Beyond 7.1.4... Multi-AVR set-up for Immersive Audio - Page 56 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1651 of 1784 Old 12-05-2018, 10:09 AM
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Hi!

This seems to be a good place to ask for some help. I have currently 9.1.2 set-up for Immersive Audio. My set-up is built around Marantz SR7010. Marantz MM7025 is powering L+R speakers.

If I want 9.1.6 system what would be my options? I was thinking another Marantz AVR for additional Atmos channels. What is the most affordable Marantz AVR model for this task? How I should connect amps and speakers?

Here is one diagram that I just found, do I need 4 AVRs to do this correctly?
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post #1652 of 1784 Old 12-05-2018, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkeli View Post
Hi!

This seems to be a good place to ask for some help. I have currently 9.1.2 set-up for Immersive Audio. My set-up is built around Marantz SR7010. Marantz MM7025 is powering L+R speakers.

If I want 9.1.6 system what would be my options? I was thinking another Marantz AVR for additional Atmos channels. What is the most affordable Marantz AVR model for this task? How I should connect amps and speakers?

Here is one diagram that I just found, do I need 4 AVRs to do this correctly?
The big obstacle is getting fully discrete 6 overheads. The cheapest AVR that can do this natively is the Denon AVR-X8500H at $4,000 msrp. If you don't want to go this route (understandable given the price!) then you have two basic options:

1. Set up 9.1.4 using two 9/11ch AVR's and then add additional units to extract the center output on each side to extend the overhead array from .4 to .6
2. Set 9.1.6 using two 9/11ch AVR's and have duplicate content shared between TM from one AVR and TF+TR from the other AVR (semi-array)

Option 1 requires additional boxes of course, whereas Option 2 requires only two AVRs.

With Option 2, you'd maintain your current 9.1.2 setup, and then use a second AVR in x.x.4 mode and have it power the TF+TR speakers. This is relatively cheap to accomplish as you can use any 9ch model, so for example a Marantz SR6010 which should be available for $500-600 or less. Any content sent to TM will be arrayed across all three speakers (TF+TM+TR), and any TF content will be array between TF+TM, and TR content will be arrayed TM+TR.

With Option 1, you could do it with the same SR6010, the difference is that you'd disconnect the .2 from your current SR7010 and instead feed the TF+TR pre-outs from the 6010 to the separate boxes which will extract a new TM signal.

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post #1653 of 1784 Old 12-05-2018, 11:18 AM
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Thank you for your helpful answer, batpig! I'm aiming for 6 fully discrete overheads. Denon AVR-X8500H is out of my price range, so this leaves me with the option 1. What are minimum requirements for additional boxes used in this case?
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post #1654 of 1784 Old 12-05-2018, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mikkeli View Post
Thank you for your helpful answer, batpig! I'm aiming for 6 fully discrete overheads. Denon AVR-X8500H is out of my price range, so this leaves me with the option 1. What are minimum requirements for additional boxes used in this case?
Then you would do it just as it's done in the diagram you posted:

- SR7010 set up for 9.1.2 with heights disconnected
- Feed Zone 2 HDMI output to SR6010
- SR6010 set up for 5.1.4 with Height 1/2 pre-outs feeding TWO separate PLII AVRs (no direct speaker wire connections)
- Feed the two (front/rear) left RCA outputs to a stereo input on one PLII AVR
- Feed the two (front/rear) right RCA outputs to a stereo input on the other PLII AVR
- Each PLII AVR will output three speakers FL + C + FR (which corresponds to to TF+TM+TR) with C extracted from the stereo input using PLII (use Movie mode for more discrete center extraction, Music mode if you want it to be more arrayed and then use the "Center Width" control to determine how discrete the TM is)

I'm unaware if there is a different/better solution (e.g. a small matrix box like MiniDSP?) that's been discovered more recently other than using PLII AVRs.

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post #1655 of 1784 Old 12-05-2018, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Then you would do it just as it's done in the diagram you posted:

- SR7010 set up for 9.1.2 with heights disconnected
- Feed Zone 2 HDMI output to SR6010
- SR6010 set up for 5.1.4 with Height 1/2 pre-outs feeding TWO separate PLII AVRs (no direct speaker wire connections)
- Feed the two (front/rear) left RCA outputs to a stereo input on one PLII AVR
- Feed the two (front/rear) right RCA outputs to a stereo input on the other PLII AVR
- Each PLII AVR will output three speakers FL + C + FR (which corresponds to to TF+TM+TR) with C extracted from the stereo input using PLII (use Movie mode for more discrete center extraction, Music mode if you want it to be more arrayed and then use the "Center Width" control to determine how discrete the TM is)

I'm unaware if there is a different/better solution (e.g. a small matrix box like MiniDSP?) that's been discovered more recently other than using PLII AVRs.
Thanks again! It's time to find some additional AVRs for this "little" project. I have to keep looking for smaller PLII solutions, my AV stand is quite full already

I found detailed instructions by Mashie Saldana, so I'm happy for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
This is how the 9.1.6 setup will be done:



To make the above work there are a few things to configure.

Speaker setup

SR7010
  • Use amp assign and speaker setup to configure 9.1.2 where the heigh speakers will use the pre-outs.
  • Set the height speaker to the Top Middle position.
  • Set the crossover for the heigh speakers to the same as the SR6010.

SR6010
  • Use amp assign and speaker setup to configure 5.1.4 where either of the heights will use pre-outs.
  • Set the height speakers to Top Front and Top Rear.

Sources

  • SR7010 configure the sources as per normal and disable all that aren't used: HDMI1 Nvidia Shield and HDMI2 BD/UHD player. Set all sources to enable the +12V trigger.
  • SR6010 configure only one source, HDMI1 and disable all other sources. Set this source to enable the +12V trigger.

Zone 2 mirroring on SR7010

By default Zone 2 on the SR7010 will have a life of it's own and not tracking what the Main Zone is set to. To fix this we need to use the Marantz App.
  • Connect to the device
  • Click on Main Zone at the top.
  • On the Zone Select scren click on "View Zone 2"
  • In the drop down list for the various sources click the one that simply is named "SOURCE".
  • Exit out and you won't have to touch this ever again unless you fiddle with Zone 2 on the remote.

System Calibration

First is to configure the PLII AVR's:
  • Connect the speakers to each PLII AVR, connect L to TF speaker, C to TM speaker and R to TR speaker.
  • Set the surround mode to ProLogic II Movie.
  • Measure the distance from MLP to all three height speakers.
  • Set the distance to C to 0.
  • Set the distance to L to L minus C.
  • Set the distance to R to R minus C.
  • Connect both L and R in on the PLII AVR to height 1 on the SR6010 using Y-splitters.
  • Play a test tone on the SR6010 and measure the output using a SPL meter in MLP. Adjust the both AVR volumes until 80dB is seen on the SPL meter.
  • Remove the Y splitter.
  • Connect only L to height 1. Play the test tone again, adjust the L speaker level on the PLII AVR unlit the SPL meter is showing 80dB.
  • Connect only R to height 1. Play the test tone again, adjust the L speaker level on the PLII AVR unlit the SPL meter is showing 80dB.
  • Repeat the steps above with the second PLII AVR.

The speaker settings for the PLII AVR's are done.

Next is to configure the SR7010:
  • Connect the 9 base layer speakers and subwoofer to the SR7010.
  • Use the Y-splitters and connect both the PLII AVRs to the height 1 outputs. This should make it a basic 9.1.2 with TM speakers.
  • Run a few test tones and adjust the main volume on the PLII AVRs until they are similar to the rest of the speakers.
  • Run Audyssey calibration on the SR7010. Write down the speaker levels, distances and crossover frequencies detected for the TM, L/C/R and Surround speakers.
  • Connect the SR6010 to the SR7010 using HDMI.
  • Move the R speaker to the SR6010 and connect the PLII AVRs to height 1 and height 2 without Y splitters.
  • Set all the speaker settings on the SR6010 as per the notes from the SR7010.
  • Connect a PC running REW to the SR7010. Now we are going to measure any latency difference between the two units so we will compare L and R impulses using C as reference following this guide.
  • With the timing difference known between the two SR's we can adjust the delays accordingly on the SR6010.
  • Last step is to use the 9.1.6 test tones from the Dolby website and once again use a SPL meter in MLP to confirm all levels are the same, if not trim the speaker levels as required.

With everything configured connect the +12v trigger inputs on PLII AVR's to the SR's and set them to auto.

Single Remote (This is best to do as the very last step after all the speaker calibration has been completed.)

In addition to the settings above, to make source select and volumes fully synchronized we need to have a single IR receiver accept commands from the remote. To do this we need to connect Control Out from the SR7010 to Control In on the SR6010 and disable the IR receiver on the SR6010:

With the unit in standby, on the front panel press and hold M-DAX and DIMMER while clicking Power On.
Use TUNER PRESET CH + or TUNER PRESET CH - to select “RC LOCK On".
Press STATUS to enter the setting.

To undo this just repeat but select "RC LOCK Off".
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post #1656 of 1784 Old 12-05-2018, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkeli View Post
Thanks again! It's time to find some additional AVRs for this "little" project. I have to keep looking for smaller PLII solutions, my AV stand is quite full already

I found detailed instructions by Mashie Saldana, so I'm happy for now.
FWIW, I'm in the same boat. No room for additional AVRs...I've been following this thread hoping for a simpler solution to add the 6 overhead channels. If you are patient, then the market will probably help us. An x.x.6 AVR is $4K now. However, it seems like the next "evolution" of Atmos. I'm hoping that 2019-2020 brings more cost effective options...
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post #1657 of 1784 Old 12-08-2018, 04:09 PM
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I've got another pair of PSB T45 speakers on the way to finally replace my front left and front right mains, which I then plan to move back between the side surround and rear surround speakers ("rear wides" as it were for lack of a better term).

It seems I will have to use an active mixer (matrixed) output like I did with front wides as I see no way to do a Pro Logic extraction without needing either multiple full AVRs or another 7.1 receiver for amplification for each set in order to play the side/rear channels with the in-phase material removed (as I do for Top Middle, sending all six speakers to their own amplifiers). I simply don't have the room for that many amplifiers (i.e. I'd want front wides extracted too). This will bring me to 11.1.6 (7.1.4 + full extracted top middle + matrixed front wides + matrixed rear wides + dialog lift). The matrixed front wides actually work pretty well in a narrow room so I'm hoping rear wides will make the back room imaging a bit tighter for all rows than without (basically I'll have an extra set of B15 speakers and stands so why not?) I'll probably look at possibly adding a second sub for the back half the room to get more even coverage after that (11.2.6).

I've got two more chairs (rocker/recliners this time) being delivered in a couple of days (to replace the outgoing couch). This will give me 5 permanent seats (two suede manual rocker recliners and three powered leather recliners (with "lift" mode, which can get you out of your seat or just raise you up to see above the guy in front of you). I've got one extra cushioned chair (from a dining set I got on closeout when a furniture place was closing) that I can add to the front or back of the room to seat 6. I can probably fit one more of those narrower "lift" chairs in the front if I want (could then seat 7 with extra chair in back).

I'll need to look at drapery for the front half of the room (tame reflections a bit and more importantly darken the "white" walls without having to paint them).



Meanwhile, I went back through some older pages to look for something and I ran into a couple of things I thought I'd ask a few questions about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
You're right, that doesn't make sense.

In a regular setup with just one A/V receiver, the parameters you set will not interfere with ProLogic II decoding. What we're talking about specifically is using the pre-outs from one AVR to feed the PLII decoder in a second AVR (or two). In that case, the input signal that the second AVR receives must be identical in all respects in order for PLII decoding to work. Otherwise, if there's any difference between the right input channel and the left input channel, the second AVR will interpret a mono signal as stereo and will not properly collapse it to the center. You can change the distance/crossover/trim parameters in the second AVR as much as you need.
I was always under the impression that Pro Logic primarily used the phase information between channels to extract a center. I assume the levels might be used to "steer" it even tighter (less channel bleed) for mono information, but does PLII really cease to work if the levels are off? I'm pretty sure my original Pro Logic decoders (Onkyo ES-Pro 600) used for Top Middle aren't getting identical levels between front/rear heights as I have them adjusted for even levels in the room and the front height has further manipulation for dialog height, etc. using a mixer before the final amp. The helicopter test sounds pretty good and the 9.1.6 Atmos test tones work fine for top middle. I might try playing with it a bit more. Perhaps it might become even smoother or something (it always seems like the helicopter spends a little bit more time at the middle point than in-between, but I assumed that was due to not being able to set a delay for the channels or even perhaps the steering logic being a little too aggressive (pulling faster towards center) as it's not adjustable for width as PLII is. I've never noticed the effect not being perfectly smooth with pans anywhere else but that demo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Let me put it this way: with just heights, the chopper goes in a wide, big, circle at some height around you.
With just tops, it goes in a much narrower circle almost on top of you. But with both AVR's on, it has a perfect big circle clearly from above you. So kind of the best from two worlds.
Does the helicopter actually move in a "circle" around you? It moves in a square when I only have 7.1.4 setup (which I can still do thanks to the monoprice switchbox I use for Auro-3D, which can also be used to move to 7.1.4 for only the front half of the room). Basically, it flies around the perimeter (front height left to rear height left to rear height right to front height right to front height left). It does not move "inward" at any point in-between to create a circular pattern, but traces straight lines from speaker to speaker. With 7.1.6 (full length of 24' long room), it traces a rectangle instead as the room is 2x as long as it is wide). It does not fly in "circles" at all. We are talking about the Dolby Atmos helicopter demo, correct?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

That was an excellent write up and jives with my own experience with Atmos-EX 7.1.6 sound. Critical listening to some Dolby demo disk reveals some limitations of this arrangement. You can improve from there though. But still, demos like the helicopter a really rough. Sounds bad. The 747 I thought sounds better when processing with MUSIC mode, oddly enough. Including some others. I highly recommend you test with MUSIC mode if you find MOVIE mode doesn't sound well enough.

Actual movie watching OTOH sounds really good with a great sense of front, back and direct overhead imaging.
I'm curious what you meant by it sounding "really rough" ? Was the movement not smooth or did it bleed locations or blur or what, exactly? As I mention above, I get a slightly longer amount of time where the helicopter is at the middle location (as if it were slowing down a bit there before moving on). I did not get this "slow down" when I used only four overheads (FH+RH). It kept a constant pace. That was with the same exact speakers and locations except for not using the rear heights (i.e. middle height became rear height).

Click THEATER (Updated: Apr-09-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 5-13-19)
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post #1658 of 1784 Old 12-08-2018, 11:26 PM
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^^ Yeah, i guess you could say it’s a square

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post #1659 of 1784 Old 12-09-2018, 06:08 AM
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I tried tweaking the levels so the 7012 output identical levels (used mixer/2nd AVR trims to get actual output in room even). No noticeable difference with the helicopter demo. What did matter was the precise level of the top middle speakers. They seem to have a bit more bass than FH/RH for some reason. I switched to A-weighted measurements and readjusted. The bass seemed to throw the average off with C-weighted despite being set to small. I don't know if I'd call it perfect, but it's pretty smooth now.

The real trick is getting matrixed front wides at the right level since the phantom mix can move the apparent position of the mains a couple of feet outward. This would normally not be very noticeable but the few movies with panned dialog drift towards the edges.I reduced the front mix a bit, leaving more side content. That seemed to do the trick (easy to compare by muting the wides). I was trying out the Atmos version of Gravity. It's not real panned dialog. It snaps over in the scene where Clooney is about to head to the ISS (right where he says they were going to get hit either way). He's still almost in the center of the screen when it snaps over. Why the mixing guy didn't just pan over as he moved is beyond me. It then does a nice pan around the middle of the room (impressive since 5.1 upgraded to 7.1 has to pan around the back of the room). I'm sure it matched a little better with ceiling speakers in line with the screen instead of just to the right of them (lots of dialog in height channels here), but after that dialog snap, I wouldn't trust absolute positioning. Toy Story 2 has full panned dialog and it lines up perfectly. It is not Atmos, though so the heights aren't a real issue there (although Neural X does use them).

@Nalleh - It does sound like it rounds a bit in the corners, but it's hard to tell near the center. And my side heights should round it a bit more since they're not a straight line from the heights.

Click THEATER (Updated: Apr-09-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 5-13-19)
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post #1660 of 1784 Old 12-10-2018, 10:56 AM
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My new rocking recliner chairs arrived. I have a cushioned dining type chair in the very back now (moved power chair forward). I wasn't sure a power chair would fit on the left side of the room near the doorway. I think it will work so I'll probably order one more to put in the back where the one used to be. That will seat 6 permanently and the extra dining type (easily moved) chair can go in front of the drape/sliding door in the back if I need to seat 7. The real question is how well the dialog can be heard with the new center rocker there blocking the center speaker. Since I have dialog lift, the upper height speakers have a clear show of the entire room. The left/right speakers have a direct line of site too. The power chair has adjustable feet. I'll try moving it higher as a default. That plus its lift feature should clear it (also depends on how tall you are).

The new left/right tower speakers (T45 that match current center) should arrive tomorrow or Wednesday. They also sit 2 inches taller. I can then decide if I want to move the L/R bookshelf ones between rows 2/3 for "rear wides". It should work. I just need another mixer and a 2-channel amp to do a matrixed set there, which should make for cleaner panning transitions and more even sound.
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Click THEATER (Updated: Apr-09-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 5-13-19)
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post #1661 of 1784 Old 12-10-2018, 11:09 AM
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Hello fellow audio-video maniacs

I would like to ask for advice because im a noob in this and ive searched through whole internet but cant find verified informations if my setup will work

My new receiver on the way is :

Onkyo RZ730 9.2 channel AVR with possibility to expand to 11 channels via pre-out
ww.nl.onkyo.com/en/products/tx-rz730-149155.html

Old receiver
Okyo 993 with 7.1 THX speakers
ww.eu.onkyo.com/en/products/ht-s9700thx-120121.html

As i dont have any power amplifier as manual suggests (to expand 5.1.4 to 7.1.4) can I use old AVR as a power amplifier ? will it work ?

How should the setup look like ? which audio mode on old avr , what volume


Any help will be much apreciated
Thank you
Vlad
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post #1662 of 1784 Old 12-10-2018, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir Bartalos View Post
Hello fellow audio-video maniacs

I would like to ask for advice because im a noob in this and ive searched through whole internet but cant find verified informations if my setup will work

My new receiver on the way is :

Onkyo RZ730 9.2 channel AVR with possibility to expand to 11 channels via pre-out
ww.nl.onkyo.com/en/products/tx-rz730-149155.html

Old receiver
Okyo 993 with 7.1 THX speakers
ww.eu.onkyo.com/en/products/ht-s9700thx-120121.html

As i dont have any power amplifier as manual suggests (to expand 5.1.4 to 7.1.4) can I use old AVR as a power amplifier ? will it work ?

How should the setup look like ? which audio mode on old avr , what volume


Any help will be much apreciated
Thank you
Vlad
I use 7CH input mode, but I'm powering 6-channels with my 2nd receiver. For just two channels, you can even use a set of stereo inputs. Set the 2nd AVR to 0dB. Use the primary to control the levels.

Click THEATER (Updated: Apr-09-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 5-13-19)
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post #1663 of 1784 Old 12-10-2018, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I use 7CH input mode, but I'm powering 6-channels with my 2nd receiver. For just two channels, you can even use a set of stereo inputs. Set the 2nd AVR to 0dB. Use the primary to control the levels.
thank you for reply

STEREO INPUTS ? which are those please. can you check the back side of my old receiver please ?
I cant post link unfortunatelly

and 0 volume means reference level or minimum ?
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post #1664 of 1784 Old 12-10-2018, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkeli View Post
I found detailed instructions by Mashie Saldana, so I'm happy for now.
I'm glad it was of use. I have tweaked my setup a little by using a Logitech Harmony Elite to control it all. Makes it easier to turn Zone 2 on/off. The only other difference from that diagram is that both Atmos AVRs have to connect to the display for HDCP2.2 to play ball and the control link between them are no longer needed, nor is the disabling of the IR input on unit two.

This setup has been going strong for nearly two years now. One major benefit compared to a true 9.1.6 processor is that I got sound in the top middle even when Disney decide to only use the 4 standard top positions.

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post #1665 of 1784 Old 12-10-2018, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir Bartalos View Post
STEREO INPUTS ? which are those please. can you check the back side of my old receiver please ?
I cant post link unfortunatelly
I found a photo of the 997. I don't see a 993 offhand. Any RCA input save phono (BD/DVD, Cbl/Sat, Game, Strm Box, CD, etc.). If you're only going to use it for two channel amplification (those extra 2 channels), any of these will do. Run the receiver in stereo mode. The 997 doesn't appear to have 7ch input so it may be the only channels you can use anyway.

Quote:
and 0 volume means reference level or minimum ?
Reference (unity gain). You just want it to pass through the signal without turning it down or amplifying it. You will control the volume from the primary receiver's pre-amp (volume levels). You shouldn't need to do anything more than power on the 2nd receiver once you're set up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
One major benefit compared to a true 9.1.6 processor is that I got sound in the top middle even when Disney decide to only use the 4 standard top positions.
I heard that.

It even works for Auro-3D (set rear heights instead of side heights and extract signal between front and rear heights). Mirror side heights to rear if desired (switchbox). I can run srround height, rear height or both at the same time or extract top middle for Auro-3D. It just changes the placements a bit and makes rows 2 and 3 have sounds behind them (they all sound OK from the MLP). It simulates a nice VOG for Auro-3D as well (directly overhead the ceiling in line with the side heights) and locks it there for multiple rows.

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post #1666 of 1784 Old 12-10-2018, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
I'm glad it was of use. I have tweaked my setup a little by using a Logitech Harmony Elite to control it all. Makes it easier to turn Zone 2 on/off. The only other difference from that diagram is that both Atmos AVRs have to connect to the display for HDCP2.2 to play ball and the control link between them are no longer needed, nor is the disabling of the IR input on unit two.
I seem to remember your avr’s had only one remote ID? You control both with the same codes, just with disabled inputs ec. ?

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post #1667 of 1784 Old 12-10-2018, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
I seem to remember your avr’s had only one remote ID? You control both with the same codes, just with disabled inputs ec. ?
I simply send the same commands to both as they are on IDs that can't be tweaked. On the heights AVR I only have one enabled input so it can't change regardless what I send to the main AVR. Works great. The only time anything goes out of sync is if I do a massive change in volume, then I will have to tweak one of them manually by turning the knob.
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There's no way I can fit the left "rear wide" speaker (at least using PSB B15s) with the new chairs and space left (chair would either rock into it or it would stick out too much with limited aisle way now. I just wanted a little matrixed panning fill there.

Does anyone know of a particularly narrow and/or flat speaker that I could fit on the wall or against it that doesn't sound like crap? It doesn't need too much bandwidth as it's matrixed between existing speakers, but it needs to have somewhat flat response in its range or it might stick out like a sore thumb. Otherwise, I'm just going to have to stick with 9.x.6. I can easily fit another subwoofer or two and the side by the fireplace could handle a nice speaker equidistant, but not the left side of the room there.

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post #1669 of 1784 Old 12-11-2018, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
I'm glad it was of use. I have tweaked my setup a little by using a Logitech Harmony Elite to control it all. Makes it easier to turn Zone 2 on/off. The only other difference from that diagram is that both Atmos AVRs have to connect to the display for HDCP2.2 to play ball and the control link between them are no longer needed, nor is the disabling of the IR input on unit two.

This setup has been going strong for nearly two years now. One major benefit compared to a true 9.1.6 processor is that I got sound in the top middle even when Disney decide to only use the 4 standard top positions.
In what situations you have to turn Zone 2 on/off? Something to do with differences between Auro 3D / Atmos / DTS:X? What is your current speaker setup, 9.1.6 or something else?
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post #1670 of 1784 Old 12-11-2018, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by mikkeli View Post
In what situations you have to turn Zone 2 on/off? Something to do with differences between Auro 3D / Atmos / DTS:X? What is your current speaker setup, 9.1.6 or something else?
It was my thread/instructions/diagram you were referring to further up for the 4x AVR setup.

I'm using 9.1.6 and by default Zone 2 isn't powered off when you power off the AVR itself. Hence it is a good idea to get a programmable remote to do that or you will have the AVRs permanently on.

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post #1671 of 1784 Old 12-11-2018, 06:56 AM
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Hi,

I am trying to get rid of the hissing sound out of the speakers height channels when I try to install a .6 installation. When I use it with .4 there is no hissing sound. This is when I use a pioneer lx76 for the pro Logic decoding to create .6 system. Thanks in advance
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post #1672 of 1784 Old 12-11-2018, 07:00 AM
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Hi,

I am trying to get rid of the hissing sound out of the speakers height channels when I try to install a .6 installation. When I use it with .4 there is no hissing sound. This is when I use a pioneer lx76 for the pro Logic decoding to create .6 system. Thanks in advance
Try raising the volume on the .4 channels and reduce the volume accordingly on the lx76 (I assume you use two of them).

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post #1673 of 1784 Old 12-14-2018, 01:50 PM
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I replaced the PSB B15s with PSB T45s for the Left/Right Mains so L/C/R are all the same speaker model (sadly the speaker grill cloths are grey; I'm thinking of painting them with vinyl paint. I moved the PSB B15s to the side surround position (aimed sideways) instead of the Def Tech BP2s. All speakers except the subwoofer are now PSB with the same or similar drivers (T45, B15, S50 have same woofer/tweeters and X1T and CS500 have the same woofer/tweeters and they sound very similar tonally to the other three to the point where I can't tell the difference offhand). Sound moves around the room almost holographically now.

I would like to put in rear "wides" (2nd side surround between 2nd and 3rd row between normal side surround and rear speakers), but the new recliner makes this difficult as it would tend to bump into most speakers placed in that vicinity and the aisle isn't wide enough to one outside the recliner area. I have seen some "thin" speakers that can be hung on the wall (1.4 inches thick or so), but I have no idea how the sound would match up tonally

The other issue I've noticed with doing a 24' long room with 3 rows is that the front channels fall off in volume the further back into the room you go to the point where the center channel dialog is probably 2dB less at the 2nd row and 4dB less in the 3rd row. This makes dialog and front effects less clear, especially when the system is balanced for the front row (meaning rear surrounds and heights are louder in the back on top of the front being less loud (sides are more even being in the middle, although a little bit louder for seats near the sides. The second row still sounds pretty good as-is and boosting the "dialog" (center) 1.5dB then sounds very good for the middle and tolerable for the front (2nd row center sounds the best for surround effects for that matter, IMO). The 3rd row could stand a couple of more dB boost to be optimal, but that would definitely make the front louder than perhaps desired. I do remember sitting the front row at packed theaters a few time and thinking it was a heck of a lot louder up front, but I didn't think a mere three rows at home would be an issue. I haven't tried Audyssey correction yet to see if it can do anything and I'm hesitant to use it given the matrixed front wides and Pro Logic extracted top middles can't be corrected individually. I don't know that would affect volume drop-off towards the rear of the room anyway. Obviously, in real theaters seats are further away from the surround and ceiling speakers than at home (louder rears are less of an issue). I haven't sat in a front row seat in a LONG time so I don't know how much louder they are than halfway or 2/3 back. I don't expect the one seat in the rear to get a ton of use so it may not matter much.
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post #1674 of 1784 Old 12-17-2018, 11:40 PM
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I've just heard the best Atmos track yet in 9.1.6 tonight... the original Jumanji if you can believe it! Crazy perfect use of surrounds and heights. I just watched the first Harry Potter before that in DTS:X and thought that sounded great, but Jumanji was nuts.
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post #1675 of 1784 Old 12-23-2018, 12:31 PM
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I added a new wedge table to the front row (place for remote, drinks and has a charging stand and outlets on the back). I've added new photos to my "THEATER" page in my signature. Still waiting on the last chair (to go 2nd row center). Planning on ordering speakers for "rear wides" next (to go between 2nd and 3rd row on sides to complete the "circle"). That should bring me to 11.1.6. I'm still debating on whether to go steered center or matrixed (both have an advantage/disadvantage for that row, I think).
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post #1676 of 1784 Old 12-28-2018, 12:38 PM
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I just got another pair of PSB B15s (ash black) in today from eBay. This makes 4 pair now (used for Front Wide, Front Height, Side Surround previously). This pair will be used for "rear wide" (2nd row of side surrounds placed inward a bit between the side surrounds and PSB X1T rear surround towers. This should make the imaging transitions around the room about as smooth as I can get it with the layout I have. This brings it up to 11.1.6 once installed.

I have three PSB T45 speakers for the front L/C/R speakers (same drivers as the B15 but with an extra woofer and larger cabinet; these play to 35Hz flat and cross -3dB at 30Hz. The X1Ts in the rear are two generation newer versions of the same basic speaker; they still sound largely the same to my ears with very similar drivers. But they are slightly less wide so that makes them perfect for the left rear surround that otherwise wouldn't fit next to the sliding glass door in the back). PSB S50 bipolars (same drivers as B15/T45) are used as side heights (top middle extraction) and PSB CS500 'outdoor' speakers are mounted on the ceiling above the X1Ts in the back (same drivers as X1T more or less). I'm using matrixed decoding to extract the front and rear wides (top middle is done with Onkyo Pro Logic processors and provides 'near discrete-like' output for the ceiling). The matrix decoder will allow some side surround information in the rear wides bringing some of the side surround information further back for the 2nd/3rd row with on-axis distribution for those seats and combined with the front wides will even out the overall phantom image so it's still at the side location overall. As you can see in the diagram, it's not a perfect "even" set of angles, but other than the rear mains (which due to the room and aligning with the mains are 10 degrees below their recommendation), all are in the Dolby bed circle. Rear heights are lower than recommended, but the room is 24' long so it can't be helped. The "top middle" side heights fill the gap so every angle between elevation speakers is 70 degrees or less (which is still a smaller angle between speakers than the Dolby 45/135 standard for 7.1.4 so it should pan smoother than a standard 7.1.4 configuration both above and below and is also fully compatible with Auro-3D 9.1 (11.1 phantomed) and DTS works fully in 11.1.6 due to extraction/matrixed channel creation instead of discrete. The room seats 6 full time with an optional 7th extra chair I can bring in.

EDIT: 11.1.6 install completed and calibrated (holographic-like sound from all seating locations). Pictures to come....
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post #1677 of 1784 Old 12-29-2018, 08:08 AM
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New Rear Wide Photos:

(additional pictures added to my "THEATER" page (new rack photos and front/rear views)
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post #1678 of 1784 Old 12-30-2018, 12:52 PM
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Hi,i am going to stick with 9.2.4 but i am going to add another receiver. Should i buy a sr 6011-6012 or 6013 for the height channels.The price difference is minimal but I would buy the 6013 but I am afraid for a firmware update that doesn't allow cross upmixing anymore. Or is this update never going to happen?

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post #1679 of 1784 Old 01-02-2019, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post
Theory... Idea... any thoughts?


2 of these PLII decoders to add TM using Scott's dual PLII AVR 7.1.6 method (providing one has external amplification)....


or would a device like this simply not encode 2 channel to PL?
* It states that the 2 channel is converted to 5.1... so the plot thickens.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-5-1-Cha...3D281532563178


I figure using the 2 channel AUX (blue) input and then output to external amp via the FL, FR, CEN





- Jason


Regarding using the aux input from the pre outs of the amp. Need some tech advice, Pre out connections being a 1v out typically, will that have too much gain for an aux input thus creating distortion and noise?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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post #1680 of 1784 Old 01-02-2019, 08:41 AM
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Don't use those ones posted in the pictures above. They do not work properly for analog inputs. I tried them.

Click THEATER (Updated: Apr-09-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 5-13-19)
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