Beyond 7.1.4... Multi-AVR set-up for Immersive Audio - Page 60 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1771 of 2130 Old 05-08-2019, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
The BOSS is a project you have to build, it is diy. Check the dedicated theater forum for the Hideaway thread, it’s all in there.
Got it - Thanks!
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post #1772 of 2130 Old 05-08-2019, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I too enjoy Wides. I have a 9.1.6 layout. I am using a single Atmos/Auro/dts:X processor running 7.1.4 (5.1.4 + Wides). I now have replaced my DPLII SSPs with Lexicon Logic 7 SSPs to generate the x.x.6 overhead layer. I still use a DPLII SSP to extract mono Sur Back which I feed to both rears (unless/until I find another Lexicon at a great price).
Out of curiosity what benefit do you think you get using Logic 7 to extract the Top Middle speakers vs. Dolby PLII? Are you just extracting a center signal on each side from the Front+Rear pairing? Seems like this is a pretty simple step which any upmixer can handle so wondering what Logic 7 does better here and how noticeable it is.

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I hope to compare this solution to a fully discrete 9.1.6 with the Monoprice HTP-1 soon. I like my current solution because it engages all of the speakers with Atmos, dts:X and Auro3D. As an upmixer, dts Neural X does a fine job of engaging Wides. I have no Wides with Dolby Surround or Auromatic in this setup.
Are you saying wides are active with native Auro3D but not with Auromatic? Or am I misreading? How does the Auro3D signal get to the wides if the primary Auro-capable processor is set up for 5.1.4+wides?

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post #1773 of 2130 Old 05-08-2019, 10:57 AM
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I thought about adding my 7010 for true wides, but feeding it into my current active mixer matrixed setup for wides. This would use true discrete wides when available, but use matrixed when they're not and it should be automatic since there should be no content between the two sets of speakers if true wides are active and even if there is some, it'd phantom there anyway so no harm no foul really. This would give the best of both worlds as mixed matrixed are great in stereo mode, IMO (wider image with more depth to it).

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post #1774 of 2130 Old 05-08-2019, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I too enjoy Wides. I have a 9.1.6 layout. I am using a single Atmos/Auro/dts:X processor running 7.1.4 (5.1.4 + Wides). I now have replaced my DPLII SSPs with Lexicon Logic 7 SSPs to generate the x.x.6 overhead layer. I still use a DPLII SSP to extract mono Sur Back which I feed to both rears (unless/until I find another Lexicon at a great price).
Didn't you have an MP-50?

If DTS:Pro is added to the HTP-1 I'm likely to jump over to that one as well come October.

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post #1775 of 2130 Old 05-08-2019, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Out of curiosity what benefit do you think you get using Logic 7 to extract the Top Middle speakers vs. Dolby PLII? Are you just extracting a center signal on each side from the Front+Rear pairing? Seems like this is a pretty simple step which any upmixer can handle so wondering what Logic 7 does better here and how noticeable it is.
I thought I knew Logic7 because I had it in my BMW and H/K AVRs. Turns out that is Logic7 lite. In the Lexicon there are more modes and more adjustability. I'm still experimenting to determine the benefits. So far, the most intriguing mode is L7 Music Surround. It remains to be seen if there are any downsides to this mode.
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MUSIC SURROUND
•A proprietary Lexicon listening mode.
•Similar to the MUSIC SURROUND listening mode in otherLexicon products.
•Designed for playback of 2-channel stereo music sourcesrecorded in real spaces and for playback of recordings thatcontain added reverb.
•Extracts ambient sounds from the input source and sends these sounds to all speakers. Ambient sounds are heard fromall directions, creating a realistic playback presentation thatsimulates what listeners experience in real spaces.
•Recommended for classical music sources, which are oftenrecorded in real spaces with added reverb to enhance the stereo mix.
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post #1776 of 2130 Old 05-08-2019, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
Didn't you have an MP-50?
Yes, Lyngdorf MP-50 at the moment. @madhuski is selling his Byston SP4 (StormAudio). If I can find a buyer for the MP-50 I will get his SP4 (then I will get his A16 down the road when he moves to the A32 ). If not I will stick with the MP-50 and A/B the ATP-1 to this setup.

I had previously been configuring 7.3.4 (w/Wides) by using matrixed Top Mid and using center extraction only for Sur Back. I simply did not have the rack space for 3 DPLII SSPs. I experimented with stacking some gear atop the rack cabinet and even atop subs. But when running 3 SSPs (Outlaw 950 & Rotel RSP-1068) the noise floor increased in the room. The Lyngdorf is so quiet its like a black hole. Having 9 sensitive speakers going through other SSPs took me out of that black hole.

I then started looking for SSPs with higher S/N and space savings. Now I have 3 SSPs in the space that previously only fit 2 [and wouldn't even fit 2 Yamaha AVRs].

I may keep these SSPs in the system because Dts Neural X-Pro simply can't be applied to Atmos tracks.

I have other ideas I'd like to try as well. I just got a Lumagen Pro (in addition to my HDFury Vertex and AVPro). In theory I should be able use a 9/11ch Neo X processor to provide my Wide and Sur Back. I just won't get Wides properly extracted if snap-to front is encoded (very rare). Then I can configure 5.3.6 in the MP-50. Please punch holes in this idea.
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post #1777 of 2130 Old 05-08-2019, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
So far, the most intriguing mode is L7 Music Surround.
L7 Music Surround mode was designed for introducing 2-channel listeners to surround playback. The incoming L/R channels were sent unmolested to their respective L/R speakers, just like with a 2-speaker set-up. Subtle centre & surround extraction was sent to the centre & surround speakers. The intent was to sound as close as possible to 2-speaker playback, but with a slightly more stable front soundstage and a bit of ambience, thereby avoiding the sound of typical surround processing.

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post #1778 of 2130 Old 05-08-2019, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
L7 Music Surround mode was designed for introducing 2-channel listeners to surround playback. The incoming L/R channels were sent unmolested to their respective L/R speakers, just like with a 2-speaker set-up. Subtle centre & surround extraction was sent to the centre & surround speakers. The intent was to sound as close as possible to 2-speaker playback, but with a slightly more stable front soundstage and a bit of ambience, thereby avoiding the sound of typical surround processing.
Thanks Sanjay. Before purchasing the MC4 & AV1 I read some of the old discussions at both AVS and HiFiVision and I see you and Manoj are the guys in the know!

I'm a tweaker and like flexibility. In addition to the L7 modes DPLII is still an option.

How do Music and Music Surround differ? I currently have Front Steering set to FILM and Auto Azimuth ON.
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FRONT STEERING OFF, MSURR, MUSIC, FILM
Adjusts front steering between the front left, front right and center speakers. When set to FILM, maximum front steering is applied to the center channel. When set to MUSIC, moderate front steering is applied. When set to MSURR, minimum front steering is applied. When set to OFF, no front steering is applied. It is recommended that you set this parameter to FILM for film and broadcast sources and to MUSIC, MSURR or OFF for music sources.

AUTO AZIMUTH ON, OFF
Maximizes matrix steering accuracy. When set to ON, the MC-4 continually monitors the 2-channel input signal and automatically adjusts the relative level and time offset of the input channels to ensure that signals are sent to the appropriate channels with maximum separation. When set to OFF, the accuracy of the selected listening mode varies among sources. It is recommended that you set this parameter to ON for film and broadcast sources and to OFF for music sources.

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 05-08-2019 at 02:18 PM.
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post #1779 of 2130 Old 05-08-2019, 02:40 PM
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How do Music and Music Surround differ?
Music mode has more steered to the centre and surrounds. The four settings you quoted are in order of aggressiveness, from OFF (no steering) to FILM (maximum extraction).
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I currently have Front Steering set to FILM and Auto Azimuth ON.
That will give you max separation when splitting 2 channels into 3. Auto Azimuth has no effect on modern recordings (anything recorded/mixed in the digital era).
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post #1780 of 2130 Old 05-08-2019, 03:26 PM
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I may keep these SSPs in the system because Dts Neural X-Pro simply can't be applied to Atmos tracks.
Neural X can still be applied to PCM. So output the base 7.1 True-HD to PCM over HDMI and you're in business with Neural X.

Frankly, Neural X does a better job sometimes (about half the time, IMO) than the mixers do with actual Atmos. Most film mixers are far FAR too gun shy with Atmos. Overall, it has been very disappointing (but then so are many 5.1/7.1 tracks too that only use surrounds during heavy action bits and leave them darn near silent the rest of the time even though that is nothing like real life). I've gotten far better results with old movies using Neural X than half the Atmos tracks out there and that's saying something (bad about Atmos). The same is true of DTS:X as well with several movies (e.g. A movie like The Big Lebowski might as well just be in Pro Logic it's so horrible as a discrete soundtrack example let alone DTS:X). There have been a few really good Atmos and X tracks (Jumanji Original 4K, Crimson Peak, Harry Potter movies, Hunter Killer, Overlord, etc.) but a whole lot of "MEH" ones (IMO). I'd even give two thumbs up to Groundhog Day's Atmos track because while there's not a lot for that movie to do, the mixing guy does a LOT with what he's given. Every scene has ambience at good volume from all directions, even if it's calling attention to unimportant things. You really feel like your'e there outdoors with Bill Murray in some of those scenes. Compare that to Ghostbusters Atmos remix where ambience is used here and there only. Blah.

I want ALL surround ALL the time! It's not immersive if you're rarely immersed. I believe the problem is there's still this notion that surround sound is "distracting" away from things like dialog or what's on-screen so some only use it when big action scenes are happening. The problem is that is not immersive in the slightest. That's old school. Real life doesn't get quiet all around except the guy talking unless you're in an auditorium and even then there's more sound around you than in some of these movies. Or the movie will use overhead sound but it's turned way down compared to sound in the front or side surround speakers...awful just awful. There's people at Audioholics that turn their overheads up by 6dB because they can't hear the darn overhead sound effects because they're being treated like teeny tiny speakers that they might damage instead of full range speakers that should get full blast just like every other speaker in Atmos or X! Disney is egregious in this regard. They treat their soundtracks like everyone owns an El Cheapo soundbar! So what if they do? It's the soundbar's job to limit the signal so it doesn't destroy the thing, not the studio's job to protect cheap gear! Ridiculous is the word I'd use. Ralph Breaks the Internet's BEST Atmos surround moment is the closing credits when they finally crank everything evenly and you've got this nice music bubble around you with some actual bass in it.... It had some nice 7.1 moments, but only a couple of overhead spots (and my overheads are set to 1dB louder than reference). The Dolby Atmos demos are all like "YEAH BABY!" and then the real movies? Not so much.

But Neural X ignores all that thinking and simply moves sounds to the overheads under certain conditions. So long as the 5.1 or 7.1 soundtrack has strong bed surround use, you'll get strong overhead sound when it ends up there. I think I've possibly heard far more consistent overhead sound quality from Neural X than the real thing for this reason. It's easy to hear overhead sounds with Neural X. I find myself straining to hear something up there half the time with Atmos. I keep waiting for something big to happen and it really doesn't (e.g. Ralph Breaks the Internet).

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post #1781 of 2130 Old 05-08-2019, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I may keep these SSPs in the system because Dts Neural X-Pro simply can't be applied to Atmos tracks.
Why would you want to apply an upmixer to an immersive track? Is it to "fix" Disney's 7.1.4 mixes?

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post #1782 of 2130 Old 05-09-2019, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I may keep these SSPs in the system because Dts Neural X-Pro simply can't be applied to Atmos tracks.
Why would you want to apply an upmixer to an immersive track? Is it to "fix" Disney's 7.1.4 mixes?
Exactamundo.

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post #1783 of 2130 Old 05-12-2019, 01:37 PM
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Why would you want to apply an upmixer to an immersive track? Is it to "fix" Disney's 7.1.4 mixes?
Pretty much, to upmix Dts:X, Auro3D, and Atmos 11.1 mixes.

The Dts Neo X idea I tossed around doesn't work for me because Neo X can't be applied to Dolby tracks (at least in the Denon X4000). The plan was to feed the same Atmos track to the primary and secondary SSPs. The secondary would ignore the Atnos metadata and decode the core. While converting to LPCM could work, it is just too complex (too many devices) to retain the Atmos track to one yet feed LPCM to another.

Much of what I experiment with is in order to understand the whats & hows. Often for reasons beyond just my own setup.

It appears that Lexicon Logic 7 Film mode is the best L7 mode to use for 2ch-to-3ch processing. It may not prove to be any different than DPLII.
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post #1784 of 2130 Old 05-18-2019, 07:25 PM
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I finally tested out the "MP4" version of the Dolby Atmos 9.1.6 channel test demo (downloaded it using the Mac downloading tool provided at Dolby) and I can verify it indeed has that awful "snap to" mode turned off for the front wides test, letting me verify the correct 'matrixed' level for the front wides (I was pretty darn close using another method, within 1.5dB). Now if only they had a demo that did the same for the Surround #2 (rear wide) location. It was easier to set, though since I could use imaging from the 2nd/3rd rows to get the effect I wanted from the matrixed speaker set.

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post #1785 of 2130 Old 05-20-2019, 10:31 AM
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I apologize if the details are all within this thread but hoping you all can provide feedback on getting decent 9.1.6 from two Marantz AVP's:


I currently have the Marantz 8802A, Oppo 203, and three 7 channel Emotiva amps. I primarily watch 1080p and Ultra HD Blu-rays.


Can I add a Marantz 7702 MKII, feed it audio from the second HDMI out from the Oppo and use it to process just Top Fronts and Top Rears while the 8802A processes 9.1.2 with Wides and Top Middle?
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post #1786 of 2130 Old 05-20-2019, 10:54 AM
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I apologize if the details are all within this thread but hoping you all can provide feedback on getting decent 9.1.6 from two Marantz AVP's:

I currently have the Marantz 8802A, Oppo 203, and three 7 channel Emotiva amps. I primarily watch 1080p and Ultra HD Blu-rays.

Can I add a Marantz 7702 MKII, feed it audio from the second HDMI out from the Oppo and use it to process just Top Fronts and Top Rears while the 8802A processes 9.1.2 with Wides and Top Middle?
That should work, although of course (as I assume you are aware) there will be duplicated content between the TF/TR and the TM speakers.

You could also do this much more cheaply by selling one of the 7ch Emotivas and instead using an inexpensive Marantz AVR like an SR6012 for the TF+TR speakers since there will be amplification built in for the 4 overheads.

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post #1787 of 2130 Old 05-20-2019, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by IA_Hi_Fi_Guy View Post
I apologize if the details are all within this thread but hoping you all can provide feedback on getting decent 9.1.6 from two Marantz AVP's:


I currently have the Marantz 8802A, Oppo 203, and three 7 channel Emotiva amps. I primarily watch 1080p and Ultra HD Blu-rays.


Can I add a Marantz 7702 MKII, feed it audio from the second HDMI out from the Oppo and use it to process just Top Fronts and Top Rears while the 8802A processes 9.1.2 with Wides and Top Middle?
Click the link in my signature and scroll down to post 5. It is easier to just use ZONE2 out on one AVR feeding the second one.
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post #1788 of 2130 Old 05-20-2019, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
That should work, although of course (as I assume you are aware) there will be duplicated content between the TF/TR and the TM speakers.

You could also do this much more cheaply by selling one of the 7ch Emotivas and instead using an inexpensive Marantz AVR like an SR6012 for the TF+TR speakers since there will be amplification built in for the 4 overheads.

Thanks. Right now I have the TF and TM pairs both receiving TF signals. Would going my proposed route be an improvement or a step backward for sound from above? Obviously adding in the wides will be beneficial for certain soundtracks.


I would definitely entertain the AVR option if I didn't need that 3rd amp. Unfortunately I have 3 pair of side surround speakers so I would still need amplification for 15 speakers unless I also drove the rear surrounds with the SR6012. It could work. Accessories 4 less has a nice deal on refurb SR6012's right now.


Does the SR6012 allow cross upmixing like my 8802A? I don't want that limitation.
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post #1789 of 2130 Old 05-20-2019, 12:46 PM
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Click the link in my signature and scroll down to post 5. It is easier to just use ZONE2 out on one AVR feeding the second one.
Thank you! Somehow I had missed your excellent thread. I see now that running the second AVP or AVR through Zone 2 makes more sense so I can control volume and sound format seamlessly.
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post #1790 of 2130 Old 05-20-2019, 01:48 PM
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Thanks. Right now I have the TF and TM pairs both receiving TF signals. Would going my proposed route be an improvement or a step backward for sound from above? Obviously adding in the wides will be beneficial for certain soundtracks.
So right now you're running 7.1.4 with no wides, and the TF+TM speaker pairs sharing the TF signal and the TR pair getting a discrete TR signal, correct?

It would definitely be an improvement for the overheads as you'd get more discrete localization / panning of overhead sounds.

If there's a signal intended for TM, then the 8802 will send that signal to the TM speaker pair, whereas the 2nd processor will split the signal between TF+TR. So you'll effectively get an overhead array with a little more emphasis on TM (since the level will be reduced to TF+TR when the signal is split).

If there's a sound intended for TF, it will be split between TF+TM, and if there's a sound intended for TR it will be split between TM+TR, so you'll still got front vs. rear distinction but it will be a mini-array which may actually help in a multi-seat environment by broadening the coverage.

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Originally Posted by IA_Hi_Fi_Guy View Post
I would definitely entertain the AVR option if I didn't need that 3rd amp. Unfortunately I have 3 pair of side surround speakers so I would still need amplification for 15 speakers unless I also drove the rear surrounds with the SR6012. It could work. Accessories 4 less has a nice deal on refurb SR6012's right now.
So you have 3 pairs of side surrounds AND you're going to add wides? Or will the front pair of side surrounds be repurposed as the wides?

If the latter, then you'll only need 13 channels of amplification (3 for LCR, 2 wides, 4 surrounds, 2 surround backs, 2 top middle) and TF+TR can be amplified by a second AVR.

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Does the SR6012 allow cross upmixing like my 8802A? I don't want that limitation.
Yes, the limitations on cross-format upmixing kick in with current (2019 release) models and newer, it's not retro'd to older models.

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post #1791 of 2130 Old 05-20-2019, 02:53 PM
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So right now you're running 7.1.4 with no wides, and the TF+TM speaker pairs sharing the TF signal and the TR pair getting a discrete TR signal, correct?
Yes, exactly. How you describe it matches my assumption...thanks!



[/quote] So you have 3 pairs of side surrounds AND you're going to add wides? Or will the front pair of side surrounds be repurposed as the wides? [/quote]

The former. I have 3 pairs of direct radiating speakers for my side surrounds. Two rows of seating. First pair is slightly in front of first row, second pair is between first and second row, and the 3rd paid is slightly behind the second row. It basically creates bipolar surround for each row.


I have another set of speakers for wides angled 45 degrees toward the middle listening position. My room is 25 feet long. My set up allows for a speaker every 5-6 feet all the way around the room. Wish I could afford the Trinnov and really take advantage of it.


[/quote] Yes, the limitations on cross-format upmixing kick in with current (2019 release) models and newer, it's not retro'd to older models. [/quote]


That's good to know. I was leaning towards the AVP 7702 MKII figuring that its sonic characteristics would pretty much match the 8802A but I'm sure the 6012 would be very close. Certainly not as critical to match if I'm just running two sets of tops and a set of rear surrounds off of it.


What's the general rule on which formats can engage the wides? Is it basically any DTS version?

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post #1792 of 2130 Old 05-20-2019, 02:58 PM
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What's the general rule on which formats can engage the wides? Is it basically any DTS version?
Native Atmos will engage the wides, as will DTS Neural:X / DTS:X as long as you don't exceed the 11ch limit.

That's an advantage of what you are doing vs. just swapping to an 8805 and running 9.1.4 for example. With an 8805, DTS:X / Neural:X playback would be 7.1.4 and the wides would be silent. But since your 8802 will be running 9.1.2, DTS:X and Neural:X will output to all 9.1.2 speakers and then the extra x.x.4 will also be engaged from the 2nd processor as neither processor is exceeding 11 channels.

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post #1793 of 2130 Old 05-20-2019, 03:05 PM
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A few new developments for me.

I just discovered that Lexicon (MC-4/8/12) actually digitizes the multi-ch inputs. This means Logic7 can be used to extract Surr Back from a 5ch input. My next step is to determine what happens when only the Side Surr is fed into the Logic7 5.1→7.1 processing.

TL; DR
I have a Bryston SP4 (StormAudio) on its way to me for delivery by Friday!

The Lyngdorf MP-50 is being moved downstairs to the den (5.3.2).
Spoiler!


I submitted two feature requests to Lyngdorf. One to allow speaker layout changes without restarting RoomPerfect. The other to allow remapping of the XLR outputs. Lyngdorf will not be offering either option. (I will post more details in the MP-50 thread.)

I must admit that I am disappointed. The Lyngdorf is a fine piece and just lacking the flexibility I expect in a 16ch processor. The European and Americn approaches to home cinema differ a bit. Lyngdorf reflects this.
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post #1794 of 2130 Old 05-20-2019, 04:16 PM
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I submitted two feature requests to Lyngdorf. One to allow speaker layout changes without restarting RoomPerfect. The other to allow remapping of the XLR outputs. Lyngdorf will not be offering either option. (I will post more details in the MP-50 thread.)

I must admit that I am disappointed. The Lyngdorf is a fine piece and just lacking the flexibility I expect in a 16ch processor. The European and Americn approaches to home cinema differ a bit. Lyngdorf reflects this.
Not sure Storm Audio and in particular Trinnov owners would agree. Both come from French companies.

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post #1795 of 2130 Old 05-20-2019, 04:20 PM
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I just discovered that Lexicon (MC-4/8/12) actually digitizes the multi-ch inputs.
I think only the MC-12 does that. Doubt the others have 3 pairs of A-to-D converters.

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post #1796 of 2130 Old 05-20-2019, 07:22 PM
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Not sure Storm Audio and in particular Trinnov owners would agree. Both come from French companies.
These have Pro applications, no?
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post #1797 of 2130 Old 05-20-2019, 08:06 PM
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These have Pro applications, no?
Remapping speaker locations (i.e. putting two top middles as an Auro VOG, or switching a speaker designation to/from front heights and top fronts based on DTS:X use, with the physical speakers located in a place where that was doable) is easy to do on the Altitude Speaker Configuration Menu. Likewise copying side surrounds or mains at a lower level to the wides speaker location when using an upmixer like DSU or Auromatic. Any user could do that as long as they know what they're doing, or turn to a pro calibrator/HT designer if they've the coin or don't want to get that hands-on.

And Trinnov works with channels; so you can take XLR 1 to 16 and have one preset where, say, channel 8 and 9 are top fronts for Atmos, and switch that to be front heights for DTS:X if the positioning makes sense physically. You just have to run a calibration where the angles and physical location make sense to support that, or are close enough that you can use 3D remapping without creating artifacts.

Basically, with the Speaker Configuration Menu, you can take a given channel and switch anything to it. So I could do something weird if I wanted to like have LFH, CH, and RFH, and set up a preset where we play left, center, and right channel content from the ceiling . Or the time I was curious about whether I could hear different content between front heights and top fronts; I temporarily renamed by top middles to be top fronts on a test preset, and played some Atmos content with heavy overhead use.

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post #1798 of 2130 Old 05-20-2019, 08:13 PM
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@sdrucker I meant that Datasat, Trinnov, StormAudio are sold into the PA arena for commercial use.
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post #1799 of 2130 Old 05-20-2019, 08:31 PM
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@sdrucker I meant that Datasat, Trinnov, StormAudio are sold into the PA arena for commercial use.
I don't know about Storm, but if you mean Pro Audio, yes, Trinnov (and Datasat on the Pro Cinema side) historically had roots there before also moving into the consumer A/V space this decade.

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post #1800 of 2130 Old 05-21-2019, 07:35 AM
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Native Atmos will engage the wides, as will DTS Neural:X / DTS:X as long as you don't exceed the 11ch limit.
Neural:X, yes. Unfortunately, most DTS:X soundtracks are encoded as 7.1.4 channels without sound objects and don't use the Wides.

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