not testing or examining all the models in the line for surround phasing integration issue. I felt disappointed that the shootout didn't ask a vital question of the gear being tested. Nobody is going to mount a Revel 2 on the ceiling...

I've heard many experts claiming that humans cannot distinguish absolute phase well and that's why we accept speakers with large group delay and poor impulse response. We CAN discern phase mismatch between channels though. The best plan IMO is to ensure that either the crossovers all match, or they all use 4th order L-R crossovers to keep all the drivers wired in 0 degrees phase. Don't do '2nd order 180' if 2-way and 3-way must play nice together in your system.
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I didn't even know Onkyo offered a dialog lift option.

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-21-19)
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