Beyond 7.1.4... Multi-AVR set-up for Immersive Audio - Page 58 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1711 of 1845 Old 01-22-2019, 09:30 AM
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You don't need any AVR to add matrixed wides, just an active mixer and have an extra set of amplifier channels (e.g. I added rear wides with a 50Wx2 amp and an active mixer; they may not be discrete, but they work with everything and definitely smooth imaging between rows (like an array at close range and a smoothing imaging effect further away). Front wides can widen the soundstage and/or bring the "phantom" sides forward or just smooth things out (depending on how much front and side is mixed together). Something like the Onkyo ES-600 Pro (pro logic processor, although you need one for each channel) then removes the front/side from those speakers as it pans across and sends it to the wide speakers instead (like a center channel in a pro logic setup). That produces discrete-like results and still works with everything. The only down side with front wides that way is that Atmos has this "snap to" function that sends the information back to the fronts instead if it's used. That ruins the effect. They should just let it pan like everything else if not present, IMO. Halfway in-between beats having the sounds in the front even with just a phantom image....

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post #1712 of 1845 Old 01-22-2019, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
No, you need the Denon X6200W for this as it can be set to 9.1.2 while your current MRX will be left to process the 4 heights.
Seems like it would be a monumental waste to spend on an Anthem and then only use it for the 4 height speakers.

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post #1713 of 1845 Old 01-22-2019, 11:33 AM
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Seems like it would be a monumental waste to spend on an Anthem and then only use it for the 4 height speakers.
Not disagreeing, but it is the way to get discreet wides in that setup.

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post #1714 of 1845 Old 01-23-2019, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by blastermaster View Post
MagnumX led me to this thread as I'm wanting to install front wides into my current HT configuration of 7.1.4. I'm currently using an Anthem MRX 720 with some external amplification as well (Outlaw 7700). I'm reading through the this thread, but it is going to take some time (not sure if I should work backwards or forwards haha). At any rate, I noticed that I can get a good deal on a used Denon X4100W. Would that AVR, in conjunction with my current one, allow for me to have discrete front wides working for all my Blu Ray and 4K content? Would I need anything else apart from some cables? Cheers.
DISCRETE Wides for 9.1.4 can be expensive. MATRIXED or CENTER EXTRACTED is more economical. Bolded are good terms to search this thread.

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post #1715 of 1845 Old 01-27-2019, 12:34 AM
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Hi I am implementing pro logic 11 for top middle for atmos, does anyone have any results in using that method for dtsX and auro3d content?


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post #1716 of 1845 Old 01-27-2019, 07:08 AM
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^^^ It's like I've never posted here at all....

We really need a FAQ page....

Yes, I've got exactly that and it works GREAT for both DTS:X and Auro-3D (latter was a bit more surprising as it brings Auro 10.1 much closer to Atmos results in a longer room whereas regular Auro 10.1 is more like 5.1.4 (although duplicating sides as rears does help with more rows so they all sound similar whereas creating a top middle with rear height is essentially like 5.1.6. I matrix a second rear side as well so the first two rows sound very close to 7.1.6 (well really 9.1.6 since I matrix front wides as well).

DTS:X sounds exactly like 11.1.6 Atmos here as there is no difference in how they are created (matrixed front and rear wides and extracted top middle from a 7.1.4 base).

Matrixed rear wides are awesome for three rows and ALL content (mimics cinema arrays for older content providing a pretty even surround experience for all rows and gives smoother transitions for Atmos/X content, although there is a phantom array effect there as well as hard sounds come from places between the speakers instead if right at them with matrixed. Matrixed is definitely better for older content, IMO than extracted, but extracted is probably best for top middle as it's all newer (either immersive or upmixed).

Matrixed front wides seem less useful to me (the dialog lift effect I do with a mixer and front heights us far more impressive, IMO). I tried discrete front wides with my 7010 before it broke and at least with the demos and material I tried I still couldn't hear a big difference, but then my room is longer than wide (12x24 feet) so it already imaged well outside the speakers without the wides. Wider rooms might get more benefit. They DO help with the seats near the walls, though as they improve the side surround imaging not jump but go around from those seats as the mains are in front of them but the wides outside them. The MLP gets a small improvement by comparison.
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post #1717 of 1845 Old 02-28-2019, 08:59 PM
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Ok, after much reading, I think I've got this figured out, but I'd like to run it past the mad scientists here...

I've currently got the Denon 4300 (7.2.4 mode using Front Heights and Top Middles) with my old Denon 1200 (5.2.2) powering the Top Middles.

From what I can gather, I should ditch the 1200 and get something like an Onkyo TX-RZ630 (9.2). I keep the 4300 in its current 7.2.4 mode, run an HDMI from Zone 2 Out to the Onkyo, which I set up for 5.2.4 (Top Front and Top Rear).

So that will give me the 7 base channels plus Front Heights and 6 Top channels...correct??

Is there perhaps another possible setup where I keep the 1200 along with the 4300 and Onkyo for even more Atmos fun?

Thanks in advance.

Edit: I just realized I'll still need the 1200 or something to power the Top Middles from the 4300, right?

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post #1718 of 1845 Old 02-28-2019, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by JRobinson84 View Post
Ok, after much reading, I think I've got this figured out, but I'd like to run it past the mad scientists here...

I've currently got the Denon 4300 (7.2.4 mode using Front Heights and Top Middles) with my old Denon 1200 (5.2.2) powering the Top Middles.

From what I can gather, I should ditch the 1200 and get something like an Onkyo TX-RZ630 (9.2). I keep the 4300 in its current 7.2.4 mode, run an HDMI from Zone 2 Out to the Onkyo, which I set up for 5.2.4 (Top Front and Top Rear).

So that will give me the 7 base channels plus Front Heights and 6 Top channels...correct??

Is there perhaps another possible setup where I keep the 1200 along with the 4300 and Onkyo for even more Atmos fun?

Thanks in advance.

Edit: I just realized I'll still need the 1200 or something to power the Top Middles from the 4300, right?
What is your target speaker setup? 7.1.6, 9.1.4 or 9.1.6?

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post #1719 of 1845 Old 03-01-2019, 06:48 AM
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I've got a little 50W/ch stereo amp for my surround#2 speakers (aka rear wides) that is Class D and works well and takes up almost no space compared to an AVR or conventional old school amp. If rack space is an issue, you could go with something like that for your top middles. I think it was like $80 (name is in my signature build page, forget offhand. I got it from Amazon.

Keep in mind two AVRs will only get you so much discrete-wise basically two extra channels to do 9.1.4 instead of 7.1.4, but if you don't mind some array-like bleedover you can pretty much go to town.

I just fixed my Marantz SR7010 (should have tried sooner; I could have saved myself $1200 on that 7012 as I just ended up using the automatic Audyssey curve anyway). Now the question is what to do with it.

I can go to discrete rendered wides (adds no channels here) and a PITA since the 7010 would have to do the front mains and side surrounds (and at least temporarily connect rears and center and front heights to get Audyssey to work) to keep wides content out of those speakers (have to run Audyssey on auto on the 7010 and hope for the best).

Or I could render four 'tops' channels and add more speakers (and get Atmos rendered wides with some bleed to sides on non-snap material).

Or I can use it upstairs, keep it as a backup or sell it (It has the Auro-3D upgrade).
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post #1720 of 1845 Old 03-01-2019, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
What is your target speaker setup? 7.1.6, 9.1.4 or 9.1.6?
I'd like to keep the setup I have now with the Front Heights plus the 6 overheads, so does that count as a 9.1.6? I don't really have much space for Front Wides.

Or would I be better off ditching the Front Heights and doing TF, TM, TR?

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post #1721 of 1845 Old 03-02-2019, 10:12 AM
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Re going the discreet route, I have an opportunity to get my hands on two denon avrs locally for cheap but they’re different models with slightly different power outputs. Do they absolutely have to be the same?


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post #1722 of 1845 Old 03-02-2019, 01:18 PM
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Re going the discreet route, I have an opportunity to get my hands on two denon avrs locally for cheap but they’re different models with slightly different power outputs. Do they absolutely have to be the same?


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Not needed at all. Just try to get them from the same generation to make it easier with the remotes.

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post #1723 of 1845 Old 03-04-2019, 10:35 AM
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I'd like to keep the setup I have now with the Front Heights plus the 6 overheads, so does that count as a 9.1.6? I don't really have much space for Front Wides.

Or would I be better off ditching the Front Heights and doing TF, TM, TR?
That would be a 7.1.8 setup, not 9.1.6. The Front Heights (and Rear Heights) are part of the overhead layer.

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post #1724 of 1845 Old 03-07-2019, 05:30 AM
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Wow.

Umm...

You should really just get a Trinnov Altitude.
The 32 channel one.
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post #1725 of 1845 Old 03-08-2019, 06:02 AM
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Why didn't Dolby or DTS include floor level speaker options for things underneath the screen/audience? Imagine the river underneath in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. They could easily put a midrange woofer and tweeter at the bottom of towers just for this (at home; in a theater speakers along the aisle under the side surrounds would work fine) and unlike bouncy speakers, it would be pretty effective, IMO. Dolby Atmos Plus.....

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post #1726 of 1845 Old 03-08-2019, 09:06 AM
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Why didn't Dolby or DTS include floor level speaker options for things underneath the screen/audience? Imagine the river underneath in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. They could easily put a midrange woofer and tweeter at the bottom of towers just for this (at home; in a theater speakers along the aisle under the side surrounds would work fine) and unlike bouncy speakers, it would be pretty effective, IMO. Dolby Atmos Plus.....
When I visited Dolby a few years ago, I got to poke my head into the "Sandbox" lab where they test various speaker configurations. IIRC, we discussed the possibility of "puddle splash" channels, but Dolby dismissed it as too impractical in a home theater for too little benefit.

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post #1727 of 1845 Old 03-08-2019, 09:30 AM
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Impractical? More so than bouncy speakers? I think two on the side would have been sufficient for one row of seating as I wouldn't anticipate much front to back panning for puddles, rivers or explosions. Build an extra tweeter and midrange into the bottom of a tower and you're done. I'd hardly call that impractical. An 11-channel AVR could do 5.1.4.2 and the Denon 8500 could do 7.1.4.2 with a Trinnov doing everything.

Real Atmos cinemas are in more need as they throw the side surrounds so high on the walls they might as well be side height channels.

I do wonder if some level of effect could be generated using binaural type clues (similar to DTS Virtual X only used concurrently with encoded data; it could probably be encoded in such a way tha a decoder wouldn't even be needed (e.g. Play a binaural recording back over a surround system in multi-channel stereo and you will typically get about 80% of the intended effect, more if levels are carefully set and the sounds aren't expected to be too close to the listener).

In other words, ground effects could potentially be added without changing a thing but the encoded bed channels themselves to contain the clues needed to make you think there are ground level sounds in some scenes.

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post #1728 of 1845 Old 03-08-2019, 10:01 AM
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I think two on the side would have been sufficient for one row of seating as I wouldn't anticipate much front to back panning for puddles, rivers or explosions.
Realistically, how often would mixers want to put sounds into such channels?

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post #1729 of 1845 Old 03-08-2019, 12:21 PM
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I think two on the side would have been sufficient for one row of seating as I wouldn't anticipate much front to back panning for puddles, rivers or explosions.
Realistically, how often would mixers want to put sounds into such channels?
I dunno, how often do they put them into the overheads??? Based on the 130 Atmos movies I have so far, I'd say definitely not nearly often enough or loud enough. I get more overhead sound from Neural X than I do half or more of my Atmos or DTS:X ones. The Fast and he Furious (original) sounds great in DTS:X, but point to one noticeably overhead sound in the entire movie. I sure don't recall any. I did notice some rear bed sounds not in the 5.1 soundtrack, but that's hardly taking advantage of DTS:X.

But when you have people that work in the industry telling me that studio and theater setups with Atmos side surrounds mounted nearly at ceiling height is OK and doesn't matter despite the home recommended ear height then is it really a small wonder when they can't tell a side sound from a ceiling one and we end up with mostly bed sounds because they saw no need to fully use the ceiling speakers much when it sounded so nice and overhead already with the side bed surrounds mounted 8 feet above their heads already in the studio?

I tended to take certain people's word that they know what they're doing and the studio setup doesn't matter as it's taken into account somehow with DSP or whatever, but I've concluded that's horse crap, after listening to 50 crappy to mediocre soundtracks and maybe 30 really good ones that actually make good use of the overheads. Hell, some barely made use of surround, let alone overheads (e.g. DTS:X on The Big Lebowski or Atmos with Labyrinth) while something like Megamind was awesome sounding in mere 7.1 + Neural X. Maybe that's not why those soundtracks weren't impressive, but I've got to wonder the point of bed sides near the ceiling. Auromax layouts actually look pretty good by comparison, having near ear level, side heights AND ceiling speakers in use. Sadly, they apparently don't get great use since ist cinema tracks just copy over the Atmos track from what I've read that can't make proper separate use of them all.

Meanwhile, some immersive soundtracks (e.g. Overlord and the original Jumanji in Atmos, Harry Potter and Crimson Peak in DTS:X or Red Tails and Flatliners in Auro-3D to name a few really impressive ones I've heard) show that it CAN work great if the right person mixes it.

Some binaural effects injected in key movies like the Temple of Doom where it makes sense to give foot or under foot level sounds sure sounds like a great idea to me. I want more immersion not less. I didn't install all these speakers just to listen to Casablanca in mono, after all, great movie that it is.

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post #1730 of 1845 Old 03-13-2019, 05:58 PM
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I've really enjoyed reading through this thread and even Magnum's "Walls of Text". There's a lot of good ideas here.

I'm thinking about something here and I'd like to get some input, and I apologize if I missed this being discussed somewhere before. I have my old Denon x1200 serving as one of my Scatmos receivers. The 1200 is a 5.2.2 receiver and you can assign the .2 as Front Heights, Rear Heights, Top Middles, etc. So let's say I use Neural X or DSU and assign the .2 as Front Heights for example and instead use those two speakers as side heights on that side of the room. Or assign them as Top Middle and stick them somewhere accordingly on the ceiling in addition to the other ceiling units.

Would this be beneficial at all or am I just crazed thinking about how many speakers I can shove into my room?
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post #1731 of 1845 Old 03-14-2019, 12:21 AM
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I've really enjoyed reading through this thread and even Magnum's "Walls of Text". There's a lot of good ideas here.

I'm thinking about something here and I'd like to get some input, and I apologize if I missed this being discussed somewhere before. I have my old Denon x1200 serving as one of my Scatmos receivers. The 1200 is a 5.2.2 receiver and you can assign the .2 as Front Heights, Rear Heights, Top Middles, etc. So let's say I use Neural X or DSU and assign the .2 as Front Heights for example and instead use those two speakers as side heights on that side of the room. Or assign them as Top Middle and stick them somewhere accordingly on the ceiling in addition to the other ceiling units.

Would this be beneficial at all or am I just crazed thinking about how many speakers I can shove into my room?
If you only have a single height pair Atmos/DSU will send all heights sounds there regardless of position. With Neural:X and DTS:X you may get a somewhat intended effect. I wouldn't do it myself but let us know if it works.

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post #1732 of 1845 Old 03-19-2019, 02:18 PM
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I tried it out and, while ambient sound was being put out, its effect was negligible. But it got me thinking...currently, I've got my main Denon x4300 plus the 1200 and another older Denon serving as my Scatmos receivers. It's my understanding that the discreet center extraction will not work if you're using Audyssey Dynamic EQ, which I enjoy using from time to time. So, my TM speakers will be arrays most of the time.

So, I'm thinking of rearranging my setup: keeping the 4300 set to 7.2.4 (TF/TR) and using Zone 2 out into the 1200, which will be set to x.x.2 (TM). I'll need to use the third Denon to power a pair of channels from the 4300.

Will this make any difference in what sounds comes out of the those TM speakers? I know they still won't be fully discreet but I wonder if it'll be any kind improvement.
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post #1733 of 1845 Old 03-19-2019, 06:38 PM
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I tried it out and, while ambient sound was being put out, its effect was negligible. But it got me thinking...currently, I've got my main Denon x4300 plus the 1200 and another older Denon serving as my Scatmos receivers. It's my understanding that the discreet center extraction will not work if you're using Audyssey Dynamic EQ, which I enjoy using from time to time. So, my TM speakers will be arrays most of the time.



So, I'm thinking of rearranging my setup: keeping the 4300 set to 7.2.4 (TF/TR) and using Zone 2 out into the 1200, which will be set to x.x.2 (TM). I'll need to use the third Denon to power a pair of channels from the 4300.



Will this make any difference in what sounds comes out of the those TM speakers? I know they still won't be fully discreet but I wonder if it'll be any kind improvement.
With Audyssey enabled TOP MID extraction won't work at all. Set Audyssey to bypass and retest. Search this thread for "Audyssey" for the gruesome details.
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post #1734 of 1845 Old 03-19-2019, 07:08 PM
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With Audyssey enabled TOP MID extraction won't work at all. Set Audyssey to bypass and retest. Search this thread for "Audyssey" for the gruesome details.
That has not been my experience. I have Audyssey enabled and it works fine with top middle extraction here. It did stop working, but it could be "fixed" again with a simple adjustment to the speaker distances to re-align the phases (it took very little at that).

I started by playing with levels and it wouldn't fix it (I had noticed earlier that small level differences did not make it stop working either when it was working), but when I started playing with speaker relative distances, it kicked right back in again. The fact I was getting a LOT of sound from the top middle speakers despite massive leakage in the front/rear speakers on the top middle Atmos tone told me it was doing something still or I wouldn't have gotten any extraction at all. In fact, it sounded a lot like matrixed extraction (where the middle channel plays still in the front/rear channels too and creates an array effect), but something was still "off" sounding as it was very noticeable to the ears with the tones. What was off is that the timing was off (kind of like flutter echo or reverb, but not as bad).

It turned out I only had to adjust the speaker distance of one of the front/back channels until the two channels phase-aligned once again and I was back in business. I don't think those that tried it with Audyssey ever tried that. Small frequency corrections probably shouldn't knock out Pro Logic entirely (the new frequency corrected level differences are perhaps rejected to the mains, but that's only a few dB here and there where Audyssey altered the levels. But Audyssey must do something to change the phase alignment slightly and THAT puts most, if not all of the two signals out of phase/time alignment and thus it rejects most of the signal and you have leakage in the front/rear channels as loud or almost as loud as without. I played with the phase on each channel by changing one of the speakers in time and a simple 0.1 foot correction got it back to almost no leakage and it works fine again with Audyssey turned ON. It was plain as day from the seats when I first did Audyssey as the top middle tone was playing from all three speakers loudly. Once I adjusted the distance 0.1 feet, only the top middle speaker was playing at any audible level from the seats.

I can't guarantee this will work in every case with every kind of speakers (larger corrections may have more leakage), but clearly the phase mis-alignment is what screwed up Pro Logic extraction, not the frequency response changes Audyssey made as it's working fine again here. If there's a little bit more leakage due to the frequency response level changes, it's not noticeable. Audyssey probably only adjusts levels a few dB in a good room with matching drivers (the graphs I got showed 1-3dB changes at most in the before/after graphs it gave me). 3dB rejected to the front/rear would be hard to hear (it's not 100% "discrete" sounding even with Audyssey correction turned off as you can hear some small amount playing in the front/rear speakers with the top middle pink noise tone, but it's too quiet for me to hear from the seats. I have to be standing next to the speakers to hear it.
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post #1735 of 1845 Old 03-20-2019, 01:41 PM
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Magnum, that's an interesting discovery. Thanks.

Could it be possible to duplicate the Audyssey filters and such by using the MultEQ app and then tweaking the curves in "Ratbuddyssey"? Even if you could, would enabling DynamicEq kill it again?

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post #1736 of 1845 Old 03-20-2019, 02:06 PM
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Magnum, that's an interesting discovery. Thanks.

Could it be possible to duplicate the Audyssey filters and such by using the MultEQ app and then tweaking the curves in "Ratbuddyssey"? Even if you could, would enabling DynamicEq kill it again?
Possibly, but duplicating the filters seems like defeating the purpose of Audyssey to begin with in a way. Wouldn't it be better to use no filters (or just for bass/sub) than the "wrong" filters for some speakers?

DynamicEQ doesn't seem to hurt anything here. It's mostly for bass.

I'm not sure what in Audyssey changes/changed the phase here. My left side was still working without doing anything and the right side only needed a tiny change (0.1 feet in one speaker) to get it working again on the right side. All I can figure is the more correction, the more likely there is to be a possible issue. I'm also not certain if there's any difference between Dolby Pro Logic II and I in this regard. I'm using Pro Logic I. I don't know enough about its behavior, but it seems at least possible it could be more (or less?) tolerant of deviation than Pro Logic II for center extraction. I know Pro Logic II has additional options for center channel width and what not. But it seems like it should extract any in common in-phase information (which if you think about it should not be entirely identical in each channel contrary to this "dual mono" theory because otherwise there would be no content whatsoever left in the front/rear height channels if it were ALL identical. It extracts in common in-phase information and the more it starts to separate, the more is leaked to the front/rear (normally left/right) channels to the point where nothing is in common and it all goes to the respective front/back (left/right) channels. This is how you get nice and even panning between the left/center/right channels. If it's largely all or mostly being rejected, then there's little to nothing in common in-phase.

When the distance setting was off, I had top middle output with the test tone, but I had a LOT of output in the front/rear channels as well. When I moved the distance 0.1 feet, ~95-98% went to the top middle with only a tiny bit going to front/rear (not audible at MLP). I think 0.2 feet worked as well (I'd have to test it to be sure and see how far the range is), but at some point it got screwed up again the further the setting changed). So imagining two scopes with the aligning data, if you shift the entire sample in time to the left or right, it will start to have little to nothing in common and more and more will be rejected to the front/rear height speakers. Now imagining Audyssey changing frequency response curves (basically just levels at various frequencies), those changes might very well be rejected, but unless you have like a 10dB correction, you're unlikely to hear the rejected data at the front/rear speakers in an audible fashion and even then it would be over a very narrow bandwidth. I could imaging some weird sounds if there were huge swings there, but that's all theoretical.

I haven't noticed any problems so far with having Audyssey on. Turning on DynamicEQ doesn't seem to hurt it either. Everything is working well and my sound is pretty fantastic at this point (I don't say that lightly; I've been tinkering with placement, matrixed levels and room treatments for some time now and the final curves look pretty darn good. Top Middle doesn't get any EQ, but I haven't noticed any audible weirdness or changes in front/back pans through there (it was all pretty good sounding even without Audyssey; it just sounds a bit clearer in the vocals and a bit more even in the bass area now, which is mostly noticeable with familiar stereo albums played through the mains. I assume it's helping movies too, but that's harder to make comparisons when most of the correction in my room is fairly mild, especially out of the bass region.

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post #1737 of 1845 Old 03-20-2019, 02:17 PM
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I'm rereading this thread backwards and on page 17 post 508 Marc Alexander discovered the distance tweaking trick:

"I have Dynamic EQ on (for now, usually keep it off) and Dynamic Volume off, and my Top Middle extraction is still solid. Set your Speaker Distance units to Meters so you can make fine adjustments in cm. Adjust front or rear heights slightly (a few cm at a time) until you get a solid center extraction for Top Middles without bleeding into fronts and rears. I actually disconnected Top Middles so I could be sure nothing was bleeding out of the front or back heights. All I hear is the subwoofer when extraction is just right."
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post #1738 of 1845 Old 03-20-2019, 02:34 PM
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I'm rereading this thread backwards and on page 17 post 508 Marc Alexander discovered the distance tweaking trick:

"I have Dynamic EQ on (for now, usually keep it off) and Dynamic Volume off, and my Top Middle extraction is still solid. Set your Speaker Distance units to Meters so you can make fine adjustments in cm. Adjust front or rear heights slightly (a few cm at a time) until you get a solid center extraction for Top Middles without bleeding into fronts and rears. I actually disconnected Top Middles so I could be sure nothing was bleeding out of the front or back heights. All I hear is the subwoofer when extraction is just right."
And yet it is Marc that just posted it won't work with Audyssey. It'd be interesting to hear if he tried tweaking after the fact with Audyssey or not. Maybe I just got lucky here that there wasn't too many changes in those speakers by Audyssey?

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post #1739 of 1845 Old 03-20-2019, 02:39 PM
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And yet it is Marc that just posted it won't work with Audyssey. It'd be interesting to hear if he tried tweaking after the fact with Audyssey or not. Maybe I just got lucky here that there wasn't too many changes in those speakers by Audyssey?
I was so wrapped up with rereading the thread that I didn't realize it was the same Marc!
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post #1740 of 1845 Old 03-20-2019, 03:06 PM
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The MultEQ app also allows you to limit correction to the frequency of your choosing for each speaker. If the crossovers on your top speakers are at, say, 150, and you limit the correction all the way to 20hz (basically removing the correction all together), I wonder if that would also allow the center extraction to work properly.
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