Beyond 7.1.4... Multi-AVR set-up for Immersive Audio - Page 62 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1831 of 2066 Old 05-24-2019, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rickyhgarcia View Post
I can wait until September. Somewhere I read that it is ATI and Datasat who are developing the Monolith unit. Is this so?
Monoprice has a relationship with ATI as they OEM the Monolith amplifiers. And they are not far apart both based here in Southern California. So there's a presumption on the part of enthusiasts that ATI is involved in some respect the design and production.

ATI bought Datasat a couple years ago and already owns Theta Digital so they have a lot of internal subject matter expertise on developing high end / high channel count processors. This is why many are optimistic that the Monolith HTP won't have the same problems with bugs and delays that Emotiva has had, since there will be superior infrastructure and fewer growing pains. Fingers crossed! If they can deliver a stable, high performing 16ch processor with Dirac for $4K they are going to blow a hole in the enthusiast processor market.

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post #1832 of 2066 Old 05-24-2019, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
So you are doing up-firing Atmos speakers? Or are you mounting physical speakers up top? What you're describing sounds like quite a bit of overkill, that's a $4,000 investment for the overhead layer, which seems excessive especially if you're talking about bouncing the sound. Are in-ceiling speakers not an option?



I don't see why you wouldn't go for the Marantz 8805. It is extremely high quality, gets rave reviews for sound quality, is extremely flexible and capable, and most importantly it just works. It's a fully mature product from a huge company with many more resources than a boutique brand like Emotiva that hasn't had hardly a complaint about bugs or stability in the owner's thread.

The other option staying below $5K if you aren't going over 7.1.4 would be the Anthem AVM-60, also good audiophile chops and excellent ARC room correction which supposedly has improved a lot with a recent update to ARC "Genesis" which is a new iteration.

It has to be up-firing because the ceiling in my attic is solid concrete...


I am not against Marantz, as I have own a Marantz AV7005 for the last six years without a hitch. Just that there was so much hype about the Emotiva RMC-1, with it being 16 channels, made in the USA, Dirac, under $5k and so on, that I put all my attention on this product, until I read the owners threads here and at Emotiva Lounge. That prompted my questions. Even better, the AV8805 can be bought for as low as $3100.
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post #1833 of 2066 Old 05-24-2019, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Monoprice has a relationship with ATI as they OEM the Monolith amplifiers. And they are not far apart both based here in Southern California. So there's a presumption on the part of enthusiasts that ATI is involved in some respect the design and production.

ATI bought Datasat a couple years ago and already owns Theta Digital so they have a lot of internal subject matter expertise on developing high end / high channel count processors. This is why many are optimistic that the Monolith HTP won't have the same problems with bugs and delays that Emotiva has had, since there will be superior infrastructure and fewer growing pains. Fingers crossed! If they can deliver a stable, high performing 16ch processor with Dirac for $4K they are going to blow a hole in the enthusiast processor market.

OK...got it...an ATI/Datasat/Monolith collaboration on the Monolith AV processor is at this time only speculation. Good to know...
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post #1834 of 2066 Old 05-24-2019, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rickyhgarcia View Post
I think 7 big speakers is all I can fit in my listening room. So maybe 7.1.4 or 7.2.4 would be my limit. The 16 channels processors are overkill.



And thank you for replying!!
The advice in this thread is starting to sound more like audiophile magic than a sensible system if you only want 7.1.4. or 7.2.4. This time of year the current model year many Marantz units drop in price big time. A 7013 plus a 2-channel amp would do up to 7.2.4 for a fraction of the price of the 8805, Monoprice or Emotiva units. That money could be better used elsewhere than "just in case" you want more speakers later or whatever. The NAD mentioned at the current going prices isn't a bad deal and has DIRAC (you'd need 4-channels of external amplification for 7.x.4, though). The Marantz has Auro-3D and app-based Audyssey. The rest are beyond what you appear to need in your room, IMO. My 7012 has been great, thus far.
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post #1835 of 2066 Old 05-25-2019, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Try another DTS:X title and double check whether you were configured for 9.1.4 or 9.1.2. IF the latter, then Wides should have been active. DTS hates silent speakers, so your Denon should give you the option of feeding the Wides an extracted centre output between the Fronts & Sides OR a copy of the Sides. Either way, they shouldn't be silent. Again, this assumes a 9.1.2 configuration. A second pair of heights gets priority over the Wides, so DTS:X will switch to 7.1.4.
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Well, now I'm wondering if this is because they are IMAX Enhanced DTS titles and something about the IMAX flag engaging disables / supercedes the Neural:X upmixing parameter?

Just a funny coincidence that the only two titles you tested are the two IMAX Enhanced ones.

I don't think you can finalize your conclusion without trying a "normal" DTS:X disc.
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I'll look at Gladiator later tonight. I can do a 9.1.2 preset with rear surrounds and wides but only a pair of top middles, vs. a 7.1.4 setup (no surround backs, just wides, and FH/RH) and compare.
In the interest of science, I stopped at Best Buy today and picked up a copy of The Big Lebowski on UHD. DTS:X soundtrack. My receiver still configured for 9.1.2 (5.1 +SB +FW +FH). As before, the Front Wide channels are completely silent. I then disabled the Surround Backs (5.1 +FW +FH) and the Wides came to life.

I think this confirms that, in DTS:X, Front Wides cannot be used at the same time as Surround Backs. It's one or the other.
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post #1836 of 2066 Old 05-25-2019, 02:48 PM
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In the interest of science, I stopped at Best Buy today and picked up a copy of The Big Lebowski on UHD. DTS:X soundtrack. My receiver still configured for 9.1.2 (5.1 +SB +FW +FH). As before, the Front Wide channels are completely silent. I then disabled the Surround Backs (5.1 +FW +FH) and the Wides came to life.

I think this confirms that, in DTS:X, Front Wides cannot be used at the same time as Surround Backs. It's one or the other.
Not on the Altitude 32, at least.

I just put the Gladiator UHD disc in DTS:X on, configured my setup for 9.1.2 (LCR, Ls/Rs, Lsr/Rsr (left/right rear surrounds), Lw/Rw, and one pair of top speakers) on the Speaker Configuration Menu, and all nine channels light up including the wides and surround backs as soon as the movie starts on the Input side of my Processor bars. I got the same results whether I have front heights, top fronts, top middles, top rears or rear heights as the single pair of height speakers. And that's with remapping disabled and no speaker arrays/copying. Yes, the wides are audible as are the surround backs even aside from the meters.

Hmmm....it might be due to the DSP manufacturers implementing a subset of the possible configurations for DTS:X, excluding the combination(s) we tested. As far as I know of, Trinnov is implementing the DTS:X code they got from DTS as is. For certification purposes, they can't modify it. We don't have DTS:X Pro yet so I have the same channel limit as anyone else with DTS:X.

Wonder if any other DSP processors have been tested and have the same limitations as you're finding with wides and surround backs.

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post #1837 of 2066 Old 05-25-2019, 02:56 PM
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I was sure front wides worked on my 7010 in 9.1.2 with DTS:X, but I'd have to swap my receivers out to test it for certain (PITA with all my pre-outs connected, etc.).

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post #1838 of 2066 Old 05-25-2019, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Not on the Altitude 32, at least.

I just put the Gladiator UHD disc in DTS:X on, configured my setup for 9.1.2 (LCR, Ls/Rs, Lb/Rb (left/right rear surrounds), Lw/Rw, and one pair of top speakers) on the Speaker Configuration Menu, and all nine channels light up including the wides and surround backs as soon as the movie starts on the Input side of my Processor bars. I got the same results whether I have front heights, top fronts, top middles, top rears or rear heights as the single pair of height speakers. And that's with remapping disabled and no speaker arrays/copying. Yes, the wides are audible as are the surround backs even aside from the meters.

Hmmm....it might be due to the DSP manufacturers implementing a subset of the possible configurations for DTS:X, excluding the combination(s) we tested. As far as I know of, Trinnov is implementing the DTS:X code they got from DTS as is, with pretty much any flexibility you want within the current 11 channel limit for defined DTS:X locations. For certification purposes, they can't modify it. We don't have DTS:X Pro yet so I have the same channel limit as anyone else with DTS:X.

Wonder if any other DSP processors have been tested and have the same limitations as you're finding with wides and surround backs.
I will double check my Marantz SR7010 tomorrow, I'm certain it works as well or it has been very good at tricking me for the past 2 years.

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post #1839 of 2066 Old 05-26-2019, 12:02 AM
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MF’er, Josh is right. I just confirmed his result with my Denon 8500.

This definitely is NOT how it used to work. People were testing this thoroughly when DTS:X came out and it totally worked in 9.1.2.

So as JZ reported the wides do NOT play ANYTHING on the 8500 in 9.1.2 mode. I tested both disabling the back surrounds (7.1.2 or 7.1.4 with FW instead of SB) and the wides were super active. Interestingly the Neural:X parameter didn’t seem to have any effect at all.

I also tested 9.1.0 (heights totally disabled) and the wides lit up again. But in this Config the Neural:X parameter functioned, and the wides were silent with it turned off.

I assume this means with FW instead of SB the DTS:X algorithm “shifts” the surround content forward like Atmos to make use of the available speakers. So the wides are playing surround content whether or not you turn on the Neural:X parameter.

This thread is a great place to hash this out since there are a number of older models with wide support in use. Post Marantz 7010 / Denon 6200 the wides weren’t supported at all for a couple of years until they resurfaced on the 8500. So it’s entirely plausible something changed in the interim.

But it strikes me as a bug. There’s no reason the Neural:X expansion of DTS:X shouldn’t work on a 9.1.2 setup.

With the Custom amp assign mode I’m able to turn off all speaker outputs except the wides which makes this stuff easy to hear. The funny part is when I set the .2 as “Top Front” instead of “Front Height” the wides make some noises which clearly is due to the “leaking” to the base layer when they are labeled “Top” instead of “Front”. Switch to Front Height or Top Middle and no noise.

Even funnier / sadder is I was using a DTS:X demo disc and the clip was showing all these speakers and flashing marketing buzzwords like “flexible” and “immersive”. (Facepalm)

Man DTS is a mess 😞
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post #1840 of 2066 Old 05-26-2019, 12:18 AM
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Postscript for some additional non DTS:X testing.

Was curious if Neural:X upmixing of legacy channel based audio was impacted.

Played a 7.1 DTS Master Audio clip with a 9.1.2 configuration.

Wides silent without upmixing, making noise with DTS + Neural:X. All good.

Then on a whim I disabled SB so I was running 7.1.2 with FW only.

Get this - the wides make noise with no upmixing! The straight 7.1 DTS track pushes audio forward to the wides with SB disabled. So DTS definitely does some “native” forward mapping when SB is disabled but FW is active regadles of DTS:X or regular old DTS.

There was a difference between the sound in the wides from the “mapping” when SB is disabled vs Neural:X upmix. With N:X you’d hear music and dialogue and additional effects indicating the expected center output of L/R + SL/SR. Vs the surround content pushing forward to the wides the straight DTS 7.1 track and no SB.

This all makes me believe the Neural:X parameter with DTS:X is completely nonfunctional on the 8500.

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post #1841 of 2066 Old 05-26-2019, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
This all makes me believe the Neural:X parameter with DTS:X is completely nonfunctional on the 8500.
I'm intrigued how the 8805 is dealing with DTS:X as that is same generation/channel processing as the 8500. Anyone got one to try?

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post #1842 of 2066 Old 05-26-2019, 06:24 AM
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Hi,I tested gladiator and a lot more on my marantz sr 7010 and it Works flawless in 9.2.2! The wides are active all the time!

Gr Kurt
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post #1843 of 2066 Old 05-26-2019, 07:21 AM
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Hi,I tested gladiator and a lot more on my marantz sr 7010 and it Works flawless in 9.2.2! The wides are active all the time!

Gr Kurt
I KNEW IT! Just the 8500 sucks!

Denon probably borked something in one of their firmware "updates". Go Denon!

If DTS is a "mess" then WTF is Atmos? It can't even use wides in the Dolby Surround Upmixer and makes mono overheads with it. THAT is a real mess. DTS just needs some tweaks. DTS:X Pro will put Dolby to shame using up to 32 speakers with every movie while Dolby is paralyzed with 7.1.4 as studios all start moving to Disney's "Crapmouse" model.

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post #1844 of 2066 Old 05-26-2019, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Not on the Altitude 32, at least.
Nor the RS20i and Marantz 7702mkII. Must have changed for current gen, or maybe just the D&M flagships.

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post #1845 of 2066 Old 05-26-2019, 09:38 AM
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I'm intrigued how the 8805 is dealing with DTS:X as that is same generation/channel processing as the 8500. Anyone got one to try?
I would expect the 8805 to be functionally identical to the 8500.

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Hi,I tested gladiator and a lot more on my marantz sr 7010 and it Works flawless in 9.2.2! The wides are active all the time!

Gr Kurt
Thanks Kurt, good to know the people who tested this earlier weren't crazy! So that seems to confirm something has changed -- but my bet is still on it being a bug considering it works in 9.1.0 but not 9.1.2.

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Nor the RS20i and Marantz 7702mkII. Must have changed for current gen, or maybe just the D&M flagships.
Like I said, this really seems like a bug to me. I can't think of a good reason for this to be an intentional change.
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post #1846 of 2066 Old 05-27-2019, 12:03 AM
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Here is an interesting audio processor...

https://www.anthemav.com/products-cu.../page=overview


If I read it correctly, the Anthem D2V Statement processor seems to be able to take 5.1 analog inputs, digitize them and apply prologicIIx to it...

https://www.anthemav.com/downloads/d2v_manual.pdf

This means that hypothetically one could setup a D&M receiver in 7.1.4 with Wides instead of surround backs and expand it to 9.1.4.
The Atmos receiver would strip out the height channels from the base layer leaving a 5.1 analog source on its preouts which the Anthem D2V could expand it to 7.1 with prologicIIx. Of course there wouldn't be much point in sending it the subwoofer signal.

The bad part is that they still seem to cost more than an atmos AVR on ebay and it would also require an external 7 channel amplifier.
So it is basically just as expensive and worse than using a second Atmos AVR as everyone would have expected.

I bet that the delays are even bigger than scAtmos so it might be more than we could adjust out anyway.

But hey it "could" work...

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I think only the MC-12 does that. Doubt the others have 3 pairs of A-to-D converters.
Sanjay is right again. The MC-4/JBL AV-1 cannot digitize the 5.1 inputs.

So we have the Lexicon MC-12 and Anthem Statement D2V as SSPs that can digitize an analog 5.1 input and apply Pro Logic IIx processing (or L7) for 7.1 output. Are there any other processors with this capability to digitize a 5.1 analog input and apply PLIIx? Is there a JBL Synthesis version of the MC-12?
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post #1847 of 2066 Old 05-27-2019, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
MF’er, Josh is right. I just confirmed his result with my Denon 8500.

This definitely is NOT how it used to work. People were testing this thoroughly when DTS:X came out and it totally worked in 9.1.2.

So as JZ reported the wides do NOT play ANYTHING on the 8500 in 9.1.2 mode. I tested both disabling the back surrounds (7.1.2 or 7.1.4 with FW instead of SB) and the wides were super active. Interestingly the Neural:X parameter didn’t seem to have any effect at all.

I also tested 9.1.0 (heights totally disabled) and the wides lit up again. But in this Config the Neural:X parameter functioned, and the wides were silent with it turned off.

I assume this means with FW instead of SB the DTS:X algorithm “shifts” the surround content forward like Atmos to make use of the available speakers. So the wides are playing surround content whether or not you turn on the Neural:X parameter.

This thread is a great place to hash this out since there are a number of older models with wide support in use. Post Marantz 7010 / Denon 6200 the wides weren’t supported at all for a couple of years until they resurfaced on the 8500. So it’s entirely plausible something changed in the interim.

But it strikes me as a bug. There’s no reason the Neural:X expansion of DTS:X shouldn’t work on a 9.1.2 setup.

With the Custom amp assign mode I’m able to turn off all speaker outputs except the wides which makes this stuff easy to hear. The funny part is when I set the .2 as “Top Front” instead of “Front Height” the wides make some noises which clearly is due to the “leaking” to the base layer when they are labeled “Top” instead of “Front”. Switch to Front Height or Top Middle and no noise.

Even funnier / sadder is I was using a DTS:X demo disc and the clip was showing all these speakers and flashing marketing buzzwords like “flexible” and “immersive”. (Facepalm)

Man DTS is a mess 😞
This could very well be an issue with ADI's Griffin Lite implementation (SHARC+). The 4th-gen SHARCs (Lyngdorf MP-50) works same as the 2015 D&Ms.

Perhaps @deewan or another RMC-1 owner can test to see if this is a Griffin Lite issue. I will test the Bryston SP4 (StormAudio) which uses TI/MDS decoding (same as Acurus).
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post #1848 of 2066 Old 05-27-2019, 06:15 AM
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This could very well be an issue with ADI's Griffin Lite implementation (SHARC+). The 4th-gen SHARCs (Lyngdorf MP-50) works same as the 2015 D&Ms.

Perhaps @deewan or another RMC-1 owner can test to see if this is a Griffin Lite issue. I will test the Bryston SP4 (StormAudio) which uses TI/MDS decoding (same as Acurus).
Trying to play a little catchup here and figure out what exactly I should test....

If I am understanding this thread, we are wanting to test wha the RMC does with a DTS:X soundtrack and the front wides, and test when I turn the overhead speakers on/off?? Sorry, it's a long thread and I'm not 100% sure what was being asked of me, but I'm willing to help.

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post #1849 of 2066 Old 05-27-2019, 07:11 AM
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Trying to play a little catchup here and figure out what exactly I should test....

If I am understanding this thread, we are wanting to test wha the RMC does with a DTS:X soundtrack and the front wides, and test when I turn the overhead speakers on/off?? Sorry, it's a long thread and I'm not 100% sure what was being asked of me, but I'm willing to help.
We need you to set up the RMC-1 for 9.1.2, then play a DTS:X track and see if the wides are active in that setup.

On the old SR7010 they are active, on the new 8500H they are inactive. And of course on the Trinnov they are active.

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post #1850 of 2066 Old 05-27-2019, 07:50 AM
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We need you to set up the RMC-1 for 9.1.2, then play a DTS:X track and see if the wides are active in that setup.

On the old SR7010 they are active, on the new 8500H they are inactive. And of course on the Trinnov they are active.
Gotcha. I just tested. I used Jason Bourne UHD DTS:X. Unhooked all connections so I could focus on the wide connections. I moved my front pair of side surrounds (I have two pair of side surrounds) to the Left and Right wide connections on the RMC. I turned no the wide connections within the speaker presets. I watched 10 minutes of the motorcycle chase scene and didn't hear anything.

I also attempted to turn off the base level rear surrounds and the rear and front overhead speakers in a few different combinations to see if that would make the wides light up. I never heard anything.
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post #1851 of 2066 Old 05-27-2019, 09:31 AM
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Gotcha. I just tested. I used Jason Bourne UHD DTS:X. Unhooked all connections so I could focus on the wide connections. I moved my front pair of side surrounds (I have two pair of side surrounds) to the Left and Right wide connections on the RMC. I turned no the wide connections within the speaker presets. I watched 10 minutes of the motorcycle chase scene and didn't hear anything.

I also attempted to turn off the base level rear surrounds and the rear and front overhead speakers in a few different combinations to see if that would make the wides light up. I never heard anything.
That's..... odd. So you're saying the wides are NEVER active with DTS:X material on the RMC?

To summarize the situation on the X8500H quickly so you don't have to read through all of the above:

- DTS:X has a "Neural:X" parameter which allows it to use Neural:X upmixing to "spread" the 7.1.4 audio to other speakers, although because of the 11ch limit this would only be relevant if you're running a non-7.1.4 speaker layout (e.g. 9.1.2 or 5.1.6)

- When DTS:X first came out, people tested on Denon/Marantz models with Front Wide support and got audio on the wides with 9.1.2 and the Neural:X turned on

- The FW support disappeared for a few model cycles, then re-emerged with the Denon 8500 / Marantz 8805 sister models. But Josh Z just discovered (and I confirmed) that DTS:X played on a 9.1.2 layout doesn't light up the FW speakers regardless of whether the Neural:X parameter is turned on.

- If you try a 9.1.0 setup (no heights) then the Neural:X parameter functions as expected, ON = signal to FW speakers, OFF = silent FW speakers. But once a pair of heights are activated for 9.1.2 the FW speakers are silent (unless the .2 is Top Front, in which case you get some "leakage" to the base layer which is incidental to the issue under discussion).

Expected behavior would be that as long as you are within the 11ch limit, DTS:X should be able to route audio to any speaker in the layout.
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post #1852 of 2066 Old 05-27-2019, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
That's..... odd. So you're saying the wides are NEVER active with DTS:X material on the RMC?

To summarize the situation on the X8500H quickly so you don't have to read through all of the above:

- DTS:X has a "Neural:X" parameter which allows it to use Neural:X upmixing to "spread" the 7.1.4 audio to other speakers, although because of the 11ch limit this would only be relevant if you're running a non-7.1.4 speaker layout (e.g. 9.1.2 or 5.1.6)

- When DTS:X first came out, people tested on Denon/Marantz models with Front Wide support and got audio on the wides with 9.1.2 and the Neural:X turned on

- The FW support disappeared for a few model cycles, then re-emerged with the Denon 8500 / Marantz 8805 sister models. But Josh Z just discovered (and I confirmed) that DTS:X played on a 9.1.2 layout doesn't light up the FW speakers regardless of whether the Neural:X parameter is turned on.

- If you try a 9.1.0 setup (no heights) then the Neural:X parameter functions as expected, ON = signal to FW speakers, OFF = silent FW speakers. But once a pair of heights are activated for 9.1.2 the FW speakers are silent (unless the .2 is Top Front, in which case you get some "leakage" to the base layer which is incidental to the issue under discussion).

Expected behavior would be that as long as you are within the 11ch limit, DTS:X should be able to route audio to any speaker in the layout.

Ahh yes. I always forget about the 11 channel max count. I'll try testing again and make sure I am below the 11 channel count. I may not have gotten down to that earlier just turning off one pair of speakers here and there.

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post #1853 of 2066 Old 05-27-2019, 10:19 AM
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Situations like this make me so frustrated with the state of immersive audio. All this promise of scalable speaker layouts to accommodate high channel counts basically wasted. Especially with the Front Wide speakers, which have the most potential to add to the 7.1.4 layout but are worthless 95% of the time.

DTS basically sh&t the bed completely and hoped nobody would notice because they have a lot of fluffy marketing copy and very few people will have anything beyond 11 channels.

Atmos at least can scale, but a significant number of Atmos tracks either underutilize the wides or ignore them completely (and of course some of the latter won't scale at all being "fixed" mixes). And since arrays aren't supported for bed/channel content with home Atmos even someone with a Trinnov and extra side surrounds isn't going to benefit from spreading the sound out for multiple rows because only the primary "side surround" will be active most of the time.

DSU upmix ignores the wides, and Neural:X upmix is stuck at 11 channels.

So those of us with a 9.1.4+ layout basically run in 7.1.4 except for those occasions when we watch a good Atmos mix with very active use of objects in the ear level layer.

All of this makes me increasingly more interested in just dropping the SB channels in favor of a 5.1+FW base layer and adding a cheap used AVR to extract SB from the Surrounds. Then the FW will be much more active with a wider variety of content, and it's a pretty straightforward one-extra-box solution without the headaches of the dual HDMI AVR setup. But that also presents some issues. First, the SB will be dual-mono as you're pretty much stuck using a mono center extract like PLII. Also, in theory freeing up that pair of channels means I could run 7.1.6 on my X8500H and do a full 9.1.6 with the matrixed SB, but the 8500/8805 doesn't allow for a .6 overhead Atmos layer with no SB speakers.

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post #1854 of 2066 Old 05-27-2019, 10:20 AM
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Ok, I just found something else strange. First time I tested I had my front wides set to small and crossed at 40Hz. This time I set them to large and they began to get a VERY limited signal. But there was audio coming from the front wides. I turned off all overhead speakers to make sure the channel count fell below 11... that had no impact on the sound. I turned all the overhead speakers back on, essentially giving me a 9.1.6 setup and the front wides continues to play the same audio. Again, they only received a signal (or at least something I could hear) if they were set to large. The moment I switched them to small the audio quit.

One other thing to note, I've communicated with Emotiva before that it appears there is distortion in some of the overhead speakers when using Dolby Atmos. They have said they were unable to recreate it. But with this testing I was able to capture it on video. I have both the Emotiva RMC speaker preset menu pulled up as well as the Oppo "info" displayed.


First 30 seconds of the youtube clip the front wides are set to large. They do seem to only get a lower hz signal. If I set them to small, they do not play any audible sound.
0:30 The crackle sound begins.
0:39 The crackle returns, perhaps slightly louder than the first instance.

I have confirmed I am able to recreate the crackle at the same time stamps every time I watch the clip. And for what it is worth, this clip was recorded when I had all overhead speakers turned off. I had the same experience if I had the overheads speakers turned on.

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post #1855 of 2066 Old 05-27-2019, 10:22 AM
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LOL @ Emotiva

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post #1856 of 2066 Old 05-27-2019, 10:24 AM
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Sorry for the multiple posts. Here is a video showing the audible difference when switching between small and large settings on the front wides. There is audio when the front wides are set to large, but there isn't a lot of content. When set to small, there is no sound at all.


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post #1857 of 2066 Old 05-27-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Situations like this make me so frustrated with the state of immersive audio. All this promise of scalable speaker layouts to accommodate high channel counts basically wasted. Especially with the Front Wide speakers, which have the most potential to add to the 7.1.4 layout but are worthless 95% of the time.
I have no idea what makes you think wides have any great potential to add anything. Wides are fronts + sides. Stereo mains can already image in the exact vicinity with out-of-phase information. But ignore that and just combine fronts + sides and it will phantom in the exact same position. Wides are good for off-center seats that can't phantom image that location well (locks them down or at least improves them). I suppose if you had your wides in a position where they wouldn't naturally phantom image or your speakers don't image very well to begin with, they could make a real improvement for the MLP, but here when I used my 7010, the Atmos/X demos sounded them same with or without the wides turned on (in 9.1.2 versus 7.1.2) from the MLP.

Quote:
DTS basically sh&t the bed completely and hoped nobody would notice because they have a lot of fluffy marketing copy and very few people will have anything beyond 11 channels.
Given Atmos limitations, I don't know why you're so upset with DTS. This could be a simple bug/glitch they missed in the newer update cycle and will gladly fix if you make D&M and DTS aware of it. I'm also guessing DTS:X Pro will eliminate all these issues when it comes out some time this year. I don't know of any plans from Dolby to add wides support beyond direct soundtrack support (which often ignore wides making all those claims of 'object based' sounds seem kind of moot when they don't mix for them.

Atmos at least can scale, but a significant number of Atmos tracks either underutilize the wides or ignore them completely (and of course some of the latter won't scale at all being "fixed" mixes). And since arrays aren't supported for bed/channel content with home Atmos even someone with a Trinnov and extra side surrounds isn't going to benefit from spreading the sound out for multiple rows because only the primary "side surround" will be active most of the time.

Quote:
So those of us with a 9.1.4+ layout basically run in 7.1.4 except for those occasions when we watch a good Atmos mix with very active use of objects in the ear level layer.

All of this makes me increasingly more interested in just dropping the SB channels in favor of a 5.1+FW base layer and adding a cheap used AVR to extract SB from the Surrounds. Then the FW will be much more active with a wider variety of content, and it's a pretty straightforward one-extra-box solution without the headaches of the dual HDMI AVR setup. But that also presents some issues. First, the SB will be dual-mono as you're pretty much stuck using a mono center extract like PLII. Also, in theory freeing up that pair of channels means I could run 7.1.6 on my X8500H and do a full 9.1.6 with the matrixed SB, but the 8500/8805 doesn't allow for a .6 overhead Atmos layer with no SB speakers.
I'd wait and give DTS:X Pro a chance. Meanwhile, hybrid/matrix systems (homemade matrix/extraction or the Lyngdorf processor) don't have these issues at all. All my speakers work all the time save Auro-3D mode where my back bed rears don't work and in the (thankfully few) cases where "snap to" is enabled (I can think of two movies, Gravity and Hunter Killer, that use 'snap to' a lot and even if you have those speakers, they still don't phantom image as "snap to" prevents ALL phantom imaging when it's turned on from what I can hear. The sound snaps to the nearest speaker on a pan, which is both weird and awful, IMO.)

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post #1858 of 2066 Old 05-27-2019, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by deewan View Post
Sorry for the multiple posts. Here is a video showing the audible difference when switching between small and large settings on the front wides. There is audio when the front wides are set to large, but there isn't a lot of content. When set to small, there is no sound at all.

https://youtu.be/FjfKOEXtN00
I'm glad you were able to capture this on video. Sometimes you have to hold feet to the fire!
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I will test the Bryston SP4 (StormAudio) which uses TI/MDS decoding (same as Acurus).
The Bryston does not support 5.1 + Wides. You must build the base layer in this order: 5.1 -> Rear Surrounds -> Wides. Attached are all of the layouts with Wides currently supported in FW 3.4r2.
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post #1859 of 2066 Old 05-27-2019, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
- DTS:X has a "Neural:X" parameter which allows it to use Neural:X upmixing to "spread" the 7.1.4 audio to other speakers, although because of the 11ch limit this would only be relevant if you're running a non-7.1.4 speaker layout (e.g. 9.1.2 or 5.1.6)

- When DTS:X first came out, people tested on Denon/Marantz models with Front Wide support and got audio on the wides with 9.1.2 and the Neural:X turned on
When DTS:X first came out on Denon/Marantz models, configuring for 9.1.2 meant that the Front Wides always produced sound; if you turned the Neural:X extraction off, then the Wides got a copy of the Sides. They were never silent.

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post #1860 of 2066 Old 05-27-2019, 01:53 PM
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When DTS:X first came out on Denon/Marantz models, configuring for 9.1.2 meant that the Front Wides always produced sound; if you turned the Neural:X extraction off, then the Wides got a copy of the Sides. They were never silent.
I'm pretty sure that was 5.x.x that did that, not 9.x.x. If you turn off rear surrounds, front wides get a copy of the side surrounds and the rears get folded into the sides. Neural X does not copy sides to wides if you have rear surrounds enabled.

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